Existence of God

[MySpaceBarBroke]

*goes back 3 pages*
Oh! Now I remember!

Does anyone else have reasons why the concept of god is illogical?

Burden of proof is yours. You can't disprove what has not yet been proven.

Yay! #300!

awesome.

 

[Hakeem]

I'm asking people who voted for "No, it's just an invention." so I can dispel the arguments against god. (Besides the argument of lack of proof.)

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I'm asking people who voted for "No, it's just an invention." so I can dispel the arguments against god. (Besides the argument of lack of proof.)

You can't prove a negative.

 

[donut3.5]

You can't prove nonexistance, because you have not tested every single case. however, you can make an inference based on current knowledge that states it has not been proven yet. Such as with flying pigs. Pigs don't fly, but we only know because a pig has never flown yet.
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

Look, Hakeem, it's a lot easy to see the argument a little more impartially before choosing a side if you consider;

A) There could be a reason for us living without including a greater being.

B) There is no reason why there would need to be any point of our existence.


And please, you're not dispelling our arguments. "Because God!" is not the all-powerful argument.

And what about the 7 people who voted being able to prove it with logic, and yet haven't done so?

 

[Elenai]

And thus those who believe in God are admonished because they seem to provide no proof of his existence, and thus the athiest says that God is an illogical invention.

And yet upon the other side of the mind's debocling debate he who is the athiest is un-capable of proving that God does not exist, constantly using the same quotes over and over in a jaded cycle in a stalemate of horror.

Both sides push and pull and bludgeon that logic is on their side. When perhaps logic itself is not on either side, and knowledge itself is turned backwards as humanity tries desperately to fathom with it's tiny mind the infinate and the omnipotent.

Like ants we are trying to understand the purposes of a Formicologist. The Formicologist knows logically what he is doing. But the ant is at a loss to fiqure out what this great power is doing and why.

 

[LordOglog]

This may have already been said in the past 20 or so pages of this thread i didn't bother to read, but new scientist magazine did a very interesting article a little while ago on this sort of subject and mainly does god have a point rather than does he/she exist. The article says that morals are hard wired into the brain so there is no need for a god or many gods to have been invented to teach people how to be moral.

 

[Elenai]

God serves purposes besides a "Morality giver".

He creates, he blesses, he gives hope, he places obstacles in our path to make us stronger, he does all kinds of things besides give the law.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

People who think life is pointless without god are ridiculous.

Life is what you want it to be, it's a chemical reaction, there is no godly miracle in pregancy.

The point of life is what you want it to be, the goals you set for yourself. I refuse to live simply to have an afterlife.
Make most of the time you have instead of thinking of an after-life you can't be sure even exists. And if you live well, if you are a good person, if you help others, for the promise of a good afterlife, you are doing them for the wrong reasons. Whether there is an afterlife or not.

And frankly, until you can prove "god", then you can't prove an afterlife.

Back to the originial topic though, no one can know, no one can prove if there is a god or not, which makes this thread utterly pointless.

Forget this terribly useless conversation. If there is a god and an afterlife, we'll know when we die, and frankly, the chances of nothign happening are a lot bigger than your sould exiting your body and flying to heaven. The idea is just too damn far-fetched for me to believe.

 

[Elenai]

And the idea that trillions of years ago a spec of matter exploded to create a highly complex and organized universe billions of light years wide/long/deep and that on a planet formed from that mass of matter explosion debris, the conditions for making life were so perfect that a group of elements randomly combined under the correct conditions to form amino acids, and then those amino acids randomly forged themselves into the perfect chains of amino acids required to make proteins, and then those proteins then randomly connected into the correct combinations required to make a complex code of DNA, and the various extremely complex parts of a cell, and that cell would then spend millions of years going through mitosis experiencing massive amounts of beneficial mutations that would cause a single celled organism to become 2cell'd, then 3cell'd then 4cell'd....then a multi cell'd organism.....then a fish, and that fish go through hundreds of beneficial mutations to become another fish and that fish...........and then thousands of fish later that fish's decendents became an amphibian........

Now that is a concept too farfetched for me and many others to believe.

 

[PurplePoot]

Elenai;

A) They've recreated the big bang. (tiny versions of course)

B) I'm almost definitely sure that they've also recreated life starting.

C) There are an unfathomable amount of planets in our universe. There was a very low chance for life to form, so almost all of them probably have none, meaning that it's not so unlikely.

You can't believe stuff like that, but you can believe "And god said 'Let there be light!' and there was light."?

Let's weigh the chances;

-The chance of, out of an endless amount (or so we know) of worlds, a few springing up with life

-In the entire universe, 1 supreme being springing up

I think I know which side I'm on.

 

[Elenai]

Of course they recreated it....And of course you know that inorder to recreate those pheonoenon on even a small scale, they had to design and test and ect, intelligently and all under pristine lab conditions.

All that randomly happening in the universe. Is nearly ZILTCH.

And of course the chances you weighed. Are hardly opposites. The chances of a god springing up and the chances of the universe forming itself from a spec of matter that came from nowhere, and life springing up randomly from nowhere when it requires a delicate hand and perfect conditions to make life. Are just about the same. Infact the chances of a god being there are atleast a little more plausible because this universe is too organized and set for it to just happen randomly. And creation of the universe by a god would mean a more organized creation.

Throw out lego blocks randomly on the floor and see if it makes a lego model.

Put blocks together intelligently and you can make all kinds of things.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

And thus those who believe in God are admonished because they seem to provide no proof of his existence, and thus the athiest says that God is an illogical invention.

And yet upon the other side of the mind's debocling debate he who is the athiest is un-capable of proving that God does not exist, constantly using the same quotes over and over in a jaded cycle in a stalemate of horror

And yet it is he who calls himself epic that fails to recognize the words "you cannot prove a negative". I will offer you proof of god's nonexistence when you prove to me the easter bunny does not exist.

 

[Elenai]

Offer me absolute unrefuteable proof that evolution is the only way that life came to be. And I'll offer you proof that the easterbunny does not exist.


And I am indeed EPIC.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Of course they recreated it....And of course you know that inorder to recreate those pheonoenon on even a small scale, they had to design and test and ect, intelligently and all under pristine lab conditions.

All that randomly happening in the universe. Is nearly ZILTCH.

Nearly Ziltch. Apply nearly Ziltch to an almost endless universe, and imagine that if it did happen like such, what might one think? That they are the only ones.

And of course the chances you weighed. Are hardly opposites. The chances of a god springing up and the chances of the universe forming itself from a spec of matter that came from nowhere, and life springing up randomly from nowhere when it requires a delicate hand and perfect conditions to make life. Are just about the same. Infact the chances of a god being there are atleast a little more plausible because this universe is too organized and set for it to just happen randomly. And creation of the universe by a god would mean a more organized creation.

The spec of matter did not come from nowhere, as you claimed. The spec of matter could have been the result of a big crunch for all we know. Life did not come from nowhere. It came from matter.

Throw out lego blocks randomly on the floor and see if it makes a lego model.

Put blocks together intelligently and you can make all kinds of things.

Throw out lego blocks randomly for trillions of times on the floor and you will see that two might attach. The attached two will start attaching more on themselves.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Offer me absolute unrefuteable proof that evolution is the only way that life came to be. And I'll offer you proof that the easterbunny does not exist.

I would, but
1. I don't study this crap at college. I study biology honors at high school. Perhaps later.
2. Irrefutable is impossible, because you can say "oh, god just made all that to test us"
3. The big bang is, as many say, "just a theory".
4. Therefore, burden of proof = God-supporters and evolutionists.

And I am indeed EPIC.

[SPOILSPORT][RAINBOW]Poser[/RAINBOW][/SPOILSPORT]

 

[Elenai]

And even if the spec was from a crunch, How did the universe before that crunch into a spec. And were did the material for that crunch come from.
Since the big bang has to come from a natural process, following natural laws. It has to have some kind of origin that follows the basic law "Conservation of mass/energy".

Life came from matter yes it did...But life does not just randomly form from matter. Especially with the complex requirments for the basic building blocks of life to even come into being. Let alone do anything else through randomness.

And throwing out lego blocks trillions of times still only makes 2 connect? How silly. 2 blocks a universe does not make, neither do 2 blocks make a complex code of DNA thats worth at least thousands of blocks. Or an amino acid chain that requires a highly accurate connection inorder for life to even exist.

I am still EPIC afterall who was the first here to spread EPICism......*cough* me *cough*

 

[donut3.5]

Lego block analogy doesn't work. Legos are inanimate. Single celled organisms are living things. If legos are animated, then I'm sure they would build a massive army on their own and fuck the human twice over, considering how many exist. Just like how the trillions of cells make something (eventually people) that inhabited this planet, and have become the most prominent effect on this planet.
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

Lego block analogy does work. Afterall a cell is made up of proteins, that are made of animo acids, that are made of elements like nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen, ect. And those elements are inanimate (other than proton, electron, neutron activity)

Even still those cells did not come into existence through random processes.

 

[donut3.5]

Even so, if those cells didn't come into process by any chance, then how did they come into play? You already contradicted my idea about God creating single cells as opposed to single humans.
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

My belief is that God created man and animals and single celled organisms as whole specimens.

But for sake of an answer.

A god creates the universe (in some way), the god goes to planets, makes the conditions right (or the conditions were made right in the first place), the god then makes life, he makes basic animals IE: Dinosaurs, cats, wolves, horses, birds of different types, insects of their kinds, ect. Those then adapt certain characteristics. IE: A basic parrot developes different beaks and becomes different kinds of parrots.

These animals didnt have to evolve from a single cell, that randomly came about, from a randomly born universe.

It could have been designed by some sort of creator. Thus an organized system of life, and organized system in the universe is made.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

And even if the spec was from a crunch, How did the universe before that crunch into a spec. And were did the material for that crunch come from.
Since the big bang has to come from a natural process, following natural laws. It has to have some kind of origin that follows the basic law "Conservation of mass/energy".

I'm going to explain to you how. If you attempt to accelerate an object to the speed of light, there comes a point where the object's energy decreases, and its mass increases. A huge amount of energy was converted to a small amount of mass.Split an atom, and you have a small amount of mass converted into an unbelievable amount of energy. Nobody knows where the big bang's energy came from, but it was there.

Life came from matter yes it did...But life does not just randomly form from matter. Especially with the complex requirments for the basic building blocks of life to even come into being. Let alone do anything else through randomness.

"Randomness" runs your entire day. Do you come across a train that makes you late? Does your teacher spontaneously decide to check on something you were supposed to be doing but didn't? Does somebody casually mention something that piques your interest and changes the direction of your life by a degree or so? C-h-a-o-s t-h-e-o-r-y. All systems tend towards disorder. Would you like to know why chaos theory died? Because it applies to too many things. The "order" in the universe exists only on a macroscopic level.

And throwing out lego blocks trillions of times still only makes 2 connect? How silly. 2 blocks a universe does not make, neither do 2 blocks make a complex code of DNA thats worth at least thousands of blocks. Or an amino acid chain that requires a highly accurate connection inorder for life to even exist.

Analogy fails. There are chemical reasons why individual atoms are likely to bond. No such reason for Lego blocks. Also, that "clean pristine lab environment" contained an environment based on what scientists believe primordial Earth to have been like. Organic molecules formed on their own.

 

[Elenai]

Organic molecules forming according to a scientists design.

And did those molecules connect to form proteins, and then those proteins form a cell, and did that cell start evolving? I suppose it didnt.

They failed to create life. They only made the building blocks. And yet even still...They had to "make" it.

And even the random things that happen in our life. Are not by random coincidence. And even on the smallest scale in life. There is a complex balance of order.

Homeostasis is an example of this.

 

[Hakeem]

Here ya go: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40420
Evolution doesn't prove or disprove god.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

And even the random things that happen in our life. Are not by random coincidence. And even on the smallest scale in life. There is a complex balance of order.

Yes, like the fact that it's physically possible for a single particle to be in two separate places at the exact same time, for no reason at all. That just sings "order" to me. Oh wait, no it doesn't. It sings "chaos" to me; what the hell is it doing in two places at once, and wouldn't that fuck up whatever it was part of? Lucky for us that it's just a lone particle.

Evolution doesn't prove or disprove god.

Agreed. Evolution could be a work of God, I really don't see why people can't accept that.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I am still EPIC afterall who was the first here to spread EPICism......*cough* me *cough*

This is even worse than Pyritie thinking he's a dragon. Get off that stupid trend of yours and stop being so full of yourself.
It's not funny, you just look like an ass.

 

[Elenai]

And you should stop being angry.

 

[donut3.5]

Elenai, WILL, stop. Now.
And Hakeem, we don't need a new thread to spam, it's obvious this one IS now an evolution thread.
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Agreed. Evolution could be a work of God, I really don't see why people can't accept that.

Because evolution is anti-christian, and everyone knows the word christian is synonymous with god. Oh wait..

Elenai, WILL, stop. Now.
And Hakeem, we don't need a new thread to spam, it's obvious this one IS now an evolution thread.
--donut3.5--

No such thing as thread metamorphosis. Just thread hijacking.

 

[Elenai]

I took my focus to the Evolution thread. So I suppose this is back on the "conventional" topic of god's existence.

 

[Hakeem]

[OFFTOPIC]Epic is boring. Contradiction? Maybe. But it's true.[/OFFTOPIC]
P.S.
I realize I made a horrible mistake making that thread.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Yes, seriously, don't make any more threads about big topics such as these. It's just plain source for trouble...

 

[Wolverabid]

[off-topic]

I'm actually rather surprised that it took over 300 posts before someone reported this thread.

It's a very divisive, touchy subject. I'd recommend letting it wither upon the vine, as it seems to have been fully explored by those who have already posted here.

Further reports about this thread will result in its closure.

Back on topic:

Yes, but I only believe. I can't prove it.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Back on topic:

Yes, but I only believe. I can't prove it.

IMO, God has to be shown to you, not proven. Mostly because S/He's impossible to prove (or disprove).

 

[Hakeem]

I'm actually rather surprised that it took over 300 posts before someone reported this thread.

It's a very divisive, touchy subject. I'd recommend letting it wither upon the vine, as it seems to have been fully explored by those who have already posted here.

Yay! I make threads well!

And your post is #333! Half devil! Priest! Priest!

 

[PurplePoot]

Throw out lego blocks randomly on the floor and see if it makes a lego model.

Put blocks together intelligently and you can make all kinds of things.

Where did god link with putting lego blocks intelligently together versus tossing them on the floor?

---

It strikes me sort of funny, with you ranting on about the unlikeliness of simple matter existing for god knows what reason, and yet about how obvious it is that not only something, but something all-powerful came instead.

One strikes me as significantly more likely than the other. I think I'll place my bet on that.

 

[Hakeem]

Rewind time forever and you get to a point where nothing at all existed. This must be true. An endless void is the default.

In such a state as nothingness, what could have possibly triggered anything to exist? Honestly, not even god should have been created.

And to say god always existed seems impossible.

 

[donut3.5]

Keep counting down from 0, yet you will never reach negative infinity...
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Rewind time forever and you get to a point where nothing at all existed. This must be true. An endless void is the default.

You don't know that.
It's just as likely that the universe existed forever.

 

[Hakeem]

How can anything exist without being created?

 

[JarrardKO]

What created God then?

Human imagination.

Who wrote the bible?

Human.

Who made the contradictions in the bible?

Human error.

Lawl. Personally, I believe in the flying spaghetti monster.

 

[Hakeem]

Indeed, why does anything exist?

 

[Hawk07]

Well, the God doesn't exist and I say that because if HE did, HE would guide people to be good and so on.... but nowadays we're all evil!!! So..... we lost contact with him in the mid of the way and now we keep walking alone! That's why this world is destined to collaplse. We have about 50 years on this planet before it gets destroyed completely. Why should i bother knowing about God and so? Shouldn't I enjoy my life? I don't even mind the whole thing!

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Man is evil from deep in, but many people are not evil. Sounds confusing ain't it?
To my opinion there is no evil nor good, it's what people think. God is just a flying spagetti monster to me and Jesus is just a hocuspocus guy.
My new slogan from Homer: I rest my case.

 

[PurplePoot]

Pastafarians are win, Jarrard.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Yeah, pastafaria is the new christianity, you people need to catch up.

 

[Elenai]

Mmmmmmnnn.....Pasta. I SHALL EAT YOUR SPAGETTII GOD!!!! With a dusting of the holiest parmesean cheese known in existence of course.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Mmmmmmnnn.....Pasta. I SHALL EAT YOUR SPAGETTII GOD!!!! With a dusting of the holiest parmesean cheese known in existence of course.

It's more likely the Spaghetti monster would be butt-raping your god with its noodly appendages.

 

[Hakeem]

Well, the God doesn't exist and I say that because if HE did, HE would guide people to be good and so on.... but nowadays we're all evil!!! So..... we lost contact with him in the mid of the way and now we keep walking alone! That's why this world is destined to collaplse. We have about 50 years on this planet before it gets destroyed completely. Why should i bother knowing about God and so? Shouldn't I enjoy my life? I don't even mind the whole thing!

Is that another 'Why does god let evil happen?' post?
Read the whole thread before posting.

noodly appendages.

That sounds soooo wrong if your mind is in the gutter...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

That sounds soooo wrong if your mind is in the gutter...