Hive Olympics: Race Expansion

[PurplePoot]

We get one month to do a spell, but an hour is often enough for the coding plus debugging of a more complex one, and ideas can be done when you're working on other things.

Contest deadlines are horribly unrepresentative of the actual time it takes to do something.

However, if the modeling time is that concerning, it could be moved to four hero models, and for units they could either be ingame or modeled depending on preference of the team. Buildings are likely to be dropped anyways at this rate...

 

[Gausslander]

Why not just make a hero contest?
this makes absolutely no sense at all.
Why do you need a coder for a building?
and the whole terrainer aspect of it is pointless
why not just have a base map?
The modeller is cool. But what if he can't make his own textures?

 

[Hawkwing]

I originally suggested a Texturer, but he said no. You'll have to find someone who can. Also, a Hero Contest is totally different. And the terrain needs to be unique.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Currently, I strongly believe 1 coder is enough. The main reason why making a hero takes so long is because you also have to think of everything by yourself. With three people, you 3 times as many ideas and can immediately get to work on a hero. While your working on 1 hero they can be thinking of another.

Something this competition could use though, is custom purchasable items for each race. Maybe 2 more?

 

[PurplePoot]

Scyth, you're missing the entire point of the contest...

 

[Gausslander]

No I originally suggested something very similar.
It was called Unit Group Contest.
Still, I don't really think this is well-planned.
For instance, why not just add that custom unit to a building that's already in the game? And it has to be an ulti unit, or a tier 3. If it weren't, then why make a building for that one unit?

 

[Dr Super Good]

I know, how about you scrap this entire contest idea for one that is more olympic style.

The contest is held over 6 fields.
Maps
Spells
Terane
Icons
Models
Skins

The contest is open to anyone to enter for a month or few to submit work. The work obviously has to be done after the start of the contest.
With maps, they have to make some kind of simple map or improve an existing one.
With spells they basically have to make a hero that would fit in to standard melee ballence wise.
With terane its purly make a terane with no imports suitable for melee.
Icons and skins have to be done from scratch (template allowed with skins to see what part of texture is used).
Modeling is to create a unique model via geo merging or any thing as long as no parts from existing custom models are used and no new skins are used (all wc3 included skins).

A judge would be appointed to each catorgry. Basically then each catogory has 3 prizes, gold silver and bronze. Any person can enter as many catorgries as he wants as long as he does not enter the same one twice.

This basic outline would be far more Olympic like (much like the real deal) than this current crazy idea.

Really currently you can not call it Olympic as its basically is a random contest idea and nothing more. Scyth-Master pretty much said the truth, you can prove nothing by ratting multiple axpects with the same submission. Its basically like in the olympics getting each contestant for sports to team together and to have to enter in multiple sports (like a runner in swimming or boating) and awarding them a medal for overall how well they did (I am sure each area has its own medal awards).

Most triggeres, even ones who are good with JASS have not made 20 good custom spells that were used in a map. Programming spells is also not as fast as you say, hours easilly can tick by if you have encountered a problem and are looking for a solution. Finding the right natives takes time if you have never used them before or have not remembered their names.

 

[Gausslander]

I know, how about you scrap this entire contest idea for one that is more olympic style.

The contest is held over 6 fields.
Maps
Spells
Terane
Icons
Models
Skins

The contest is open to anyone to enter for a month or few to submit work. The work obviously has to be done after the start of the contest.
With maps, they have to make some kind of simple map or improve an existing one.
With spells they basically have to make a hero that would fit in to standard melee ballence wise.
With terane its purly make a terane with no imports suitable for melee.
Icons and skins have to be done from scratch (template allowed with skins to see what part of texture is used).
Modeling is to create a unique model via geo merging or any thing as long as no parts from existing custom models are used and no new skins are used (all wc3 included skins).

A judge would be appointed to each catorgry. Basically then each catogory has 3 prizes, gold silver and bronze. Any person can enter as many catorgries as he wants as long as he does not enter the same one twice.

This basic outline would be far more Olympic like (much like the real deal) than this current crazy idea.

Really currently you can not call it Olympic as its basically is a random contest idea and nothing more. Scyth-Master pretty much said the truth, you can prove nothing by ratting multiple axpects with the same submission. Its basically like in the olympics getting each contestant for sports to team together and to have to enter in multiple sports (like a runner in swimming or boating) and awarding them a medal for overall how well they did (I am sure each area has its own medal awards).

That makes much more sense, to be honest. Because that basically fixes all of the loopholes in the rules and gives an idea of what the contest will actually... well be. If you're going to use it's name, then why not use the idea of it? War3 Olympic contests are basically contests that give out a bronze, silver, and gold medal for different categories of mapping or hero design, modeling, etc.

Now if I'm right you're saying all members of the teams will be individually judged in their categories as not to prove bias to a team with a more experience modeler or coder?

 

[PurplePoot]

DSG, my times given are not random, they're the times I find myself taking to code those sorts of things.

The only reason I find to use weird natives is to exploit weird bugs.

As for this "Olympics" contest, what's the point? We already have individual contests in each category, why bother hosting another which is just then all over again? This contest puts a nice new spin on things.

 

[Dr Super Good]

If you are coding something obscure like a hero spell that gives 1,2 or 3% more recources, you will find yourself using quite different natives (and events) than one that simply deals damage based on stats on an area over time.

Making an aura took me a great deal of time (3 hours about). 1 hour of coding (as I needed to support heroes learning it as well as letting a user add / remove heroes from the system if they made an item with it which took quite a bit of time and finding the natives and constants to use with them took some time as well as aranging the code in a nice way) and the rest debugging (dam player unit event not executting the provided condition for some reason which I still could not trace why). The way I did it to was a quick way that did not need any handle table system. So yes programming is realitivly fast, but you have to remember that not everyone triggers most of their free time. Thus why something as simple as making 1 hero with 4 spells can take as long as a month.

Think of the spell mini contests, thats just 1 spell and they last 1-2 weeks and people still sometimes run out of time.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Usually because they want to make something uber flashy and unbalanced lol

Normally, your spells wont be really flashy except the ultimate. Auras are easy to code as long as you don't require them to be updated every second. Such as, a unit dies, if killing unit has aura buff, then make that unit lose a % of its health... Stuff like that..

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Guys, about the modellers. The models dont have to be from scratch, and also remember that its specific per race. So its just adding another unit to an already existant race, its not like their inventing an entirely new unit from an unknown race and shit.

So like, we could make a champion model for the humans. It could just be a knight with a helmet and some golden armour. Same anims, edited model

We're not talking about fuckin, making an entirely new model from scrtach here...

 

[skrab]

We're not talking about fuckin, making an entirely new model from scrtach here...

but if you want some extra points you'll make a entirely new model ))

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Ya but you dont have to make an entirely new model EVERY time. Just one or two, the rest can be edited.

Edit: NOOO, i'm at 667, must go delete old post...

 

[~Void~]

Yessssss!!1

 

[frostwhisper]

Anyway, I'm gonna be away for the next three and something days, so I'll work on arranging this later.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Darn, I read the whole thread, then waited a couple hours to post, so now I forgot everything. Umm, let's see...

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First off, I think (someone) is right; this can't really qualify as an "Olympic" contest. I fully endorse the creation of a real Olympic version; probably something like what (someone) already posted. I.e., you could get the Gold-Silver-Bronze medal (plus some rep) in different categories, such as modelling, terraining, triggering, texturing, and... custom hero-ering .

Secondly, however, I definitely think this contest sounds like a great idea (albeit, with a different name + some optimisations). As much as I have a intense, gibbering phobia of working on a team (can't... take... rejection!), I think this would be really interesting. However:

- Terraining seems almost... unnecessary? Adding a building/unit/hero to each techtree seems like enough of an expansion (hey, maybe it's the "Warcraft 3.5 Expansion Pack Contest"?)
- Regardless of the Terraining issue, I think the number of models and the amount of work/time involved is incredible

~~~

Several alternatives? (many of them are mutually-exclusive)
- Each team makes a custom hero/unit/building. The building would be an 'uber pwnage building', buildable only at the 3rd tier (Every race has an open slot on the command card right here:


- Each team creates a literal 'expansion pack'; i.e. 1 new hero, 1-2 (?) new units, and perhaps some upgrades (or not).


Because of the amount of work involved, it seems we must either increase the number of people on each team, or lighten the workload. Since coordinating becomes exponentially more difficult with each member of a team, the latter solution seems best:

- Instead of working on all 4 races (*gag*), make it so that each team only works on two of them. The team picks the two and declares them in this thread, then they work on a custom 1v1 map featuring those two 'enhanced' races.

- Or even simpler, just have each team work on 1 race. Any debate of balance? Well, if they make the additions to the race balanced compared to normal Wc3 (i.e. Yes, my race has 5 heroes, but all of the 5th heroe's abilities are Wc3-worthy and not DotA-worthy), or compared to the perceived enhancements from other teams (i.e. working with the knowledge that every team will be making a T3 'uber building'), then balance is achieved.

As for custom models; 8 custom models is obscene. Even allowing Geomerges and simple edits is still a boat-load of work:

- Allow geomerges + simple edits (it always seems like things made from bits of actual Wc3 models fit in Wc3 better, unless the modeller is rather talented :/ )

- Only require 1 (maaaybe 2) custom models... Or better yet, make models optional! (However, that removes the modelling aspect...)
- - So going with above, you say "Each team must create one custom model; either for the building (?), the unit, or the hero. Everything else is extra".

- Because really, there are a lot of good, unused models in the MPQ's; Garithos, Sylvanas, Archimonde, NE Watchers/Runners/Assassins, Malfurion (w/ and w/o the Stag), KotG Ghost, Archmage Ghost, Arthas w/ Sword, and much more...

- Allow (other than the custom content, of course) only a few other imports; mainly a Dummy model w/ attachment points (for those advanced triggerers that can use them to make cool projectiles) and a proper Hero Glow (that way, any model in the MPQ can be used as a Hero!)

Should anything downloadable from THW's resource sections be allowed, or is this entirely 'content created for this contest'?

~~~

I think that's all. Whew, I'm all typed out.
Just make sure to set proper guidelines on what "fits" in Wc3; i.e., we shouldn't see any 'damage based on the [attribute] of the caster', or 'jumps around, slashing every unit [10 x attackspeed] times'... Bleh.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Oh yeah, and for the record, I wanna join as a Triggerer/Idea Guy (or Terrainer in a pinch, or Modeller if you don't mind garbage ). I demand to work with Xatoga; then all we need is someone else from OH and we'll be eating wincream

...Just kidding Xatoga

 

[Gilles]

TL;DR sorry. I did read the first part and I disagree. I think the way we are trying to set it up is better.

Edit: Okay, I skimmed bits of it. First off having more than three is a bad idea. Trust me. They don't have to be eight custom models. I think we said they can be just wc3 models, but you should have some custom ones. Maybe we'll set a certain amount.

 

[PurplePoot]

How about this? It would (hopefully) solve the whining about too much work for modelers.

However, if the modeling time is that concerning, it could be moved to four hero models, and for units they could either be ingame or modeled depending on preference of the team. Buildings are likely to be dropped anyways at this rate...

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

I honestly don't know how much work 4 models is, but sounds better to me. Custom units are unessessary.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Hmm... Or perhaps 4 (3, 2?) total custom models total, which can be done on either the units or the heroes (although I do think Heroes are cooler ).

I agree, buildings should probably be reconsidered.

 

[PurplePoot]

Saying that at minimum heroes should be done, and at maximum heroes and units, would give freedom to the modeler in how much work they want to put into their part. The same goes with coders and unit abilities, and terrainers and map size.

 

[Gilles]

Saying that at minimum heroes should be done, and at maximum heroes and units, would give freedom to the modeler in how much work they want to put into their part. The same goes with coders and unit abilities, and terrainers and map size.

This is true, but I really would like to see a set amounts for everything.

Terrain: X by X size.
Models: X amount of heroes, X amount of units.
Coders: X amount of skills.

That way it's fair. I can't see a team winning when they only do the minimum. People are going to naturally want to vote for the team that did all the models, skills, and largest terrain. You could say it's perfectly fair because teams choose if they want to do the extra work or not, but I personally would rather see a more level playing field.

 

[PurplePoot]

It is level, as exactly as you said, they have a choice to do more work.

Besides, bigger is not necessarily better. 16 fun and original spells beat 24 boring and misplaced ones, and the same can be said for models and terrain. Also, design is important, and having the most spells on a unit does not necessarily make sense...

 

[Gilles]

I know poot, but I still would rather see set rules like that. Just makes things easier in my opinion. Especially judging.

 

[Ash]

The olympics will be over by the time we've decided on what's going to happen.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Ah. Ok... Do you want me to edit my post?

~~~

Well, on the whole "fixed requirements" vs. "minimum requirements" debate, perhaps there's a way to accord 'bonus points' or something to people based on the amount over the minimum they go. I'm not sure how that would go... Maybe, bonus points based on how much extra you did, and then points deducted for parts that didn't make sense. ?

Meh, I'm not really the one to figure this out.

 

[Hero_Lief]

I'm thinking this. All teams make two units, one hero with fully custom spells, a building, and a terrain. All teams get into groups of 4 teams each. When it comes to judging time, the best terrainer's terrain from each of the groups is made, and then the 4 teams in that group get their units put into that map. From there, the units are judged and everything.
Each team consists of 4 people: A terrainer, a GUI writer, a skinner, and a modeller. Each team is allowed to use two models from the MPQ for their units/hero/building. The other two must be custom. However, you may use less models from the mpq and make more customs, but that the team decides. It would score more points if you do make another custom. You must have AT LEAST 1 model from the MPQ however.
As with spells, they may only be in GUI. No JASS, JESP, or anything of the sort.
Anyways, this is only a concept. Tell if you like.

EDIT: The challenge of the groups is that the 4 teams in that group have to work together for one thing: They must all work together to balance their units so the map is fair, no matter what race you use.

 

[PurplePoot]

As with spells, they may only be in GUI. No JASS, JESP, or anything of the sort.

What... the...? Erm... no. And JESP isn't a language anyways.

I'm thinking this. All teams make two units, one hero with fully custom spells, a building, and a terrain. All teams get into groups of 4 teams each. When it comes to judging time, the best terrainer's terrain from each of the groups is made, and then the 4 teams in that group get their units put into that map. From there, the units are judged and everything.

The idea of a tiered competition is kind've blah.

And I thought we (mostly) agreed on groups of 3, and that even 4 was too much? We wouldn't have enough people for groups of 12 either way...

 

[Gilles]

Poot I suggest you make a draft of the rules and everything. I'll help you if you want. Then we can post it in here, and discuss it with everyone.

 

[Xatoga]

Why not just make 4 teams and after the contest do the bulk of balance-work?

 

[PurplePoot]

That completely removes one of the aspects of the contest, though. Blah...

 

[~Void~]

As with spells, they may only be in GUI. No JASS, JESP, or anything of the sort.

That's like saying "Alright, we're going to have sex, but no condoms. You can only use a ziploc bag, or get aids."

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

LOL at no JASS... If that was a rule I guess you'd see alot of custom scripts in my map lol

 

[PurplePoot]

Trying to exclude any more experienced people than you is just ridiculous, seriously.

 

[~Void~]

Tru dat. 'tis like a modeler challenging a skinner to a modeling contest that only allows ingame textures.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Trying to exclude any more experienced people than you is just ridiculous, seriously.

No actually, its logical. Because he obviously cannot write JASS and wants to join in. But knows he doesnt have any hope of winning since he can only trigger GUI.

But of course whats stupid about it is that suggestion is so obviously not going to pass.

Which just contradicts what i said.

Fuck

 

[Gilles]

No actually, its logical. Because he obviously cannot write JASS and wants to join in. But knows he doesnt have any hope of winning since he can only trigger GUI.

But of course whats stupid about it is that suggestion is so obviously not going to pass.

Which just contradicts what i said.

Fuck

Just because you can't JASS does not mean that you can't win.

It's not as if JASS is something you're born with. You can learn it, thus it's perfectly fair.

 

[~Void~]

No actually, its logical. Because he obviously cannot write JASS and wants to join in. But knows he doesnt have any hope of winning since he can only trigger GUI.

So he is trying to bend the contest to cater to his specialties, while limiting everyone else's, which is essentially the exact definition of "unfair".

 

[Hero_Lief]

...God. It's nothing like that. I've just had experience that when theres both JASS and GUI in a map, sometimes it fatal errors. I'uno why.

It wouldn't even affect me. I'm a modeller/skinner/terrainer. I hate triggering. -_-

Here, how about in each map, with the one group, 4 teams, the triggerers decide on whether they want to use JASS or GUI.

Also, heres the thing about the groups. The groups are made only so the maps are all put together. And so that the balance can be done. If one of the races wins the best/1st, then its the team that worked on that race that gets the award. Not any of the other teams. Unless they win something seperately too.

 

[~Void~]

That's probably most likely because the code was fucked up, there is no conflict between jass and GUI. GUI is just jass functions with an interface (crappy inefficient ones at that).

More metaphorz: GUI is to jass as Vista is to XP, Vista is so much prettier but XP is so much... better.

 

[Hero_Lief]

XP? Better. So agreed.

Well, we can try.

 

[Pyritie]

Question.

Are modelers allowed to make SFX to go along with their spells?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Probably not, but 'twould be cool.

Ok, we've dissembled for a while... Where are we? Is this still an "Olympics" Expansion pack contest, or something else?

 

[Hero_Lief]

It probably wouldn't get official fast enough to be Olympics... Oh well. *sigh*

 

[Steel_Stallion]

WHo cares. Its hive olymics.

 

[Hero_Lief]

Very true.

 

[Hawkwing]

How about Paralypmics? If we don't make it for then we can have the "Modolympics".

 

[Hero_Lief]

Or how about expalympics? Expansion olympics.

 

[Gilles]

Modlympics is the best.