[POLL] Should we still mod for the Classic or for Reforged?

[Strydhaizer]

After all the things that happened today I really feel unconfident whether I should continue modding for the classic (even if Blizzard already killed classic/CD versions today) or should I completely abandon my projects that I made specifically for the classic. I am not complaining I just feel sad hearing that they killed the classic and forced people to update to Reforged even if they didn't buy it.

I'm asking the community what are their thoughts about this, are you guys still going to mod and play the classic or are you guys going to move on to Reforged? I will be leaving the poll open forever so I can see the ratio of people who will prefer to mod and play the classic and the people who prefer moving on to Reforged, and you can change your votes anytime you want. This is just a survey so me and other people (especially the modders) will see which version people prefer to mod and play, because what's the point of modding in classic if people are playing reforged now? Or vice versa.

(This is not a hate thread, if you hate the new patch post a new thread instead, this is just a survey).

 

[deepstrasz]

It's too early right now.

 

[Strydhaizer]

It's too early right now.

That's why I left the poll open forever, and changeable anytime.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

You should include another option that says we should wait and see.

Trust me though, I have the same feelings as you and I am extremely discouraged from continuing on my current classic projects...

 

[Strydhaizer]

wait and see

Don't vote in the poll if you have a 'wait and see' feeling, just vote when you change your mind.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Don't vote in the poll if you have a 'wait and see' feeling, just vote when you change your mind.

The reason I want to wait and see is because I want to know if they intend to fix the issues that affects me the most, and to see what workarounds I can find. If my problems are solved in due time I will have no problems with continuing classic modding.

 

[Uncle]

I'm confused, why wouldn't your projects work in Reforged? Is it because of copyright infringement issues?

The update that "forces" players to upgrade to Reforged only changes the UI as far as I know. Your map should still work (albeit maybe buggy at the moment) and players should have the option to play on SD (Classic) graphics if that is what it is intended to be played on.

That being said, I am upset to find out that Blizzard basically owns my content now and that I'm essentially working for them for free. If I were to create the next Dota for example it would basically be Blizzards game from the start. A bit bitter that Valve claimed Dota, hmm?

The copyright stuff doesn't really come as a surprise though. I've avoided using any old art assets/copyright stuff since Reforged was announced. It is extremely unfair that people's maps are going to be banned though... But it is 2020 after all, we aren't getting Warcraft 4 anytime soon and things aren't getting any better. Blizzard releases let down after let down of uninspired garbage. Magic the gathering gets popular? Hearthstone. DotA 2/League? Heroes of the Storm. And Overwatch is literally just DotA and Teamfortress smashed together, two of Valve's games LOL.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

I'm confused, why wouldn't your projects work in Reforged? Is it because of copyright infringement issues?

The update that "forces" players to upgrade to Reforged only changes the UI as far as I know. Your map should still work (albeit maybe buggy at the moment) and players have the option to play on SD (Classic) graphics if that is what was intended from the start.

Screenshot (New) - Screenshot (Old)
Screenshot (New) - Screenshot (Old)
Screenshot (New) - Screenshot (Old)
Screenshot (New) - Screenshot (Old)

These are just some of the graphical issues I am experiencing. This is all in classic by the way, not Reforged.

 

[WyrmSlayer]

I'm confused, why wouldn't your projects work in Reforged? Is it because of copyright infringement issues?

Just gonna fly in here,

For me , Because of copyright infringement issues (which i think alot of maps will suffer from?)

 

[deepstrasz]

These are just some of the graphical issues I am experiencing. This is all in classic by the way, not Reforged.

Talk about 16bit CRTs.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

For me , Because of copyright infringement issues (which i think alot of maps will suffer from?)

There has always been copyright stuff in the EULA, it's not a recent addition.

 

[WyrmSlayer]

There has always been copyright stuff in the EULA, it's not a recent addition.

Ohh. So its the fact that your map can be perma banned if it has those copyright issues that is the problem??

Well personally i was really hyped for reforged.
Would be the first time i got to use battle.net to play custom maps online instead of relying on 3rd party programs / servers.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Ohh. So its the fact that your map can be perma banned if it has those copyright issues that is the problem??

While I doubt that is gonna happen (unless they receive a DMCA complaint), then what stops you from simply altering your map a little bit, then re-hosting it? How can they permanently ban a map? There would need to be an identifying trait that automates the banning process, or else they would have to manually ban all maps. So, if it gets banned, simply change the name or something then you can re-host it (most probably).

Talk about 16bit CRTs.

Yeah I know right...

 

[Lizreu]

My personal take on this is that the EULA issue is blown way out of proportion. If you look at EULAs for any modern game, they are scary as fuck, but these things rarely hold up in court. I doubt Blizzard is going to go after individual mapmakers unless a third-party entity issues takedown requests to Blizzard to remove maps from WC3. Which is very unlikely to happen.

The EULA for WC3 customs has always been extremely sleazy. The "you don't own your map" thing has been there for ages. Doesn't mean it necessarily holds up.

I don't plan for my map to become big or marketable in any shape or form. If I want to take my map to a standalone, Blizzard can suck my balls - gameplay ideas and "concepts" are not copyrightable. That's the least of my concerns.

I believe there are far bigger issues at hand, though - like the current state of WC3 (buggy) and the very tangible possibility that Blizzard will abandon WC3 development post-launch seeing the backlash.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

I don't plan for my map to become big or marketable in any shape or form.

This applies to pretty much 99% of the modder base, and anyone who wants to monetize their game development has moved on to Unity.

 

[Lizreu]

This applies to pretty much 99% of the modder base, and anyone who wants to monetize their game development has moved on to Unity.

Yes. That's why the whole "I won't develop maps anymore because of the EULA" thing seems very knee-jerky and silly to me. There are far more concerning reasons to stop developing for WC3 though.

 

[Duke]

I really don't want to mod for Reforged because of the need to edit all textures (dds, some maps for shaders or wtf). It makes quickly editing stuff to suit my needs take too long. If the above mentioned issues with effects and glows are resolved I would probably stick with classic. Also I don't think there will ever be as big a model repository of Reforged quality models as for classic ones.

EDIT: I didn't read the poll until now. I really really hope that community will not split into reforged, reforged classic, 1.31 classic and 1.26. That would truly suck.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Also I don't think there will ever be as big a model repository of Reforged quality models as for classic ones.

Maybe not as big but there's an insane amount of high quality models from Wow, Dota 2, Unity and so on that looks good in Reforged, and they're all available for free on various websites like Wc3-maps.ru, Chaosrealm, XGM etc.

 

[Duke]

Maybe not as big but there's an insane amount of high quality models from Wow, Dota 2, Unity and so on that looks good in Reforged, and they're all available for free on various websites like Wc3-maps.ru, Chaosrealm, XGM etc.

True, but I have yet to see whether getting them to reforged is going to be easy or hard. Right now ripping WoW model is quite simple.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

True, but I have yet to see whether getting them to reforged is going to be easy or hard. Right now ripping WoW model is quite simple.

It's quite simple, I am developing a map in Reforged with a plethora of HQ ripped models.

 

[Duke]

It's quite simple, I am developing a map in Reforged with a plethora of HQ ripped models.

Well then is there any chance of you doing some short tutorial? Just few lines and screens would do.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Well then is there any chance of you doing some short tutorial? Just few lines and screens would do.

Oh you mean the actual ripping process? I meant that there are already a bunch of available resources that looks good in Reforged due to their high quality. Importing them is still the same process as in Classic.

 

[Duke]

Oh you mean the actual ripping process? I meant that there are already a bunch of available resources that looks good in Reforged due to their high quality. Importing them is still the same process as in Classic.

Really? I thought there was a problem with shaders or something. Thats good to hear then.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Really? I thought there was a problem with shaders or something. Thats good to hear then.

That was fixed in this patch.

See screenshots (none of the models you see are Reforged assets);

Screenshot
Screenshot
Screenshot

 

[Chaosy]

I am dumping classic begone ugly models.

*insert dump gf joke here*

 

[Duke]

That was fixed in this patch.

See screenshots (none of the models you see are Reforged assets);

Screenshot
Screenshot
Screenshot

Cool, thanks for info. Guess I will be switching to reforged then.

 

[HerrDave]

I am dumping classic begone ugly models.

I could not disagree with you more.

Enjoy your shiny new models and always online requirement.

 

[WyrmSlayer]

While I doubt that is gonna happen (unless they receive a DMCA complaint), then what stops you from simply altering your map a little bit, then re-hosting it? How can they permanently ban a map? There would need to be an identifying trait that automates the banning process, or else they would have to manually ban all maps. So, if it gets banned, simply change the name or something then you can re-host it (most probably).


Yeah I know right...

Ohh. So just continue modding then??

 

[Otherknownoise]

Personally I can play on third party platform. Maybe there'll be more third party platforms for classic wc3.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Ohh. So just continue modding then??

Depends. If they don't fix classic graphics I won't continue modding classic, and if they put custom campaigns behind some pay wall I will quit Warcraft 3 altogether and move on to learn Unity level design.

 

[bear_369]

If I was going back to mapping, I would add Mickey Mouse to it and see if they would claim it as theirs.


Joking aside, this whole problem revolves on when Blizzard owns your ideas that you made on your map, like storytelling and gameplay. Blizzard already owns your map for a long time before this uproar, and I wondered if they expanded it even further, since I haven't check their new EULA yet.

If you want to continue modding with your own content not being taken outright by Blizzard, just stick with the old versions.

 

[DieShadow]

If I was going back to mapping, I would add Mickey Mouse to it and see if they would claim it as theirs.


Joking aside, this whole problem revolves on when Blizzard owns your ideas that you made on your map, like storytelling and gameplay. Blizzard already owns your map for a long time before this uproar, and I wondered if they expanded it even further, since I haven't check their new EULA yet.

If you want to continue modding with your own content not being taken outright by Blizzard, just stick with the old versions.

Well i know that my map never will be something like Dota, but this shit is just demotivating, honestly.
Also someone said that you cannot protect your map.

 

[bear_369]

View attachment 346103
Well i know that my map never will be something like Dota, but this shit is just demotivating, honestly.
Also someone said that you cannot protect your map.

As I said before, the problem is more on your ideas being taken by Blizzard without a credit. And yes, you cannot protect your map since it was under Blizzard's property. It's more of the problem that they would take that idea from your map as their property as well.

It is why they lost a legal battle against Valve since the following Dota 2 debacle. They've updated their EULA to prevent another custom-map migrating outside of their game, still salty about it for over a decade.

I think you can protect your ideas when making a map, by using an old World Editor that uses an outdated EULA, like in v1.31. It's more likely that the new EULA only affects on Reforged.

2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. The Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties, and conventions and other laws. All rights are reserved. The Program contains certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

 

[DracoL1ch]

>> catch phrases
so, I assume "Im so wasted" line is no longer copyrighted?

 

[darkravenbest]

Classic. Lol. Do you want to hang over your creation to THEM?

 

[BoxCrayonTales]

Somebody on reddit suggested making a spiritual successor. I checked out their discord and they seem to be quickly accumulating a following.

 

[deepstrasz]

Somebody on reddit suggested making a spiritual successor. I checked out their discord and they seem to be quickly accumulating a following.

Nah. All we need is community patches for Classic.

 

[Victel]

If you rip models without PBR textures you should update the models to support it otherwise you're not taking full advantage nof the graphics.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Just because you can rip a model doesn't mean you should simply import it with animations and call it a day. Reforged supports PBR which means you should update the ripped models to also support it as well as making full use of 4k.

Well, I guess people who don't know HQ modelling shouldn't make maps with custom models then, according to your logic. There is nothing wrong with using imported models that isn't PBR adjusted. They look quite fine anyway.

 

[Victel]

Well, I guess people who don't know HQ modelling shouldn't make maps with custom models then, according to your logic. There is nothing wrong with using imported models that isn't PBR adjusted. They look quite fine anyway.

It's an issue of texturing not modeling. I misspoke when I said you should update the models. Anyways, yes the textures wont look right. The models you're taking the games from will have specularity which will look wrong in the roughness slot plus spec and roughness do completely different stuff, spec controls metal color and sharpness of hilights, roughness controls glossiness and Taking full advantage of PBR looks great. Metal will actually look like metal.

 

[Victel]

Trust me. You want to go down this rabbit hole

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

It's an issue of texturing not modeling. I misspoke when I said you should update the models. Anyways, yes the textures wont look right. The models you're taking the games from will have specularity which will look wrong in the roughness slot plus spec and roughness do completely different stuff, spec controls metal color and roughness controls glossiness and Taking full advantage of PBR looks great. Metal will actually look like metal.

Hmm my stuff still looks fine though, no problems at all. Whoever can should probably do what you're talking about, but saying what you said initially is like saying that people shouldn't make triggers/custom maps unless they're proficient in vJASS or LUA because it's not optimal.

The required skills to optimize models for PBR is skills that maybe a fraction of THW has, and frankly, not a lot of the model makers has the ability and/or time to make as HQ models as Reforged. Which means map makers are left with some options; Wow models from Legion or WoD still looks awesome, Dota 2 models are passable, HOTS models are passable, Skyrim models looks fine but may be a tad bit too realistic when it comes to art style, and some other random HQ models that are found here and there. That's our options until the custom Reforged model repository catches up.

 

[Jumbo]

While I was as disappointed as anyone about the state of affairs on the release of Reforged, I believe things WILL get better. A rushed release is not necessarily the Classic Team's fault. I suppose Activision-Blizzard decided that they wanted it out now no matter what. We should distinguish between the Classic Team and Activision-Blizzard as a whole I think - the latter being a huge company which as a result of the amount of money involved is not based on love for gaming anymore (for many years already). This is an unfortunate essential part of companies that were creative in their origins growing too big and drowning in their own success. That doesn't mean that everyone working at Blizzard is evil or wants to ruin our beloved games. I think in time Reforged will become alright due to the Classic Team slowly fixing it.

 

[deepstrasz]

We should distinguish between the Classic Team and Activision-Blizzard as a whole

Sad reality: support the devs-> support ActiBlizzard.

 

[Victel]

Hmm my stuff still looks fine though, no problems at all. Whoever can should probably do what you're talking about, but saying what you said initially is like saying that people shouldn't make triggers/custom maps unless they're proficient in vJASS or LUA because it's not optimal.

The required skills to optimize models for PBR is skills that maybe a fraction of THW has, and frankly, not a lot of the model makers has the ability and/or time to make as HQ models as Reforged. Which means map makers are left with some options; Wow models from Legion or WoD still looks awesome, Dota 2 models are passable, HOTS models are passable, Skyrim models looks fine but may be a tad bit too realistic when it comes to art style, and some other random HQ models that are found here and there. That's our options until the custom Reforged model repository catches up.

Recommending people utilize shaders right isn't like saying you should learn coding. Mastering textures for PBR is easy and requires very little hand painting unless you want to go crazy with designing the gloss map.

You mentioned keeping the look relevant by choosing games fitting to the art style. None of the games you mentioned support PBR. Reforged does. You're putting 1080p models from other games (some which don't have shaders at all) along side 4k PBR characters, the next gen graphics gap is huge. The custom reforge community won't catch up unless artists are willing to go the extra mile.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Recommending people utilize shaders right isn't like saying you should learn coding.

If you read thoroughly you see that I said "What you said initially" which, quote on quote, is "Just because you can rip a model doesn't mean you should simply import it with animations and call it a day. Reforged supports PBR which means you should update the ripped models to also support it as well as making full use of 4k".

Mastering textures for PBR is easy and requires very little hand painting unless you want to go crazy with designing the gloss map.

It is still a skill most doesn't know, and probably will never care to learn.

You mentioned keeping the look relevant by choosing games fitting to the art style. None of the games you mentioned support PBR. Reforged does. You're putting 1080p models from other games (some which don't have shaders at all) along side 4k PBR characters, the next gen graphics gap is huge.

You have been saying that, yet I can make quite nice looking terrains with models that has far worse quality than even WoW. It's not about the models being of the same quality, it's about aesthetics. If a map/terrain is aesthetically pleasing and the environment blends well then I don't care if the models I'm using is PBR optimized or not.

The custom reforge community won't catch up unless artists are willing to go the extra mile.

Which is why wow models are extremely relevant in this context.

 

[Victel]

I'm assuming you haven't ported any of these models to know what to do with their specular shader in a PBR environment. Wow models don't have one so of course they'll look the same, you'd know this if you ported them. They won't fit in with the 4k PBR characters though considering they're much lower poly and lack shaders. Sure they match the art but they don't look good along side modern day graphics, this is why the latest expansions in wow arent being mastered in 4k. The contrast between old and new looks bad.

Bottom line. I convert PBR textures. It's not a skill. I learned it in a couple days working with cryengine. You want to plop old textures without shaders next to next gen graphics go ahead. I'm just telling you it looks bad. You're arguing with me on something you never attempted. You don't understand what PBR is and you're explaining to me how difficult it is.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

I'm just telling you it looks bad.

This is 100% subjective.

You're arguing with me on something you never attempted. You don't understand what PBR is and you're explaining to me how difficult it is.

No, you're putting words in my mouth and going on and on about how they don't look good next to each other when I don't agree at all.

I am saying most people don't know it, and most people will never learn it.

 

[Victel]

This is 100% subjective.

No, you're putting words in my mouth and going on and on about how they don't look good next to each other when I don't agree at all.

I am saying most people don't know it, and most people will never learn it.

Okay this entire thing started because you objected to what I originally said about utilizing the engine to make textures fit in with the next gen shaders.(comment wasn't even to you directly) I explained why for any reasonable people looking to keep graphics relevant which, by the way, isn't a controversial stance. You explained your opinion that you think they look "okay." Okay? Great, you have an opinion that low-poly 2048x2048 low poly shaderless models look fine with next gen graphics. That's all fine but for the record, it's not a lot of work, it's simple for anyone looking to learn converting them in 2 days. The difference isn't negligible for most people. It's profound enough in appearance that PBR was created and is the standard now across the board. This was going out to anyone who wants to add art to the game and make them benefit from the latest texture workflow. Most people in 3d art looking to learn texturing or texture editing will learn it if they value stuff looking up-to-date graphically. You can have your opinion but my point is that PBR is reforged and it's something to keep in mind for anyone looking to do any kind of texture work.

A simple tutorial:
PBR Texture Conversion | Marmoset

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Okay this entire thing started because you objected to what I originally said about utilizing the engine to make textures fit in with the next gen shaders.

Actually this started with you saying nobody should use models that aren't PBR optimized.

I explained why for any reasonable people looking to keep graphics relevant which, by the way, isn't a controversial stance.

I never said it's a controversial stance, in fact I even said that whoever CAN, should do what you're describing. You need to read exactly what I'm telling you and decipher (it's not that hard) what I actually mean.

The difference isn't negligible for most people.

I would disagree as most people have no idea how to optimize their shit for current gen graphics.

This was going out to anyone who wants to add art to the game and make them benefit from the latest texture workflow.

Actually, your initial statement was meant to everyone and anyone who used custom models. The statement that you later redacted, but that ultimately started this discussion.

Most people in 3d art looking to learn texturing or texture editing will learn it if they value stuff looking up-to-date graphically.

That's all well and good, but I'm not a modeler or texturer. I'm a map maker.