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Hive Workshop Cup Melee Mapping Contest - Results

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So can someone official (@Landmine) please make any announcement regarding the contest, the winners, the scores, new info, etc.? :) I think we deserve some information, given that the situation around the contest has evolved so much. If we don't have the results figured out as of this moment, then at least tell us you are working on the issue. Feels kinda weird to be informed about stuff by the contest participants, erm.

@WolfFarkas Thanks for sharing! Feels great to see some of our maps being played ^^
 
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Wayshan said:
So can someone official (@Landmine) please make any announcement regarding the contest, the winners, the scores, new info, etc.? :) I think we deserve some information, given that the situation around the contest has evolved so much. If we don't have the results figured out as of this moment, then at least tell us you are working on the issue. Feels kinda weird to be informed about stuff by the contest participants, erm.

@WolfFarkas Thanks for sharing! Feels great to see some of our maps being played ^^
Click to expand...

REMODEDMO did an anouncement he will do a text review of the maps.

It will take some time, so lets wait for it.
 
Yeah, which I didn't mention, cause it already was on display, it's my map and most importantly, @JaleVeliki keeps trash talk about the map whenever he can. Here and on the Twitch streams. Putting on some astounding constructive criticism such as telling others that the map "is boring".

:peasant-thinking:
 
Wayshan said:
Yeah, which I didn't mention, cause it already was on display, it's my map and most importantly, @JaleVeliki keeps trash talk about the map whenever he can. Here and on the Twitch streams. Putting on some astounding constructive criticism such as telling others that the map "is boring".

:peasant-thinking:
Click to expand...

I dont know what was talked on Twitch,,, and if I would, I better not bring it here.



What Happens in Twich stay in Twich, whats happens in the hive, lets stay in the hive.
so the Hive stuff.


So the Hive episode: @JaleVeliki did a discharge, @Nudl9 discouraged the way he posted, and the topic ended there with @Nudl9 doing wise comments..

@Wayshan , to me seems pointless to bring the Twich issue here, moderators cant moderate what happened on Twich. And start a discussion in the Hiveworkshop about what happened on Twich, doesnt seems something that can be solved here.

also I saw many times Trash talk on Twich, sorry, but it doesnt surprise me.

So a change of topic??

I like the enviroment of your map, the towers stuff you used, very clever.

upload_2019-10-15_23-52-30.png


I love dawning fall, I regret not voting it, my apology to @Isaak for not seeing it more deep,
 
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I am not demanding any kind of moderation from the admins. But I can't just stand and listen to someone trash talking other people's work, for no other reason than to hurt them & their work. I haven't been silent about the issue regarding Anomines and I am certainly not gonna be silent about attacks on my work either. All I am trying to is to point out is how arrogant can some people be. Try to imagine how you would feel over someone constantly trash-talking you and your work. Kinda spoils the fun when you see that in the chat of the event which is hosted by Hive and it's called Hive tournament. That isn't some stuff that's unrelated to this community. Anyways, not gonna poke into it more ^^

As for your comment, I have a similar feeling. I wish I had some spare moments when the poll was open.
 
@Nudl9 /This.

@Wayshan To give you another perspective, I also got 'kinda disappointed' when I saw the reviews. The reason being: seeing 0 (zero) critique/feedback on the matter with only some incoherent thoughts in its place. Since this was my primary goal for the contest, it burned. It burned being invested in something for quite a while and only seeing white noise at the end. I understand everyone else's feelings firsthand, since I share them.

However there's nothing to still be bitter about. Really, there was no ill-will attempted on behalf of organisers and judges. Just a time trouble and a delusional person trying to be in charge. Tell me if it's the first time you've encountered something like this, come on.

But there's one thing that seemingly escaped everyone's attention as they were busy with their personal resentments. And it's really a shame.
Get well soon, @eubz! If not for the health issues, your review would be instrumental to this contest as a whole. Alas!

One last thing to clarify, @Wayshan. The issue with Anomines isn't the same as attacks on your work. As in you can't compare an unjust disqualification with a negative comment.
All I am trying to is to point out is how arrogant can some people be.
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You know this is not true. You're trying to defend yourself. And that's fine. If you think that @JaleVeliki offended you, hold him accountable then. I'm not telling you to scream vengeance, though, just ask him here or in private about what is up.

Even without pulling Twitch chat, which tends to be impulsive and edgy by nature, there's this post in the previous page to which you haven't answered.
JaleVeliki said:
Out of all this drama, my biggest question and disappointment in the finality of this situation is: why Northwatch Hold?

Affinity for Sunken temple tileset and mediocre maps? Has anyone ever taken the time to check distances and shapes? Do people understand good aesthetics? What are those innovations on this map that we haven't seen before? Can someone make me a list so that I can understand?
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And if there's nothing to answer, then there's something to learn. And hurt feelings.. can't really be an argument, sorry.
 
@Wayshan

I didn't catch time yesterday, but I am working on a longer review of the map Northwatch Hold (visual arguments incoming) to point out what can be improved on the map, and why such map (regardless of author) - is NOT ready for competitive play. The main reason behind my salty approach is not because much, much better executed and thought-out maps ended up not being in the tourney, but because a map with many problems did and pros played on it. FOR MONEY.

Don't get me wrong, it has potential and is actually better than about 60% of contest entries, and I'm not even going to review subjective things such as texture/tileset or doodad choice and color; but fundamental features every competitive map has to have in order to be cup/ladder ready, such as: no wisp spots, enabled aow creeping and tree expand, somewhat symmetric buildable space for both players, map borders, mini-map readability, intuitive layout, fair layout, fair creep routes, no aggro while passing, choke widths similar to current ladder maps... and some of the things we'd very much love to see such as: creatively executed visual theme, no visual obstructions or distractions, creeps and visuals that fit the theme....

Other finalists do all of those things properly, and 5-6 maps that were placed lower than finalist do them better than Northwatch Hold. That is the main reason. Had there been multiple judges as previous contests, the result would show itself without me engaging, we just need more judges!

EDIT: The reason I'm displaying my opinions publicly is because people are afraid to criticize or start a discussion over it, and I saw none of mapmakers and previous judges daring to comment something about this map - so I'm starting it, regardless of contest results.
 
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@Kerael I think @deepstrasz pretty much answered it for me. I had issues with the style of Jale's comments and the fact he just attacks the map in the chat just embarrasses me and provides me with no actual way of defending myself. Which is why I posted it here. And of course, I already approached Jale by PM. Also, Anomines and I have completely different issues of course. I was just pointing out that when I see something which I disagree with, I don't walk away. In this broad perspective, we fit both into the same category.

As for Jale's earlier post, I hope you are not serious about that. And if so, read it again and pay attention to Jale's criticisms. F. e.: mediocre map and poor aesthetics. How exactly am I supposed to react to that in a constructive fashion, lol.

Once again, I don't call for anything here. I just wanted to mention it and say I disagree with this kind of behavior in general, in any group of people, in any kind of interaction. So basically, you don't need to do anything.

@JaleVeliki Man, the map is imperfect, has many flaws, I am well aware of that. Please, by all means. If you have constructive criticism, let me know and I will be super happy to read it and learn from it. Saying that you don't personally like visuals, style of the map, that it's confusing for you, that's it's boring, that it's unfair, those are all just attacks to me. This is what you did here and on Twitch.

So again. Please, let me know what I can and should improve, and I will gladly accept the advice. If you would have done so earlier, we wouldn't need to have this stupid discussion and we might have been already focusing on the flaws of the map.

But as long as you will attack my work and insult my efforts with no other reason than to just humiliate or just mock the effort I've invested into it, I have no place for your ill comments.
 
I apologize if style turned out to be overly harsh and was deemed insulting. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and wanted to spark a discussion over it with my quick, hasty thoughts. Much more constructive criticism is on the way (but takes time)!

I encourage others to join the discussion as well. I'd love to hear multiple opinions to conclude if I'm terribly wrong with my statement.

EDIT: Statement: Northwatch Hold in its current form isn't a map ready for competitive play but was allowed on a tourney, unlike many other overlooked maps in the contest that execute given guidelines (balance+art+innovation) better.
 
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@Svetli On the first post of this thread. Everything you can find is an official review.

@Wayshan I am serious. And I've read it a couple of times before quoting. And yes, I count some of the questions quoted as reasonable. Some is enough.

You get too emotional about it, that's the thing. And I understand you, seeing your work get shat on is a rough experience. Nudl9 gave you the best advice for this case.
You see, as long as you only see the words but not the meaning and reason behind them, you will always feel attacked for whatever reason. You gotta understand that there's a message trying to manifest itself out of what people say about your work. It may be unclear, the form might be raw, but the fact is there.
How exactly am I supposed to react to that in a constructive fashion, lol.
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Level-headedly. You provide a material basis for the answer to objective questions, such as wisp-spot numbers, expansion/traversal timings, innovations etc. And you may deflect the subjective questions since they can't have a universal answer (unless your creative designs obstruct the gameplay and whatnot). In all honesty, if you think that you are left optionless in defending yourself, that in itself speaks something.

And regarding the 'image' of your melee map being damaged, I have to say that there's only one image: the minimap image. If it raises questions, there should be an answer. And if there are no answers, then who knows, maybe it's damaged fairly.

edit: Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't end up in this ugly situation of judging each other and whatnot, if not for the known reasons, yet here we are. No offense.
 
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JaleVeliki said:
EDIT: The reason I'm displaying my opinions publicly is because people are afraid to criticize or start a discussion over it, and I saw none of mapmakers and previous judges daring to comment something about this map - so I'm starting it, regardless of contest results.
Click to expand...


JaleVeliki said:
I encourage others to join the discussion as well. I'd love to hear multiple opinions to conclude if I'm terribly wrong with my statement.

EDIT: Statement: Northwatch Hold in its current form isn't a map ready for competitive play but was allowed on a tourney, unlike many other overlooked maps in the contest that execute given guidelines (balance+art+innovation) better.
Click to expand...

, You could explain your points more and avoid silly words as: boring, mediocre, .


Note: I was holding myself all this time, but Jale has casted an overall summon. Twice. I am a UWBYA an Ugly Wolf that will Bite You All. @JaleVeliki fault for summon me.

Northwatch Hold:
-walking distances seems long, that may affect: early pvp, Tier 1-Tier2 rush, creep hacking, overall manuver.
-Favours TIER 3 hold and later push, And Air Forces will have more manuver in a big map than land forces.Favours PVE (Probably what Jale wanted to say when he only said it was boring).
- Corners are not a good place for mines. Corners are places where you dont want be (much time).
Ideal for fountains or marketplaces to visit with the hero alone, or creep fast.
(edit:saw the play orc vs ne, ne expanded silently to corner, orc figure out scouting. NE teleport, try to defend, very far away from base to be able to send reinforcements, NE retreated(walking) and mine lost. I wouldnt expand there first, hard to defence). In fact NE was having advantage first and that turned the tide.)
-Bases shape seems not-orthodox for 1v1.
-Corner mines have different shape. (cliff south, arch way north).

edit:forget all what I said before,I saw a play NE vs Orc. NE cleared center edge mine, went to build. and the tortoise level 7 from other camp agro the building. So while NE lost the building and was figthing the creep, orcs went to attack the base, that bug is very important..

Imagine players are having an equally match until one of the players loose the townhall in that way. Is not fair to loose the gold of your tree of life or necropolis.
By fortune ORC player had clear advantage before that, so the game can be validated.

you cant have such creep near a mine.
upload_2019-10-17_1-12-20.png


Uther Slumber:
- Those expandings are hard. And the play I saw prove them, you wont expand to the near tavern mines, near edge mines are more safe. In NE vs UD, NE harrased UD. NE can have the wisp protected, the other races not. If I am UD, HU or ORC against NE (I would try to veto that map first). (seems a nice map for NE VS NE).
-Map follows twistead meadow mines open recipe (more open actually) wich in NE vs HU, HU has 42% winning rate (the other plays have more fair statistics). So perhaps wouldnt try a recipe (very open expandings) that is already used to be veto-and hated by HU players.
- Chance of creep aggro, agresive creeps, bad for scouting.

Brigthwater Oasis:
-You can buy in the shops from behind, and put a serpent ward from above, and who knows what other crayzy stuff. And you have to figure it out, I dont remember that trick in orthodox plays.
-Those red creep expandings in cliff are un-confortable to play.
-The random-spawn buildings may be a dislike to those who like to perfectly memorice/practice the map for a top match (consider that you have to practice/memorice many maps). So is a so-so thing. Ideal to have fun.

Gold Port:
-No trees near tavern, needed for KOG, and NE scouts.
-To much unbuildable tiles in the center path.
- AOW in goblin shop. and then what, leave there?, I cant fortify the area with 2 towers?, Also have the AOW there hard to defend, no near place to move it. . Seems to have 1 path aligned with the 2 shops with the tavern, so that path is the main for both players, is not that good idea for NE play (I could imagine a NE veto).
- Deep water seems nice, but IMO, it just cut manuver, more paths game-play. Like shops could have a different path.
- Goblin lab, chance of aggresive creeps.
-Green creeps near corner mines, should be orange, after creeping the 2 near base, a 3rd far green doesnt worth the time in a competitive play.
-for a map that it seems was rushed to reach deadline, is a good one.

Rivulet:
-Already said the pond in the middle (may affect land manuver).
-I think LS merc. camps are more needed than gob. labs. Troll priest for Tier1 healing. An orc strategy is to leave damaged grunts in base, so the troll priest is very handfull.
-You cant farm/tower scout the goblin merchants, but NE can owl scout.

Ruins of Azhara:
- I wouldnt use the rune of the watcher. Mana fountains alone is already a rare thing in a map.
-Merc. camps should be in buildable areas. IMO, I like fortify a merc. camp, with 1 AOW and 1-2 towes, and play guerrilla- scatered warfare. (I remembered Orange played that way, with hidden bases. And he survived a HU harras thanks to his scattered play until HU exhausted his gold.) Thats why I dislike shallow water and unbuildable tiles in neutral buildings areas as a first view.
-I do really hate this map because I dont know other balance issues, and I have a lot of envy to this map, with more balance issues, I would not feel envy.

@JaleVeliki , while I do agree with many questions/things you mentioned, I think it would have been fair and less ugly to talk about all the maps flaws and not just focus in Northwatch Hold isolated case (many times).
 
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So, a lot has happened. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about some events.
I dont want to adress all the issues, at least not now. Just a few:

Old maps being allowed in this contest:

Obviously I benefitted from this decision. Still, I feel I took a minor risk, as while my map was previously known from being played in the hi2chaco league, it did not do too well in the previous contest for which I had originally made it.
Normally, the hiveworkshop only allows submissions which are made during while the contest is running. If we accept that this contest was running on short notice and with just 2 (?) weeks to make maps, I believe that this was a good decision as a consequence:
-For me personally, I'm a notoriously slow mapper, and I know that many other people in the scene are (like me) having full time jobs. I would not be able to complete a map in 2 weeks with the level of quality I'd like to have. So I would not have been able to participate if I would not be allowed to submit and old map. I suppose many other participants were in a comparable situation.
-I believe it benefitted the overall quality of maps submitted.
-It was a chance to give exposure to good older maps that would otherwise never have gotten such a chance.


The contest being organized on short notice and with just 2 weeks running.

Well, ideally there would be more time. But I'm just assuming there was a good reason for it. And after all, why should every contest follow the same rules? On the upside, the results were out really quick (disregarding what happened after that), and I think that's something every participant will like.


The "wrong" maps won!

Well, as a matter of fact, there are different opinions what a map should be like and imho all of them have a point to some degree.
My personal opinion is that a good new map should first and foremost be balanced. However it should also not be only balanced, but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique.

Regarding my opinion on the individual maps, I'll have to moderate all of the contest maps anyway, so I will post a review/some short notes anyway while doing do over the next days (or weeks, as many melee maps have accumulated during this contest).
 
@mafe ""but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique"".

This is really one statemaent that i realy cant hear anymore (no offence)
Im mostly a melee player and just make maps cuz there just arent many good ladder maps. Everyone thinks he is the next special snowflake and needs to bring something new. Guys the game is 17 years old and is figgured out. its a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps. We meele players just want some different maps with new layout but no extra special creeps with sleep or whatever. Its already really really hard to make a map thats balanced for all matchups and we just want options
 
SayuriTenshi said:
@mafe ""but also give players new challenges or offer something new/unique"".

This is really one statemaent that i realy cant hear anymore (no offence)
Im mostly a melee player and just make maps cuz there just arent many good ladder maps. Everyone thinks he is the next special snowflake and needs to bring something new. Guys the game is 17 years old and is figgured out. its a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps. We meele players just want some different maps with new layout but no extra special creeps with sleep or whatever.
and we just want options
Click to expand...

Wise reflection. Just wanted to say that.

And I wanted to say that, mmm, well perhaps some maps scores should be re-evaluated: Northwatch Hold mostly since is a winner map, and well I agree with @JaleVeliki that there are more balanced maps that deserve to be winners.

About the score of my map (52 of REMODEMO) I agree with it, I think it shoudnt change. And I would like to say that somehow I didnt follow a melee rule for 1v1 wich is , have mandatory 2 goblin merchants.
I didnt know it till today (I received feedback, I asked feedback during the mapping time), I wouldnt risk to ignore something like that.

So the thing (I didnt know) is posted in @Anomines changelog update of Swamped Temple. Somehow I wanted to do a map like that and Northrend Isles.
But I followed the old Swamped temple, and didnt read the changelog or download the update (of 2019 march) with the 2 shops thing. My bad for being not updated with the info.

"Lvl 15 Marketplace with lvl 4 Furbolg Shaman, lvl 6 Furbolg Tracker and lvl 4 Furbolg now moved to the middle of the map. The marketplace is replaced by a second shop due to balancereasons and the creeps are replaced with 2 lvl 5 Ogre Maules and a lvl 5 Renegade Wizard. Items stay the same."

-So sorry for the 2 shops laking.
-And sorry for the rushed crayzy creeps (I didnt want to steal others recipes so I did my best to do new balanced recipes).
 
WolfFarkas said:
And I would like to say that somehow I didnt follow a melee rule for 1v1 wich is , have mandatory 2 goblin merchants.
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This is more of an unspoken rule. The more you know, I guess. I believe, some updates are in order! :)
By the way I really liked your mixed Merc Camps, very nice touch!

While we're at it, I want to propose one thing: We, as community, need the Ultimate Melee Mapping Guide! There are quite a bit of melee tutorials, however they feel kinda scattered, each touching a small subset of aspects.

@mafe's Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps is, what I believe, the most fundamental in its approach, so it would prove instrumental to be updated with topics on the Goblin Merchants, base layout 101, the basic metrics for the objectives (expansion/traversal timings) and more!
However we shouldn't lay this task solely on mafe's shoulders. People capable to properly disclose said topics are most encouraged to add to the tutorial (I think pm-ing a snippet would do) and should be credited for their effort!

@SayuriTenshi Well, this is a rather grim take on innovation. What you said is reasonable, but only to an extent. Such as playing on Turtle Rock in 2o19. Great map, but I mean, yeah...
Don't get me wrong, there are standards to be followed. And in-between, there is some space for something new. Not too much new, but enough to spark something out of this old game for a while until it's normal again.
You see, the 'need to bring something new' is very, very human. You cannot combat it. You cannot kill hope.
 
Kerael said:
Well, this is a rather grim take on innovation. What you said is reasonable, but only to an extent. Such as playing on Turtle Rock in 2o19. Great map, but I mean, yeah...
Don't get me wrong, there are standards to be followed. And in-between, there is some space for something new. Not too much new, but enough to spark something out of this old game for a while until it's normal again.
You see, the 'need to bring something new' is very, very human. You cannot combat it. You cannot kill hope.
Click to expand...
How about a reform?
Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others
 
I disagree with @SayuriTenshi on this part: "Guys the game is 17 years old and is figured out. It's a shame we only have like 12 good melee maps." The figured out part especially.

TLDR: New maps aren't bad, we just need to spend some time with them.
---

It's not like we had 100 new ladder maps from 2002 to now to really test things out.

The same 'good' 12 maps are just maps (mostly green) that have been filtered out over the years due to large amounts of bad maps.

The meta such as it is, currently only exists BECAUSE of the maps it is played ON for so many years without change. The maps DEFINED/EVOLVED the meta. We, the mapmakers, are melee players ourselves as well, and just require the highest skilled testers to confirm if everything is really okay/perfect. But we do try to make sure to involve possibilities for strategies that have developed over time (like fast expand or AOW creep)

On the other hand, what is perfect? A map can have design choices like Echo Isles not having Labs. Eventually, players will get used to whatever map they play on and develop strategies/metas on it (unless super bad or broken). All those 'quirks' on such maps have turned into strategies. Northern Isles was a new map once, Amazonia was... Would you consider them good maps now but hesitate back then?

How often did we see NE eating trough trees to setup expo on maps before Amazonia?
Does the lack of creep experience, Labs and expos on Echo Isles make it bad? No, it creates an interesting all-in situations or different approach.

A successful new ladder map formula would be: keep 90% and create 10% new.

IMHO, Blizz just needs to force like 6 new (but good) maps and let it simmer for half a year. Otherwise, highly skilled/involved players will always choose old maps they've practiced all these years on. To me - something like that is highly unattractive and uninteresting to watch. Just look SC2 for example, 3-4 new maps every 4 months from the community.
 
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For example, I can easily remove Mana fountains on Ruins of Azshara LV for races that dislike it, put some elevated, buildable ground at Mercs for HU and add trees next to the tavern for NE. All of those were specific design choices, made to force a new playstyle or restrict old ones. Your race hates the map? You'll veto those map your race doesn't benefit from anyway...

If some map gets vetoed into oblivion, it will get removed eventually. Why not try something new in the process?
 
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WolfFarkas said:
So the thing (I didnt know) is posted in @Anomines changelog update of Swamped Temple. Somehow I wanted to do a map like that and Northrend Isles.
But I followed the old Swamped temple, and didnt read the changelog or download the update (of 2019 march) with the 2 shops thing. My bad for being not updated with the info.

"Lvl 15 Marketplace with lvl 4 Furbolg Shaman, lvl 6 Furbolg Tracker and lvl 4 Furbolg now moved to the middle of the map. The marketplace is replaced by a second shop due to balancereasons and the creeps are replaced with 2 lvl 5 Ogre Maules and a lvl 5 Renegade Wizard. Items stay the same."

-So sorry for the 2 shops laking.
-And sorry for the rushed crayzy creeps (I didnt want to steal others recipes so I did my best to do new balanced recipes).
Click to expand...



I think its more a question of choice. There are so many things that could be "wrong" in maps but maybe are just a choice.

This is why judging this is also quite hard because deciding for certain features is always a +/- list.

Echo isles works perfectly with one shop and even makes it to one of its features. Its beneficial for some races and bad for others. Maybe there are other ways to balance it out. On paper the marketplace is inbalanced, but again EI can pull it off due to the style of the map and creepcamps that wont drop items that would be imbalanced to buy in the marketplace.
So there are always decisions to make and not every map has to have all possibilities available.

Like take the criticism on Gold Port:
Sure, there are no trees in the center available and thats bad for kotg - but does every map need to be viable for all heroes? Sure its beneficial but there are also maps where I would play DL fast exe and maps where one couldn't pull it off.

Also things like water that blocks the "open map design" and doesnt allow free movement in all directions. Yes its true, but it can also be boring. Amazonia vs TS. Both can work.


Further the criticism with the green camp too far away and not viable in competitive play. EI has a green camp that far as well and is perfectly viable. Also having green camps dropping something possibly important (like rune of spiritlink), gives a whole new level of inportance to a camp like this. Might it be just to get it to avoid your oppo to get it.
I think it was mafe who wrote it once (I'm not quite sure if it was him). But many of the oldschool maps which are used for competitive play would have maybe even gotten a bad rating in contest. 1 shop, no way. Different distances to neutral buildings at different starting positions - no go. Matketplace? Imba..and so on


So one should of course keep in mind all the possible imbalances and try to avoid these things. But once one is aware of them its also good to play around with it a bit and see if it still produces something interesting.
 
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Since when is 1 shop or marketplace imbalanced? Some playstyles may benefit from it yes but imbalanced no. NI works rly fine and is a really good map. Like i said that would be a good way to go for uniqueniss. Also i dont see marktplace come into play that often on ni eaven with the strong items. Only in the late late game on 80 supply someone may buy a goo aura
 
While some of the judging seems harsh, it is good on every part. It is good to see our own maps through other peoples eyes. While we can have widely different opinions on what looks good and what doesn't. we should always take feedback in and think about what we can make better.
 
(2)UthersSlumber_v5.0
No glaring problems found. Pretty map. Creeps were a little easy. Good itemization and unit type variety. Computer AI eventually built itself into its base so hard it was not able to leave for the rest of the game with anything except wisps and dryads. Widening the starting areas would help prevent this. (Yeah, it was vs Night elf.) Aside; I dropped a Sacrificial Skull on a green creep camp near the middle, and only trees got blighted, not the ground. So no regeneration for my army :( It's 100% unbuildable terrain there...

Rest of the maps will be checked later.

p.s.: Nice drama in the beginning of this thread. I for one can see both sides of the argument(s).

Edit: Rabbits, Dogs, Raccoons have 200 (Camp) acquisition range set on them for some reason
 
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3ICE said:
Computer AI eventually built itself into its base so hard it was not able to leave for the rest of the game with anything except wisps and dryads. Widening the starting areas would help prevent this. (Yeah, it was vs Night elf.)
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No. This thing with Night Elf AI cannot be fixed with base layouts. They will always wall themselves in.

And you army did in fact regenerate. The Blight isn't visible on unbuildable terrain and water, but it is present. You can check that with a minimap, since it's visible there even on water.

And no, it wasn't nice.
 
Kerael said:
Blight isn't visible on unbuildable terrain and water, but it is present.
Click to expand...
Thank you! That blight info was top notch. I did in fact see it on the minimap. Good to know this detail.

--

I've never ran into this wall-in problem before on melee maps, so I assumed it was the layout.

More open maps would help lower the chances of it occurring, at least, no? AI drops its buildings wherever it can build, IIRC; positioned at a "random point ~800 units from the start location", searching for a buildable spot at that distance along some predefined range of angles.

So if we give it a wider arc to work with, maybe even half a circle, all buildings would fit with some spare room in between to walk through.

Of course the three other races destroy trees naturally so their bases open up over time. Only elves need special consideration.

--

Not nice that it had to happen, sure. But for me it was entertaining. Good points raised all around.

Edit: I promised to check the rest of the maps but only got around to playing (and editing) some of them: The 5 winners of course, and the top community votes (the ones with 9+ votes in the poll):
Starfish Village, Northfall Isles, Moonspark, Rivulet, Gold Port, Logging Camp, Ruins of Azshara, and Brightwater Oasis. Plus: Northwatch Hold and Uther's Slumber.
And of course the additional judge picks.
 
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1) Brightwater Oasis and Goldport
2) Happy as UD. But how was it? Who knows... we might never know (lol)
3) Yeah.. I'd like that too.

As for the criticism towards my map: I agree that the aggro seems messy in multiple areas (middle orange camp, observatory camps) & I shall re-do these areas to be more fitting. The different corners were carefully designed so that they occupy the same amount of space and provide same amount of buildable space, but of course, I will probably take a look at it later on. I wanted to add some visibility disablers so that the area with the sea isn't favorable for attackers when compared to the sight-blocking cliff on the other corner of the map.

For the rest of the stuff such as mines in the corners, unorthodox shapes, different style than most of the maps - my goal was to create a unique and unorthodox map. Which seems to be very provoking - and I don't necessarily mind that. I just wanted something new. The philosophy behind my map-making was to bring some new fresh design choices to the map.

Of course, I don't think that anything that's new is a priori good. I wanted to keep it within a reasonable frame, which is also the reason why my map might be a bit rushed - I actually decided to scratch my first map (which seemed to me as too daring) that was nearing completion and decided to start over again. But I want to emphasize that it was by no means some last-minute work. I've been putting a lot of time into it. Surely not months as some have, but days for sure.

I've already reflected some of the feedback regarding item drops and I will further look into it, hopefully with someone's help. I stand by my choices of terrain, pathing, visuals and I actually think it is by far the prettiest map in the contest. But then again - this only proves how biased and subjective we are when it comes to looks.

In retrospective, it saddens me that my map was for a long time the only which got roasted. It saddens me that the debate was kinda harsh and that people were hurt. It saddens me that better maps did not get their rightful place in the contest and it saddens me that mine did. Which ultimately, makes me sad about even participating in this horrible thing. Cause it makes me look like an idiot... I am grateful tho for the feedback, which surely enlightened me in many ways ^^

One can only hope that the next contest will be better organized. What amazes me is the ABSOLUTE absence of communication from organizers. We got no info about the finals, we can only guess the winners have changed since the frontpage remains the same. And some comments or notes from the judges would be great.

I know there was no bad intention. I can understand that things went sideways, I can accept mistakes were made. But not saying a word is not an answer.
 
WolfFarkas said:
I have 3 questions:

1) Which 2 maps where used for the finals?
2) How was the final of the Hive cup?? (who won? UD, NE, HU, Orc??)
3) Links of the final of the Hive cup??
Click to expand...
Thread next door had this info. (It was also meant for discussion, but nobody wrote in it...).
See Hive Workshop Cup
See VODs section for the replays
(Actually, I have some proper replays. I wanted to post them but I forgot. I will do so later)
 
Last edited:
Wayshan said:
1) Brightwater Oasis and Goldport
2) Happy as UD. But how was it? Who knows... we might never know (lol)
3) Yeah.. I'd like that too.

As for the criticism towards my map: I agree that the aggro seems messy in multiple areas (middle orange camp, observatory camps) & I shall re-do these areas to be more fitting. The different corners were carefully designed so that they occupy the same amount of space and provide same amount of buildable space, but of course, I will probably take a look at it later on. I wanted to add some visibility disablers so that the area with the sea isn't favorable for attackers when compared to the sight-blocking cliff on the other corner of the map.

For the rest of the stuff such as mines in the corners, unorthodox shapes, different style than most of the maps - my goal was to create a unique and unorthodox map. Which seems to be very provoking - and I don't necessarily mind that. I just wanted something new. The philosophy behind my map-making was to bring some new fresh design choices to the map.

Of course, I don't think that anything that's new is a priori good. I wanted to keep it within a reasonable frame, which is also the reason why my map might be a bit rushed - I actually decided to scratch my first map (which seemed to me as too daring) that was nearing completion and decided to start over again. But I want to emphasize that it was by no means some last-minute work. I've been putting a lot of time into it. Surely not months as some have, but days for sure.

I've already reflected some of the feedback regarding item drops and I will further look into it, hopefully with someone's help. I stand by my choices of terrain, pathing, visuals and I actually think it is by far the prettiest map in the contest. But then again - this only proves how biased and subjective we are when it comes to looks.

In retrospective,
1- it saddens me that my map was for a long time the only which got roasted. It saddens me that the debate was kinda harsh and
2- that people were hurt.
3- It saddens me that better maps did not get their rightful place in the contest and it saddens me that mine did.
4-Which ultimately, makes me sad about even participating in this horrible thing.
5-Cause it makes me look like an idiot... I am grateful tho for the feedback, which surely enlightened me in many ways ^^

6-One can only hope that the next contest will be better organized.

7-What amazes me is the ABSOLUTE absence of communication from organizers. We got no info about the finals,

8-we can only guess the winners have changed since the frontpage remains the same. And some comments or notes from the judges would be great.

I know there was no bad intention. I can understand that things went sideways, I can accept mistakes were made. But not saying a word is not an answer.
Click to expand...

1- Dont think your map as the only case/ Issue.
2- nah people will be just fine.
3- nah nerver mind it,
4- There was some contagius stress, but that tend to dissipate sooner or later I think.
5- Nah, for a first map , is great.
6- the problem wasnt organization, was the timming, mapping contest tend to be 30 days of mapping and 30 days of judging, it was imposible to make it work.
the only options are: make this, or make nothing. At least new maps were created, and others improved.
7- It was posted on the other thread. so the info was there, and is more pertinent there than here. the finals results doesnt have relation with the mapping contest results.
8- I dont know I wanted to ask that.

Nightmare2077 said:
Thread next door had this info. (It was also meant for discussion, but nobody wrote in it...).
See Hive Workshop Cup
See VODs section for the replays
(Actually, I have some proper replays. I wanted to post them but I forgot. I will do so later)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info

Oh great develop of Russian Federation Players, congratulations to the winners. The Russ are amaizing, they are pros in snow winter olympic games, they have awsome sniping skills, they have a great informatics conserving very old RTS games. And now I just figure out they are pros in WC3.

About what @Wayshan posted (the item 8)

1) The frontpage results are going to stay as they are or they are going to change?
2) X.D. was removed as judge and the pdf deleted, so the score is going to be made with RemoDemo only?
3) Is RemoDemo score going to change or it will remain as it is?
4) So oficially speaking, is posible to disclose info about wich maps won the mapping contest 1st, 2nd, 3rd , 4th place?
 
Last edited:
Wayshan said:
1) Brightwater Oasis and Goldport
2) Happy as UD. But how was it? Who knows... we might never know (lol)
3) Yeah.. I'd like that too.
Click to expand...

Only these were meant for you @WolfFarkas. And the questions you asked are exactly what I am curious to find out too :)

Nightmare2077 said:
Thread next door had this info. (It was also meant for discussion, but nobody wrote in it...).
Click to expand...

It would be really helpful to link it in this thread, so we can watch it. How is one supposed to keep track of events if it's not linked? Heck, I wouldn't know this thread exist if it wasn't for someone tagging my name and ofc the info banner (but that popped out for me days after this was hot topic) ^^

Nightmare2077 said:
(Actually, I have some proper replays. I wanted to post them but I forgot. I will do so later)
Click to expand...

Cool! :D Looking forward to that, thx!
 
Hi there everybody. I have an idea that I wish to discuss regarding this contest:
First I will point some facts.

1) Contest is stalled: fact
2) Contest has only 1 judge: fact.
3) So far there is no judging in text format to validate the contest results and make it end: fact
4) RemoDemo last post here was 11 october, fact.
I give thanks to him for his effort during the review period, since it was very very short, the play tournament was great.
And I would understand if at this point of the contest, if he, Remo, cant be judge for the site now. I mean, is no good to put preasure to another user that also has other stuff to do. Thats quite understanding. Drop judging is very common.

But
5) This contest needs some sort of end: fact

More than 1 month has passed and this contest is not going anywhere, is just floating as un-finished.

So I have a proposal to all: to the staff, to the participants, to the managers of this contest.

I would like to drop myself as participant and become judge.
1-That means I drop as participant, my map will quit the contest.
2- The votes I received wont be counted.
3- the votes I casted wont be counted

While items 2-3 are very important. It happened in the past that poll score had to be re-calculated because of post-poll disqualification. So that can be done, and with an excel is very easy, to do the new maths.

I know is crayzy, but @JaleVeliki said something important, a good contest need like 3-4 judges (Ideal). And one of them should be ideal an inside user from the site. And also this is my proposal to help this contest to reach a good end.

I dont know another way to make this contest ends, if someone has another idea please post it here. I am open for ideas, anything that can help this contest to stop being stalled.

About me becoming judge:
- I have mapping experience (16 maps).
- I am a Hiveworkshop user.
- The effort I put in my map (if you saw it), I promise to put the same effort in the judging.
- I can post/update here my progress of the review: as example I already reviewed 3 maps (to see myself if I could do it)
- I will use the +) +) -) -) system. And follow the 50% balance, 35% terraining, 15% creativity.

Random (and silly) example.

Good Points:
- Good Base shape.
- No gaps between trees.

Lower score:
-The green creep has a unit L7 and a unit L2. Unit L7 has 1000 hp and mana burn, is to hard for a first green creep.
- Goblin merchant area is a narrow dead end, player needs to turn back.
- Ramp near merc. camp is bugged (violet pixel pathing P)

I promise to be very objetive, and think well my ideas. Not going to reduce score with subjetive stuff as example:
I like 3 or more ways of attack, personal taste, not going to punish a 2 ways of attack map. (thats crayzy subjetive).
Or if a map is Lordaeron Summer and the other is ICC, not going to judge wich enviroment I "like more". I am going to judge the terraining effort. Tile-mix effort, minimap reading, rise-low tool used, doodads effort used, different areas created.

My sugestion is lets do it: if my judging is no good, I can be veto as judge- post reading my text.
And if by chance Remo finds time to post his judging. Have 2 judges will help to have a more objetive result.
So there is nothing to loose.

So what do you think???

I would like to ask you to support my idea, if there are no better ideas. If someone has a better idea, I would like to hear it.

Well I will use this time to continue writting the judging text if by chance, my idea of become judge is (by luck) overall approved.
(update of progress: 4 contest map reviewed).
 
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