Is modding still worth it?

[verstefyren]

that's right, and I already joined Minnesota's protests to show how much I hate you by destroying other people's livehoods.

You are making absolutely no sense.

 

[DracoL1ch]

You are making absolutely no sense.

You're enjoying reforged, you're immune to any sense

 

[verstefyren]

I think your attempts at looking smart with kewl try-hard non-related euphiemisms say more about you than me.

Must I include "even though I am deeply disappointed in Reforged and wish all this could have turned out differently" in every sentence, without having some kid trying to look smart? I mean, look at your response one more time haha.

 

[deepstrasz]

You're enjoying reforged, you're immune to any sense

I think your attempts at looking smart with kewl try-hard non-related euphiemisms say more about you than me.

This is getting off-topic.
Have a private chat.

 

[DracoL1ch]

I think your attempts to read my mind say even more about your sanity than mine, have a nice day reforgot.

This is getting off-topic.
Have a private chat.

on topic - should I still mod or not?

 

[verstefyren]

This is getting off-topic.
Have a private chat.

Well, I was just responding to a "contributor." I think behaviour like DracoL1ch's is whats actually making me enjoy reforged more. Additionally, it is what makes this forum deteriorate. One can't make a thread reply without being hammered by some comment about, well, you can scroll up and see for yourself.

Right, if you only do it for yourself but if it's supposed to be played by others as well in multiplayer->desyncs and stuff.
Also, I'm glad for you but you're a subminority.
The point of a community is to share.

Yes, I am not talking for anyone but myself here. I am aware that overall, the game has been changed for the worse. But for a hobby-modder like myself who only play games with my friends because I mainly make maps which other people wouldn't understand (local names and storeis etc), the editor and game is just fine.

And I obviously can't stress this enough: I am sorry for you other guys!

 

[Jazztastic]

There is a lot of wisdom in your post, I have to give you that. But why keep the anger ? You know it is not going to help, right ?

Thank you for the compliment, and for disagreement as well. I will try to hit each piece of your response

You seem to really love this game with a big heart, as many do. But why let the disappointment and frustration drive you ?

I do love this game. I have played it for far too long. I was very optimistic and hopeful when WC3 started receiving updates, and was over the moon when I heard about the PTR. The Reforged announcement was fantastic news too. Unfortunately, I paid money for a very subpar product, and I am disappointed about it. As I said above, this could have been a breath of fresh air into the game. Keep the audience, grow the audience, and provide new tools, updated infrastructure, and guaranteed longevity for the game. I do feel disappointed because I think it has had a large detrimental impact on the player base, the modding base, and my own ability to enjoy this game. I haven't given up hope, just the opposite. I feel that Reforged is unfortunate currently, but Blizzard has actually shown good faith in continuing updates. I hope to seriously explore this game, but I believe it will be closer to February 2021 than 2020, and much of the community will have been scared away

As far as anger? I wasn't angry when I wrote that post. Just stating the fact that the game is a buggy piece of shit, and the art style is lukewarm. It helps keep the response more succinct, especially since I get long-winded anyways. I suppose I could have spent 5 minutes listing off all the problems with Reforged, but buggy piece of shit wraps it all together with a profaned bow rather nicely.

Yes Reforged is a disappointment overall, yes Blizzard fucked up. Or shall I say the "Activision Blizzard Corporate Greed" did not respect the community.

But would you sincerely believe the developers who worked on this are a bunch of incompetent useless people ?
Is the remaining Blizzard devs (and even the 3rd-party designers they used) work complete garbage ?

I believe that the final product has shown incompetency somewhere along the line. The actual game doesn't work. I'm not blaming the developers, as I imagine they were understaffed and underpaid, but I also don't blame the suits. The reality is though, this game has a ton of bugs, and it clips every 3 seconds on every system I have tested it on.

For some reason, if all this was made by community members, people would be gobsmacked like this like this was gods-craft.
But just because they were paid for it, it suddenly deserves 0% recognition ? I disagree.

I disagree. I think this community would say it is an unfinished product with a lot of potential, exactly what it is currently.

As far as there is a lot a do not approve in the way Blizzard as a whole has conducted this, I still respect the work of the devs or the design team, whoever they are.
I won't punish them with my childish frustration and primal rage. I will be taking patience and hope for improvements.

I don't think that customers demanding a working product is childish frustration or primal rage. You can respect the work that has been done while holding a team accountable for promises they made for their product. They don't receive my blessing just for trying, especially because they have made the original unreachable.

As you said patches always broke something so that part is not new, but I will never judge someone's work too harshly unless I could do better.
You don't know how the devs feel right now, do you? You don't know what they had to endure from their managing suits, do you?

We can be critical of things that we can't do ourselves. Most people will make comparisons towards an average, so what they're really saying is that the product or service is less than average. I certainly couldn't do better making WC:R than the team did, but I can also say "Hey the quality of the final game is much lower than to be expected for the industry, and also for the promises the business made".

I really don't know much about the dynamic between the developers and their bosses, but it doesn't impact how I perceive the final product. The game clips hard, has fewer features than the original, and has broken tons of user made content. Whether the developers are bad at their jobs, or the suits rushed them, the outcome is the same. You will also notice upon a rereading that I never blamed the devs, or the suits. I stated the condition the game is in ("flavorless piece of shit") while attempting to answer the original question ("Is modding still worth it"? "No, because the game is a flavorless piece of shit, reasons X Y Z")

Do you really think they hate or don't care for the game ? You obviously don't think all that because you seem to believe improvements might happen in the future.
So why do Reforged-frustrated people always throw their anger at the devs rather than the suits ?

I don't think the developers hate this game. I never said anything of the sort. I also never explicitly mentioned the developers or the suits, simply Blizzard. I understand you are frustrated at the people who are attacking the devs, but I think you're equating any rightly earned criticism for Blizzard as being mad or blaming the devs. Please read for what I wrote, not what you think I said. You are arguing against a position that I don't hold.

 

[Macadamia]

that's right, and I already joined Minnesota's protests to show how much I hate you by destroying other people's livehoods.

For sure, Modders Lives Matter too !


More seriously guys, come on this is sarcasm, why take it personally ?


@Jazztastic :

I hear your points, but calling something "a piece of shit" is definitely not an educated and justified criticism.
A more justified way to react would be mentioning the things you are experiencing that are inacceptable, like you said.

As far as I am concerned, Wc3 Reforged is nothing like "A piece of shit". It does not get any close to my own expectations before the release, but there are still things I love with it, and these are the reasons I could not even consider a fraction of second to return to the "good old Froern Throne"

First unlike many, I like the graphics better, even if they have indeed flagrant issues (the lightning being one of many). As I said, I am sorry, but even with a lot of good will, I can't convince my brain that 16 triangles make a hero anymore. Whatever people say won't help this change.

Now I don't know why you are experiencing so many issues with Reforged : my laptop is 5 years old, with an old i7, an old GTX960M and the game plays smoothly, no clipping as far as I can see, and no other issue whatsoever.

Note I am not a melee player, then I understand my perspective is indeed incomplete.

"I disagree. I think this community would say it is an unfinished product with a lot of potential, exactly what it is currently."

Yet, in spite of the astonishing work talented modelers of this community, no one has ever released a single model that can compete, even remotely with most of the new models in the game (not debating the lightning or the realistic trend here).
And trust me I have the highest respect for the work I have witnessed here since my return.

To moderate what I just said, I need to say that I am conscious our modelers do not have access to the proper tools, so their work should indeed not be ashamed. Still, many of the new models are quite astonishing, even if there is some subjective element in the fact of finding them beautiful or not.

"I don't think the developers hate this game. I never said anything of the sort. I also never explicitly mentioned the developers or the suits, simply Blizzard. I understand you are frustrated at the people who are attacking the devs, but I think you're equating any rightly earned criticism for Blizzard as being mad or blaming the devs. Please read for what I wrote, not what you think I said. You are arguing against a position that I don't hold."

OK sorry that was definitely not you.
This point still stands for others than you who seem to put all the blame on their shoulders.


I wanted to add that there are things I really do appreciate in Reforged, coming from someone who was away for so long :
- It gets better over time. We just got new UI natives that solved problems I had spent months banging my head on the wall for, even with the invaluable help of @Tasyen.
- It does not feel outdated anymore. Of course this is only due to some of the visual changes.
(I am not considering the interface in that appreciation !)
- There is more potential for modding than before.
- It seems we will indeed get missing features back, or at least the most important ones like Custom Campaigns. If I am wrong, I might indeed reconsider a part of my current position.



When I read the official forums, 99% of posts seem to be coming from capricious teenagers that had their toy broken. Luckily, criticism here tends to be more educated and adult, but I can still sense a lot of frustration overall.

Maybe, like Terry Goodkind keeps bashing my ears (eyes?) when I try to read The Sword of Truth (yes there are french dudes in their late 40's reading that stuff ), maybe we should think more of solutions than problems .

I feel sorry for everyone drown in disappointment and who feel betrayed in their love of the game, but I think whatever opinion you have on Reforged today could change in the future.

This does not concern the part of the community that was already disappointed before Reforged and who chose to stick with very old versions of the game - Reforged is clearly not the issue for them -

 

[Sparky123]

If you wish your maps to be played, you could give bobby boy your ideas for life
and try the game out. I did that, with some of my older maps. In a way, I know that
the new EULA gives them "my moral rights" over my idea. Whatever. At least I tested it
out with real people.

I agree with many here, but the EULA is unforgivable in my respect.
Reforged may be what it is, but the fact it straight up replaced the old game
and installed a malware by blocking the old editor in the registry?

Beyond. SCUM. MOVE.

But my honest answer to you is, get the old warcraft, make maps there
and find your audience that enjoys that. That's all you care about, right?

 

[Macadamia]

Too late for me unfortunately, couldn't go back to TFT.
Fun note, @Retera pointed out something about the EULA on the official forums :
2020 EULA is better than 2002 EULA

Anyways for some reason, even if nobody ever played my map, I could not stop trying to improve it.

I suppose it has become a drug of some sorts...

 

[Sparky123]

Too late for me unfortunately, couldn't go back to TFT.
Fun note, @Retera pointed out something about the EULA on the official forums :
2020 EULA is better than 2002 EULA

Anyways for some reason, even if nobody ever played my map, I could not stop trying to improve it.

I suppose it has become a drug of some sorts...

That's called modding, the spirit of creation itself.

Also that's not why the eula is bad. Nobody has a problem with that.

Read the manifesto again.

Modding Warcraft 3, one of the best games of all time? Absolutely!

Modding Reforged, the janky, bloated yet somehow also gutted Chinese bootleg of Warcraft 3? Not really, especially with how much more limited you are.

Great point. There's a bootleg Dota HQ which has more quality than Reforged.

With none of the anthrax.

 

[Wark]

On a related note, there is something I've been wondering about.

If I stick to a v1.27 editor and make maps there without any added models, can people who have Reforged installed play those maps?
What functions in the older versions of the world editor are consistent and don't cause conflicts or crashing?
If I use GUI only, will that transition over to Reforged smoothly?
Can I use imported icons with no problems in Reforged gameplay?

 

[Ether]

If Warcraft 5 is released using Unreal Engine 5 with almost life-like graphics, will you abandon Warcraft III and Remorsed for it?
Because of the graphics in 4D?

 

[Macadamia]

Of course I would. What caught me in Warcraft III and its predecessors back in the day is the thematic and the graphics.

Better graphics and better environment is never a bad thing, if it does not destroy the thematic.

You know, I am old school for many things in life as I will be 50 in 8 days. But I have never rejected progress and new tools.
Thats exactly why there are things I love, even in Reforge. But please note that it does not mean becoming forgiving on things that became worse.

It's the same deal with our ways of life and the values carried by western societies (we all share a very similar education and way of life, and we probably all watch the same entertainment since childhood !). I love the things that progressed in our societies : more education (didn't say better there), more information, less barbaric behaviors, more self criticism, more technology, and the list goes on.
On the other hand, I am saddened by the losses in the process, like self-centerism, less family cohesion, less respect overall, and quite a few other new flaws.

Should we go back to the middle age because racism still exists ? Should we go back to the age of stone because of finance ? Should we reject science because some technology agents are malevolent ? Should we regress because with age we start to say things like "it used to be much better in my time" or whatever nonsense like that ?

No our societies were not better before, it already had all the bad things we have today, they were just not as much shown as information technology was not developped enough.
Had Warcraft 3 TFT been released this year in the state, it would have been ignored by the entire planet. Think about it.

Now I would still encourage people to not accept all the bad things thrown at them. But my view is simple : learn to live with what you have rather than crying about what you don't have. Remember some human beings have nothing at all, however hard they try.

 

[deepstrasz]

Whatever addictions you might find in reality twisting graphics, I for one still love NES and SNES games for instance. Most are much better than a lot of the video games today which put accent on the video.

 

[Macadamia]

Oh don't misunderstand me, I don't despise games with outdated graphics but with solid game mechanics.
It's just that they are inherently less "attractive". Does not make them not interesting.

And yes, for some reason, even if I could still play Civilization today, I still feel pleased when looking at beautiful graphics while having fun.

I suppose a couple of years playing Black Desert Online might have affected my judgement beyond what I would have expected.

 

[Sparky123]

Whatever addictions you might find in reality twisting graphics, I for one still love NES and SNES games for instance. Most are much better than a lot of the video games today which put accent on the video.

Nintendo is a brand etched in the lives of billions. Blizzard can only dream of being a brand like that.
World of Warcraft is big, very big... but only a grain of salt in comparison to Nintendo's legacy.
Super Mario will probably live forever. Inside of a doomsday bunker when the world ends. And someone will play it.

Oh don't misunderstand me, I don't despise games with outdated graphics but with solid game mechanics.
It's just that they are inherently less "attractive". Does not make them not interesting.

And yes, for some reason, even if I could still play Civilization today, I still feel pleased when looking at beautiful graphics while having fun.

I suppose a couple of years playing Black Desert Online might have affected my judgement beyond what I would have expected.

Long time runescape player here. Graphics have never been important to me personally,
and I understand shiny is also better. Its only a problem when shiny becomes more important than the game.

 

[Macadamia]

Its only a problem when shiny becomes more important than the game.

I could not deny that and pretend to be sane

 

[deepstrasz]

Super Mario will probably live forever.

Can't wait for all those infinite reboots.

 

[proudmer22]

Well I'll share how this whiole situation works for me. I've been a modder for 6+ years(I come from another modding community, mostly made gameplay mods and a couple of story mods). In the past (2004-2007) I played a lot of Warcraft 3(hence the nickname) and back then even made a short multiplayer map of hero defense(it was hero defense and pretty basic and stupid). So when Reforged was announced I was really excited. I was even thinking about making a map on Classic and then releasing it when Reforged comes out(they promised backward compatibility). Then I started W3 and realised that with that graphics I won't be able to create the experience and cool cinematics I want and scratched it.

Then Reforged came out.... A lot of sh&tstorm happened so my plans were basically ruined. After a couple of months I saw Reforged starting getting patched and better so I decided to buy and spent almost a month making map I long dreamed. I was surprised to find that community is not as active as I thought it would be after Reforged came out. Was it Reforged that split it up or was the time taking its toll(it's 2003 game after all)? On the top of that NOW the community is divided between Reforged and Classic and that results in less players. So you either have to make your map for both SD and HD(takes some time) or lose a great amount of players. In overall this whole situation seems F'd up and I don't really see a silver lining here(and I would love to). Now I'm really conflcted about continuing modding - on the one hand I enjoy the process very much(those years of scripting paid off and I find W3 very easy to mod) but on the other hand I don't want to spend months of my time to make a map which would only be played by much fewer people than it could be(well, 6 years ago this wouldn't stop me, guess I'm getting too old for this)

 

[Kyrbi0]

Yes, it is. Though it highly depends on your motivation for Modding.

If you're doing it for other people, then that might be a little tricky; Reforged was always going to fracture the community in some way, and unfortunately it's poor reception has ensured that fracture is quite large.

If you're doing it for yourself (like me), then absolutely!

...and installed a malware by blocking the old editor in the registry?

This isn't true. It's not "malware" and it doesn't "block" the old editor. From the mouth of @MindWorX (one of our own, who was hired & is now working diligently on the Classic Games Team):

Settings have been migrated to a more modern location, think of the settings as being "v1.33" settings.

Just like you wouldn't expect 1.21 editor to be able to open 1.33 maps, the 1.21 editor can't understand 1.33 settings.
...
The 1.26 editor doesn't know about new modules, so when it encounters settings for new modules, it craps out.
...
You literally delete the editor settings
And it works again
As I explained(edited)
The settings are 1.32
You remove those, and 1.26 generates fresh default ones it understands
...
1. Windows Key+R
2. Type: "regedit"
3. Hit: OK
4. Navigate to "Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Blizzard Entertainment"
5. Delete "WorldEdit" folder

Or if you want to be more surgical about it, delete the keys
Tool Windows
Window State Import Manager
Window State Main
Window State Object Editor
Window State Script
Window State Sound Editor
in the WorldEdit folder

As far as I recall, only Tool Windows needs to be deleted.

But the others have non-versioned settings too, so might have to remove those