Existence of God

[Hakeem]

Nope. It's not about any religion. It's about god. God might be a chicken. but that's irrelevant. This is only about the existence of god.

Elenai, didn't you read the first page?

WARNING:
Some information in this book is true, but it leaves out a whole lot of important information. If you use the information in this book you will look like a biased moron. Just don't do it ok?
If you want real knowledge, then I suggest you read "An Unbiased Accoun of Evolution".

 

[Elenai]

...And so why are you showing me this. Is this sarcasm? Are you mocking me? Or am I just taking that post the wrong way.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach Hakeem. Afterall most evolutionists are biased against any idea of Creation, or God for that matter. And most books in support of Evolution are biased against God as well.

I suppose I should get back on topic, (I wasnt the one to first veer off course by the way)

The Existence of God.....And why he is not a chicken.

 

[PurplePoot]

DISCLAIMER: I have read only the first page and the last page, none more. Thus, some stuff here may be repeated from earlier. (EDIT: reading the rest of the thread, editing as I go)

EDIT: on page 7, I'll give it a rest for awhile, I'll cover 8+ another post.

I vote god is an invention.

Why?

Well, here comes the cliché opening; if god loves everything, (or whatever...) what's up with the majority of the world?

Second; We can see from documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls that (Christianity) twisted their religion to give the church more power by making Jesus into a god as opposed to an ordinary man, and such. If god was real, why would he let people use him to their own advantage, (party) to get money? (Don't tell me at least parts of (some) religion aren't a scam for money, such as back when they sold you time in heaven, and the church collection plate...)

Next; If the bible is some document of god or whatever, why does it advocate random murder, contradictory statements, etc?

And I want to see a "Yes: I can prove it with logic" answer (if it was provable, it would have been proven ages ago)

Im only going to say:

When you can prove to me he/she/it doesn't exist, I will prove to you he/she/it does.

Imagine what society would be like if everyone thought that you had to disprove anything, not prove it...

Disprove that you killed my second cousin, thrice removed! Gl hf.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach Hakeem. Afterall most evolutionists are biased against any idea of Creation, or God for that matter. And most books in support of Evolution are biased against God as well.

You really should be, if you're trying to make something based on fact and not faith...

I can merely look on at the unknowingness of humanity. And nod my head in sadness

What's funny is that this is coming from a christian [/bash]

(Sorry, no offense, but I couldn't resist)

If you prefer to think that way, then realize that they choose ignorance.

I'm sorry, but that's just as arguable (if not more) against you.

ponder this one question for everyone.

If God is real. (which I believe, but thats irrelevent to the question)

Then what will happen to you?

You'll be really disappointed, and have wasted a lot of time, if he doesn't, so that goes both ways.

And isn't he supposed to forgive everyone that asks?

Also, I haven't been smitten to date

Not scientifically, but logically.
But not everyone accept logic as fact, little do they realize that logic must be true in order for science to prove anything.

Logically proven? I'd like that logical proof in type.

Who knows? God might favor evil people and just not tell us.

So we're evil because you don't like our opinion? Jeez, standard religious argument much?

Pinch yourself. What felt that? Your saying chemical reactions have something that feels? All chemical reactions feel? There is nothing in the brain that accounts for why we experience pain. And who knows when it enter? It doesn't matter when.

Yes there are. They're called nerves.

My point was: Should it matter that I kill you if there is no such thing as a soul?

Not if you don't mind spending a lifetime in jail.

I think Christianity has saved human existence, when it was first founded, it preached peace, which is extremly important, something the world needed, and it in turn saved lives, made peace.
But when people go kill in the name of their religion, then they go too far. The Crusades were stupid, and now sometimes religion can be an excuse for something.

Sorry, but I have to disagree that making life hell for the pagans, screwing up the Roman Empire, burning people at the stake, persecuting jewish people etc, etc, were very productive effects of Christianity.

I don't dispise Christianity. To me the Bible is a story book with a powerful and important moral, that people have decided was composed of facts and not stories.

I used to agree with that statement, but now I've seen things from the old testament that make my stomach turn. Also, if you want to preach a document, it's all or nothing, so it's not fair to say you can't count those bits.

Another answer: Spacebar says that he would go to Hell. (I ignored the "I dont know")

No, you told Spacebar he would go to hell because you don't agree with his religious inclinations.

And science has'nt proven that God does not exist my friend. But do not blame Christianity for those who tell lies, make wars, and make false/evil uses of the Bible's teachings. Fore they are not true Christians. They are basically people who hide behind the church door and claim to be Christians.

Apparently the church isn't christian, then? Uh-oh, who will you turn to now?

Redeemer: Excuse me but...That quote is wrong.

And the reason evil and sin exist is because:
1: Satan's rebellion against God.
2: Because man decide to rebel against God also, and thus doomed himself to Hell if he doesnt repent.
3: Because Satan is going to experience his judgment in the end. Satan has yet to pay for his crimes against God. And in the end God will basically put him in prison. Thus God let him live so that he can pay for his crimes. Other than that angels (even fallen ones) are able to exist outside of Heaven or Hell.

But we should probably not discuss Christian Doctrine in this thread. Because I dont want to get in trouble....Again.

EDIT: unless Hakeem allows.

All that did is that prove that everything redeemer said was right; you're turning your faith into facts.

True, someone can never prove anything. This is the same with logically proving God. You can only say that God has not been dis proven.

Math can be proven, but that's about it.

That is true donut. True indeed.

But you must also look at the otherside of the coin.

"If a statement P implies a statement Q, and a statement R also implies Q, and either P or R is true, then the Q has to be true."

Or perhaps the famous quote.

"Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

You conveniently forgot to consider the case of both P and R being false.

GST: The gods of Egypt never gave me salvation, nor have they ever answerd my prayers as God has.

But even so, the archeological evidence is only half the equation. Peoples personal experiences of God's power is the other half.

And even so. The God of the Christians and the Jews has been around since......forever.

Christianity came around 30 AD, as far as I recall.

Also, surely your Christian god has answered your prayers and given you salvation, eh?

SuPa: You must'nt forget though. That the bible also contains versus describing the workings of the planet, not quite known. (the world being round was known, but these are different examples)

"Were other cosmologies found in religions have the world on the back of turtles, or the earth being the result of a fight between gods, biblical revelation is quite consistent with science. This is not to say that the Bible is vindicated by science; rather, it is science that is vindicated by the Bible. Consider the following: (note: all quotes are from the NIV)

The Spherical Shape of the Earth - "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22).
The Hebrew language did not have a word for "sphere." Circle is quite sufficient.

The Earth is suspended in nothing - "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7).

The Stars are Innumerable - "He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Genesis 15:5).

The Existence of Valleys in the Seas - "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:16).

The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas - "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.

The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas - "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8).

The Hydrologic Cycle - "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8).
- "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28)
- "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7).

The Concept of Entropy - "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:25-26)."

This also makes the point that just because we believe in a God does not mean that we (most Christians) are utterly against science.

Or maybe Christianity adopted science and then claimed to be the inventor of it. And it's pretty obvious that there are bajillions of starts everywhere.

That is also true Donut.

Teh_Ephy: Alot of those are not vague at all. They are quite plain and simple. And being supported by pillars....is suspended by pillars. Not by nothing. And you are leaving out one very important verse. The one with the valleys of the sea. And springs and fountains of the sea....are just that springs and fountains. Just because it isnt described in mathmatical formulae and super enhanced resolution HD camera detail with the scientific names of the specific phenomenon does not mean its vague and archaic.

Evidence remains valid.

Twisting the truth makes your argument no more valid than it was.

---

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that lots of what donut says (like the 1+1=7 thing) have been jokes. (True in a way, (of course you can create your own number system) but a joke in idea) I'm surprised no one else seemed to see this.

---

Anyways people, don't we already know that only mormons get in to heaven?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

The possibility of one amino acid forming that way are so large it has to be written in multi digit standard notation (we will call it "A"). The possibilty of many amino acids forming is "A" multiplied by many more (we will call that "B"). The probability of "B" forming together perfectly is 1 in 10 to the 240 (we will call that "C"). For "C" to become the THOUSANDS of genes in even the simplest organism is just enourmously ENOURMOUSLY improbable. Evolution is so improbable that it is as close to impossible as you can get.

Let's look at our universe. See how expansive and large and pretty much endless it is as we know it? Let's say they made a million raffle tickets. That can be considered pretty much impossible to win, right? But let's say 750,000 people bought one. Then it wouldn't be so unlikely that someone gets one, right? I mean, there is a 3/4 chance someone won it. It's comparable to our universe. While the unicellular organisms made might be highly unlikely, when you take our seemingly endless universe into hand, it's not so rare.

But who cares? Only Mormons go to heaven.

 

[PurplePoot]

Let's look at our universe. See how expansive and large and pretty much endless it is as we know it? Let's say they made a million raffle tickets. That can be considered pretty much impossible to win, right? But let's say 750,000 people bought one. Then it wouldn't be so unlikely that someone gets one, right? I mean, there is a 3/4 chance someone won it. It's comparable to our universe. While the unicellular organisms made might be highly unlikely, when you take our seemingly endless universe into hand, it's not so rare.

But who cares? Only Mormons go to heaven.

QFT

And MySpace, I'm guessing you understood the reference?

 

[GST_Nemisis]

The very probability of amino acids, (that make protiens essential for life) forming randomly from hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, sulphur, and nitrogen in the natural environment are [100 multiplied by itself 160 times : to 1] And the probability of those acids aligning perfectly (as even one amino acid misplaced life is impossible) is [1 in a 10 to the 240th power probability].

actually amino acids are surprisingly easy to form. there have been several experiments where those very elements have been left to their own devices in a pot at different temperatures or with electric charges to replicate lightning or many other situations and amino acids have randomly formed. also protiens didnt randomly form, they evolved too, from very simple ones to highly complex ones over time. i think some chinese students did a study where the put a small peice of DNA in some bacteria and monitered it through hundreds of generations. eventually the protien this DNA coded for got longer and longer, hence it evolved.

one thing that is slightly off putting is that if God did make us, he did a messy job when it comes to DNA. there are so many holes and things that should happen but do

 

[donut3.5]

---

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that lots of what donut says (like the 1+1=7 thing) have been jokes. (True in a way, (of course you can create your own number system) but a joke in idea) I'm surprised no one else seemed to see this.

---

Poot gets the win of the week award..
While it was somewhat debatable, I was throwing most of my stuff into this to see if we could slowly get away from just the boring:
"God is a fake!"
"No he's real!"
"I can't supply any argument, but he's still fake!"
"No, that means he's real!"
"Then where's your argument?"
"Faith is the only argument I need!"
"But God is a fake!"
"No he's real!"
etc etc etc, with a few random tangents added in.
With the whole faith thing, it's a circular argument. It's like saying: 1 + 2 is equal to 2. Why? 1 is too small to be counted. Why? You can obviously see it in the demonstration that 1 + 2 = 2. I could go through the entire thread and pick out every logical fallacy in here, and trust me, there are a LOT, but I'm too lazy
And that's the same for both situations. We can't prove or disprove anything, so we resort to wanky logic to bs our way through these arguments and hope we leave some sort of effect on the other side.
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

What's even more fun is saying 1 = -1, letting a huge debate ensue, then dropping proof. =O

And I'd say faith is more like saying 1 + 2 = 2 because it is

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

And MySpace, I'm guessing you understood the reference?

jup.





ohmygodimonfire

 

[PurplePoot]

actually amino acids are surprisingly easy to form. there have been several experiments where those very elements have been left to their own devices in a pot at different temperatures or with electric charges to replicate lightning or many other situations and amino acids have randomly formed. also protiens didnt randomly form, they evolved too, from very simple ones to highly complex ones over time. i think some chinese students did a study where the put a small peice of DNA in some bacteria and monitered it through hundreds of generations. eventually the protien this DNA coded for got longer and longer, hence it evolved.

one thing that is slightly off putting is that if God did make us, he did a messy job when it comes to DNA. there are so many holes and things that should happen but do

Meh, next thing you know they'll just say god did that on purpose...

---

Joke, semi-offtopic stuff follows. Read at your own risk

[The United Nations, day. In the main hall President Bush is
speaking to the Assembly]

BUSH
Ladies and gentlemen of the UN, we have
evidence that Saddam Hussein is up there
building weapons of mass destruction.
We have tried to communicate with Saddam
through a psychic to ask him to let
us see his warehouses in heaven. But
he has not responded.

INDIAN AMBASSADOR
Of course he has not responded, because
he's DEAD!

BUSH
Right. Dead, and in heaven.

ANOTHER AMBASSADOR
This is preposterous! Even if there
was a heaven, what makes you think Saddam
Hussein's soul would be sent there?


BUSH
Our intelligence tells us that when
Saddam was originally killed, his soul
actually went to hell. But while in
hell he began a homosexual relationship
with Satan, the Prince of Darkness.
Satan, however, decided he didn't want
to be with Hussein anymore and broke
up with him about August. When Saddam
became jealous and tried to kill Satan's
new lover, Chris, Satan had Saddam sent
to heaven to live with Mormons as a
punishment. Question? Yes?

ANOTHER AMBASSADOR
Are you high, or just incredibly stupid?


BUSH
I assure you, I am not high.

[Heaven. Weapons of mass destruction are seen among the clouds.
Saddam is right there shouting directions]

SADDAM HUSSEIN
Keep those nitrogen capsules over there
by the warheads! Right. Chop-chop. Come
on!

GOD
Saddam. I've been hearing rumors that
you're secretly building weapons of
mass destruction up here.

SADDAM HUSSEIN
Weapons of mass destruction? Nooo! This
is a chocolate chip factory. See?


GOD
It looks like a chemical weapons plant.


SADDAM HUSSEIN
Look, God, if I was gonna secretly build
a chemical weapons plant, I wouldn't
make it look like a chemical weapons
plant, would I? I'd make it look like
a chocolate chip factory or something.


GOD
...Alright, just checking.

SADDAM HUSSEIN
Stupid asshole!

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Carbon dating is solved by a mathmatical formula as you know (I wont insult your intelligence). And that formula relies on 3 assumptions to make it work. In mathmatics using 3 assumptions to solve a definate formula to find a definate solution, is impossible, makes the answer incorrect, and makes it unbelievable.

Carbon dating is not accurate.

People know, not assume, the amount of Carbon-14 within a living organism's body. People know, not assume, the half life of Carbon-14. I have no idea what your third thing could be. It's accurate enough.

Not only that Evolution is not scientifically supported by evidence or facts.

[HIGHLIGHT]!@#$[/code]... Evolution does have evidence. What it does not have is enough evidence to convince everyone.

It is not supported by the Law set down by Pasteur, "all life comes from life"

Touché.

Evolution is also filled with grave defects.

Yes.

Evolution is also not supported by probability. If Evolution is only done by natural selection and only natural phenomenon, then it is nigh impossible for Evolution to have occured.

About probability, absolutely. About natural selection etc., absolutely not. It's possible for certain genes to be expressed more often than others because of survival rate, whether or not those genes originated from random mutations, or just popped into existence.

The very probability of amino acids, (that make protiens essential for life) forming randomly from hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, sulphur, and nitrogen in the natural environment are [100 multiplied by itself 160 times : to 1] And the probability of those acids aligning perfectly (as even one amino acid misplaced life is impossible) is [1 in a 10 to the 240th power probability].

It's probably even higher than that. But, how many times have you ever seen something incredibly unlikely happen? Probably more than you realize.

It would take a miracle for that to happen.

Or that.

Evolution is not backed by the Carbon 14 dating system, or mathmatics itself. Neither is it backed by the precedent laws of nature set down by the fathers of modern science and it's applications like biology, physics, and ect.

Um... what the hell? Biology isn't invalidated solely on merit of not having any supporting math...

Evolution is psuedo science.

So is creationism.

The point I am also getting at is that while God could have (for the sake of considering Donut's proposal) invented the single cell. It would not have evolved. And even so God's word denies evolution. For if (again for the sake of considering) God did exist. His word would be true. And his word says he made us. Not made one cell and let it loose to become the other animals.

Oh-ho, here comes my sick, convoluted (if it's long enough to be called so) counterpoint. God is omniscient. Let's say that God, with his all-knowingness, creates single celled organisms with the knowledge that they will one day evolve into us. That makes denying evolution denying God.

Believe what you will. But know this. Evolution is a pseudo scientific hypothosis, not backed up by natural evidence.

It's backed by as much evidence as the bible (you can take that any way you want). The difference is which one has been around longer.

Hakeem: I know alot about Evolution my friend. And all my above statements are indeed true. Perhaps you should re study Evolution yourself. And not deem it totally as fact. Look at its mistakes, there are many. Enough to disprove it.

Could you directly state some of those mistakes, please?

The existence of God is'nt just about Christianity, yes that is true. It also involves Islam, and Judaism. For "God" is the god of those religions. And to ask the question of his existence is to delve deep into the fundemental beliefs that the three share incommon. The prime one being that God does exist.

So inshort while this thread is not just about Christianity. It is 1/3 of it atleast. But from what I've seen, there is neither Muslim, nor Hebrew here to support God's side of the story. So as a Christian I will use what I know to support God's side of the debate. Even if I have to bear the weight alone.

Those aren't the only monotheistic religions in the world. What about Pastafarianism? What about the others that I can't seem to name?

Donut: Even with billions of years, those odds are still so incredible it would take a miracle for it to occur. But in Evolution miracles dont exist.

The possibility of one amino acid forming that way are so large it has to be written in multi digit standard notation (we will call it "A"). The possibilty of many amino acids forming is "A" multiplied by many more (we will call that "B"). The probability of "B" forming together perfectly is 1 in 10 to the 240 (we will call that "C"). For "C" to become the THOUSANDS of genes in even the simplest organism is just enourmously ENOURMOUSLY improbable. Evolution is so improbable that it is as close to impossible as you can get.

*headpalm* Just because it's not likely to happen doesn't mean it won't. Have you even looked at my argument against "improbable" being a valid argument? Beauty pageants. Not to mention, Evolution has had BILLIONS of years. Once the base amino acids are formed, it isn't much of a stretch that they were copied poorly enough to do something completely different.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach Hakeem. Afterall most evolutionists are biased against any idea of Creation, or God for that matter. And most books in support of Evolution are biased against God as well.

*cough* *cough* *[HIGHLIGHT]MOTHERFUCKING PARTISAN WITH A FUCKING AGENDA[/code]* *cough* *cough*

Does the bible say how God created humans? Does the bible specifically say that God absolutely did not do that with evolution? Does the bible specifically say that God made absolutely everything in 168 human hours? You're the one that runs around preaching how many scientific facts that "appear" in the bible. Don't force yourself into the position of "victim" by saying that science hates your principles.

The Existence of God.....And why he is not a chicken.

Or why it's more likely that He's a guy because He gave us sweetass anglerfish.

 

[PurplePoot]

Look at the size of the universe, (ephy) as previously stated, and it's not even improbable any more.

 

[Hakeem]

And I want to see a "Yes: I can prove it with logic" answer

So do I. (From someone else.)

(if it was provable, it would have been proven ages ago)

And encryption is cracked as soon as it comes out?

So we're evil because you don't like our opinion? Jeez, standard religious argument much?

I was in a hurry so I took the easy faster argument.

Yes there are. They're called nerves.

Those carry the signals to the brain. The brain realizes pain. What experiences it?

Not if you don't mind spending a lifetime in jail.

So souls are the only thing that make death bad?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that lots of what donut says (like the 1+1=7 thing) have been jokes. (True in a way, (of course you can create your own number system) but a joke in idea) I'm surprised no one else seemed to see this.

Seemed.

 

[donut3.5]

Actually if it still seems to him as if I was joking, which I believe it still does, then shouldn't it be seems, since he still does, thus making it present?
I hate grammar though.
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Those carry the signals to the brain. The brain realizes pain. What experiences it?

The brain. The fact of the matter is, the brain is what experiences it. We are all brains (w00t).

 

[donut3.5]

We are all a brain, a basket case, a criminal, a whatever, and i forgot most of that line from the breakfast club.
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

We are all a brain, a basket case, a criminal, a whatever, and i forgot most of that line from the breakfast club.
--donut3.5--

A case for a basket?

 

[PurplePoot]

Donut verified it, Hakeem.

As for the encryption thing, sorry, I worded that wrong, what I meant was that I doubt anyone in this thread is going to prove what many great thinkers cannot.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Donut verified it, Hakeem.

As for the encryption thing, sorry, I worded that wrong, what I meant was that I doubt anyone in this thread is going to prove what many great thinkers cannot.

Indeed. We are not philosophers. We can only try to be them. And perhaps we will be in the future. Nonetheless, debating always results in learning a thing or two, and there's always the miniscule chance that we do discover things.

 

[Redeemer59]

Elenai, to be perfectly honest, every post you make makes you look more and more like you have absolutely no evidence and are just saying "God exists." because you've been told he does.

Evolution is indeed plausible, through logic. When your enviornment changes, you need to change with it to survive, or die out. This happens over a very long time, millions of years, so by the time you're 100, Elenai, you wont be able to tell even the slightest gene-changes. That rules out the "We will see who is right in the end." argument you seem to like.

And, once more, debating is usually useless. In the end, people just raise their voices and breed hatred. I don't know why I post here, then... *shrugs and ignores his hypocrisy*

 

[Hakeem]

donut3.5 verified that he was joking, he didn't verify whether or not anyone else noticed.[/OFFTOPIC]

If, for the purpose of argument, we accept that the brain cannot hold the thing that experiences, then we can go very far. Then the debate turns into whether or not it can, and everyone ends up believing or not. But if you have the capacity to understand such things, then, in time, I'd expect anyone to realize that the brain is nothing more than a chemical reaction.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

And, once more, debating is usually useless. In the end, people just raise their voices and breed hatred. I don't know why I post here, then... *shrugs and ignores his hypocrisy*

Well, if there is no voice of authority, like on most of the internet debates (including this one), then yes, but they are still useful. Like bags of tea, they are not meant to be consumed (learned from) directly. They soak in, and some day, you just might change your mind on things as you reflect on the topic. No one likes to directly admit they're wrong about such topics. I started as an apathetic, then became a freethinker, then became an atheist, then became an agnostic, none of which happened right after a heated debate of the existence of god, but all of which taking in past experiences. Humans are publicly stubborn and privately open-minded.

 

[Redeemer59]

Well, if there is no voice of authority, like on most of the internet debates (including this one), then yes, but they are still useful. Like bags of tea, they are not meant to be consumed (learned from) directly. They soak in, and some day, you just might change your mind on things as you reflect on the topic. No one likes to directly admit they're wrong about such topics. I started as an apathetic, then became a freethinker, then became an atheist, then became an agnostic, none of which happened right after a heated debate of the existence of god, but all of which taking in past experiences. Humans are publicly stubborn and privately open-minded.

I have to prove you wrong and admit that you're right. Now I feel kind of stupid, actually...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I have to prove you wrong and admit that you're right. Now I feel kind of stupid, actually...

Awesome! Paradox!

 

[PurplePoot]

The responses seemed pretty serious, hakeem.

Wow, we're good at going off-topic.

 

[soulcollector]

I don't believe in any God, as long as there's no proof. And I have nothing against any religion, as long as they don't bother me.

 

[SimonKurciski]

Ok, wait. Do we have a comnon defenition for a god? Is a god a living thing that wields great power? If so, then is a man with a nuclear bomb a god? If not, then what is a god?

I believe in a God, and I also think that the thery of evolution is sound. I won't say "I believe in evolution" because evolution is not a matter of belief; it is a science, and requires proof.

The best scientific theory that exists regarding the bgeining of the universe is the Big Bang, which states that all the matter in the universe was containe dwithin a very small point, then the very small point of matter exploded and dispersed, ect, ect. But where did the condensed point of matter come from? Matter can't just appear. i conclude that some higher being, doesn't have to be a god, created the universe and it's laws and then just left it alone.

 

[PurplePoot]

To respond to 'where did the big bang come from' said by several people, consider this;

Where did god come from if you want to argue he caused the big bang?

 

[Elenai]

God is he who always was. He is that He is. He was always here, and to think God wasn't, or never existed....is like looking in the face of people who have experienced God's hand in their lives, and have known for an absolute fact, that it was God. And saying to them....You are a liar. God never helped you. It was all a placebo. Let me tell you this last thing gentlemen.

A placebo does not do the miracles that have occured in the lives of not one or three. Or even twelve. But thousands.

And subtance for thought...A prediction I will give to you.

A sad era humanity has thrown itself into...
And with the rate humanity is going...
Suffering will only get worse...

-Fore in the days of noah, the people were wicked and in all the land only Noah and his family were righteous. Commanded them to build an ark so that they would survive...And then the Lord brought the flood to destroy those who would not turn from their wicked ways.....

...Then years later Christ said that the end times would be as the days of Noah...But that instead of water...the world would perish in fire.-

Ironic that humanity, having turned from God. Are becoming more and more with each passing day. Like the neighbors of Noah.

My challenge to you is: Look at your world, follow it's story, look at it closely. And watch the level of suffering. And compare it to how humanity is living their days.

-Elenai the EPIC-

 

[GST_Nemisis]

My challenge to you is: Look at your world, follow it's story, look at it closely. And watch the level of suffering. And compare it to how humanity is living their days.

considering the availabilty of healthcare, homes, benifits and opportunties for people in western and many eastern nations compared to the lifestyle of people say, 200 years ago where there was much wider spread religion there is most definately less suffering. now dont go talking about third world nations because they have never had as much support (and lack of opression) from developed countries and their own governments as they have now, even though suffering is still bad there it will hopefully be relieved alot in the coming years. really the world is at its current high point for awareness, selflessness and motivation to help each other.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

To respond to 'where did the big bang come from' said by several people, consider this;

Where did god come from if you want to argue he caused the big bang?

The God of the three big monotheistic religions just is, always was, always will be, and requires no explanation. It's ironic that people demand empirical proof of something (the big bang, where did that come from), and use that demand to "prove" something that cannot be proven empirically (God).

God is he who always was. He is that He is. He was always here, and to think God wasn't, or never existed....is like looking in the face of people who have experienced God's hand in their lives, and have known for an absolute fact, that it was God. And saying to them....You are a liar. God never helped you. It was all a placebo. Let me tell you this last thing gentlemen.

A placebo does not do the miracles that have occured in the lives of not one or three. Or even twelve. But thousands.

The way you worded that, you seem to be saying that it is placebos and not God that cures thousands of people (even though I know you would disagree with that). Anyways, placebos can do all sorts of incredibly crazy stuff, from simple to lifesaving. Many of those placebos are caused by belief in God. Belief in God (that caused the placebo) cured you. Whether or not God exists, God cured you (don't believe in God → no strong belief that you will be cured → no cure). In that sense, God exists at least as a potent psychological force capable of creating incredible placebo effects (for all intents and purposes, a miracle). And yes, I know I did a poor job of explaining that.

And subtance for thought...A prediction I will give to you.

A sad era humanity has thrown itself into...
And with the rate humanity is going...
Suffering will only get worse...

-Fore in the days of noah, the people were wicked and in all the land only Noah and his family were righteous. Commanded them to build an ark so that they would survive...And then the Lord brought the flood to destroy those who would not turn from their wicked ways.....

...Then years later Christ said that the end times would be as the days of Noah...But that instead of water...the world would perish in fire.-

Ironic that humanity, having turned from God. Are becoming more and more with each passing day. Like the neighbors of Noah.

My challenge to you is: Look at your world, follow it's story, look at it closely. And watch the level of suffering. And compare it to how humanity is living their days.

-Elenai the EPIC-

Hmm? Isn't every single major dispute in the middle east religious? Wasn't the US attacked by extremists that strongly identify with a particular monotheistic religion? Aren't most (if not all) middle eastern suicide bombers doing it for "religion"? Isn't almost all science in the middle east is run by religion? Also, believe it or not, America (don't know about the rest of the world) is getting more religious. There are schools that teach intelligent design as "science," although intelligent design has absolutely no empirical proof, and as such isn't science.
It's just that worldwide, those who aren't religious are getting better and better at taking the spotlight.

 

[PurplePoot]

God is he who always was. He is that He is. He was always here, and to think God wasn't, or never existed....is like looking in the face of people who have experienced God's hand in their lives, and have known for an absolute fact, that it was God. And saying to them....You are a liar. God never helped you. It was all a placebo. Let me tell you this last thing gentlemen.

Because of course, you don't have to explain god, but we have to explain the big bang. Fair debate much?

A placebo does not do the miracles that have occured in the lives of not one or three. Or even twelve. But thousands.

And subtance for thought...A prediction I will give to you.

Name me one prayer granted; and don't say I prayed for xxx and it happened so it must be god! Things occasionally happen. Unless you can show that he consistently answers good prayers, noty. (Now you're going to say he has some higher plan and he choses not to, just wait...)

A sad era humanity has thrown itself into...
And with the rate humanity is going...
Suffering will only get worse...

All that suffering... the church must have had much more fun back then... it's suffering now from lack of people to burn at the stake?

-Fore in the days of noah, the people were wicked and in all the land only Noah and his family were righteous. Commanded them to build an ark so that they would survive...And then the Lord brought the flood to destroy those who would not turn from their wicked ways.....

No, the Bible says it did. Making what proof?

...Then years later Christ said that the end times would be as the days of Noah...But that instead of water...the world would perish in fire.-

I'll tell you if Hell is forecasted on The Weather Network.

Ironic that humanity, having turned from God. Are becoming more and more with each passing day. Like the neighbors of Noah.

Again? I thought it was the burning at the stake... Maybe it's the stoning. Yeah, that could be it.

My challenge to you is: Look at your world, follow it's story, look at it closely. And watch the level of suffering. And compare it to how humanity is living their days.

Better?

Ephy: Apparently there are schools in the US that teach religion when they should be teaching science, (bits of this I have heard from my cousin from Texas) and you have a strong advantage to get any high up position in things like the government if you're Christian.

 

[Elenai]

Many of my prayers have been answered.

-I prayed for peace in my life-God gave it to me
-I prayed about my mother's terminal lung cancer, and pneumonia-miraculously cured. If I ever have a shred of doupt about God. I look at my mother, who by all reason should not be here today. But she is.
-I prayed for help on numerous occasions-God put help out for me

Examples-I needed help on personal issues-had to get through some things I was going through. God gave me solace and he gave me guidence.

I needed help with anger, pain, and other emotional things-God gave me retraint and wisdom.

Small and large things in life and God answered them.

I've also prayed for many people. And God has helped them.

And on the issue of ID. Evolution is alot more defective than ID is. Evolution has so many subjective, scientific discrepencies, HIGH improbabilities, it breaks scientific natural laws like Thermodynamics, and Pasteur's law. The geological record is against it, the fossil record is against it, Genetic studies are against it. COMMON SENSE is against it.

If we did not evolve by natural processes, Which we didnt and evidence proves we did'nt. Then it's a third theory we've never heard of. Or we were created.

And this anti-Christian thought is based on the evil deeds of a few. If you think Christians are evil/promoters of evil you are dead wrong. We are out there on the mission field giving aid and help to the desperate and destitute while most of the secular world is counting beans on what to give and when.

And not only do we give physical help, we give the people hope and life.

May I also mention that the flood is supported not only by the bible, but by the fact that 3/4 of the worlds ancient cultures have a flood story. Fish fossils in mountain peaks, and ect.

And humanity isnt better. We have more stuff. And more technology to make our lives easier and physically healthy. But look at us. We are incredibly evil people. We are so knee deep in our own selfish and unhappy lives of greed, lying, and just all around disregard for even the sanctity of life. Not to mention that our generation is falling into this "If it feels good do it" "No consequences" idealism.

Our physical lives may be better. But we sure as hells existence are not better people.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Ephy: Apparently there are schools in the US that teach religion when they should be teaching science, (bits of this I have heard from my cousin from Texas) and you have a strong advantage to get any high up position in things like the government if you're Christian.

In some states, it's still illegal to do certain things on a sunday, or for atheists to take office. The Boy Scouts, a company funded by the US government and given public land, etc., don't allow homosexuals and atheists to take part.

-I prayed about my mother's terminal lung cancer, and pneumonia-miraculously cured. If I ever have a shred of doupt about God. I look at my mother, who by all reason should not be here today. But she is.

I think I can trust that you don't lie about such things, but was there ever a deserving amputee in your life? Why don't their arms just grow back?

 

[PurplePoot]

-I prayed for peace in my life-God gave it to me

Did that change anything? (like... was there some horrible turmoil going on beforehand?)

-I prayed about my mother's terminal lung cancer, and pneumonia-miraculously cured. If I ever have a shred of doupt about God. I look at my mother, who by all reason should not be here today. But she is.

What about all the other people? Are they just nonbelievers?

-I prayed for help on numerous occasions-God put help out for me

Mmm.

Examples-I needed help on personal issues-had to get through some things I was going through. God gave me solace and he gave me guidence.

I needed help with anger, pain, and other emotional things-God gave me retraint and wisdom.

Small and large things in life and God answered them.

I've also prayed for many people. And God has helped them.

Or maybe you've just learned restraint yourself and claim god 'influenced' you or something?

And on the issue of ID. Evolution is alot more defective than ID is. Evolution has so many subjective, scientific discrepencies, HIGH improbabilities, it breaks scientific natural laws like Thermodynamics, and Pasteur's law. The geological record is against it, the fossil record is against it, Genetic studies are against it. COMMON SENSE is against it.

Last time I checked many of those are with it.

If we did not evolve by natural processes, Which we didnt and evidence proves we did'nt. Then it's a third theory we've never heard of. Or we were created.

What evidence? I'm sorry, but if evidence was obviously wrong people all over the world wouldn't be following it. (Oh wait, sorry, I take that back. I forgot about fundamentalism)

And this anti-Christian thought is based on the evil deeds of a few. If you think Christians are evil/promoters of evil you are dead wrong. We are out there on the mission field giving aid and help to the desperate and destitute while most of the secular world is counting beans on what to give and when.

And not only do we give physical help, we give the people hope and life.

And no non-Christians do? Also, good and evil are religious concepts, right? Also, last time I checked, the same book you get your good morals from also advocates stoning people not of your faith/homosexuals/people who work on Sunday, and many more. If you use a document, you can't just pick and choose...

May I also mention that the flood is supported not only by the bible, but by the fact that 3/4 of the worlds ancient cultures have a flood story. Fish fossils in mountain peaks, and ect.

May I remind you that large parts of the civilization we live in now was then centered around Europe, and the (Black sea? Can't remember which sea it was) filled around that time, drowning villages that can still be found today.

And humanity isnt better. We have more stuff. And more technology to make our lives easier and physically healthy. But look at us. We are incredibly evil people. We are so knee deep in our own selfish and unhappy lives of greed, lying, and just all around disregard for even the sanctity of life. Not to mention that our generation is falling into this "If it feels good do it" "No consequences" idealism.

Our physical lives may be better. But we sure as hells existence are not better people.

And your reasoning for this is? The fact that we don't burn heretics at the stake any more? Seriously, what was oh-so-good about life before that has declined horribly now?

---

Guess what? I've had close calls with people in my life, too. And they've made it through. I also have self control, and a peaceful life.

Guess what else? I'm atheist. I don't pray.

Whoops, there goes that theory... please...

---

Please, try to use arguments outside of your faith to support your faith, otherwise it's circular logic.

 

[donut3.5]

Elenai, I'd like to know where you're getting your biological facts from. Link me to some websites, and trust me, I'll know they're Christian fundies out to rule the world
--donut3.5--

 

[The Curse]

The only real way people would convert to Christianity nowadays is if God strikes them with lightning right after they detest his existence or if a statue weeps bloody tears in front of a large crowd. Even then, phony accusations are inevitable.

Some of the things the Church teaches are very controversial though, you have to admit that. Makes you wonder at times, how accurate is the Bible in accordance to God's true words, or did people twist and bend it here and there over the centuries to justify themselves and whatnot.

 

[Redeemer59]

The only way people would believe God nowadays is if he strikes them with lightning right after they detest his existence or if a statue weeps bloody tears in front of a large crowd. Even then, phony accusations are inevitable.

Some of the things the Church teaches are very controversial though, you have to admit that. Makes you wonder at times, how accurate is the Bible in accordance to God's true words, or did people twist and bend it here and there over the centuries to justify themselves and whatnot.

I think that's pretty much true. It had a good intention, but nowadays people write versions filled with stuff that promotes hatred, rather than love, which is what Jesus was talking about in life. I think interpretation is playing too much of a part, nowadays.

 

[Hakeem]

I guess I'll edit my first post.

This is not about Christianity, the bible, or evolution. It is solely about god's existence.


If you want to argue those things then start a "Biblical Accuracy" thread.
And Elenai, if you want to argue against evolution then get your facts straight.
And don't even try to say that I don't know the truth about evolution.

---

---------------

---

---------------

---

It seems to me that the only logic that anyone is using to say that god is illogical is that he lets evil happen.
What defines good and evil besides god?

 

[PurplePoot]

Even if there was a higher power, I frankly wouldn't care, but I personally believe there is far less of a chance for a higher power to begin in existence rather than matter because the higher power would be formed in a complex fashion, with sorts of improbable stuff, rather than just a big ball of mass.

Also, beyond that, there's a lot more straight evidence behind the big bang (they can create mini-big bangs in labs) and such than there is behind god.

Also also, if there was a higher power who wished to be acknowledged, he'd have presented himself, yes?

If they didn't want to be known about or didn't care, I don't think it really makes too much of a difference

 

[Hakeem]

Even if there was a higher power, I frankly wouldn't care, but I personally believe there is far less of a chance for a higher power to begin in existence rather than matter because the higher power would be formed in a complex fashion, with sorts of improbable stuff, rather than just a big ball of mass.

We got here by a complex process . But that's irrelevant, nobody seems to understand why anything exists.

Also also, if there was a higher power who wished to be acknowledged, he'd have presented himself, yes?

Who said god wants everyone to know about him?

If they didn't want to be known about or didn't care, I don't think it really makes too much of a difference

I mean the above question to be as literal as can be.

 

[PurplePoot]

With the second half, I was saying that if the power didn't really care, then it doesn't make much of a difference to us, and if it did care then we would almost definitely know.

And as for the complex process, adding another just makes it that much more unlikely ><

 

[Hakeem]

We are not unlikely to exist. It's fully likely.

But maybe god doesn't want everyone to know about him. He wants some to believe and some to not.

 

[PurplePoot]

Blarg, imagine if Planet Earth were the only planet in the universe. It would be millions/billions/trillions/...ians more unlikely for god to exist.

And if he wants only certain people to believe in him, I think he's weird

 

[donut3.5]

He doesn't want people to believe in him, then he punishes those who don't by condemning them.
Riiiight.
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

He doesn't want people to believe in him, then he punishes those who don't by condemning them.
Riiiight.
--donut3.5--

We speak not of the Christian god at the moment, but god as a generic entity.

 

[donut3.5]

Oh ok. I haven't been reading this as much as I should been, and when I do I speed read.
--donut3.5--

 

[Hakeem]

Without god or an afterlife, nothing defines good or evil.
Take murder for example, why is it wrong?
Everyone dies anyway, why is dying sooner any different from dying later?
Because loved ones care? Why do their feelings matter? They'll die anyway, too.
To say god is all good is fallacy; he created good in the first place.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Without god or an afterlife, nothing defines good or evil.
Take murder for example, why is it wrong?
Everyone dies anyway, why is dying sooner any different from dying later?
Because loved ones care? Why do their feelings matter? They'll die anyway, too.
To say god is all good is fallacy; he created good in the first place.

Morality is nothing but a constantly changing point of view stemming from empathy coupled with materialism (and other elements, perhaps). What was "good" in 500 B.C is not "good" now.

 

[PurplePoot]

Hakeem, sure, nothing defines good and evil. Why do we need Good and Evil? Morality does just swell. And whether you like to rot in jail