Hive Olympics: Race Expansion

[frostwhisper]

A couple of guys and I have been discussing this in chat. Since one of the major problems discussed in the Site Discussion these days is the Arena inactivity, we believe that making a competition involving teams and ranging over a broad range of modding aspects (Olympics style ) would be not only motivating for people to come in the arena, but will probably increase the current activity two fold.

So, the idea is this:

Race Expansion Competition

Combining the following areas:
- In-game only playable terraining (that actually looks impressive, like the fortress challenge we had long ago)
- Coding (unique new abilities)
- Modeling (models fitting in to each race)

The idea of the competition is for players to work in teams of three. Teams will consist of a terrainer, a coder and a modeler.

The goal in the competiton: terraining an non-import playable map, adding one building, one unit and one hero to each existing race, balancing them out, basically expanding the TFT races similarly to how thy were expanded from RoC to TFT.

Now help develop the idea so we can actually do something...

EDIT: Because making 4 units, 4 buildings and 4 heroes is too much of a strain for the modelers, it was suggested that the unit use an in-game model (more creativity work that way too). So it's only 8 models total instead of 12.

 

[HINDYhat]

Laddering the winning submission would be a neat idea too.

I endorse this.

 

[LordOglog]

I think this idea would be nice. Would teams have to be set to 3 or could there be teams of 2 and 4 aswell?

 

[frostwhisper]

True. Like a second stage of the competition.
Me likes.

EDIT: I strongly suggest keeping the team members to an equal number. Three would be good imo.

 

[LordOglog]

okay sounds a bit fairer. i was thinking of some sort of handicap for having extra modders but keeping at 3 is fair.

 

[Gausslander]

I find this to be... too simple really. What's the fun in designing one unit, one building, and one hero? That's just a lot of balance work. Ew.

 

[FamousPker49]

I think more than just one unit/building would be good, but I think it is a sweet idea. I like the whole team idea, as I had proposed a sort of similar idea, with modeling and skinning, with a team of two. But I think that the teams should be even no matter what.

 

[frostwhisper]

Having more new units than this would mean a horrible overweight for the coders and modelers compared to the terrainer's job.

 

[Ash]

I also think this is a good idea.

I also think that we should bring back the melee school, like we used to have, and let the winners map be hosted in a melee tournament.

 

[skrab]

i really like this idea

 

[Pyritie]

Heh, this reminds me of wc3c's hero contest, except this has terrainers too.

I might join :3

 

[LiOneSS]

heh i am in )))) just get this hosted asap

 

[Steel_Stallion]

I'm in, terrainer LFT

You'd be surprised how well i can terrain when i'm motivated.

 

[frostwhisper]

Welcome to the Hive Workshop’s first teamed competition, ranging from the arts of terraining and modeling to the depths of coding itself. It is with great pride that I give you:

The Hive Workshop Race Expansion Competition

Contest Rules And Conditions

In this contest, gladiators will group in teams of three, each member representing a specific feature of WarCraft III modding: modeler, coder and terrainer.

Once assembled, the teams must work together in creating a standard melee map from scratch, with the following additions to two of the playable races picked before-hand:
- One new building per race with its own distinct function: requiring a custom model. Note: since all the races’ building lists are full, each team must decide on a reasonable solution for the problem (a morph ability for the race’s worker with an alternate building list is permitted).
- One new hero per race with 4 unique and functional spells: requiring a custom model. Spells may, and are encouraged to be triggered.
- One new custom unit per race along with up to two upgrades and abilities concerning that unit, added to the tech-trees: requiring a custom model.
- An improved techtree that will include the new building as a requirement for units/spells/upgrades. Creativity is a must in this area.

Summing it up, this brings the goal of each team to:
- A completely scratch-made, playable map.
- A total of 6 custom models.
- A maximum of 12 custom spells/upgrades.

The task is not easy, so teams must be certain that they cooperate well with each other to the end.

Submission rules include:

• The terrain of the map must be created using in-game models only, however creativity is still crucial.
• The terrain must be designed to host four players.
• All models and spells must be created for this contest. No previous works allowed.
• No more than 2 upgrades and 2 abilities may be used for each race's unique unit.
• The two races must be balanced out after the additions are made.
• Each hero must have four spells and use the normal warcraft leveling system.
• No triggering is permitted beyond the hero/unit abilities.
• Aside from the custom unit, the only other addition that may be included to each of the two races is the custom advanced worker (for building the special building).
• Each team member must stick to his part of the task (terrainer does terrain only, he doesn’t help with coding/modeling).

• 
  

Contest Prizes And Winnings

First Place: 50 reputation points and a special award icon per team member + usage of the winning map in the Hive's next melee ladder contest Second Place: 30 reputation points per team member Third Place: 15 reputation points per team member

Contest Judging And Voting

• Judging Criteria
  

  Criteria	Description	Marks
  Terrain Originality[c]How creative the terrain is while using only the WarCraft mpq to make it[c]/10 [r]Terrain Balance[c]Is the terrain equally balanced for each of the players[c]/10 [r]Model Originality and Execution[c]How original and well made the added models are[c]/30 [r]Coding[c]How clean the coded abilities are[c]/10 [r]Abilities[c]How original the added abilities are[c]/10 [r]Overall Balance[c]Are the two races balanced after the additions have been made[c]/20 [r]Race Flow[c]How well do the added models and spells fit to the selected races	/10

  
  [*]50 % of the winner shall be determined by the contest's appointed judge(s).
  [*]50 % of the winner shall be determined by the results of a public poll.

Contest Dates And Deadline

• Each map must be complete and submitted 6 weeks after the contest begins.
  The contest shall begin on September 4th, 2008 and conclude on [rainbow]
  October 18th, 2008[/rainbow] (GMT)

Each team must have a spokesperson who's going to declare the team members, the team name, and submit the final map.
Team members, and names will be filled in the following sheet.

Race Expansion Teams:

Team Name	Modeler	Coder	Terrainer

 

[LiOneSS]

Meh it is better 50% poll, 50% judges so people can't complain about people getting votes from 'fanboys'

 

[Hawkwing]

Ya, I agree. 100% public vote will result in, partly, a popularity contest.

 

[PurplePoot]

It also would mean that the coders would get little to no credit for how well they did their job.

Anyways, nice idea indeed. I think I'd have to enter if this got started .

 

[frostwhisper]

Ya, I agree. 100% public vote will result in, partly, a popularity contest.

I fully agree. Like I said, that thingie back there was a WIP. It is subject to change.

Most important, we need to find judges.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

See the problem here is, Coders and Modellers have Shitloads to do. 8 Custom models, and 24 spells.

While the terrainer terrains the map. I mean, if he really wants to make it nice and detailed ya..

Actually when i think about it, im gonna make my terrain look pretty freakin' epic while also keeping it fair and symmetrical.

Ya this makes sense actually.

 

[PurplePoot]

I count 16 spells plus however many you choose to add to units, not 24.

 

[Hawkwing]

True but there's nothing you can do about that.

 

[frostwhisper]

Well... up to 24 meaning the 16 for the heroes and up to +8 for the units...

 

[Steel_Stallion]

I say we get this started as soon as possible.

 

[Artins the Great]

Do u have to have three people working on tha map? Almean,.... come on, u know what i mean.

 

[Hawkwing]

Yes, you do. I'm pretty sure that's the point. Teamwork.

 

[Pyritie]

You have guidelines for the modelers and coders, but what about the terrainers? Can they use imports? What's the minimum map size? How many screenshots to be included minimum? How many players should the map be for? Does there have to be any creeps/neutral buildings? Etc.

 

[Hero_Lief]

Yeah, some extra info would be nice. And I'd love to see this contest come to life, I'd enter it ASAP as a terrainer. Start askin' Ralle.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Lets look logically at how the teams should be layed out as

we believe that making a competition involving teams

All teams need a captian who will keep everyone working efficently and hold them together. Thus 1 person here but remember he has to work.
Terrain is not that major. Thus 1 person per team for that, any more can be subs from other jobs.
Modeling is a large part as there needs to be 8 custom models, 4 for heroes and 4 for buildings which are probably a lot of work. This alone sugests the need for atleast 2 modelers (4 models each) per team which sadly may be lacking as they are few and far between. Thus this may be a large problem to make unique models and may also limate the number of teams.
16+ custom triggered melee ballenced spells sounds easy, 3 people working at that should be enough.

Lets now look at the team size.
1 captian
1 teraner
2+ modelers
3+ triggeres

This alone brings each team to a size of atleast 7. With any fewer people and doing something like this would eithor take a very long time or overload people with too much work causing them to drop out.

Also do not forget the problem with new buildings - most WC3 races have full build lists.
Thus how will they add the new building or will they all be upgrades of existing ones?

I am sure if you could form a good group of 7 that such a contest would be great fun, but any less and work recources may be spread a bit thin, especially modeler wise.

Thus unless such large groups are what everyone wants, it may be recomendable to reduce it to 2 races if not even 1. Otherwise it will be not so much the question of "Who is the best?" but the question of "Who fully completed the contest?".

 

[Pyritie]

Wait, we're doing one hero and building for each race? I thought we'd just be adding it to one race.

8 models is a lot of work for one person. Two models is much more reasonable.

 

[PurplePoot]

DSG, your point about buildings is valid, but 3 triggerers for 16 melee-balanced spells?

One person could do it, no sweat.

 

[Gilles]

I retract my offer to judge. I'll decide if I want to later.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

DSG, You have 3 triggerers, when they just have 16 spells to do. And 2 Modellers when there are 8 custom models to be made.

Ok, i'm not really an expert on modelling. I barley edit existing models to save my life, but i'm pretty sure 8 decent models are pretty fucking hard.

And wtf is the captain for? If the team wins he'd be getting an icon for nip.

It should be:

1 Terrainer
1 Coder
2 Modellers

A small and organized even team of 4. 7 people would be much harder to coordinate.


With the models divided up to 4 each modeller, it would be much easier to cope with. And 1 Coder is more than enough for 16 spells.

Also, i suggest that the minimum map size be atleast medium. So the terrainer does his share of work.

 

[frostwhisper]

You have guidelines for the modelers and coders, but what about the terrainers? Can they use imports? What's the minimum map size? How many screenshots to be included minimum? How many players should the map be for? Does there have to be any creeps/neutral buildings? Etc.

I've added some information concerning the terrainers guidelines (4 players minimum, no imports etc etc). I'll be adding more today, as last night I wasn't exactly sober.

Lets look logically at how the teams should be layed out as

All teams need a captian who will keep everyone working efficently and hold them together.

No, not in this case they don't.

I am sure if you could form a good group of 7 that such a contest would be great fun, but any less and work recources may be spread a bit thin, especially modeler wise.

They will spread very thin, modeler and coder wise. Groups of 7 are too hard to handle.

Thus unless such large groups are what everyone wants, it may be recomendable to reduce it to 2 races if not even 1. Otherwise it will be not so much the question of "Who is the best?" but the question of "Who fully completed the contest?".

I was thinking something similar, but then how would a race with an additional building, hero and unit be balanced with the rest :\

Having two might be the answer though, I'll consult my advisers on that.

DSG, your point about buildings is valid, but 3 triggerers for 16 melee-balanced spells?

One person could do it, no sweat.

Aye.

Also do not forget the problem with new buildings - most WC3 races have full build lists.

Fuck...

 

[matyko]

I like the idea!
..Though I have a few thoughts on it:
1.) Why must every new unit get a costum model made ESPECIALLY for this contest? There are many unused blizz, and many blizz-quality models on the site...
2.) Why only one unit + building per race? I'd say that controling how many new costum units and buildings would block too much possibilites (in my opinion, anyways).
3.) Building List filled? no problem! Just add an advanced builder, or change some of the structures, like the shops, into units.(Eg: Making shops becoming VERY slow wagons)
Voila, one new building slot! (Overusing this idea though can cause epic phails )

Anyways, I'd gladly join this contest...
Only job I must do now is to find a group.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

1.) Why must every new unit get a costum model made ESPECIALLY for this contest? There are many unused blizz, and many blizz-quality models on the site...

Because thats the competition! The competition is supposed to have a Modeller MODEL.

2.) Why only one unit + building per race? I'd say that controling how many new costum units and buildings would block too much possibilites (in my opinion, anyways).

- One new building per race with its own distinct function: requiring a custom model.
- One new hero per race with 4 unique and functional spells: requiring a custom model.
- One new custom unit per race (manufactured by the added building) along with up to two upgrades and abilities concerning that unit, added to the tech-trees. This unit must be selected from the game's mpq (it cannot be an import).

Thats PER RACE. That means 4 New buildings, 4 New units. Thats 8 custom models for the modeller. I dont think people would WANT to make more than that, even if given the option.

3.) Building List filled? no problem! Just add an advanced builder, or change some of the structures, like the shops, into units.(Eg: Making shops becoming VERY slow wagons)
Voila, one new building slot! (Overusing this idea though can cause epic phails )

Cant we just add in a simple "Switch" ability, that causes the worker to be replaced by another worker (Exact same model/stats) but with the new structures in his build list? (And a switch back)

That takes like a few lines of GUI. Much easier than what you're saying.

 

[Hero_Lief]

1)
Definitely agreed.

2)
Agreed as well.

3)
Simply you could either make the new buildings evolutions of existing ones, or if there is an empty space, you could make them whatever. Moving shops? No offense, but... Any would be epic phails.

 

[Xatoga]

I'm in if anyone wants to team. I'll model I suppose. Are we allowing geomerges, or is it scratch only? I think with the load of models necessary, merging should be okay.

 

[PurplePoot]

We could just drop the building per race and have the racial unit be custom-modeled too?

That way the workload remains effectively the same, but the end product is more fitting. It also means the people have to be a bit more creative in what they do with their race.

 

[Gilles]

We could just drop the building per race and have the racial unit be custom-modeled too?

That way the workload remains effectively the same, but the end product is more fitting. It also means the people have to be a bit more creative in what they do with their race.

I think this is the beast idea. Although we could just add a second build spell to the workers. Like Starcraft.

 

[Dr Super Good]

How about drop the building but add 8 custom technologies (with custom ICONS ofcourse and 2 per race)?
There are tons of technology slots available.
Eithor that or make the building upgradable of an exiting building.

The captian would be someone who keeps the team together (makes sure the ballence is ok and basically controles the execution of ideas). Like I said he would have to work, probably being a teraner or a spell maker which would reduce the team size but in the end, he is the person who will submit his teams work once it is done.

The prizes would have to be shaired equally, and all team sizes should be standardized to make sure awards are fair.

16+ custom spells is far too much for 1 person in a contest. The largest we have had has been like 4-5 abilities for a custom hero but never asking 1 person to make 16 for a contest. Ofcourse it is doable but it would eat too much time for 1 person especially if the spells have to be well made. Remember that the more effort a submission is on 1 person, the fewer people will enter.

2 triggeres I recomend atleast as 2 fully custom heroes each is enough for a contest, especially if they do it as a hobby with not much free time.

Modeling would probably feature a lot of geomergers as scratch modeling and animating is too hard for most people, it should be ok as long as the end product is not crap.

You could reduce work load simply by cutting the number of races in half. 2 custom heroes is ok for a spell maker to do, also thats half the number of needed models but then is the question of how to ballence the races. Simlpe, eithor team them up with another team doing the other 2 races or ballence it as as they are.

The new hero should be as good as any other hero so even if another race does not have one, it still should be ballenced. Same goes for the new units and things.

 

[PurplePoot]

DSG, this doesn't by any means imply the spells have to be completely fancy. As for workload, a homing projectile spell with an ending effect (a medium-level example, considering the simplicity of Melee spells, in fact more complicated than many potential spells) takes less than 10 minutes to make.

 

[Dr Super Good]

I dought less than 10 minutes unless some kind of pre created system is used for storing handles or something. Setting up the dummy spell alone takes 4+ minutes making sure the tooltip is well made. Then comes the planning of how you are going to code the spell to be efficent. Then comes the actual coding followed by debugging (takes time as you have to look up any obscure natives you want to use). Then comes the polishing of the ability, making sure the effets and that are visable only when they should be. All that takes time, so unless you spend your entire life JASSing which I dought most people do, it will not be a simple few minute job.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Stop mentioning the Captain!

Each person has to attribute in a modding skill. Because this is a Modding competition, not a leadership test.

The Captain is useless, has the easiest job and will earn an icon for nothing if the team wins. People will fight OVER being the captain, they will complain that the captain did not actually do ANYTHING (Which he probebly didnt)

Captains are such a stupid idea.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Like I said he would have to work, probably being a teraner or a spell maker which would reduce the team size but in the end, he is the person who will submit his teams work once it is done.

Steel_Stallion, please read what I write fully infuture.

You need someone to make sure everything gets put together correctly.

The WRONG way to do this.
5 people work as a team.
1 teranner 2 modelers and 2 triggeres
They start off going their own ways.
The teraner is fine as he pretty much does everything as far as map looks are concerened.
The modelers however start by both making models without planning. It ends up they both waste time making models that can not be used as the other has already made models for that race.
The Triggeres have the same problem doubling up hereos for the same race.
The triggerer then notices the hero model he was given with wields a sword does not fit his spells made for a staff wielding mage.
A modeler then submits it as soon as it is put together think it is done.
The teraner however when testing notices that the added content is not very well ballenced and tells the triggeres to fix it.
The ballence problems are fixed and the map is submitted, but in a confusing or unclear way.
The judge grabs the out of date map version thinking that that is the one they entered and half their team says it is the lattest.
In the end the group loses definatly.

The RIGHT way to do this.
5 people work as a team.
1 teranner 2 modelers and 2 triggeres (one of which is the leader of the team)
They start off discussing what has to be done and plan what they will add carefully.
The teraner sets off to make his terane like the other team above.
The modelers and Triggerers however discussed what they will make and so all the content they made matched (no unneeded models for the same race or wrong spell type for a hero model).
Everything is put together after it is made and then tested by everyone.
It looked fine so the leader submitted it after everyone agreed.
After more testing some ballence problems are noticed before the end of the contest time.
They are corrected and the leader then updates the map clearly saying that that is the version they want used.
The team ends up doing well.

Although the above are extreem cases, someone definatly needs to take responsiability for their team. I am sure it would be a lot less confusing for the judge as well when finding the maps to rate. It would also stop people delighbertly making their team lose by submitting broken work just so that everyone loses.

And again, the leader / captian of the team would have to work, he can not be a lazy person.

 

[matyko]

Because thats the competition! The competition is supposed to have a Modeller MODEL.

That, I know, but the rules could be worded like so: Atleast one model has to be costum made for this contest. That way modellers got their job to do, yet we dont loose the power of the TENS of thousands models we already have here archived.

Thats PER RACE. That means 4 New buildings, 4 New units. Thats 8 custom models for the modeller. I dont think people would WANT to make more than that, even if given the option.

I understand that. Again, you turn to the modeler. And again, I must say, that weight can be lifted from his(/her) shoulders if we ALLOW already made costum models.

Cant we just add in a simple "Switch" ability, that causes the worker to be replaced by another worker (Exact same model/stats) but with the new structures in his build list? (And a switch back)

That takes like a few lines of GUI. Much easier than what you're saying.

Course it is. Only problem is, all the switchers I've seen work rather slow/were bugged. If one can make this work good and proper, please, by all means do so, and I accept that what I said is complete lunacy.
I only turned to that (khm...)ALTERNATIVE idea, because I thought all other options were too bulky. My bad.

 

[Gilles]

Teams of three only please!

 

[PurplePoot]

DSG, why exactly do you need a leader to coordinate people? It's not like they can't talk without one.

And 10 minutes is not at all ridiculous... there are stock methods to do most kinds of spells that are quite efficient and require no thinking whatsoever.

 

[frostwhisper]

Yadda-yadda-yadda

No.

Teams of three only, please!

Yes.

 

[Xatoga]

I'll take some initiative. Modeler LFG.

Also, I demand my team's name is Team Dinosaurs.

 

[Pyritie]

I still think 8 models is too much. You see what goes into modeling contests; it's at least a month for one model. Making the requirement be 2 or 3 models is more reasonable, as otherwise some people would start but lose motivation to finish. Same goes for the coders.