• Listen to a special audio message from Bill Roper to the Hive Workshop community (Bill is a former Vice President of Blizzard Entertainment, Producer, Designer, Musician, Voice Actor) 🔗Click here to hear his message!
  • Read Evilhog's interview with Gregory Alper, the original composer of the music for WarCraft: Orcs & Humans 🔗Click here to read the full interview.

⚙️Warcraft III Reforged PTR Version 2.0 - ???

We don't want to get hurt again. And lets hope they don't break the game through this update somehow if it does get released.
Who is "we?" Are we united? Do the people interested in this game actually agree on anything?

There are so many fascinating microcosms. People making campaigns on Reforged, people making classic+ customs on Reforged's engine in the "classic mode," people rebelling and just launching their old legacy clients on third party servers...

What "hurt" or confused me the most at Reforged launch was that I had followed Reforged development for years leading up to launch. And so nothing was new, and nothing changed at launch.

But the social media and the humans at large outside of War3 social spaces changed. They all looked at Reforged, and used it probably more for entertainment laughing at software glitches, feature removals, and bad management, than for even trying to actually play it. And then they went back to their lives, concluding that Warcraft III was dead to them.

And so it was less "Blizzard" Activision, and more the masses of humans at large, who I felt "hurt"/confused me. Because they were so... extremely... okay... with being uninformed about the technology. And through it all, as a social media user myself, it felt like my thoughts and opinions were being sold to someone to make me hate Reforged, even though part of the problem with Reforged was that at least one and probably multiple sophisticated technology changes were made at my request, for me specifically, rather than for the casual masses.

And so I began to look more negatively at social media than at Reforged.

In light of that, a message like yours that I am quoting, gives me a sort of knee jerk pull towards thinking you are part of what hurt me more than Blizzard, because you are among the people who word your phrasing in this specific way.

Do we have community? Can you read what I'm writing and produce empathy for it; momentarily lend me an ear? Or does it read like total madness and lies?

Anyway I know that because I haven't the power to fight social media, the best things can be is probably where they are now. Through social media, I humiliated myself online, and became like unto the lowest of the low, these last two years. Nobody who believes the narratives could probably trust me anymore, and especially not Activision.

So that means we won't see another Reforging that reflects input from people like me and Grubby through a bright communicator like our former shared Activision Blizzard contact. Instead, someone else will have to handle advising the people who change the code.

Maybe the new direction will favor the casuals! More like what Reforged managers would have intended, they could ship with just Orc and Human race, and delete or deprecate the World Editor or the Custom Games or whatever for being too complicated.

And then, with the ability to focus on a subset of the technology, the workers will be able to get a great deal more work done.

I think I am reaching that point, where I am feeling resigned to this truth. I had my Reforged and I did not honor it so well as I could have. Maybe the programmers who were given a Jira ticket that said, "Retera asked us to change XYZ" vehemently hate me now in hindsight, for being the liar and the villain social media has revealed me to be in their eyes, for what I did in 2022.

So after 1.33, my motivations on playing the Reforged have truly faded. I'm probably just here for the show, now. If it takes us to Reforged Two, I'm sure there will be some big fireworks.

Meanwhile, Warsmash runs on my raspberry pi now. You can buy a gaming PC for $80 and play my Frozen Throne emulator on it, because I am rewriting Frozen Throne from scratch from outside the company so that we don't lose the ability to maintain this thing, and do not forever live in a world where a user must choose between 1.29-1.31 bugs, or 4:3 resolution, or Reforged data bugs, never able to cherrypick the changes they do want and don't want. The code for my emulator is online, and the code for its dependencies are online. It can be reconstructed in new forms, on new computers, given nothing but my code and the War3 art and stats files. [I was even able to hack it to play WoW, and hack it to play Project Revolution to a limited extent.]

And so the future is so bright! I will not be "hurt" by Microsoft Activision on this topic. I cannot be. I already forged the code of Frozen Throne again from nothing but the ashes, and from some other folks' work here on Hive Workshop. And then when I had my own game engine, I played the Naga race on it that I already created, from more than a dozen years ago.

So do we have community? Is there a "we" than can get hurt by anything here? Or is it all just the web of social media now, and beneath it the humans who may or may not decide to relive their memories of the Reign of Chaos and the Frozen Throne, and feel the nostalgia in each their own way?
 
Level 4
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
46
I just hope Blizzard releases a patch for the 1.24/1.26/1.27 old versions that fixes the issues with outdated rendering and limited memory. As for the art, I only hope that the old models are upscaled to HD like the StarCraft2's war3mod , keeping their original animations, and add dynamic shadow, thats enough
 
Last edited:

Rheiko

Spell Reviewer
Level 27
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
4,215
Who is "we?" Are we united? Do the people interested in this game actually agree on anything?

There are so many fascinating microcosms. People making campaigns on Reforged, people making classic+ customs on Reforged's engine in the "classic mode," people rebelling and just launching their old legacy clients on third party servers...
I believe a lot of people agree Blizzard has been quite disappointing as of late. Besides, was it not reforged that divided the community into how it is now? I'm sorry, I wasn't in the loop following the release of reforged but was the community not in a shambles at the time? And you are asking if we do have a community, are you not part of one right now?

What "hurt" or confused me the most at Reforged launch was that I had followed Reforged development for years leading up to launch. And so nothing was new, and nothing changed at launch.

But the social media and the humans at large outside of War3 social spaces changed. They all looked at Reforged, and used it probably more for entertainment laughing at software glitches, feature removals, and bad management, than for even trying to actually play it. And then they went back to their lives, concluding that Warcraft III was dead to them.

And so it was less "Blizzard" Activision, and more the masses of humans at large, who I felt "hurt"/confused me. Because they were so... extremely... okay... with being uninformed about the technology. And through it all, as a social media user myself, it felt like my thoughts and opinions were being sold to someone to make me hate Reforged, even though part of the problem with Reforged was that at least one and probably multiple sophisticated technology changes were made at my request, for me specifically, rather than for the casual masses.
Can you really blame them, though? Is it not in our nature to reject something that has its cons weighs over the pros? Unlike you who have followed the development progress, most probably did not and had different expectations compared to yours because of it. Not to mention the false advertisement adding fuel to the fire. Besides, if those technology changes were really made at your request and for you specifically, isn't that already a wrong step to take? Shouldn't they take the desire of the masses into their account as well? And find the middleground for it? Although it is possible that they actually did and simply fell off during execution due certain things.

In light of that, a message like yours that I am quoting, gives me a sort of knee jerk pull towards thinking you are part of what hurt me more than Blizzard, because you are among the people who word your phrasing in this specific way.
With that said, you seem to be part of what hurt me and a lot of fans. So I guess we are equal in that regard. However, I am not here to blame others or even argue about this matter. Regardless of who is right and wrong in the past, I simply want to remind others not to keep their expectations high so they don't end up getting disappointed with whatever Blizzard has up their sleeves.
 

Ralle

Owner
Level 79
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
10,213
In semantic versioning this would probably mean a breaking change for modding at least. My guess is that you'd have to create a map from scratch to play it on War3.2.

I think they're doing this to signal not that modding is not a priority, but they're starting over with the modding aspect in a more recent engine. But wouldn't that be Warcraft 4?

I really don't know.
 
Level 15
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
148
war3reforgedmemejpg.jpg

Original comic:
 
With that said, you seem to be part of what hurt me and a lot of fans. So I guess we are equal in that regard. However, I am not here to blame others or even argue about this matter. Regardless of who is right and wrong in the past, I simply want to remind others not to keep their expectations high so they don't end up getting disappointed with whatever Blizzard has up their sleeves.
It's the internet so I sometimes waffle between opinions and wonder if the information I have is all nonsense.

But it was true that amidst other bug fixes I sent to Activision in 2018-2019, I sent a long PDF to one of the Activision Blizzard-hired modders from Hive who was active in taking bug reports and such and forwarding them to the the right internal folks for fixing them to improve Reforged. And rather than a bug report, I sent a suggestion:

I told them to open up the fundamental internal script file that processes "You will be revealed to your opponents unless you build a Town Hall," and to change this. In the builtin game scripts, historically this file hard-coded the 4 player halls by their RoC unit class string ("townhall," "greathall," "necropolis," "treeoflife") and this was notoriously frustrating on custom maps where copying Great Hall and making "Fel Orc Great Hall," or somesuch, would not prevent the player from being revealed.

I had already modified the game script on my own, to make an extensible version, which uses UNIT_TYPE_TOWN_HALL or whatever it was in triggers, which detects these units and all units copied from them, so that we get a more robust engine that works the same in melee but also in custom games.

I sent them an extremely long documentation in this regard, providing them with my already working solution (modified internal game script file). But I said that it was also utmost priority not to lose even the smallest iota of performance in melee games. So, my solution ran a large amount of custom script in the melee battles. Whenever a unit dies, the original game is doing a high performance query on the 4 unit types, and how many we have of each one. My modified script was scanning all units on the map and checking if their "Unit Classification" was set to "Town Hall" in the World Editor. So while my solution was 100% perfect for me because it's a 20 year old game and performance does not concern me, on their side for a change applied to all players, we want melee/versus to be unchanged, meaning that performance be unchanged, after this very slight fix. So I advised them not to use the (totally working) solution that I provided, and instead to make their own. But I said their own solution should be written differently, where the town hall count was queried by calling a C++ native function I cannot write for them without the original game code, which would do the same as my userscript but in high performance engine code, similar to the 4 calls getting made for the 4 types historically, now to this 1 call instead.

My mistake was perhaps the one you are making now, to call these kids in California, "Blizzard," even though they are not the original code authors. They tried to do what I asked, but did not test it for all cases. So it spiraled into chaos. If you go and watch many of the earliest videos of Reforged Beta, there are moments during 2v2 melee when only melee versus was available in beta anyway, and not custom games, where one player quits and then his ally gets revealed even though his Town Hall is still alive. They messed it all up! It was so clearly one of those, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" moments.

And so my advice that I perceived to be well-intended and in good faith, for them led to even more bugs and users laughing even harder on social media at this game.

Because:
1) I made the same mistake you made in your last two posts, of using the name "Blizzard" to refer to whoever has the most money and bought the name -- to refer to the WoW dealership that I should've known was ruining games I enjoy for at least a decade -- instead of calling this "Activision" as distinct from the people who invented Warcraft and Starcraft and Diablo, because for all I can imagine those inventors haved cached out and left us
2) Users in the public beta program did not engage in good faith testing of this code, possibly because dorks at Activision had no good system for reporting bugs, and instead used the opportunity to say, "I'm playing Reforged! Wow, they broke automatic reveal!" on social media.

We were perhaps saved by @MindWorX , who according to legend saw the mess the people had made after reading my long PDF, and changed it instead to read from the "town hall equivalent" types from Gameplay Constants, which solves the same problem, but he was passionate enough about the game to bugfix until it was basically working again. I think I mightve still been revealed in Reforged versus in 2023 in one case when my allied player (who left the game) had a Stronghold and I should have not been revealed, but the base case of getting revealed when I myself have a Great Hall has long since been fixed, so the obviously broken nonsense is gone away, per the work of @MindWorX .

Had I a time machine to delete that part of history, to have never happened, the Reforged experience would have been better for almost everyone but the 1% who build custom techtrees in World Editor.

Edit:
So, I apologize, good sir, if I ruined our collective game for you in some way - inadvertently through my actions described above.

But my advice is that perhaps we should distinguish between a group of people who once existed -- "Blizzard Entertainment" -- and something that exists in the present day, which we might be wiser to refer to BINO ("Blizzard In Name Only.")
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,113
Had I a time machine to delete that part of history, to have never happened, the Reforged experience would have been better for almost everyone but the 1% who build custom techtrees in World Editor.
That is quite a simplified way of looking for what people want or hold important.

As a person who belonged to that 1% (whose maps playability ceased to exist the moment requirements no longer followed any logic) I can tell it was not the best of times. That, however, was not the only reason for having a hard time coping through the transition to a now Reforged-era where two different versions of the game co-exist. There's a number of reasons (most of which also have a good side to them, but which in some cases are obsolete due to the players' needs and purposes).
BattleNet integration
Pros:
It's nice to have your games accessible through the same launcher/place. Also allows displaying of news/changes and such.
Cons: There are times when the game simply does not start up. Testing a map is sometimes cumbersome when the game demands a log-in (despite you being logged in already). This is infuriating to those who play Reforged semi-rarely, and then run into a "never mind, I guess I won't play then" -moment.
New Graphics
Pros:
Offers a lot of new possibilities along with making the whole game more attractive to novel players. The main 'sellpoint' of Reforged. Whether the art serves in the best way or is appealing is another debate.
Cons: The game requires almost 30Gbs of extra disc space, even if you don't use the Reforged graphics. A lot of inconsistencies with the models used (some of the Reforged effects/models lack hit-boxes, making some models unusable as units/for other purposes for lack of interactivity in-game).
World Editor Updates
Pros:
Very nice to see new features brought to World Editor. Allows more modding capabilities.
Cons: Some of the novel features are broken or have inconsistencies. Lost some functionalities due to Reforged features.
Melee Community
Pros:
Breathed new life into the game (albeit the degree to which, is debatable). The game got attention after years of non-development.
Cons: The people who had played melee (the melee community) split up: Classic, Reforged, and War3Champions due to misalignment on which version of the game should be played - the absence of a functional Ladder made this disparency even worse. Lost functionalities, like the possibility of playing Reign of Chaos melee.
Campaign
Pros:
The campaign got an uplift and Reforged owners got to play a slightly tweaked/rebalanced story.
Cons: A lot of things in the Campaign simply broke: some maps crashed or simply didn't start. Lost access to Custom Campaigns. What campaign enthusiasts received was far from what was originally promised. The campaign progress was bugged for a long time and balance changes eventually reverted.
Custom Game Community
Pros:
A new bunch of players came onto the platform to also try out custom content, which brought new players. With the introduction of new World Editor features and Graphics new possibilities opened.
Cons: Ahead of the Reforged launch hosting bots were removed (and along custom-made ranking / ladders). Many custom maps also suffered from numerous desync issues (that previously didn't seem to be an issue). Many maps also suffered from clarity/playability issues between the versions, such as hard to read gameplay due to graphics or missing hitboxes.

I think that's enough of a listing for now, but overall there are a lot of parameters and aspects to Reforged that need to be taken into account. I'd say most, if not all, changes came with both good and bad in them - it's up to the individual player to decide whether he values the good more than the bad. Also note that not all cons or pros show equally quickly - for example, when new World Editor capabilities are brought in, not all developers will use them immediately (or ever) while they might still be a nuisance for those same editors.

I think the biggest 'issue' was that the promises that were made and eventually what was delivered didn't add up, and the follow-up made things even worse. I know that it was blatantly clear that most of the things were not going to be delivered as was foretold (some things were even mentioned beforehand), but this topic must be viewed through the eyes of a median player.

Most people sometimes function like kids: when promised a lollipop, we get upset when we don't get it, even if the argument for not getting it is valid. The issue was that when we originally headed for the trip to the candy store we were indeed promised a lollipop - the fact that the street signs along the way said "Out of stock" didn't matter. Kids cannot read. What made the situation worse was that when we got to the candy store to see the empty shelves for ourselves we were told that new candybars were to arrive shortly.
 
I know the modding scene for this community is not as big as the casuals that actually play the game, but if they allow more legroom for modding, it might probably give those who can "fix" things the ability to at least make mods that do bug fixes, patches and whatnot, instead of having to wait for ActiBlizzard devs to go do it. Yeah, sure this game RTS first and foremost, but if it's allowed that - to just give modders almost absolute freedom, almost like an open source but not really - we (or they) would've been able to somehow "save" the functionalities, systems or mechanics or whatev of the game, making it less buggy. I'm one of the people who likes Reforged graphics, but we can or might afford to save either graphics or whatever. I mean, look at other games that allowed modding, Skyrim and Baldur's Gate 3 for example. In time, modders (or even casual players that might learn modding, like me originally) might be able to do something about what the devs can't, rather than having to wait for broken promises. Although, asking for this is already too much it seems.

Personally, I just hope for the best but expect the worst. That way, I can just shrug it off if they somehow not deliver with 2.0, or be amused if - and that's a big IF - they do. Still, there's no concrete news that this 2.0 will overhaul anything, or do anything. Anyway, I've been babbling on, probably nonsense takes. My apologies in advance.
 
I think realistically the best we can hope for is a significant milestone in bugfixes, balance changes and/or editor features, which would probably be more appropriately called 1.37. I really doubt there will be any sort of new content like a new campaign or new playable races. Adding e.g. a Naga race would probably upset a lot of people as too big of a change to game balance anyway.
If there is new content, it will probably be a paid DLC. I don't see them putting out actual new stuff without trying to make a profit on it.

My bet is that it was some sort of mistake, and at best we'll see 1.37 soon-ish. I hope they add syntax highlighting and a function list for JASS :p
 
Level 9
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
222
I just hope it won't break CSW: ToD...it's the reason I rebought Reforged...

In the best case scenario I would want SD+ graphics, improved Reforged graphics, redone cinematics like the first one (or at least Arthas vs Illidan), and a new campaign for each faction...I'd love a Scarlet Crusade campaign..
 
Level 2
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
2
personally, I get why people are so pessimistic, I have also all but lost my faith in Blizzard, however, even if I am one of the only ones in the 1%, I am...cautiously optimistic, now people will call me an idiot and stuff, but 2.0 means something huge is coming in my eyes, why?

Why 2.0 means something big could be coming:

Warcraft 3, throughout its entire lifespan from start to finish, has stuck into the 1.0 framework even reforged did not merit a 2.0 version. When looking at Starcraft 2 the only time new version numbers were added was after expansion packs, huge packs with full stories, a new race and new maps. When looking at software, like Blender, look at the huge leap from 1.0 -2.0 and then 3.0, including eevee, ray tracing, full from the ground up new code base etc.
When something becomes 2.0 it usually means a complete overall of what is seen, or at the very least the most wanted features a game/software has.

Now this probably still means nothing to people regarding the version number, it could just be a mistake (very...unlikely, as this type of mistake has not been seen by Blizzard once, and would be stupid as a joke honestly) but anyway, the other things that have been happening around warcraft 3 tells me that this is not a mistake.

Why reviving and updating warcraft 3 reforged makes sense for microsoft:

Let's start with something simple Blizzard is no longer Activision, it's no longer owned by Activision and bobby kotick is no longer the CEO, Microsoft owns Blizzard now. At face value, this might not mean much to people, just another large company owning a different large company, but look at how carefully microsoft looks after its classic games and the fantastic remasters it brings out to its various IP'S of old, with new races, brand new visuals and gameplay improvements. I am 100% sure that microsoft is fully aware of how bad the name Blizzard now is, they have stated that they want to look back into the older games of Blizzard and its IPS and that they wish to do justice to them. Might be empty words, but microsoft has a knack of continuingly trying and reviving old IPS with success. Look at the new age of mythology, the remastered age of mythology and age of empires etc.

Now take into account the survey Blizzard sent internally a year back, about what players want, the most wanted features, etc. Most of that 70% of it is implemented now, clans, custom games, ranked play, player profiles etc. Is it perfect? no it's not, but it is there, so the survey checks out. There are only a hand full things not implemented yet, firstly, redone reforged model graphics, redone reforged environment graphics, updated classic grathics, and finally updated campaign and editor. These are the only ones left.

Another thing of note here is that the chinese company, Netease that split with Blizzard and broke down statues in China due to kotick and how he treated them, has now reintegrated into Blizzard, again, might not seem much, but Asia is the top consumer of RTS Esports, especially korea and China, and they are one of the top microtransaction monsters in the world, which I promise will be appealing to Blizzard, again more money.

Outside of companies, another very important announcement has been made, warcraft direct is coming this year for the 30th anniversary, it's the best time to announce a remake of the original reforged remake and push for a better future for the warcraft RTS game, to acknowledge previous mistakes and start to rebuild the Legacy of warcraft and Blizzard.

Most of all, it makes no sense for Microsoft to hold onto a brand as powerful as warcraft, and to continue to tarnish it, when they could make millions from the IP. This remake of a remake, could bring old players back, bring new players into the IP, like it did with us in 1990 and even up the subscriber count for wow. The company, has no possible way of losing if this succeeds.

What I expect from 2.0
I am cautiously optimistic, not 100% excited about it like I was for reforged, I just feel logically, taking into consideration everything noted above, this is not going to be a small update.

So what do I expect, at the very least?
  • New reforged environment graphics
  • completed reforged assets (such as face animations)
  • New skins that can be bought in a new in-game microtransaction shop - generates new income, gives interest in the game and its future.
  • A new map editor.
-
This would align with a 2.0 update, and would be a realistic seeing of what could be implemented in two years work of a small team and the funding of Microsoft, but if I were honest, 2.0 signifies something...much bigger since not even reforged was a 2.0 update, I expect a full team is actually working on this update.

So here is what I expect, still within realistic expectations for what 2.0 means in a software way.
  • New reforged environment graphics.
  • upscaled Warcraft 3 classic mode textures.
  • improved lighting and shaders
*Completed assets, with new assets and skins (perhaps to be bought or unlocked)
  • a new map editor (with modern features...like emission maps and capability of 3D camera's to control like in 3D software)
  • new reforged UI
  • new in-game microtransaction shop (adding skins and things like the original pre-order bonus did)
  • a new race to play (Naga probably) - with a framework of adding new wow races down the line, like pandaren, forsaken, and many of the other races.
  • a complete balance check of the entire game from the ground up.
-
That's what I feel can still be a realistic way of seeing 2.0, it's a very large update and in ways, paves ways for its future and remakes its past.

Now to be clear, 2.0 could be even bigger than that, perhaps they redo all the reforged art in Blizzard itself etc, but while that is possible, it's less likely than working with what they have already. (I for one, like the reforged models, they are the cinematic style of wow, I just wish Blizzard would have worked on them personally)

What my dream update would be to bring me back to Blizzard:

Now, finally here is what my dream would be and what would bring me back into believing in the future of Blizzard, however, from here on out, it probably is not realistic for a 2.0 anymore, but it's what would be required to give me any hope in the company and its future:

  • New reforged environment graphics and updated models.
  • New and improved lighting with raytracing (or stylized lighting that looks extremely pretty)
  • Upscaling technology DLSS and FSR.
  • All previous assets completed, with lots of new ones added to add ambience to the redone campaign missions, and the capability to create amazing custom maps.
  • AN ACTUAL REFORGED CAMPAIGN with new missions in the campaign as originally promised and new voice acting (as promised) - THIS IS A MUST
  • An ingame shop which adds skins from wow and could bring new reimagined expansions for the wow timeline in RTS form, such as wrath of the lich king and the assault on stormwind and icecrown. (think event types like hearthstone)
  • New redone UI.
  • A new map editor, with many modern features, including loading of new normal maps simply, emission, some environment sculpting capability, 3D camera control etc.

This would lead the way for full remakes of warcraft 2 and 1, or could be expansions you could buy for warcraft 3 reforged, and again, they could add new expansions for each expansion of wow, reimagining it in RTS form.

In conclusion:

Yeah, people will call me crazy, and clearly everyone has lost their hope in any kind of improvement of any kind it seems, but whatever, that's my take, and no, I'm not expecting it, but I do feel it is a realistic way of looking at what 2.0 means, considering all the previous software and games I have played that have implemented a 2.0 or 3.0 etc. Large version number shifts are meant to signify a huge shift in what made the previous version what it was, blender is a good example of this. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a blind optimist, but Blizzard has hurt me enough that I don't care if they mess up, warcraft 3 reforged was the last nail in the coffin to me. I and many others gave up hope in Blizzard many years ago. That does not mean, that Microsoft feels the same way about Blizzard, Microsoft probably realizes the potential income that could come from reviving this IP.

Here, I believe in Microsoft and it's goals to make money and revive and sustain the brand of warcraft, nothing more. Everything from the poll given after the acquisition of Microsoft, the leaving of boby kotick, the new leadership of Blizzard, the way microsoft keeps reviving older games and creates new versions of them for new profit, the reintegration of Netease into Blizzard, the fact that 2.0 is only reserved at Blizzard for large expansions, all of this points to a large meaningful update.

I am cautiously optimistic that this will be something big, and if it's not, it's not. My life does not revolve around one game.
 

tillinghast

Banned
Level 49
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
696
My life does not revolve around one game.
your life revolves around writing essays about games you don't care about, isn't it? you should start a youtube channel, you'll do gangbusters there

Blizzard will put out a long post saying "we've heard all your suggestions and basically we're gonna do what's best for us"
and they will release the most uncalled for, out-of-touch, greedy, unwanted and unneeded bunch of crap their coked up owners could come up with
Reforged 2.0 features:
-always online, game and editor won't start if offline
-have to bind your wallet to it and pay every time you start game or editor
-have to submit all your personal info and all your accounts everywhere and they will check them daily for stuff
-every time you press "save map" in editor it locks it up and sends your map to Blizzard to check for undesired content. If it's found they'll remove the license from you but you can buy it again. What is undesired content? It's for them to know and for you to find out
-a bunch of new natives i dunno i don't play wc3, chicken footprints resized or whatever

you all will bitch and moan but then buy it anyway
 
Level 31
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
1,457
Here is a different perspective:

New editor features would only come hand-in-hand with new content, because they are made when a level designer asks for them.
Nearly the same thing with visuals. Graphics improvements are only made because an artist or level designer needs them.
Because all of this is a bit much to ask all of a sudden, I think they would be focusing on stability and preparing a game pass release.
But, regardless of whether 2.0 is a big or a small update, the number change alone makes me hopeful that they are preparing long-term support and restarting with 2.x makes more sense.

Also, not that it matters but I think its being outsourced. Hopefully to people who care.
 
Level 15
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
148
you all will bitch and moan but then buy it anyway
I bought it when the first demo of Chronicles of the Second War came out. Reforged sucks, but this fan-made campaign doesn't.
For now, the best thing Blizzard can do with the game is to keep it in its current state, so that existing mods and custom campaigns won't require substantial rework. Of course, they should release a fix for those poor schlimazels with Macs, who can't even launch the game!

Also, not that it matters but I think its being outsourced. Hopefully to people who care.
This already happened once. Without proper direction this could lead to another mess.
 
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I bought it when the first demo of Chronicles of the Second War came out. Reforged sucks, but this fan-made campaign doesn't.
For now, the best thing Blizzard can do with the game is to keep it in its current state, so that existing mods and custom campaigns won't require substantial rework. Of course, they should release a fix for those poor schlimazels with Macs, who can't even launch the game!


This already happened once. Without proper direction this could lead to another mess.

Lemon sky only created models according to what Blizzard wanted. Its very common in the industry to outsource this. No normal studio is capable of producing hundreds or thousands of models within a few years.
 
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Lemon sky only created models according to what Blizzard wanted. Its very common in the industry to outsource this. No normal studio is capable of producing hundreds or thousands of models within a few years.
There are about ~1000 models in classic warcraft 3. (including units/buildings/decorations/spell effects)
 
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Lemon sky only created models according to what Blizzard wanted.
Exactly. Outsourcing is not the problem, but both the internal and outsourcing art teams were definitely misguided by Blizzard's lead artist for Reforged. I have a huge respect for the person in question, since they defined the visual style of StarCraft, but vanilla WarCraft 3 was very much Samwise Didier's child, and the remaster should have stayed under his artistic guidance.
 
but Blizzard has hurt me enough that I don't care if they mess up,
I doubt that you are correct. I suppose you can be hurt more, and that you are simply not being fully self-aware.
Reforged sucks, but this fan-made campaign doesn't.
Prior to Reforged Beta going live, some idiots at Blizzard put the beta publicly on a server similar to version 2.0.

So Blizzard was probably going to announce the beta at BlizzCon, but instead the first folks to show it off on YouTube were Russian hackers who were getting 300,000 views per video ( maybe $100as-$1000s of dollars in YouTube revenue? ).

The Russian hackers sent the Reforged model files to an autistic Israeli man, who dissected them and wrote a parser, which he passed to me so that I could upgrade Retera Model Studio to support Reforged models, which for a year or more was on a separate thread and not the Retera Model Studio download page, since I had simply titled it, "Retera Model Studio Reforged Hack." But my program was first to market because of the Russian hackers. Then, at that time, the CSW team paid someone called tw1lac (who didn't even have Reforged and only had 1.31) to do a bunch of upgrades to Retera Model Studio and make "the tw1lac version," which actually works, since I didn't care and wasn't helping them. And that's how a lot of CSW art was made - in the tw1lac fork of my software.

In the meantime, rather than doing serious Reforged modding I used the Retera Model Studio code to build a game engine so that I could play my maps without Bobby Kotick's permission or something.

This is really, really rebellious and ridiculous! Most likely corporate will hate us, and shut down CSW - purely by accident, because they don't care about it. This is the world you bought into when you bought Reforged.

@tillinghast gets it, it was nice to see a reasonable post from a talented artist on this thread amidst all the wild and crazy out of touch stuff
 

Deleted member 238881

D

Deleted member 238881

PLOT TWIST.
They silently watched and learned from HIVE community. Now they will make wonderful changes which in major part will be stolen ideas from HIVE. 😀
 

Chaosy

Tutorial Reviewer
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PLOT TWIST.
They silently watched and learned from HIVE community. Now they will make wonderful changes which in major part will be stolen ideas from HIVE. 😀
Unironically not completely implausible as far as 'features' go.
I think they need a graphical update, I think the style they choose is way too divisive and graphics sell, it's the easiest way to show a casual that changes have been made.

Will this happen? probably not, but it's interesting to think about
 
personally, I get why people are so pessimistic, I have also all but lost my faith in Blizzard, however, even if I am one of the only ones in the 1%, I am...cautiously optimistic, now people will call me an idiot and stuff, but 2.0 means something huge is coming in my eyes, why?

Why 2.0 means something big could be coming:

Warcraft 3, throughout its entire lifespan from start to finish, has stuck into the 1.0 framework even reforged did not merit a 2.0 version. When looking at Starcraft 2 the only time new version numbers were added was after expansion packs, huge packs with full stories, a new race and new maps. When looking at software, like Blender, look at the huge leap from 1.0 -2.0 and then 3.0, including eevee, ray tracing, full from the ground up new code base etc.
When something becomes 2.0 it usually means a complete overall of what is seen, or at the very least the most wanted features a game/software has.

Now this probably still means nothing to people regarding the version number, it could just be a mistake (very...unlikely, as this type of mistake has not been seen by Blizzard once, and would be stupid as a joke honestly) but anyway, the other things that have been happening around warcraft 3 tells me that this is not a mistake.

Why reviving and updating warcraft 3 reforged makes sense for microsoft:

Let's start with something simple Blizzard is no longer Activision, it's no longer owned by Activision and bobby kotick is no longer the CEO, Microsoft owns Blizzard now. At face value, this might not mean much to people, just another large company owning a different large company, but look at how carefully microsoft looks after its classic games and the fantastic remasters it brings out to its various IP'S of old, with new races, brand new visuals and gameplay improvements. I am 100% sure that microsoft is fully aware of how bad the name Blizzard now is, they have stated that they want to look back into the older games of Blizzard and its IPS and that they wish to do justice to them. Might be empty words, but microsoft has a knack of continuingly trying and reviving old IPS with success. Look at the new age of mythology, the remastered age of mythology and age of empires etc.

Now take into account the survey Blizzard sent internally a year back, about what players want, the most wanted features, etc. Most of that 70% of it is implemented now, clans, custom games, ranked play, player profiles etc. Is it perfect? no it's not, but it is there, so the survey checks out. There are only a hand full things not implemented yet, firstly, redone reforged model graphics, redone reforged environment graphics, updated classic grathics, and finally updated campaign and editor. These are the only ones left.

Another thing of note here is that the chinese company, Netease that split with Blizzard and broke down statues in China due to kotick and how he treated them, has now reintegrated into Blizzard, again, might not seem much, but Asia is the top consumer of RTS Esports, especially korea and China, and they are one of the top microtransaction monsters in the world, which I promise will be appealing to Blizzard, again more money.

Outside of companies, another very important announcement has been made, warcraft direct is coming this year for the 30th anniversary, it's the best time to announce a remake of the original reforged remake and push for a better future for the warcraft RTS game, to acknowledge previous mistakes and start to rebuild the Legacy of warcraft and Blizzard.

Most of all, it makes no sense for Microsoft to hold onto a brand as powerful as warcraft, and to continue to tarnish it, when they could make millions from the IP. This remake of a remake, could bring old players back, bring new players into the IP, like it did with us in 1990 and even up the subscriber count for wow. The company, has no possible way of losing if this succeeds.

What I expect from 2.0
I am cautiously optimistic, not 100% excited about it like I was for reforged, I just feel logically, taking into consideration everything noted above, this is not going to be a small update.

So what do I expect, at the very least?
  • New reforged environment graphics
  • completed reforged assets (such as face animations)
  • New skins that can be bought in a new in-game microtransaction shop - generates new income, gives interest in the game and its future.
  • A new map editor.
-
This would align with a 2.0 update, and would be a realistic seeing of what could be implemented in two years work of a small team and the funding of Microsoft, but if I were honest, 2.0 signifies something...much bigger since not even reforged was a 2.0 update, I expect a full team is actually working on this update.

So here is what I expect, still within realistic expectations for what 2.0 means in a software way.
  • New reforged environment graphics.
  • upscaled Warcraft 3 classic mode textures.
  • improved lighting and shaders
*Completed assets, with new assets and skins (perhaps to be bought or unlocked)
  • a new map editor (with modern features...like emission maps and capability of 3D camera's to control like in 3D software)
  • new reforged UI
  • new in-game microtransaction shop (adding skins and things like the original pre-order bonus did)
  • a new race to play (Naga probably) - with a framework of adding new wow races down the line, like pandaren, forsaken, and many of the other races.
  • a complete balance check of the entire game from the ground up.
-
That's what I feel can still be a realistic way of seeing 2.0, it's a very large update and in ways, paves ways for its future and remakes its past.

Now to be clear, 2.0 could be even bigger than that, perhaps they redo all the reforged art in Blizzard itself etc, but while that is possible, it's less likely than working with what they have already. (I for one, like the reforged models, they are the cinematic style of wow, I just wish Blizzard would have worked on them personally)

What my dream update would be to bring me back to Blizzard:

Now, finally here is what my dream would be and what would bring me back into believing in the future of Blizzard, however, from here on out, it probably is not realistic for a 2.0 anymore, but it's what would be required to give me any hope in the company and its future:

  • New reforged environment graphics and updated models.
  • New and improved lighting with raytracing (or stylized lighting that looks extremely pretty)
  • Upscaling technology DLSS and FSR.
  • All previous assets completed, with lots of new ones added to add ambience to the redone campaign missions, and the capability to create amazing custom maps.
  • AN ACTUAL REFORGED CAMPAIGN with new missions in the campaign as originally promised and new voice acting (as promised) - THIS IS A MUST
  • An ingame shop which adds skins from wow and could bring new reimagined expansions for the wow timeline in RTS form, such as wrath of the lich king and the assault on stormwind and icecrown. (think event types like hearthstone)
  • New redone UI.
  • A new map editor, with many modern features, including loading of new normal maps simply, emission, some environment sculpting capability, 3D camera control etc.

This would lead the way for full remakes of warcraft 2 and 1, or could be expansions you could buy for warcraft 3 reforged, and again, they could add new expansions for each expansion of wow, reimagining it in RTS form.

In conclusion:

Yeah, people will call me crazy, and clearly everyone has lost their hope in any kind of improvement of any kind it seems, but whatever, that's my take, and no, I'm not expecting it, but I do feel it is a realistic way of looking at what 2.0 means, considering all the previous software and games I have played that have implemented a 2.0 or 3.0 etc. Large version number shifts are meant to signify a huge shift in what made the previous version what it was, blender is a good example of this. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a blind optimist, but Blizzard has hurt me enough that I don't care if they mess up, warcraft 3 reforged was the last nail in the coffin to me. I and many others gave up hope in Blizzard many years ago. That does not mean, that Microsoft feels the same way about Blizzard, Microsoft probably realizes the potential income that could come from reviving this IP.

Here, I believe in Microsoft and it's goals to make money and revive and sustain the brand of warcraft, nothing more. Everything from the poll given after the acquisition of Microsoft, the leaving of boby kotick, the new leadership of Blizzard, the way microsoft keeps reviving older games and creates new versions of them for new profit, the reintegration of Netease into Blizzard, the fact that 2.0 is only reserved at Blizzard for large expansions, all of this points to a large meaningful update.

I am cautiously optimistic that this will be something big, and if it's not, it's not. My life does not revolve around one game.
I want whatever you are using right now xD
 
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Well damn I really want to be optimistic for this...here is my list of stuff I HOPE they do:
-Fix WE Special Effects not playing in preview
-Add more GUI Triggers/Jass Functions
-Add New Ability/Item Icons
-Add New Models

Honestly the problem with reforged IMO is that they should have used the WoW models/icons in the first place, this would have made it a lot easier and cheaper for them to release the game and people probably wouldn't complain.
 
they should have used the WoW models/icons in the first place, this would have made it a lot easier and cheaper for them to release the game and people probably wouldn't complain
The social medias and the YouTube's, in my opinion, would've laughed even harder if it was made with WoW models.
Free to play would be nice for more players, other than that or fixing the spaghetti code I hope they just stay away from this game
I wonder how it would go if Reforged did a patch to un-integrate with Bnet 2.0 launcher. The integration is rather cheesy. What if Reforged 2.0 was just the Reforged graphics updates and campaign, but with the old Frozen Throne menu?

The point of Lions Gate and WebUI on Reforged is to bean count when players launch the game and check them for payment. But Warcraft 3 was running fine for 18 years without that, and the Patch 1.31 showed us that this new Reforged engine can still simulate the old menu - and when it does the game launches up a lot faster and is snappier since its just a DirecrtX program and not a web browser parsing a huge javascript page!!

So, if they published Reforged graphics and campaigns onto the old menu, and basically make the game a standalone EXE again that people can bootleg, now that Microsoft owns the game they can still bean count how many people play it anyway using the stalkerware features of Windows, while maximizing user benefit by making it seem like users can easily bootleg - by nuking that blasted web menu!

Also, the nature of custom maps as MPQ format internally means MPQ format cannot be escaped. So what if the classic art is dumped back in a War3.mpq style format, and only Reforged art is moved around so much into CASC?

I think it would be really interesting to see changes like that. But I know that a self interested corporation is not capable of thinking in that manner, as we saw with Activision.

Edit: "Except for original Blizzard," I should say. Technically a self-interested corporation did act in that manner. In 2008-2009 when Activision bought Vivendi stuff and created Activision Blizzard, someone probably from original Blizzard, for SOME REASON, released an update for Frozen Throne which made the game no longer ask for "Please insert your Warcraft III CD into the CD-ROM drive" so that the game could be digital download, digitally copied, and reach a broader audience. This probably required that person to have guts, tremendously strong guts, to tell managers the game should serve users in this manner. Probably hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands more games of Warcraft III were played because of that person's decision.

So you could imagine someone at Microsoft might have guts, too, but I don't think so. Their guts are busy taking over ChatGPT, and ruining other products their company purchased, like Skype and Minecraft.
 
Last edited:

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
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Messages
27,287
My concern with Microsoft updating Warcraft III is that Microsoft has a very bad track record of caring about moders. Each remaster they produce, and even some patches, are completely incompatible with third party content made for previous releases. For a game like Age of Empires this is fine since most of the game is the base game with modded content and players being a very small minority, but Warcraft III is the opposite.

They could overhaul the game and release significant and regular new melee content including DLCs, maps, balance changes, e.t.c. But doing so they might break most custom maps with every single patch they release.
 
Just give us back the orginial Warcraft 3.
For some people this is the meme. But it turns out, Activision doesn't know what "orginial [sic]" means.

Do you even know which version you consider to be the "original?" Can you list a version number?

Given any version number you can list, some current player has a problem with that version. Classic Games team incrementally moved towards Reforged by making patches. Some were good. Some were bad.

1.22:
  • only does 4:3 resolution
  • return bug exploit available, easy to put virus in map
1.26:
  • only does 4:3 resolution
  • return bug exploit available by using 15 lines of code instead of 3, so these days its still easy to put virus in map
1.27:
  • same as 1.26 except that Reforged "classic games" folks recompiled the game to start making new patches.
  • they practiced compiling the same code with some Windows 7+ focus instead of WinXP, and some different instruction set no one cares about
1.28:
  • Now the new team moved files around. Game license key ("CD key") was previously stored in War3.mpq in a file called "font" so hackers dont find it (fonts are boring) but starting with this patch, it moved outside the game to simple files "roc.w3k" and "tft.w3k" to prepare for the unannounced Reforged.
  • Game now secretly installed using Battlenet 2.0 downloader loaded in parallel to the game, which always copies the same War3.mpq to every computer (hence why it cant be customized with CD key)
1.29:
  • the virus return bug stuff is patched up, now even the 15 lines of code cant do it
  • the game is changed to have 24 players available in map files instead of 12, which introduces a bunch of technical bugs in custom maps
  • the game now supports 16:9 widescreen play. the reforged team (lemonsky) is paid for new art that spans the widescreen border, made to look exactly in the theme of the old game so it smoothly fits in as if "the old game" was always 16:9 widescreen (it wasnt)
  • new API functions are added for custom maps
  • some new bugs are introduced; if you disconnect in multiplayer the new widescreen UI stretches the "portrait" face across the whole screen like crazy
  • The game data storage for patching is totally removed ("War3Patch.mpq") and now instead we have to redownload the entire 2GB of game for the update, despite it not all changing, because of the format failing to interoperate legacy versus "Bnet 2.0" activision
  • This patch changed how game EXE windows apps were organized. Instead of "Reign of Chaos" and "Frozen Throne" as two programs that load a shared binary, now there was only one game binary. A new button is added on the menu to the right of "Single Player" that has the icon of the other game (RoC/TFT) and switches which one we are emulating
1.30:
  • the game data storage is moved from War3.mpq old format to newly be stored in CASC storage, the Activision format for doing incremental updates. To pretend the old system is still in place, the CASC contents are a folder named "War3.mpq" which contains those files that historically were in the "MPQ" Blizzard format storage (instead of the new Activision format that they are now)
  • This patch encrypted multiplayer networking on Battle.net menu button, so that it fed through Battle.net 2.0 transitional Activision system. This killed all the "hostbots" and permanently prevented them by using Activision encryption technology
  • If I recall the network change maybe also meant that multiplayer operated "cross realm" rather than being realm locked
  • This patch eliminated the storage distinction between Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne - in so doing, some Reign of Chaos specific assets were lost from the game data (Priest icon, etc)
  • This patch or maybe the one before it included minor changes to the built in Campaign Missions. The changes were made using World Editor. Unfortunately, due to a bug in World Editor from 18 years ago, the simple process of opening and saving the original files damaged them. Heroes in several missions can no longer pick up items, which is detrimental to the Campaign experience
1.31:
  • This patch said in the patch notes, "this is the last patch before Reforged," because by this time the name "Reforged" was quite public
  • This patch changed how custom maps load so that there were two optional VMs: lua or "jass" (the original warcraft 3 map script language), instead of only "jass"
  • This patch moved all files in game storage again. The folder in the Activision storage system called "War3.mpq" was renamed to "War3.w3mod" to try to distinguish itself from the old Blizzard era formatting. Technically MPQ was named after a guy who quit Blizzard to make Guild Wars years ago.
1.32:
  • This is the patch who shoved the game behind the "Reforged menu"
  • so I'll stop my rant here because I assume you don't care about it

So you see, when you say "the orginial game," the technology folks at Activision have no idea what you're talking about, because from their perspective it was an incremental process from here to there!

It's so bad, you don't even know how bad it is. They cannot put it back, because they have no concept of where to go. Some folks on Hive think 1.31 is the old game, and would rant and rave about 1.26 or 1.22 being ancient, 4:3 resolution trolling!
 
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1,957
But the social media and the humans at large outside of War3 social spaces changed. They all looked at Reforged, and used it probably more for entertainment laughing at software glitches, feature removals, and bad management, than for even trying to actually play it. And then they went back to their lives, concluding that Warcraft III was dead to them.

And so I began to look more negatively at social media than at Reforged.

Anyway I know that because I haven't the power to fight social media, the best things can be is probably where they are now. Through social media, I humiliated myself online, and became like unto the lowest of the low, these last two years.
Ah social media. Then hear me this please, because this is kinda connected to our matter here.
See, I have a blog about environmental protection and tropical islands for years. I was writing a research on many projects at university, master studies then decided to write this all in blog, article by article. And to shorten story, last year I got over 100 my articles that appear on the first page on Google. Then from two years ago, I was administrator at one facebook group about selling private islands, the only administrator except group's creator. That group has over 20 000 members, a lot of real estate agents, scientists etc etc... and I have only facebook account of all social networks, just left it for this purpose so I can post my blog articles in the group so thousands of people can see it. From time to time I shared my articles in my own profile so people can read them.

Then, after two years of working normally, suddenly the owner of the group, who is professional real estate agent, who had company in Wall Street, now works in Miami, sells island of 28M$ CANNOT ANYMORE POST HIS OWN ASSET IN HIS OWN GROUP because stupid system/bot/whatever shit thinks that this is spam! And after many times trying to contact them at facebook staff, man has literally to shut down group because nobody replied him! (they would reply if he has paid something). Pay-to-survive situation, you can operate for years, one bug and you are done, noone to reply you.

Why I am I telling you this? This is now interest part, point of all this. The group closed, I had to write an article on my blog about this (to inform public), and shared this to my own profile on facebook. MAN! NOBODY CARED! EXCEPT FROM MY FIANCE I DID NOT GET SINGLE REACTION! BUT WHEN I WAS ON THE VACATION AND POSTED THE FIRST PICTURE ON THE BEACH I GOT TONS OF COMMENTS AND LIKES! A few days ago some local product was backed up in our country because of ,,foreign substance" (read- some kind of poison) and it was on news article, I shared it on my profile so people can see and avoid it, and i got just two reactions! My real life friend who is mad at country, gree and corruption and cant find a proper job and mad because of that is constantly daily releasing pictures on facebook from coffee bars!

You can fuck them, poison them, steal from them, raise them taxes, give them hell but leave them ability to release daily pictures from vacations and coffee bars and stupid reels and they will be fine. Those braindead electro-shocked modern people will be fine. And you know what, give them those wireless headphones so they can cover their ears and shake with heads like junkies, and walk on the street while watching on mobile phone like zombie, then wonder why shits happen around in reality.

Retera, those people, most of them do not literally see where they are walking on streets because of those applications/social networks on phones and wireless earphones, they got distracted by that all the time, yet you expect them to fight for something and even use some basic logic. They became zombified comsumer society, so no wonder why Microsoft/Blizzard in this case will take advantage of it. There are always people who will pay for whatever craps anyone especially Blizzard releases to them and be fine with it.
 

Deleted member 238881

D

Deleted member 238881

Unironically not completely implausible as far as 'features' go.
I think they need a graphical update, I think the style they choose is way too divisive and graphics sell, it's the easiest way to show a casual that changes have been made.

Will this happen? probably not, but it's interesting to think about
I was joking, but if this turns out to be true it would be somewhat great. Yeah somewhat because of "stolen ideas" part.
 
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Messages
981
Well damn I really want to be optimistic for this...here is my list of stuff I HOPE they do:
-Fix WE Special Effects not playing in preview
-Add more GUI Triggers/Jass Functions
-Add New Ability/Item Icons
-Add New Models

Honestly the problem with reforged IMO is that they should have used the WoW models/icons in the first place, this would have made it a lot easier and cheaper for them to release the game and people probably wouldn't complain.
WoW is garbage pal, no one wants that unless people who love garbage games such as WoW
Don't relate WC3 to WoW, WC3 is actually an astoundingly great game (talking about the original WC3 obviously)
 
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Messages
1,737
@raypack man I really have no idea if WoW is good or garbage as you say but these numbers don't lie:
chrome_V4QQcC5KW3.png

I was just saying instead of wasting budget on new graphics etc. they could have gone with WoW graphics and use those models/icons.
If minimal changes were done to the game, they might have solved the current problems of Reforged etc.

again this is just a speculation lol
 
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Am I the only glue eater that is expecting new abilities/units that allow for more quirky effects without needing too much coding?
Every discovery in the Object Editor (the Spell Book, the passive with cooldown) brought so much more to the table, in so many creative ways, all I'm expecting for is things like that Circlet of Nobility thing that allow for cycling which attribute would get a bonus, wondering how something like that would make life easier for more interesting characters.

Maybe I'm a fool looking for new toys in the sandbox, instead of chasing for a magnifier to melt the sand and make glass with it.
 
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