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Is modding still worth it?

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Hello everyone,

i want a few different opinons: Is it still worth to make mods for Reforged? I kinda see 2 main problems with it.

1: Many people are disappointed with reforged , and righlty so in my opinion. So are there even enough people that would play these mods?

2: Blizzard now owns everything that i do with the editor. Wich means i would work for blizzard without getting paid basicly, right?

I would love to continue to make mods, but (mainly) these 2 things really m,ake me think if it's even worth..?

Would love to hear your opinion on that, because i am quite unsure.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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Apart from many threads like this, you should just consider the facts...
Do you like what you're doing, does it make you happy and feel not like wasting time?
Do you expect to earn money from modding a game, generally speaking?
What is your main concern that actually stops you from map making? Have you created a story that you want not to be involved with third parties like ActiBlizzard? If yes, then the safest thing to do is to keep it out of their stuff. No, or it's fanfiction? Nothing to worry about since only the ideas are yours and they can't copyright ideas.

For me, it's mostly that Reforged killed mapping as we knew it and made it worse, tending to force us to only use the game's resources.
 
Level 8
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TL;DR: legal obstacles to modding are not what you think they are regardless of what most people say. Then just follow what deepstrasz said.


The "new EULA" didn't introduce the "steal your stuff" clause, and i remember it was in the policy when i first started modding (2017~). Regarding copyright rights, you don't lose current or future copyrights just by signing the EULA or the Custom Game Acceptable Use Policy. Repeat that 30 - 40 times. On most legal systems, a contract that is fundamentally a license like the EULA or the policy doesn't have the aptitude to generate a de facto assignment of rights ("you sign it, you give them your rights") like ie. a programming service contract or a work contract. These are called "work for hire" hypothesis (the owner becomes the employer or the contratist just by virtue of the contractual relation) and are an exception to the general rule: the owner of each copyright right is the author in its ordinary sense.
So in the end the "all your stuff belong to us" clause means that you just assume an obligation to assign them (give them), eventually, shoud Blizzard is interested. Before you do such assignment in favour of Blizzard, any copyright rights (assuming you have) belong and stay in the material an original author (ie. the map modder, the icon maker, the composer, the programmer). Most of you haven't been contacted by Blizzard regarding your stuff so simply assume full ownership like everyone else. These assignments must be freely negotiated and i will bet you have constitutional and legal protection of your interests like any other author.
Make no mistake that this is clearly annoying because you are still binded to Blizzard in some way. Maybe you are interested in transfering your copyright rights to a publisher or else.
Other IP rights like trademarks and patents and trade secrets have much less practical importance here and follow a similar pattern. Trade secret protection regarding protected maps can be a thing. Maybe.
This is an interpretation assuming the clause is actually enforceable.


But the "new EULA" did change some key stuff. The thing it did, that has substantial effect regarding our situation as modders, was that we no longer get an implied derivative work license by accepting the Custom Game Policy. Before the update on the policy, there was a clause that allowed the signers to "recreate" some Blizzard games. That clause is no longer on the policy. You must keep in mind that the EULA expressely prohibits "derivative works" of their games and platforms, so you can get a picture of our legal status as modders as people that edits and adapts Wc3 games, lore, and assets without express copyright license to do so. The scope of this can of course be discussed (ie. we are allowed to use the editor by signing the EULA, the natural use of the editor is adapt and transform Blizzard games and assets).

I don't know if Reforged modding is a thing. I don't plan to order it or give it any attention as of yet. I also don't know the new rules that apply there (if any).
 
I have nothing against the revised EULA, in fact I don't give shit about these new rules like "You can no longer protect your map" or "We own your maps now". What made me less interested in modding this game nowadays is the fact that the community have been divided since the release of Reforged, some people plays HD Reforged, some plays SD Reforged, and some people refuse to update to post-Reforged patches, it's just hard to find an audience now, it was easier before because everyone plays TFT not like what it is right now. It also breaks my heart that Blizzard's trying to wipe all possible ways of getting the classic, I heard they recently botched PTR 1.31.

The Reforged Editor (In my opinion and in my experience) is a buggy mess, it inherited the bugs that 1.31 had and lots of the bugs are not yet fixed, and new bugs have been introduced. It also doesn't respect HD monitors anymore, the window scale (of the open map window) is just out of the screen all the time. My last complain about Reforged Editor is that when you open it it breaks the older version World Editor, this was not a thing back then. (Before, you can open your maps in 1.27 even if you saved your map in 1.30).

Another reason why I'm less interested is the lack of campaigns in Reforged, who knows how long it will take Blizzard to return campaigns in this game, it feels like there are only 5 employees working in this game right now. I won't be surprised if they still haven't fixed the shadows in the classic graphics of Reforged, the patches seem to focus more on Reforged mode and less on classic mode.

I hope I wasn't very offtopic, sorry for the rant, sorry if I offended Blizzard employees who read this. I'm just heart broken and I lost my motivation, modding this game was once my hobby, nowadays I'd rather play and mod other games rather than this game.
 
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Level 3
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First off all: thanks to everyone who has replied here! I really do not need a giant crowd to play my mod, but knowing that I am the only person to play it does feel a bit weird. You invest so much time and effort. I do not expect a new Dota, i think that is almost impossible. But I would love to see a few people liking and playing it on a regular basis.

To say one thing about the new EULA, you don't know how Blizzard acts once they find out your mod is good and a lot of people play it. Maybe they try to find an agreement with you, maybe not. But since I know how much work I want to put into this, I don't want to take any risk.
 
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It is not worth to mod until Blizzard updates the current EULA to give enough rights to you. The Reforged game is now not very suitable for modding because of the not well developed patch (fetal bugs unfixed, missing promised contents, etc.).
 
First off all: thanks to everyone who has replied here! I really do not need a giant crowd to play my mod, but knowing that I am the only person to play it does feel a bit weird. You invest so much time and effort. I do not expect a new Dota, i think that is almost impossible. But I would love to see a few people liking and playing it on a regular basis.
There will always be someone who plays it. Just look at the recently uploaded maps.

To say one thing about the new EULA, you don't know how Blizzard acts once they find out your mod is good and a lot of people play it. Maybe they try to find an agreement with you, maybe not. But since I know how much work I want to put into this, I don't want to take any risk.
Even if it becomes quite popular chances are they won't care.
 
Level 19
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Art is a form of enlightenment. Whether others can share the feeling or not is irrelevant.
When you listen to music, you don't always need a community with you, do you?
so you've never been interested in authors, never followed a single band, never joined none of fan sites? then sure people have nothing to do with this kind of enjoyment.
Meanwhile you can't be satisfied with the project you're the only user of.
You listening to somebody's music, he didn't write it down for himself and listening on repeat for hours. He published it. Exactly the same way as mapmaking does.
Human does everything just because of other humans. Remove other humans, make it to an unhabitat island, and you will feel the emptyness as never before.
 
so you've never been interested in authors, never followed a single band, never joined none of fan sites? then sure people have nothing to do with this kind of enjoyment.
Meanwhile you can't be satisfied with the project you're the only user of.
You listening to somebody's music, he didn't write it down for himself and listening on repeat for hours. He published it. Exactly the same way as mapmaking does.
Human does everything just because of other humans. Remove other humans, make it to an unhabitat island, and you will feel the emptyness as never before.
Of course people don't do everything based on others opinions. People do all sorts of things for self accomplishment purposes, personal growth, a sense of achievement and so much more.

My father for example is a classical painter who has never in his life held an exhibition, doesn't show his paintings to anyone and generally only paints as a hobby. He doesn't care what other people think of his paintings.

Many of my friends are exemplary musicians, and they too are like my father. They do not play in bands, show off their music online, hold concerts or anything else. They play because it is their hobby.

When I first started making maps I didn't know of any map making communities. I made maps that I never intended to host on battle.net, and had no intention of sharing with anyone. Why? Because I liked making maps, and that's what it's all about :p
 
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First off all: thanks to everyone who has replied here! I really do not need a giant crowd to play my mod, but knowing that I am the only person to play it does feel a bit weird. You invest so much time and effort. I do not expect a new Dota, i think that is almost impossible. But I would love to see a few people liking and playing it on a regular basis.

To say one thing about the new EULA, you don't know how Blizzard acts once they find out your mod is good and a lot of people play it. Maybe they try to find an agreement with you, maybe not. But since I know how much work I want to put into this, I don't want to take any risk.

Just like most authors in the world that put copyright disclaimers on every stupid shit webpage and know their rights, you just must ASSUME you have such rights. This includes not only people that make maps, but icon/skin makers, model makers, etc. Sin JASS programming language is not copyrightable, you can even include code here, altough copyright protection to code has a reduced scope compared to other creative works.
If there is no assignment agreement between you and Blizzard, then the copyrights and other possible IP belong to you because of what i said million times. As you are talking about risks, an indubitable risk i see is that you are binded to perform such assignment of rights eventually, which can be detrimental if you want to assign your rights to person different from Blizzard (ie. a publisher). These assignments, in general, are hardly ever free of charge and you just must ASSUME your IP is commercially valuable should Blizzard contact you to perform the assignment. Copyright law often contemplates, either expressly or implicitly, a right of due remuneration for authors, and guess what, you could be one if you make maps. So the "new EULA clause" will not frustrate your interest in getting money if that is what you are worried. Your interest to control the direction of the work could be frustrated though as a broad assignment means you could lose ownership per each right assigned in favor of Blizzard, as long as you are binded by the EULA and the Custom Games Use Policy.
 
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Level 3
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So the "new EULA clause" will not frustrate your interest in getting money if that is what you are worried. Your interest to control the direction of the work could be frustrated though as a broad assignment means you will lose ownership per each right assigned in favor of Blizzard.
Loosing control of my work worries me the most. Loosing money, if I gain anything in the first place, which is not my primary target, isn't really in my mind. But knowing that someone else takes control of MY work really bothers me.
 
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That is assuming the negotiations with Blizzard end up in you assigning each right possible to them. Remember that until the assignment materializes you have control because you are the owner.
Also moral rights like ie. the paternity of the work ("WC3 Mod by Lykass") and to control its integrity, on most systems can't be assigned at all, regardless of what a contract says. You can check the status of moral rights in your respective copyright law.
The right to make derivative works is very important in this creative control respect and can be assigned as normal though. This could mean that Blizzard could make a "WC3 Mod by Lykass 2/Enhanced Edition/Reforged/Definitive Edition" and you don't.
 
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Of course people don't do everything based on others opinions. People do all sorts of things for self accomplishment purposes, personal growth, a sense of achievement and so much more.

My father for example is a classical painter who has never in his life held an exhibition, doesn't show his paintings to anyone and generally only paints as a hobby. He doesn't care what other people think of his paintings.

Many of my friends are exemplary musicians, and they too are like my father. They do not play in bands, show off their music online, hold concerts or anything else. They play because it is their hobby.

When I first started making maps I didn't know of any map making communities. I made maps that I never intended to host on battle.net, and had no intention of sharing with anyone. Why? Because I liked making maps, and that's what it's all about :p
lol
what is "self accomplishment" is? are you incomplete or what? Or you want to be "higher" tier than you are inside the society? So there are no "self", there are "other seeing me". As well as no personal growth (what the point of being a king of the inhabitat island? But YOU'RE THE KING! YOU ACHIEVED IT BY DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Wanna try this? CAn you enjoy it?
If you do paints for yourself, wasting your time in change for relax, concetranation or whatever, that's one thing. Development can be your yoga, for sure, but for many people it's still a hard task which doesnt let your head to be empty.
For sure you can do the job with no sense for quite some time. But the longer you goes, the harder to keep going, as our brain is autotrained to get rid of everyting which doesn't help you in any way. Time, very limited resource, for everyone, is everything. I feel bad for wasting my time disputing that as well, for instance. Yet i'm driven by the desire to display my own knowledge and experience with OTHERS. Just like map creators who would like to see their resource being played.
 
lol
what is "self accomplishment" is? are you incomplete or what? Or you want to be "higher" tier than you are inside the society? So there are no "self", there are "other seeing me". As well as no personal growth (what the point of being a king of the inhabitat island? But YOU'RE THE KING! YOU ACHIEVED IT BY DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Wanna try this? CAn you enjoy it?
If you do paints for yourself, wasting your time in change for relax, concetranation or whatever, that's one thing. Development can be your yoga, for sure, but for many people it's still a hard task which doesnt let your head to be empty.
For sure you can do the job with no sense for quite some time. But the longer you goes, the harder to keep going, as our brain is autotrained to get rid of everyting which doesn't help you in any way. Time, very limited resource, for everyone, is everything. I feel bad for wasting my time disputing that as well, for instance. Yet i'm driven by the desire to display my own knowledge and experience with OTHERS. Just like map creators who would like to see their resource being played.
Not sure what you're on about. I am not disputing the fact that most people make maps to share with others. I also advised the thread starter that he will always have some people who downloads and plays his map if he uploads it to the Hive.

And then I also say that I disagree that all we do is based on other people's opinions. Sometimes I feel great about myself when I do a hard task in offline single payer games when there's nobody around. Your "king of an island" metaphor is flawed, and its rationale falters due to a false narrative. The point has never been to be a king, so why would I suddenly want to become a king when I'm on an island? The point is doing the things I enjoy, regardless of others. If I can continue doing the things I enjoy while being stranded then that's great! Sucks to be stranded of course, but it eases the isolation a tiny bit.
 
You can hold your hope as long as you have one.
I don't really have any hope for a huge modder base, but there will always be a small amount of people who keep modding and making maps.
My metaphor is there are no point in mapmaking as long as you creating something with no chance to be seen
Well again, this is your personal opinion that you have based on your own motivation for making maps. If your sole motivation is acknowledgement and approval of others then why haven't you moved on to more popular things like Unreal engine or Unity where you can reach millions?
 
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I don't really have any hope for a huge modder base, but there will always be a small amount of people who keep modding and making maps.

Well again, this is your personal opinion that you have based on your own motivation for making maps. If your sole motivation is acknowledgement and approval of others then why haven't you moved on to more popular things like Unreal engine or Unity where you can reach millions?
just like money amount, at some point you dont care, be it 100 millions or 100 billions, or be it 1k or 1000k fans. I never wanted to be a star, but doing something useful for others is my keen
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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Human does everything just because of other humans. Remove other humans, make it to an unhabitat island, and you will feel the emptyness as never before.
Tell that to monks, lol.
I listen to some of my music now and then. I make it for fun mostly, not expecting too many people to listen to or even like it.
It's meaningless in the end, everything we do. When the sun goes out or when the galaxies get farther away from each other, we'll surely not be there to worry about any silly feelings.
I never wanted to be a star, but doing something useful for others is my keen
Then be a doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, construction worker, lawyer, you name it!
Actually, do me some laundry.
 
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Tell that to monks, lol.
I listen to some of my music now and then. I make it for fun mostly, not expecting too many people to listen to or even like it.
It's meaningless in the end, everything we do. When the sun goes out or when the galaxies get farther away from each other, we'll surely not be there to worry about any silly feelings.

Then be a doctor, policeman, fireman, soldier, construction worker, lawyer, you name it!
Actually, do me some laundry.
You mean those who believe in some higher power while humanizing those supernatural objects, believing those give a shit about humanity? Yeah, totally sane persons.
as I said, you've done some music, but do you keep doing it for years?
I write lyrics as well, never published a thing, but I do that when I have a stroke of passion or something, not because I had a boring evening. And the map cannot be finished as fast.
if I had no skills whatsoever for sure doing smbd's laundry would be my kind of business
 

deepstrasz

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as I said, you've done some music, but do you keep doing it for years?
I've been doing it for more than 10 years, yeah.
I write lyrics as well, never published a thing, but I do that when I have a stroke of passion or something, not because I had a boring evening.
Art is not a replacement for boredom. It's experienced when there is feeling for it, as you wrote.

EDIT:
You mean those who believe in some higher power while humanizing those supernatural objects, believing those give a shit about humanity? Yeah, totally sane persons.
We are alone anyway. It's just our perception that we are individuals. We're made of the same primordial matter, we act similarly. We not be clones but we're part of the whole regardless.
 
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For me the whole reforged and eula fiasco left such a sour taste that I switched to Unity. So far no regrets.

I don't think that i am skilled enough to do everything on my own with such an engine. Do you think that 'Unity' is any good for starters or people that don't know to much about it?
 
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I don't think that i am skilled enough to do everything on my own with such an engine. Do you think that 'Unity' is any good for starters or people that don't know to much about it?

I had only some basics in C# and it is managable. You gotta start small of course. But at least basic knowledge of programming principles like variables, classes and such is required I'd say.
 
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I had only some basics in C# and it is managable. You gotta start small of course. But at least basic knowledge of programming principles like variables, classes and such is required I'd say.

Okay, I think I can handle the basics quite well so I guess I try it out as well.
 
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It's not an easy question, and as others mentioned, it really depends on what you are looking for when modding the game.

Yes, the biggest current issue is that the community is divided.
Although I have the feeling it was already there before Reforged, and that it only made it worse.
In the WorldEdit Help Zone, you keep seeing people still working on very old versions of wc3.

I left the community when patch v1.24 was released and came back with Reforged, and it seems many things happen in the meantime making people start to refuse some patches, not just 1.32, anyone can tell me why ?

As for the other points mentioned in this thread, I don't think people should focus on the "new" EULA, and I pay attention to what @disruptive_ tried to explain.
In the end, no, Blizzard will not steal your work. Why ? Because they don't care.
If you really start to make something so amazing that it attracts too much attention, All you have to do is take the standalone game route, knowing you'll have to replace everything that is related to Blizzard content with no exception, before being able to do that split.

If you are not expecting such a popularity jump, especially with this divided community, please don't stop modding just for the sake of this EULA, it is irrelevant.


Now about the reasons we actually mod this game to start for :
- in most cases people love modding to start with.
- most modders do not really seek popularity
- bu they seek recognition for their hard work
- you won't get a huge amount of recognition from a community of other modders that need to spend more time on their project than on testing yours, whether they love it or not. Oh you will get recognition if you do something good enough, but don't expect an endless wave of fans.


Lastly, my personal experience. I came back FOR Reforged. And yes I am disappointed like many of you guys are.
But no, no way I would go back to the TFT days. To be honest, I have no love for the old outdated graphics. And although I have to admit they were outstanding considering the limitations, and that current graphics are just OK considering the much less heavy limitations of today's technology, ... well the old models are still ugly, sorry if I offend potential lovers, but even with a lot of good will I can't fake my brain in considering a group of 5 cubes and 6 triangles to be a hero as easily as with the new models. I still find them beautiful, whatever melee visual impact they might have.

OF course I have never been a melee player, so I am blatantly biased.

Also about my personal modding experience, it has always been a kind of mental drug for me : find obstacles that seem really hard to get through, and try to find ways through nevertheless. Succeeding is not even as important as trying. I take it as a much more constructive hobby, especially when confined in the pandemic context, than wasting time watching TV.

Of course I could be doing similar things that are much more useful, but they would not be as exiting.


My final advice is : only give up if you are already fed up with map making, thats the only meaningful reason I could find.
 
I left the community when patch v1.24 was released and came back with Reforged, and it seems many things happen in the meantime making people start to refuse some patches, not just 1.32, anyone can tell me why ?

Yes. I played on and off since 1.24. I can tell you why.

As you probably know, Patch 1.23/1.24 were thrown together hastily to fix a major security flaw in the game. Patch 1.25 and Patch 1.26 changed almost nothing besides a few unit health values and obscure programming regarding what happens when Hex is cast on a unit who is already affected by Metamorphosis. These patches were releasing in roughly 2009 and between that 2008 era of modding up to and including the first 2016 patch from the new team, I used the same game installation on my computer and just copied it when I got a new computer. It was a 20GB Warcraft III installation because of all the maps and user files, some of which were copies of files going back to 2004 for me.

So if you can imagine there was a time of tremendous stability in what I expected from the game due to a complete lack of changes. To me, personally, Patch 1.27 did not appear to change much. It was released because the discovery was made that the fatal security flaw 1.24 meant to fix was at its core not fixed. So, this patch was pushed out I assume mostly to deal with the security problem. In hindsight, some players said the first version of 1.27 corrupted the game's order ID list, so that any trigger that fires when a unit is told to use a specific item ability like Build Tiny Altar of Kings now would not fire the trigger. Also, any trigger that commanded a unit to use that kind of item ability would no longer function. So, for a few rare and obscure custom maps, important custom game behaviors quit working. But I think this issue was addressed either in 1.27b or 1.28.

Then Patch 1.28 released and this would be when people started really questioning what they were being given. There was a tool called the Jass NewGen Pack (JNGP) that ran on a hacked version of the 1.21 World Editor files to add tons of custom behaviors to the World Editor such as syntax highlighting, the vJASS language extension, customizable unit IDs, expanded tileset editing, batch importing of many files in a sane way superior to the Import Manager, and an object editor text colorizer. This was the bread and butter of World Editor for some users.
But Blizzard developers moved the location of the encrypted installation keys on Patch 1.28. As a result, the Patch 1.21 World Editor files can no longer function with Patch 1.28 because they look for the game license keys and the keys are not found.
Along with this, Patch 1.28 added a new launcher application to the game that felt like weird DRM without a particularly good explained purpose. Supposedly it was to help them with releasing updates. When Patch 1.28 launched, it did a horrible thing and tried to copy my 10 GB of custom map files into the My Documents folder and I was informed in advanced by other users it does this without asking. I was concerned about losing my files to their weird, new system so I think I copied them all out of the game during update so that it would update quickly.

Then Patch 1.29 came out and required players to redownload the entire 1.5 GB of the game all over again. Apparently their smoother update system was actually worse. This also had the side problem that it did not always work correctly. I was never able to successfully patch any of my computers to 1.29. It would destroy the installation and then I would just reinstall the game. Patch 1.29 wanted to add good things. The game now had support for 16:9 resolution with 6 Console UI tiles instead of 4. Artistically this was the beginning of a much better 16:9 gameplay experience. At the same time, 1.29 changed the format of files inside of the game further. Naga Buildings had the location of their linked "birth animation model" moved to a new location, so all Custom Naga Building Assets in custom maps would no longer have a birth animation and were just invisible. Other assets moved around like this. A new MPQ was made called Deprecated.mpq to indicate which files Blizzard planned to remove from the game.
New functions were added to the map scripting API. This included improved ways to interact with the cooldown and tooltips on abilities, as well as the function to reposition special effects so that maps could make unitless missile systems with better performance. However, communication between World Editor users and developers was slow and limited. There was a new function added called BlzGetLocalUnitZ around this time because players were hoping for a way to access all of the height information on a unit, even the occlusion offset of a flying unit over trees, which is a number that still cannot be accessed even in Reforged. This was too confusing to the developers so in a later patch they added a second function BlzGetUnitZ that returns the same value as BlzGetLocalUnitZ, which also doesn't help solve the problem of determining flying unit visual ingame height.
The new Special Effect APIs had similar problems. The function called BlzSetSpecialEffectX modified the Y value as well, resetting it to weird default values. The functions for Pitch, Yaw, and Roll confused the axes so that you had to do matrix multiplications in userspace to correct the math and show a simple projectile with both pitch and facing angle. This wasn't fixed until two patches later in Patch 1.31, by which time users complained to me that the fixed version broke their maps because they had worked backwards to do the userspace matrix multiplications.
[Edit: Patch 1.29 also added the option for maps to have up to 24 players, but this changed the integer constant for "Neutral Hostile" player to be the 25th player instead of the 13th player. This broke every single custom map that had been touched by "Vexorian's optimizer" (which was a 3rd party tool that players referred to as "protecting maps" because it corrupted the map enough that the World Editor would crash from it, but not the game). I forgot to mention this because I almost never was in a game of Warcraft 3 with more than 12 players at a time to date, and so I think I forgot about this while I was writing this up.]

Then after this, Patch 1.30 was released which killed any remaining modding tools for the game. To get World Editor syntax highlighting in the Trigger Editor, a player named MindWorX had made a hack tool called World Editor EXtended (WEX) that supported Patch 1.28 and 1.29 similar to the old JNGP modding tools. Now for Patch 1.30, Blizzard hired him so that he stopped making his tool. He added some of the features of the hack into the game using the sourcecode access he now had, but he never added back syntax highlighing in the code editor. So it was never the same after 1.30.
Also in 1.30, Game data was now stored in the newer system, not in MPQs, and the Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne were merged so that all Reign of Chaos specific assets were lost from the game database. Reign of Chaos now was only strictly a separate ruleset for unit statistics. However, there was a new in-game option added back on 1.29 that allowed the user to play with the Reign of Chaos menu and unit stats, so it was still very much meant to be available as far as player experience. But people noticed things such as, "the Priest icon changed" and related issues because internally there was no longer a distinction between War3.mpq and War3X.mpq game databases. It might be for the better; merging these two removed a lot of redundant files inside the game.

I complained on 1.30 because the change to the game data to no longer use MPQs meant that it was the end for modeling tools whose developers were gone. This includes tools such as Magos War3ModelEditor, Mdlvis, and my own tool at the time:

Other big point of contention in the community at the time was that Patch 1.30 completely changed the Battle.net infrastructure under the hood. Now all the internet traffic was an encrypted channel and games were hosted on Blizzard servers. So, the "port forwarding problem" that prevented nontechnical users from hosting custom games became a thing of the past.
In its place there were a lot of bugs that the players just had to wait for another patch to resolve. Blizzard made a new system for sending the map to other players under the hood in how Custom Games played. So you would sometimes try to join a custom game, see a blue download bar, get a warning the download failed, join the game anyway, and then download the map from within the lobby using the older code. There was also a bug where selecting a game and pressing enter wouldn't join anymore, but pressing the Join Game button would join. Or maybe I have that backwards. Everything always felt untested, like the developers had two teams and this was the less important one. So we always joked amongst ourselves that this was the B team, and surely the A team was working on Reforged.
This encryption added to the network traffic also removed the "hostbots" so that all games in the games list had to be hosted by another player from inside the game. Some people complained and didn't like this because it took away their competitive stat keepers for custom games and took away their ability to have their game host bot offering the game both on Battle.net and also on their other illegal third party services, or so I'm told. There may also have been a financial incentive for complaints, since some people were undoubtedly making money off of third party custom map servers.

It was about this time the insiders started promising us there would be a Patch 1.31 that resolved all user requests. It went live to PTR and added customizable UI and additional map scripting APIs for dynamically changing unit and ability editor data, as well as the option to code maps in lua which was faster and better than the JASS VM because Blizzard did not want to invest resources updating JASS to be competitive as far as peformance.
In my opinion Patch 1.31 was a mixed bag. I tried to use the UI apis to make a map where all heroes had up to 9 inventory slots instead of up to 6. It was literally impossible and I gave up. After the PTR, when Patch 1.31 went live it had changes that were not on the PTR, including a change that would do irreversible damage to any custom map that you opened and saved with the editor. There was a hotfix after the first week, but it still felt a little bit like a kick in the nuts to anybody who lost their custom maps. Also, it would only destroy maps with over 1000 custom strings, so you could use the editor on small teat maps and it seemed fine until you opened your real maps that you really care about.

At the same time, 1.31 gave players the ability to reach new heights in modding. I got to play Minecraft as a War3 map on 1.31 that someone created, and it was even able to load and save the block worlds.

This would've been literally impossible on older patches for a long list of reasons.

And that, I hope, answers your question how we split the community and why some players pick and choose older patches.
 
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Wow Retera... thank you so much for spending so much time explaining all this to me, you have no idea...

I actually had figured out some of the things you explained, and experienced real problems with my old 1.24 map just before the official Reforged release. Since then I have caught up on many things, and realized how some natives (like the UI ones) had many issues, something I was not used to in the past. But well I take it as a challenge and so far I didn't do too badly. Fact is, even if some things definitely refuse to work (some of the messed up tooltip features for example) but overall there are still new amazing things that can be done, the Minecraft map you are showcasing is a very good example. When you give people enough tools, they can achieve unexpected things !

But besides what I guessed, I had no idea about the modding history you just detailed. This explains so much. I also now understand where your attempt at a 9-item inventory came from (I saw it on official Reforged forums).

I definitely understand why the community is now divided . I have to admit it leaves a bitter taste considering how committed this community has always been (even more when I wasn't around!).

I suppose not having endured all these hard times with so much hard work ruined repeatedly, has made me positively biased towards Reforged as I just got attracted by the new looks and feel. This said, I don't regret jumping back into modding, I hadn't had such a good (sometimes painful ^^) experience since 2004. The fun thing is back in 2004 I was considered as a "know-it-all" for many wc3campaigns members, and now I feel like a complete newbie, but this is in fact refreshing, and I keep being gobsmacked at what the community has achieved in my absence, even if many of these wonderful things do not work anymore.

The talent of people, their hard work and dedication will never cease to amaze me, and I have immense respect for all contributors. In fact, the game might not the same anymore, but in spite of the divisions and the despair of some dedicated fans, I still feel the community has not really changed... maybe there were more people leaving out of disgust, but luckily things will improve in the future (I hope I am not too naive there).

Thanks again for your time and these information, much appreciated.

Take care !

PS : please, oh please don't give up on updating your wonderful Model Studio, don't forget it hold all hopes for many wannabe modelers like me who want to learn and cannot really achieve much on their own. I believe you DID make it available at the right time, although you said you felt it was far from being finished. Just know that your work is anything but vain, you can see by yourself how many people keep using your Model Studio.
Anyways not trying to be pushing you, just want to make sure you don't give it up, take all the time you need to improve it whenever you feel like it - not like we reward you with donations for your time :D -
 
The community has always been divided for reasons out of blizzards control.
There has always been a huge community running pirated old versions of wc3 that are still lost in time at patch 1.24. People are cheapskates.
It has been like this for many years. This is not entirely blizzard's fault.

On top of that its also our fault. Our fault for simply refusing to accept a few downsides and embracing all the new features given to us.

Do all these features come way too late? God damn yes!
Are the guys releasing the day-to-day tools we have always used gone? Also yes.
Do I miss the days at which everyone agreed on the golden standards of Wex/Newgen? Maybe.


But I just cant deny that all the 1.3x features, especially the UI natives and new keyboard and mouse events are fucking amazing!


We should just start to get our heads out of our own asses, quit whining and start mapping again. Its now better than ever.

I really hope blizzard will give us the still missing features back and finally implement syntax highlighting in the editor, but I accepted working around these issues for now for all the benefits 1.31 gave me.
 
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Yes that would be nice for sure.

I can consider myself as lucky as I am coming back, this means I didn't experience any frustration, and in some ways, just happily discovered the new features.
I was disappointed when I realized the World Editor had hardly changed since I last used it in 2004, but I also noticed the little changes that end up to be huge.

Thats why I can't even imagine sticking to per-reforged versions, and I can't imagine stopping my hard work to create original and new content, for the simple reason that it is enjoyable.

This said I don't feel like blaming those who refuse to accept what they were given, as I have to admit many things were not a match for what was expected, and what lead me to understand this is watching the 2018 demo recently.

On the other hand, reading through Reforged official forums, it saddens me that so many have respect for the hard work of those who worked hard on the game to reforge it, especially considering the conditions they had to do this work

Can people imagine how it feels to work hard and having your work treated as crap, even though some of the work you have done is truly impressive ?
I suppose if this whole Reforged had been made by a big team of passionate modders, people would cry and praise them like gods. But just because these people were hired by Activision, they threw all their hate to the developers rather than the company (or at list for the majority).
 
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Oh trust me I feel really bad currently about the lack of Custom Campaigns.

Back in the days at wc3campaigns (the name was for a good reason^^), there was this really talented and active modder who made impressive custom campaigns.
he was called Darky26 (then 27, 28 I guess he updated his name every year ^^) and was a model map maker for all of us.

I have never been obsessed with campaigns, but I have always loved to play some from time to time, and when these were adding original and unique stuff to the plate, I remember being amazed and exited. Very often, people working hard enough to make appealing campaigns end up being an inspiration to every one else in the community.

I am confident Blizzard will not forget about these, but they might be a bit ashamed with what they came up with, in comparison to what the community is able to deliver.
I am actually very impatient to see the custom campaigns return. Really very much.
 
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I experience a better and more intrresting Editor. I am having more fun with it now than before. I only make maps for the fun of it and have no interest in making a big deal out of it. Nothing had changed for me, except for the better.
 
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*french Macadamia nut trying to process Draco's message to find out the level of sarcasm*

While we talk about politics, I don't know what Trump is doing, and what he does does little to affect me (fat least so far!), especially because I am nearly never hanging around social media :D
 

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I experience a better and more intrresting Editor. I am having more fun with it now than before. I only make maps for the fun of it and have no interest in making a big deal out of it. Nothing had changed for me, except for the better.
Right, if you only do it for yourself but if it's supposed to be played by others as well in multiplayer->desyncs and stuff.
Also, I'm glad for you but you're a subminority.
The point of a community is to share.
 
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Modding Warcraft 3, one of the best games of all time? Absolutely!

Modding Reforged, the janky, bloated yet somehow also gutted Chinese bootleg of Warcraft 3? Not really, especially with how much more limited you are.
 
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Everyone has his reasons. I left Warcraft III 16 years ago.

I came back for Reforged and I don't regret it. Not that I have no complaints, don't get me wrong !
But the thing is, if Reforged did not come up, I wouldn't have event thought about returning.

Fact is, graphics matter in games. At least for me.
Well after playing Warcraft 1 and 2, I went to Civilization as I though a game rather had to be clever than beautiful to be worth anything.
Dam I was so young and proud !
Fun fact when Warcraft III was released, I left Civilization and jumped in because of the graphics :)
 
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Hey guys I've heard you dont like Trump's political actions. Well I dont know what he's doing, I have no interest in making a big deal out of it. But last year I've got my drive license, that's a good one for me. Nothing had changed for me, except for the better.

huh

Edit: Are you really butthurt because i personally enjoy Wc3 reforged? OP asked a rather personal question imo, which I answered. I am deeply sorry if I offended you. I will try not to do that again.
 
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To be honest, and to try to close the debate, I guess modding wc3, reforged included is definitely still worth it.
If not why would we even be debating this ?

It's not because wc3 was the best game in its time and that Reforged definitely isn't that we should all feel less passionate about it.

Divided community ? In practice yes, but in the end we are still modding the same game, just from different perspectives.
Tolerance is a state of mind. It defines educated minds.
Frustration and anger are coming straight from the instinct and is then driven by the animal part of us.

Humanity has only progressed when putting everyone's efforts in common.
We have to stand together accepting each other's preferences with open minds, and try to use this focal point as an anchor to achieve better things.

Errr., wait... believing in fairy tales is not a crime, is it ?
 
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Is modding still worth it?

Hard to say honestly. I was pretty excited for the release of Reforged as a breath of fresh air into the community, but it ended up being far more divisive and destructive than I could have imagined. They made users pay to receive a worse product than the one they already had, with the flipside of never returning to the old product.

The game is a buggy, slow, and flavorless piece of shit currently. The updates to improve the community and the system have broken tons of maps and stymied custom campaign creators from working on their projects. The artistic improvements I personally don't care for, and the game has lost its cartoon fantasy charm. I don't blame many people for keeping their 1.26 patches installed.

The real question is: Will Blizzard continue to tinker with Reforged, and what does that mean for us?

My advice? If you're interested in modding this game, give it time. I spent hundreds of hours working on projects in the 1.26-1.29 patch era. Every time the game updated to a new patch, it broke my map to become unplayable. I can't tell you how much I wish to dive in and get back to work, but I would rather wait for them to reach a stable long term patch instead of going under the hood and making substantial changes to the editor and the online clients every single month. Don't get me wrong, I load up every patch they put to see if they've fixed all the custom games they've broken and if WC:R doesn't clip every 3 seconds, but honestly WC:R is going to be closer to being done in February 2021 than the release date of Februrary 2020.

As far as an audience for your mod? Hiveworkshop has persisted a looooooong time, and even if 90% of the current audience leaves we are still talking 10,000+ people who could see your map. Warcraft 3 and TFT were extremely popular and have had a robust and dedicated community. The only way the community sinks is if Blizzard throws up its hands and quits, and even then we may have a new cycle of community made programs pop up to fix the buggy polished turd Blizzard presented to us on a silver platter.

If you're really interested, work on smaller projects to build skills and familiarity until we reach a stable patch, or simply wait for Blizzard to un-fuck their cash grab. Dropping 100+ hours into a map that gets broken by the latest patch will tilt you off modding like nothing else.
 
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flavorless piece of shit currently.

There is a lot of wisdom in your post, I have to give you that. But why keep the anger ? You know it is not going to help, right ?

You seem to really love this game with a big heart, as many do. But why let the disappointment and frustration drive you ?
Yes Reforged is a disappointment overall, yes Blizzard fucked up. Or shall I say the "Activision Blizzard Corporate Greed" did not respect the community.

But would you sincerely believe the developers who worked on this are a bunch of incompetent useless people ?
Is the remaining Blizzard devs (and even the 3rd-party designers they used) work complete garbage ?

For some reason, if all this was made by community members, people would be gobsmacked like this like this was gods-craft.
But just because they were paid for it, it suddenly deserves 0% recognition ? I disagree.

As far as there is a lot a do not approve in the way Blizzard as a whole has conducted this, I still respect the work of the devs or the design team, whoever they are.
I won't punish them with my childish frustration and primal rage. I will be taking patience and hope for improvements.

As you said patches always broke something so that part is not new, but I will never judge someone's work too harshly unless I could do better.
You don't know how the devs feel right now, do you? You don't know what they had to endure from their managing suits, do you?

Do you really think they hate or don't care for the game ? You obviously don't think all that because you seem to believe improvements might happen in the future.
So why do Reforged-frustrated people always throw their anger at the devs rather than the suits ?
 
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huh

Edit: Are you really butthurt because i personally enjoy Wc3 reforged? OP asked a rather personal question imo, which I answered. I am deeply sorry if I offended you. I will try not to do that again.
that's right, and I already joined Minnesota's protests to show how much I hate you by destroying other people's livehoods.
 
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