[Altered Melee] Medieval Strategy Overhaul

[Lasersquid112]

@UmbraUnda
I'll help you with items if you want me to. Here are some ideas for custom lord outfitting:
===
Armors:
Leather
Padded Leather
Reinforced Leather
Iron Mesh
Iron Plate
Reinforced Iron
===
Weapons:
Scimitar
Longsword
Crossbow
Broadsword
Swortsword
Longbow
===
Feel free to add more.

 

[UmbraUnda]

@UmbraUnda
I'll help you with items if you want me to. Here are some ideas for custom lord outfitting:
===
Armors:
Leather
Padded Leather
Reinforced Leather
Iron Mesh
Iron Plate
Reinforced Iron
===
Weapons:
Scimitar
Longsword
Crossbow
Broadsword
Swortsword
Longbow
===
Feel free to add more.

Nice, I already have those - although they are implemented in pre-built units instead of customized units via items. I feel if I allowed customization via items for heroes it would go against the tier system I already have in place + feels more like an RPG than RTS. Maybe if I made an RPG version of the map or perhaps in future everything will be customize-able with items for units and heroes. For now, I'm just gonna have consumable items like food and potions that restore HP or Mana.

 

[Lasersquid112]

Nice, I already have those - although they are implemented in pre-built units instead of customized units via items. I feel if I allowed customization via items for heroes it would go against the tier system I already have in place + feels more like an RPG than RTS. Maybe if I made an RPG version of the map or perhaps in future everything will be customize-able with items for units and heroes. For now, I'm just gonna have consumable items like food and potions that restore HP or Mana.

Oh, okay.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Oh, okay.

Thanks for the ideas! Can't believe I forgot about traps. I'll definitely get those implemented soon. Also if you have anymore ideas feel free to shoot them my way.

 

[Lasersquid112]

Thanks for the ideas! Can't believe I forgot about traps. I'll definitely get those implemented soon. Also if you have anymore ideas feel free to shoot them my way.

I will. Don't worry

 

[Lasersquid112]

Taxation/rationing system?

 

[UmbraUnda]

Yes. Y'know a lot of these are in Genesis of Empires 2. Have you ever played it? Might try looking at that map's triggers and implement them to mine if I can find an unprotected version of it. Or are there programs to unprotect a map?

 

[Hantoo]

Looks promosing,

 

[UmbraUnda]

Looks promosing,

Wow, to have a legend like you comment here is really something. So glad you like my project. Its a long way from being done however I feel it has a lot of potential given the new file size limit.

Btw, I'm using a bunch of your models. You have a lot of useful stuff - from the fire pit, stags, all the dogs & wolves, to your medieval ram model. I will give credit.

Also, can you animate or teach me to animate? I'm missing some spear thrust animations for the villager man model. Also the defend animations need updating - I don't want to ask too much of you but if you have the time this week or next week I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Hantoo]

Wow, to have a legend like you comment here is really something. So glad you like my project. Its a long way from being done however I feel it has a lot of potential given the new file size limit.

Btw, I'm using a bunch of your models. You have a lot of useful stuff - from the fire pit, stags, all the dogs & wolves, to your medieval ram model. I will give credit.

Also, can you animate or teach me to animate? I'm missing some spear thrust animations for the villager man model. Also the defend animations need updating - I don't want to ask too much of you but if you have the time this week or next week I'd really appreciate it.

thanks, glad you like my work, looking forward to your project, I really love this kind of map. A appear thrust should be ok, what kind of defend to be update? will probably try and do it this week, Holiday end next week.

 

[UmbraUnda]

thanks, glad you like my work, looking forward to your project, I really love this kind of map. A appear thrust should be ok, what kind of defend to be update? will probably try and do it this week, Holiday end next week.

Awesome! Thanks for the help. Nice - the thrust is already in channel animations however it also uses a downward chop so while it works for a lot of 2H weapons, the downward chop looks weird with a spear. So, maybe just use channel's thrust to start off, use another animation tag, and add a thrust variations or two. Unless you're pro and wanna do it from scratch haha - w.e you want tho. The defend animation works fine if the unit has no animations tag. With the alternate animation tag, for some reason when standing the defend animation goes away, then reappears when the unit is moving or attacking - maybe add a defend for alternate ? Or if there's a better way to solve that, lemme know.

Thanks, appreciate the help - you are in the loading screen credits.

 

[Lasersquid112]

Not to be a bitch, but when's the testable version coming? Anticipation is killing me D:

 

[UmbraUnda]

Not to be a bitch, but when's the testable version coming? Anticipation is killing me D:

Haha no worries. Very very soon. And its no longer just a test version - its the alpha version. I kept putting in work and now I got help from some other people so a lot more got implemented than I initially planned on having for the test map, so I feel comfortable calling it an alpha at this stage. I know the anticipation is quite a burden however everyday that you wait, this map just gets better so just have a little more patience. It'll be ready sometime next week.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Alright! Another good week of work. I can say for sure, the alpha will be ready next week. That's right - the alpha. I was originally planning on simply releasing a rough test map to test combat for balancing however the map has gone far beyond what I originally planned. This is all thanks to the wonderful people on Hive who help on the forums and or post resources.

So what's working? And what's still in the works...?

Implemented
-Complete overhaul of all WC3 features, units & buildings for a realistic Medieval setting. Bigger realistic map size, 4 players 480x480 Alpha -Map - Black Forest style terrain inspired from Northern Germany.
-Similar Features from WC3 Melee - Heroes, Creeps (Beware Creature & Bandit Ambushes), Nuetral Buildings (Fountain, Shop, Etc).
-Custom combat mechanics, customized units via series of custom attachments, 200+ Units & 100+ Structures
-50% of Abilities working - core abilities for units + standard unique set of 4 for each hero.
-Custom Proportional Pathing (Currently only 50% of buildings have correct pathing, other 50% will get done for the alpha)
-EVERYTHING UPGRADES - upgrade-able tiers for every single unit and nearly all structures.
-Upgrade System - Units must upgrade near their relevant structure. Example Cavalry upgrades at the Stables/ Ranged Units upgrade at the Archery Range, Most of the time its the same building they are trained from except certain units where it makes more sense, example pack horse -> trade cart - trained at market, upgrades at workshop.

Not Implemented
-Combat Experience System, Miss System, Bleeding Ability, + other 50% of abilities (mostly custom combat abilities)
-Spearman Animations for Cavalry and Infantry.
-Bowman Animations for Cavalry, Mount/Unmount System for Cavalry.
-Walkable Walls, Garrison System, Rotatable buildings, New Construction System, Army Formations, Custom Lighting, & more.
-Additional abilities & siege units for walkable walls.
-Custom Resources - Food (+ Farm Buildings, Fishing, Hunting, etc), Ore & Hides (Armor Crafting), Gold (Market, Trade), Clay, Water - more/less + More Buildings, Farming System, & Harvest-able Destructibles for those resources ^.

Even with all this stuff that needs to be done, enough is done for an Alpha release. While it lacks some of the bonus features that really make this project shine, the core features are there. Plus I have a couple people working on the main features that I want to implement, like Stronghold's walkable walls and Age of Empires II's rotatable buildings and garrison system - once those are working - BETA.

Also new stuff I added this week: New models for the dog and hound units all with TC. New T1 naval unit - Boatman - (Worker Boat) Simple villager on a rowboat who can fish and repair other ships. New model for all Light Cavalry that perfectly matches the animations of the Heavy Cavalry. Updated some terrain tilesets. Updated pathing for all structures and implemented wall/gate system.

 

[Lasersquid112]

Javelin Throwers
Slaves (weak-ass melee unit) (last resort) (worker(?))

Host Ability: When victory is declared, the host can use a nuke. Map explodes. GG WP. (;p

 

[Emm-A-]

Hi there, I would like to say that this looks pretty cool. I really love all the details and effort you put in there already. Good luck with this!

 

[UmbraUnda]

Javelin Throwers
Slaves (weak-ass melee unit) (last resort) (worker(?))

Host Ability: When victory is declared, the host can use a nuke. Map explodes. GG WP. (;p

Already have those - Spear Throwers - tanky ranged unit with a shield. Based off of the Age of Empires Skirmisher.

Slaves - hmm those aren't too European Medieval really - more so Arabic, especially for that time. Also no real need for it.

Lol... cmon man. Cute but unnecessary.

Hi there, I would like to say that this looks pretty cool. I really love all the details and effort you put in there already. Good luck with this!

Thanks very much. I'm glad you like it! Its a long way from done but it has potential to be really fun while incorporating features from the best RTS medieval games out there.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Another week - unfortunately school was very busy this week with homework and tests, leaving little time for me to wrap up work for the Alpha. Sorry to keep you all waiting, still - just know you'll be playing soon, probably by this weekend if school eases up to it's regular routine.

The Alpha is SO close to being done, I just gotta finish tweaking some of the data fields now. The reason these data fields take so much work is because of the 250+ units, 100+ buildings, and 150 + upgrades - so it's a loooooot of data fields to fill out and tweak for balance.

Thanks to everyone who supports this project - to all those waiting, I promise you'll be playing soon, just have patience.

 

[Lasersquid112]

No problem, man! I'll keep waiting as long as it needs to be for.

 

[Lord_Marrowgrath]

480x480 isnt too big for 4 players? We will control thousand of units? It will be epic.

 

[Lasersquid112]

Sir, you shit me not

 

[UmbraUnda]

No problem, man! I'll keep waiting as long as it needs to be for.

Thank you for your patience, mate.

480x480 isnt too big for 4 players? We will control thousand of units? It will be epic.

480 x 480 feels like 2-3 miles between each player in relation to unit scale, so for 4 players it works well and feels realistic + eliminates the zerg rush strategy xD. Also you need some room for city building/castle building. Well, not 1000's - I was thinking 300-400, 500 tops. Rome Total War has 1000's because you got an army from entire countries - however in this game you have an army from just your one city. Yes, epic indeed- especially when its closer to being done, with more implemented game features, different types of maps, maybe an HD overhaul eventually and more.

 

[Xonok]

The game can reasonably handle up to 100 moving units per player. 500 would mean that ranged units can never be attacked with a similarly sized army, because the attackers will lose most of their speed to stuttering.

 

[UmbraUnda]

The game can reasonably handle up to 100 moving units per player. 500 would mean that ranged units can never be attacked with a similarly sized army, because the attackers will lose most of their speed to stuttering.

Thanks for the reminder. I noticed that happen on some older games however I think it's fixable if you address memory leaks. That should make things interesting during testing xD, haha - but I hope it works fine. Otherwise I'm gonna have to find a way around that...

 

[Xonok]

Actually it has nothing to do with memory leaks. It's just that when you give a unit an order it doesn't actually start moving. It has to be given sub-orders by the game.
The way it works is that each suborder is only a small distance and each player gives about 30 of those per second. The more units you have, the more time between suborders.
Usually it takes a couple seconds for a suborder to be finished, so this gives you the 100 unit figure. If by that time the game is not ready to give the next suborder the unit will simply wait.

Memory leaks just slow down the game and when the game's allocated memory runs out it will crash.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Actually it has nothing to do with memory leaks. It's just that when you give a unit an order it doesn't actually start moving. It has to be given sub-orders by the game.
The way it works is that each suborder is only a small distance and each player gives about 30 of those per second. The more units you have, the more time between suborders.
Usually it takes a couple seconds for a suborder to be finished, so this gives you the 100 unit figure. If by that time the game is not ready to give the next suborder the unit will simply wait.

Memory leaks just slow down the game and when the game's allocated memory runs out it will crash.

o0o0o Ok. Thanks for explaining that. Is there any way around that for more units? Or a trigger that can ease the stuttering?

 

[Xonok]

There is no sensible way to break this limit. Instead it's recommended to just not have too many units.
You can maybe somewhat mitigate it if you consider what the problems are. Although the suborder thing is awful, it is made much more awful if units bump into each other, as that makes them stop.
When a unit bumps into another it loses its mini-order and will have to be given another by the game, thus making the problem worse.
The speed doesn't break down immediately when you go over 100. 200 is doable too, your units will just respond slower and lose some speed.
However, the more moving units you have the more all of them will lose speed.
I'd say the best thing you can do here is just testing it personally. See how many units your game can handle without losing too much, just keep in mind that only moving units count.

 

[UmbraUnda]

There is no sensible way to break this limit. Instead it's recommended to just not have too many units.
You can maybe somewhat mitigate it if you consider what the problems are. Although the suborder thing is awful, it is made much more awful if units bump into each other, as that makes them stop.
When a unit bumps into another it loses its mini-order and will have to be given another by the game, thus making the problem worse.
The speed doesn't break down immediately when you go over 100. 200 is doable too, your units will just respond slower and lose some speed.
However, the more moving units you have the more all of them will lose speed.
I'd say the best thing you can do here is just testing it personally. See how many units your game can handle without losing too much, just keep in mind that only moving units count.

Thanks again for explaining all that info. Alright, that's good - I thought it was all units for a second. If its just moving units, I don't think more than 200 at a time would be moving, unless you're moving your whole army and village population. And for battles no more than 100-150 so hopefully it won't stutter too much. True, gotta do some testing - only way to find out for sure. Also that # limit is for the whole map or each player?

 

[Xonok]

Per player, luckily.

 

[UmbraUnda]

YESSSSSS - alright good, I'm relieved. Thanks again for all the info!

 

[Xonok]

Personally I would put the food limit at 10x12=120. Why? Because that's the maximum amount of units you can have in control groups.

 

[UmbraUnda]

That's way too small... btw I'm working on an army control system that will make moving hundreds of troops much easier. Have you ever played age of empires ii? I'm thinking 50 workers, then 200 army more or less, so I'm thinking 300 - age of empires is about the same in most online games I play on Steam.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Alright - another week. So, school is still really busy so I can't get as much done as I'd like to - thus I'm pushing the release of the Alpha another week.
Still , a lot more work got done and its that much closer to being playable.

Here's some updates of stuff that got done this week.

-Terrain 60% done ; New terrain tiles, Added bandit camps and wild animals.
-Overhaul of all icons (Thanks @Eagle XI for all the custom building icons)
-Added construct-able bridges that allow units to move past rivers [Wooden Bridge, Stone Bridge, & Draw Bridge (Draw Bridge not working yet) ]
-Unit, Building, & Upgrade Descriptions 75%
-Removed Siege Unit: Balloon
-Abilities for Units and Buildings 50% (Some won't be done for the Alpha because they require complex triggering, still I'll get as much as I can implement)

What needs to be done for the Alpha?

-Finish Terrain (Some parts will still be rough and lack pretty doodads however it'll be playable and look decent)
-Finish all Data Fields (Missing: Damage, Attack Speed, Upgrade Amounts, Double Check Balance)
-Update Stone Gathering Trigger to have upgrade-able carry amounts (Need someone's help for this, might post on the forums later)
-Add movement triggers that slow down units based on terrain [Example: Water (-50%), Mountain (-25%) ] ("")

 

[Xonok]

I can give some advice on the terrain speed thing.
What I did was hook up a unit indexer so that I would have an array of all mobile units in the game(max speed over 0).
Then I loop over that array 32 times per second. I set a variable to the default movespeed of each unit in the array, then do various changes to it based on terrain.
Right now the things affecting speed are water and height. Units moving in water are slowed by 50% if they can move on land.
I also check the terrain Z below each unit every time and based on this I know if units are moving uphill or downhill. The more they move up in height, the slower they are. Moving downhill has the opposite effect, but overall hills tend to decrease average speed. Still, the way I did it gives lots of interesting implications. Attacking downhill is devastating, but leaves you with a weaker ability to escape if things go wrong. Attacking uphill is hard, but once you are on top of a hill you have pretty good defense.

Now with all this out of the way I have to remind again that I don't code for other people's projects, so this will remain advice only.
If you want a system of this kind you have to consider the impact to performance.
The way I do it will definitely lag the game after around 1000 units and on weaker computers probably sooner.(I don't know because my laptop is ridiculously powerful)
If you check terrain less often you will have it less inaccurate, so what matters now is:
*How do you define the things that affect speed? If you use tiles and pathing, it will inevitably be expensive. If you use regions it will be faster, but you can't define it as accurately.
*How often do you periodically check, if at all? If you use enter/leave region events it might not be necessary to check periodically, but it will take more effort to set up.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Hmm, sounds like your know how to get it done.

Still, I'm not to well verses in all this so I'm a bit confused at some terms - unit indexer? array?
Can you post an example or screenshot of the trigger? Or is this jazz?

Is there a way to change it from moving uphill/downhill to a simple flat rate reduction in higher elevations?
O0o0o I like that idea about attacking uphill/downhill - let's keep that.

Aw really? Well, I'm terrible with triggering, so you might have to walk me through it or I'll have no idea what to do and which triggers to use.
Hmm 1000 units in the game or 1000 units affected by the trigger?

Regions? So I'd have to pre-define every region of water and mountain in the map? Hmm that's tough cause regions are kinda big and you can't get 45 degree angles.
Honestly the trigger could work with terrain tiles types- mountain and water. (Wait is water a terrain tile type or is there a way to define it?)

Thanks, appreciate the help.

 

[Xonok]

A unit indexer detects when a unit appears or disappears from the entire map. It also gives each unit a unique number that you can use as an array index.
Arrays are just chains of variables where each variable is identified by a number. That number is called the array index.
My system is in JASS, yes.
A flat speed increase/decrease would be essentially the same. Even easier. I just prefer having speed change smoothly.
1000 units affected. The exact number really depends on how good the computer is too.
I don't really want to walk you through it, as that would essentially be the same as writing it myself, but several times the effort.
Regions would be more efficient overall. Considering how many units you intend to have, efficiency seems like it would be important.
I detect water by testing pathing. There is a function in GUI that can check any point for any kind of pathing. Since I want sea units to move at full speed except in shallow water I test for both walkability and floatability. If the point allows both, then I reduce speed, but not otherwise.

 

[UmbraUnda]

A unit indexer detects when a unit appears or disappears from the entire map. It also gives each unit a unique number that you can use as an array index.
Arrays are just chains of variables where each variable is identified by a number. That number is called the array index.
My system is in JASS, yes.
A flat speed increase/decrease would be essentially the same. Even easier. I just prefer having speed change smoothly.
1000 units affected. The exact number really depends on how good the computer is too.
I don't really want to walk you through it, as that would essentially be the same as writing it myself, but several times the effort.
Regions would be more efficient overall. Considering how many units you intend to have, efficiency seems like it would be important.
I detect water by testing pathing. There is a function in GUI that can check any point for any kind of pathing. Since I want sea units to move at full speed except in shallow water I test for both walkability and floatability. If the point allows both, then I reduce speed, but not otherwise.

Nice, this all sounds great and workable for my map - I just don't know how to write Jass or trigger very well so I may need you to help me out or I'll be stuck until I find someone else. Let me know if you change your mind about helping code other people's projects - especially if it's simple and easily doable, however if its complicated and a lengthy process I totally get why you don't help other people's projects.

EDIT: Can you just show me a tutorial of how to do this?

 

[UmbraUnda]

Messing around with a city layout. Things are coming together... Alpha soon.

 

[A]mun]

^^This reads like a diary, but on topic:

It's obvious you put some real thought and effort into this already, so a small suggestion would be to keep it simple at first = flesh out the core game you had in mind when you started this project.

Anyway, one more interested hiver here!

 

[UmbraUnda]

Another week come and gone. School is still piling on more homework - thus I wasn't able to finish.
However, now it's SO CLOSE to being done.



This week - I pretty much finished terrain, some places are rough and lacking doodads. It's in the roughs, still it works. I'll make it detailed and pretty later on.
Also got the stone gathering trigger fixed, special thanks to @Assassins-Creed .

Some things like the movement system (based on terrain types) and all the other systems will have to wait until I get a legit triggerer/coder to help me out.



All that left to be done are Data Fields: Damage, Descriptions, Some Abilities, & Double Check everything for balance.

So with that, I can confidently say NEXT WEEK 100% for sure this project's Alpha will be ready for testing!
Then once testing confirms its playable I'll upload to MakeMeHost and EntGaming so anyone can play.

 

[UmbraUnda]

To all those patiently awaiting me to release something you can play - the Alpha is just yonder the horizon.

I feel it can be released in its current state within a few more days of work. It's quite rough, although playable with most core features working.

All that needs finishing is damage amounts + dice (25% done), Unit Descriptions (50% done), Abilities (25% done), and Terrain (50% done).
I also want to add - Abilities and Terrain will not get 100% done. At this current stage its only half working. Many game features have yet to be implemented and many abilities are broken or haven't been implemented yet mainly because I'm lacking in the trigger/vJASS department. Terrain is completely missing pathing and terrain movement factors + its just roughed out, the land needs smoothing & variation plus doodads have yet to be added to most of the map.

It's still an exciting and entertaining play - satisfaction guaranteed. The core features such as stone/wood resource system, custom damage/armor type mechanics, Altered wc3 Hero system + creeps (bandits and beasts), Upgrade-able everything (100's of upgrades), and 100's of units and buildings for diverse armies and massive cities.

Soon I'll upload a map to makemehost and entgaming that we can test for balancing, general critique, and an epic medieval RTS experience.

 

[Nordmar]

you really should stop saying that you are going to release it in the next couple of days over and over again. You said this already weeks ago and everytime you postpone it. Just finish the work and upload when it's ready ^^

 

[Xonok]

I don't think is something to get mad about. I actually got the same feel that Nordmar did. You have certainly said many times that it's soon. I don't mean that as critique though.

 

[Xonok]

I don't think there is anything to defend him for. Anyone can join any topic at any time and this is perfectly fine. Being a bit harsh is also perfectly fine if there is a reason, but no one in this topic has been anywhere near it. We only say what we think.
I think you're just talking it more personally than he or I thought and as a result got offended when no offense was intended.

 

[UmbraUnda]

FINALLY - the alpha is ready for testing!

Please reply if you're interested in testing sometime this weekend.

 

[TheFrenchLeprechaun]

Yay! Félicitations!

I will test it for sure! But I don't think I'll have the time this week end to test it in multiplayer. If it finally occurs the next week end, maybe I'll have more free time

 

[UmbraUnda]

Thanks mate. We'll get our mutual tests done eventually xD - next weekend hopefully.

 

[UmbraUnda]

I've received enough replies from (ironically) other sites, TY brigands and diplo-ers. Test Group for this weekend is full.
If you'd like to test next week or be put on standby, let me know.

Soon, I'll have the file posted in the Maps section + MMH & Ent.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Alright, with the extra time I implemented and fixed many abilities however not all abilities are working yet or are implemented.

Currently doing the finishing touches to terrain.

File will be uploaded to HIVE, ENT, & MMH tonight. Test will be tomorrow around noon USA Eastern time zone.

 

[UmbraUnda]

Here's the Alpha - it's far from perfect however its in a solid playable state. Enjoy and please give feedback.

MedievalStrategyOverhaul_v0.1a