The Lost Grimoire v0.5.1

[Cigaro]

First off, I gotta say that your mix of tilesets is very cool. The Lordaeron Winter grass works really well with Black Marble and Cobble Path. Also, the Dark Dirt terrain has some cool edges that make it very suitable for various combination.

Since the Dalaran Ruins trees are darker than the Lordaeron Fall trees, they go well together with the Lordaeron Winter trees in a gloomy theme like this one. The cemetary and city type doodads are great and the map is not overloaded with them. You've also got a good eye for details like the Barrens rock pillar and the mushrooms.

===

I can foresee some troubles with the gameplay. Obviously you meant for this map to be small, but the short distances will heavily favor particular strategies. For example, militias become stronger since you can easily free the gold mine or even attack the enemy base. The distance to the opponent's base is about 10 % shorter than it is on classic Blizzard maps, the one to the gold mine even 20 %.

Several creep camps are too close to your base. I've used a single Ancient Protector located within in my base to clear out four(!) camps:



You can also pull the dragon camp into your expansion.

===

The item drops are a bit off. The lvl 14 camp at the merc camp should only drop a lvl 2 item, not a lvl 3. The gold mine camp also drops a lvl 2 despite only being lvl 12. he lvl 17 dragon camp in the corner should only have a lvl 3 item instead of a lvl 4 but it's debatable.

The camp in the center drops a Book of the Dead (guaranteed), which is definitely in tone with the map, but also totally bonkers. Also, it's on a creep with possession (-> debate you've had about this with deepstrasz). Though it never tried to possess when I farmed it.

Some of the creep camps can be rather aggressive when you walk by. I haven't tested them all but I'm sure that this one will be trouble, for example:



The creep camp at the gold mine should be set to normal, not camp. Otherwise you can build towers there and after killing the camp with them, the towers already become part of the new base.

The camp with the four murlocs has no anti-air. I don't know if that's really an issue because it's only lvl 8, but perhaps add one of those Murloc ensnare-types instead of a flesh eater.



===

PS: You forgot critters

In summary, it's a beautiful map, but would not be suited for tournament play – it still may be tons of fun for a friendly 1v1 of course. I would like to check out another one with the same theme that's bigger. Generally speaking, anything under 84 x 84 playing size will probably never work.

Also, I recommend using the yellow grid as a help to make it perfectly symmetrical.

 

[Nudl9]

It's mostly an experimental concept map. Balance wasn't a high priority when making it. Neither is symmetry. The intention was to make a short, but sweet one.

I think if anybody tries to milita rush you there are 3 camps you can pull on them so i don't think that will be a problem really.

I fixed most the camps with your feedback and some from Dandaelpanda's stream.

Regarding goldmine aggro.
I mean sure you can abuse towers, but it's such a small map that if you try to do anything greedy, it's easy to punish players due to the small distance.
For example if you do an expansion i can simply do the red camp.
So from my experience with the map you rarely have time to expand.
If you can make an expansion faster with towers that might even be positive.

The camp in the center drops a Book of the Dead (guaranteed), which is definitely in tone with the map, but also totally bonkers. Also, it's on a creep with possession (-> debate you've had about this with deepstrasz). Though it never tried to possess when I farmed it.

Theres a reason it's called "The Lost Grimoire", implying the item can be lost. It's a high risk high reward camp thats supposed to end the game if you clear it.

 

[deepstrasz]

Mine guarding Burning Archers don't start with full mana. Heroes and player units do.
Phew, I was actually nervous this map having Grimoire of Souls on one Wraith.

Approved.

---

If you want more reviews, you should participate in the The Grand Review Exchange!

R U L E S

Site Rules
Map Submission Rules


M A P - D E S C R I P T I O N

Details

BB CODES
BB Codes | HIVE

MELEE MAPS
Description Guide - Melee Maps
Describing Your Melee Map
Melee Map Description Generator v1.3

MAPS IN GENERAL
The importance of a Description
Description Guide - Maps
Map Thread Guide
Map Description Making: Good & Bad
Map Description - Templates
Map Description Generator [1.2]

How to Add a Screenshot to your Map Description

ADDITIONAL NECESSARY INFORMATION

• A credits list in the map thread description is required where the names of the resource (models, skins, icons, spells, sound etc.) authors are mentioned along with the specific resource. It would be a luxury to have links leading to the used resources. Credits in the Quest Log would be appreciated too.
  
• A detailed changelog in the first post would be helpful to reviewers and notify fans about the newest implementations to your map.
  
• Map thread tags are important. Please use those that fit and not more or none.

M A P - C R E A T I O N - G U I D E S

Details

GENERAL MAPPING
A Beginner's Guide to Map Making
The Ultimate Beginners Terrain Tutorial
Advanced Terraining Tutorial
A Guideline to Terraining and the Hive's Terraining Section
Various Terraining Tips!
Basic Mapping Video Tutorial
WE Map Editor for Newbies!
The Path Of Proper Map Making - What to do and what should be avoided

MELEE MAPPING
How to create Melee Maps
General - Melee Maps like the Professionals
Competitive Melee Map
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps

PATHING
Pathing - Everything about it
[Terraining] Alternative Pathing Technique

LEAKS
Triggers - Memory Leaks and Custom Scripts

If you're not satisfied with the review and wish another opinion, contact the other reviewers or use the staff contact:
Paillan
twojstaryjakcie
Daffa the Mage
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/staff-contact.692/

 

[Nudl9]

That seems to have been fixed a long time ago.

 

[WolfFarkas]

It's mostly an experimental concept map. Balance wasn't a high priority when making it. Neither is symmetry. The intention was to make a short, but sweet one.

I think if anybody tries to milita rush you there are 3 camps you can pull on them so i don't think that will be a problem really.

I fixed most the camps with your feedback and some from Dandaelpanda's stream.

Regarding goldmine aggro.
I mean sure you can abuse towers, but it's such a small map that if you try to do anything greedy, it's easy to punish players due to the small distance.
For example if you do an expansion i can simply do the red camp.
So from my experience with the map you rarely have time to expand.
If you can make an expansion faster with towers that might even be positive.


Theres a reason it's called "The Lost Grimoire", implying the item can be lost. It's a high risk high reward camp thats supposed to end the game if you clear it.

And I was trying to understand the green creeps simetry route, until by luck read that explain.

I really hate to down 1 star, because I really like this map

 

[Nudl9]

And in your head what do you think is wrong with it?

 

[WolfFarkas]

And in your head what do you think is wrong with it?

That Red player has the creep level 9 more near to creeps level 8 and 7, while for blue, the creep level 9 seems like very far away from the level 8 and 7.

or what I just pointed with yellow lines in my first post.

 

[Nudl9]

Yes, but how are the camps to creep in terms of gameplay?

 

[WolfFarkas]

Yes, but how are the camps to creep in terms of gameplay?

The levels and drops seems fine overall.

- I like camps with 1-2 undeads units so you can hit them with holy ligth with the pala.
- I like the level 4 creep.
-I like the banshee red creep L21, you can miss the book but have a charged L2 as reward too. I like that concept.
-I like the mix murlocs / water elementals, nice way to use murlocks in orange camps.

The only creep I wouldnt do myself is the L11: 3-4-4 near the mine, looting a level 3 , that seems very rewarding.
trolls have medium armor 450 hp. murlock has heavy 400 hp. so the murlock is better as tank unit, the troll is damage role, but the loot is in the troll.
I didnt the test , but if you memorice the camp, I would try to solo creep it with the blademaster with windwalk then run (that was the idea??).

I mean when I design the AOW spots with L13 with 4 units like a 4-4-3-2 looting a perma L3, I feel I am in the limit line. (and the L4 unit with 550 HP).
In fact one user complained of a L14 creep mine looting a perma L3, that it was very easy to creep.
So I think that L11 could be L13 or L14.

And also I remember @mafe poiting in one of my maps, (dont remember wich one) that a L12 creep is a curse, to hard for a perma L2, to easy for a perma L3.
perhaps you should ask him, since he is the map reviewer and always "pointing" the loot.

 

[Nudl9]

The level of a camp doesn't determine how hard it is, it's the creep themselves.
Cannibals and healers take longer to creep and increase creepjack chance exponentially.
If item drops are hard to balance, that's where the tomes come in, since they work like half-drops.

Anyway the real point i was getting to is that P1 has harder greens than P2 because they are more cramped and in chokepoints.
Where as P2 has more open camps, easier access to shop.
So overall creep placements don't matter, because the map is so small.

 

[WolfFarkas]

The level of a camp doesn't determine how hard it is, it's the creep themselves.
Cannibals and healers take longer to creep and increase creepjack chance exponentially.
If item drops are hard to balance, that's where the tomes come in, since they work like half-drops.

Anyway the real point i was getting to is that P1 has harder greens than P2 because they are more cramped and in chokepoints.
Where as P2 has more open camps, easier access to shop.
So overall creep placements don't matter, because the map is so small.

yes of course level alone, doesnt say nothing, thats why I pointed the armor type and hp. (but there are some who focus in level, or did a level creep and loot guide,I remember a youtuber reviewer checking levels of all creeps and skills,, and I just get the habit to make them happy).

And I was thinking that P1 has easier access to shop after expand. But since is equal (almost equal) distance to main, I dont mind it.

But If would try to make this ladder I would:
1- simetric greens, to have happy all guys who simetry focus (XY: 1030: -555 perfect distances)

2- put 2 gob. shops simetric since Swamped Temple had mandatory to put 2 gob. merchants, so is like that is almost a rule (except for Echo Isles it seems, but I have a tendency to dislike EI and all their clones, except your map Upstream that was a great execution, well I also liked a bit Southshore).

3- copy paste the creeps from some LV Blizzard map, since there are tons of new recipe creeps haters, and that goes special with the gob. merchant wich their creeps dont sleep. But hey I dont mind, I put skeletons and revenants in Drakkari Domination so I really screw it with that rule.
I doing a new 1v1 slowly, and I am just copy pasting TS LV creeps. After 16 maps I got really tired of design my unique creeps camps.

No need to delete this one, you could make an LV version, and have 2 versions of the same map, like Swamped temple (wich has 4 versions)

I think for a small map, to many greens, you usually creep 2 greens and then jump to the orange, so perhaps you could make disappear the asymetric ones.

 

[mafe]

Yes indeed the creepcamp level alone does not always tell the whole story. I usually use as an indicator nevertheless, with the implicit assumption that the composition of creeps is somewhat standard. Of course something like a single granite golem would not be your regular lvl 9 camp.

What creeps exactly are you talking about here?

 

[Nudl9]

Trueshot Troll + Skeleton Searing Arrows.
Easy to kill, but has pretty high damage.

 

[mafe]

My spontaneous tendency would be to say that this camp (lvl 6 troll + two burning archers) is indeed easy to kill and therefore should not give a too good reward (i.e. no lvl 3 item). Access to the gold mine is also some kind of reward.

But it's not clear cut.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Yes indeed the creepcamp level alone does not always tell the whole story. I usually use as an indicator nevertheless, with the implicit assumption that the composition of creeps is somewhat standard. Of course something like a single granite golem would not be your regular lvl 9 camp.

What creeps exactly are you talking about here?

Trueshot Troll + Skeleton Searing Arrows.
Easy to kill, but has pretty high damage.

EEEhhhh? NO, Re-read my post and you will see I said Murlock

I wasnt talking about the goldmine creep camp. I was talking about the L11 creep camp near the mine with the
2 L4 dark trolls and 1 L3 murlock with the hide at nigth skill, looting a L3.

the mine creep to me is fine since the item is in a L6 troll with 750 hp.