Existence of God

[Elenai]

Hmmmz...Here is one reason.

It's similar to the incident in the story of Job. Satan afflicted Job with evil, God allowed it. Job standing fast in his faith, and not falling to sin. Grew in his faith and God blessed him for not letting the evil break his faith.

God likes to take evil things that happen to us, and turn them into good things.

Like taking lemons and making lemonaid....or lemon pudding.

 

[donut3.5]

No, science can't disprove anything, it can't say pigs don't fly because they might have just not discovered it yet.

Once again, I see that someone fails to understand that all religions are different. I know some religions that don't contradict science, in fact, they support it.

True, someone can never prove anything. This is the same with logically proving God. You can only say that God has not been dis proven.

And I was making a generalization, it's a lot easier to say Science argues against religion than Science argues against some religions but agrees with others, while it is somewhere in between but to one side or the other, or maybe directly in the middle depending on the extremity of the believer in said religion.
--donut3.5--

 

[Moontraveler]

I am rather wierd about this subject but I believe that gods exist and don't exist at the same time ... Ya I don't understand myself either...

 

[Hakeem]

Logic can prove souls and god. That is, of course, only possible, if you accept logical proof.

So Elenai, god lets evil happen so he can forgive it?

 

[Elenai]

I suppose thats one way to look at it.

But I'll be back tomorrow to discuss more of this.

 

[Hakeem]

Elenai, study other religions. You can find a better one.
You are just a * waiting to happen.

 

[donut3.5]

Personally I think Buddhism is cool. Although most religions have parts in them I like.
--donut3.5--

 

[Turtles]

Ive been told that God created evil and let Satan go so that people could choose good or evil. personally, I think that's bullcrap. people claim God can't control free will. Then he is not omnipotent. He is not Almighty. He created us, wtf can't he control us for?

 

[Hakeem]

Personally, I think that sounds pretty stupid too. Doesn't mean I throw out the baby with the bath water.

God can make sense, you don't have to dismiss religion because some nut case says god is half duck.

 

[Kjiverx]

I am, in fact Christian. Cathoilc, but i have some very good friends who are protestant. catholics aren't all assholes.

Evolution isn't in Christanity that's the problem. Read the bible and then you can see that it is all lies.

some christians, like me, are ashamed of the ranting anti-evolutionists. christians aren't all christian supremacists who think the earth was created six thousand years ago. i personally, as a christian, see no problem with evolution.

perhaps you should study the Christian Doctrine with an open mind, and its effects on those who follow it (True Christians not those false nut-cases)...before you turn it away as something to be despised.

there are some "christians" who are basically Klu Klux Klan against non christians. those christians are the nutcases.

If the Christian god is, in fact, proven to be real, I would not respect him. A god that promotes slavery of those of neighboring countries and will only reward those who flatter him is not worthy of my respect, no matter how menial mine may be, and no matter how great he may be.

ever read a word of the bible? it's basically god constantly punishing the Israelites for not worshipping him. the isrealite god promotes slavery of his own country, too, until they repent. for a while. until they screw up again. Jewish god is usually in a state of constnt pissedness at the jews.

the Bible would define any law made, and the preachers would fill in everything else. It would be something of a constitutional dictatorship.

the bible is actually very empty of facts.

I don't dispise Chritianity. I despise the fact lies have been told, the way the Pope rejects many things of the modern world, such as homosexuals or condoms (which is ridiculous considering it could save Africa, no I'm not kidding).

Something that will again stop people from killing each other.

anti contraception had its time. very few of those africans are christians, anyway-the Pope has no authority over them.

Science logically disproves God, but we can't factually.
Science has argued against religion for a veeeery long time.
Here are a few examples:
--donut3.5--

if probability is science, the seesaw is turning back towards god.

God can't control Satan? So God is not all powerful?

what's the point of playing chess with yourself?

Of course God can control Satan. But he doesnt because Satan still has free will.

exactly.

Hmmmz...Here is one reason.

It's similar to the incident in the story of Job. Satan afflicted Job with evil, God allowed it. Job standing fast in his faith, and not falling to sin. Grew in his faith and God blessed him for not letting the evil break his faith.

God likes to take evil things that happen to us, and turn them into good things.

Like taking lemons and making lemonaid....or lemon pudding.

or taking lemons and making a von neumann machine. that has multiple personaity disorder and paranoia.

Ive been told that God created evil and let Satan go so that people could choose good or evil. personally, I think that's bullcrap. people claim God can't control free will. Then he is not omnipotent. He is not Almighty. He created us, wtf can't he control us for?

God can control us, but playing pool with planets must've gotten boring after a while. he doesn't control us cause it's a challenge that way.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

If you people say that god is all powerful, then I shall present to you a paradox.
"Can God create a rock so large that he himself cannot lift it?"
Or, if you prefer the Simpsons version,
"Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?"

 

[Hakeem]

Yes. Then afterwards, he can make himself able again. Paradox terminated.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Yes. Then afterwards, he can make himself able again.

It would be a loop. If you answer as such, I could just as easily say "Can God create a rock that he himself cannot lift and cannot be made to lift under any circumstances whatsoever?" And you, of course, will reformulate your question to fit this answer, creating a neverending loop. It will not, however, change anything, as at the moment that he creates a rock he cannot lift, it will show his abilities are hindered. Changing his abilities will still mean the current abilities were hindered.

 

[Ihaterednecks]

There you said it, Eva and Adam didn't exicts, you denying Christaninty ?

Evolution isn't in Christanity that's the problem. Read the bible and then you can see that it is all lies.

For all your high-nosed preaching, I'd say you've never thought of the tale of Adam and Eve as a metaphor?

 

[Hakeem]

He hinders abilities. He makes big rock. He becomes unhindered. But then, why would he to do such a thing?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

He hinders abilities. He makes big rock. He becomes unhindered. But then, why would he to do such a thing?

If his abilities are hindered, then he would no longer be omnipotent, which would make him a god who is omnipotent "except for big rocks", no?

It is not about why he would do such a thing, it is about why he is able to do such a thing.

 

[Hakeem]

If his abilities are hindered, then he would no longer be omnipotent, which would make him a god who is omnipotent "except for big rocks", no?

Yes, I don't see why he can't hinder himself. He is, after all, all powerful.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Yes, I don't see why he can't hinder himself. He is, after all, all powerful.

He doesn't hinder himself. He creates a rock that he himself cannot lift in his normal unhindered form. Then he changes his abilities to be able to carry that rock. That would mean he wasn't omnipotent to begin with, and instead had to change his abilities to be able to carry the rock.

 

[Hakeem]

He has to hinder himself in order to make the rock, and also, he probably needs to make a body as well.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

He has to hinder himself in order to make the rock, and also, he probably needs to make a body as well.

If he cannot create the rock without hindering himself, he would not be omnipotent.

 

[donut3.5]

Well see, God is so omnipotent he hax logic.
--donut3.5--

 

[Hakeem]

Whatever. Can he make 1+1=7? Sure. I don't know how, but he can.
Maybe he created the logic you like to use to make things impossible.

EDIT: Dang you beat me to it, donut3.5.

 

[donut3.5]

Math doesn't exist. Anyone can make 1+1=7. It would be like making a new language to a certain extent.
--donut3.5--

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Whatever. Can he make 1+1=7? Sure. I don't know how, but he can.
Maybe he created the logic you like to use to make things impossible.

The omnipotence theory is a complete paradox. If you want to consider logic and everything else not solid, I could just as easily say that I am god, and I don't need proof for it because I created everything, and could change to to however it fits me. Now bow before me, menial mortal scum.

Math doesn't exist. Anyone can make 1+1=7. It would be like making a new language to a certain extent.
--donut3.5--

As far as assuming logic is solid is concerned, Math exists, it's just our interpretation of it that isn't.

 

[Hakeem]

Logic works in this universe anyway. Since you're in this universe with me, you're not god.
Outside this universe, logic might dictate that 1+1=#$$T$%^E$%^%&*%H%Y^&%.

 

[Turtles]

If he cannot create the rock without hindering himself, he would not be omnipotent.

well, actually, he would not be hindered, because all along he had the ability to change himself to be able to lift the rock.

 

[Shados]

It doesn't matter if he had the ability to change himself to be able to lift it, because he did not have the ability to lift it without that change, and so he was then not omnipotent.

In any case, omnipotence is not the main problem; omniscience is. If god is all-knowing, why did he create the world as it is, knowing we would sin, knowing Lucifer would rebel?

And Hakeem, give your 'logical proof that god exists'. And if you're talking about Descartes' arguements, don't bother.

-*meow*

 

[Hakeem]

In any case, omnipotence is not the main problem; omniscience is. If god is all-knowing, why did he create the world as it is, knowing we would sin, knowing Lucifer would rebel?

Because he likes to forgive, among other things. Also, quoting you is awesome.

 

[SuPa-]

Hakeem, have you yet given a logical answer to how god exists?

Logic can prove souls and god. That is, of course, only possible, if you accept logical proof.

So Elenai, god lets evil happen so he can forgive it?

Please, elaborate!

And don't say "Lot's Wife"

The pillar of salt is located right beside the dead sea. What's in the dead sea? Lots and lots of salt! wowzerz

 

[Elenai]

On the issue of the rock thing.

To create a rock larger than God, would go against God's nature. He will not go against his nature.

And the logical answer is in the evidence. There are too many things, and experiences that people have, that support God's existence I myself have experienced how God can effect peoples lives. . Not to mention archeological evidence that supports the Bible.

Such as the wailing wall=part of the temple.
The history of the Hebrews, detailed in the Old Testament, cited as a scource of their history, supported by evidence, Such as the city itself, and accounts of eras in Jewish history. Like the Exile in Babylon, The Romans, and the Kings. Plus many other things.

God's existence is provable. By looking at the very history of his people.

 

[donut3.5]

Well, as stated in previous threads, nothing can be proven, only assumed to be true until disproven.
And you can't say that only applies to mine and not yours.
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

That is true donut. True indeed.

But you must also look at the otherside of the coin.

"If a statement P implies a statement Q, and a statement R also implies Q, and either P or R is true, then the Q has to be true."

Or perhaps the famous quote.

"Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

 

[HeretoDLstuff]

On the rock topic: If god could do anything, he could make himself weak so he couldnt lift the rock. Size would matter. If your going by the theory that god can do anything he could make himself not be able to or be able too, no matter what the size of the rock is, or how much it Weighs...

EDIT:

And even if he exists, then he sucks at being God. People are screwing themselves everywhere, and no reaction. That't a pretty long day off if you ask me.

According to the bible and such, everyone on earth deserves to die. The ones that are dieing are the ones that he isnt kindly saveing. WHy does he chose those to die? Maybe the have unspoken sins, or maybe he chooses then randomly and uses then as a exaple to other of what will happen to them...Some people might ask why bother obey him if there all doomed to die, but just becaus they deserve to die doesnt mean they will. Have you heard the saying "You most die byside him on the cross to be saved." ? Well I dont know for sure what that means but I take it to mean even if obeying him causes you to suffer greatly or/and die, you will be revived like him..

Also, I'm not gonna visit this thread again, nor will you EVER be able to convince me this illusionary "God" exists. So don't bother arguing with me.

I would never try to make anyone believe in god. What my opinion and youres is if out own right; nobody should try and change it. Nor should we try change others.


Im my opinion this thread is doomed to be closed in the end, no matter how hard you try to keep it from that.

 

[Elenai]

Weighs Bob....weighs. EDIT: bob fixed it.

God can do anything within his nature...God will not, however, go against his nature to make a rock that is bigger/what-ever than him.

This has an indepth answer to that question.
http://www.carm.org/atheism/God_rock.htm

And do not fear. This site is quite reliable. Nor is it an extremist site.



[Off topic] 777 posts! Thats God's number.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

i dont see why none of you are support the gods of old egypt. they have been around longer and there is crap loads of evidence to support them. just look at the wall paintings as temples that still exist today. much more than christianity anyways.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I would never try to make anyone beleave in god. What my opinion and youres is if out own right; nobody should try and change it. Nor should we try change others.

I wasn't directing it at any one.

 

[HeretoDLstuff]

I wasn't directing it at any one.

I know, but I though you might have taken some of my post to be trying to get you to believe.

 

[Elenai]

GST: The gods of Egypt never gave me salvation, nor have they ever answerd my prayers as God has.

But even so, the archeological evidence is only half the equation. Peoples personal experiences of God's power is the other half.

And even so. The God of the Christians and the Jews has been around since......forever.

 

[Fulla]

Relgion is/was just created to control people.
Its perhaps a bit different nowadays.

 

[Kjiverx]

And don't say "Lot's Wife"

The pillar of salt is located right beside the dead sea. What's in the dead sea? Lots and lots of salt! wowzerz

that story is kinda suspicious to me. lot wasn't righteous anyway. offering to let people rape your daughters to save two people you met five minutes ago is kinda a sin.

the whole rock thing---God made the universe. or however many there are. he is omnipotent. he controls the universe, or could, trees don't need god to grow, that's automatic. god could make a universe where pi=the square root of a muffin, if he wanted to. consider please the meaning of omnipotent. the latin is "to be able" plus "all". god can do anything except for get more powerful.

or, so that you can understand it,
ANYTHING

 

[HeretoDLstuff]

god can do anything except for get more powerful.

Hes allready as powerful as he can get, you yeah...

 

[SuPa-]

Any written scriptures from far-off history are not any sort of proof in the least. People from long ago were pretty superstitious if you ask me. It's very easy to make up something completely ridiculous and then make it so ignorant people believe it. I've done it more times than I can count when I was little. There is no real proof that god exists if you ask me. Therefore there is no reason to believe he exists.

 

[HeretoDLstuff]

For all you know some people have felt or experienced something you havent. But we cant realy know whats going on in there heads, and whats happining to them. Maybe to them, he does exist and we just cant hear him.

 

[Elenai]

SuPa: You must'nt forget though. That the bible also contains versus describing the workings of the planet, not quite known. (the world being round was known, but these are different examples)

"Were other cosmologies found in religions have the world on the back of turtles, or the earth being the result of a fight between gods, biblical revelation is quite consistent with science. This is not to say that the Bible is vindicated by science; rather, it is science that is vindicated by the Bible. Consider the following: (note: all quotes are from the NIV)

The Spherical Shape of the Earth - "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22).
The Hebrew language did not have a word for "sphere." Circle is quite sufficient.

The Earth is suspended in nothing - "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7).

The Stars are Innumerable - "He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Genesis 15:5).

The Existence of Valleys in the Seas - "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:16).

The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas - "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.

The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas - "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8).

The Hydrologic Cycle - "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8).
- "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28)
- "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7).

The Concept of Entropy - "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:25-26)."

This also makes the point that just because we believe in a God does not mean that we (most Christians) are utterly against science.

 

[Turtles]

GST: The gods of Egypt never gave me salvation, nor have they ever answerd my prayers as God has.-

oh? have you ever prayed to them? have you ever worshipped them like ancient Eqyptians did? Have you ever actually believed in them as you do in God?
I could turn that argument around. God's never answered any of my prayers, and yes, I have prayed. He's never given me salvation. does that mean he's non-existant, in your mind?

 

[donut3.5]

That is true donut. True indeed.

But you must also look at the otherside of the coin.

"If a statement P implies a statement Q, and a statement R also implies Q, and either P or R is true, then the Q has to be true."

Or perhaps the famous quote.

"Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

In most cases, there are infinite factors, or close to it. The best you can do is pick a side and believe in it, which is what this whole debate is about.
--donut3.5--

 

[SuPa-]

Yay for the transitive property?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Elenai, you've shown those to us before. I'll admit that while some of those are pretty crazy (in a good, prophetic way), a large number of them are just too vague.

The earth being a circle fits with both archaic and contemporary views. Because it could describe either a the previous incorrect idea or the current correct one, that "evidence" isn't as valid as you would like.

About the earth being suspended in nothing, an old European view was that the earth was a flat disc suspended on pillars in the middle of nothing. Again, that quote fits both archaic and contemporary views, evidence invalidated.

Have you ever been in the middle of nowhere (far from large cities) and tried counting stars? It's fucking hard. Not to mention, it's not that hard to see that there are a bajillion of them out there. Yet again, it applies to common archaic knowledge as much as it does common contemporary knowledge... it is invalidated as evidence.

I haven't the slightest idea what "Springs and Fountains of the Sea" could be, and I'm really too lazy to look it up again. I'm throwing that one out too, just because it's too vague to be applied to common knowledge. Explain to me exactly what scientific phenomenon/a it is referring to, and I may allow it back in.

The ocean currents one is just you spinning it to fit the conclusion you want. "Water Path" could mean anything from ocean current to the migration patterns of a specific species of trout. Or perhaps the routes of you know... fish? People knew about them back them, they traveled paths that happened to be through the sea. Does that mean all fish in the sea travel through ocean currents? No. It's too vague, evidence invalidated.

The entropy thing is just that things (except for God, who seems to be who the person quoted is talking to) change, which is very true.

So that leaves you with the thing about the water cycle, which I'll admit is pretty good. Except it's not as much as you think you have.

---

About the poll, the first and third responses are fucking retarded, and whoever voted for the first option is just a little too confident. It's been stated in this thread that if God exists, s/he/they do/es on a plane of existence and perception that humans are not privy to. It's impossible to prove something with evidence that you cannot perceive, because you can't perceive it. You might as well be making stuff up, which many people believe the bible does.

 

[Elenai]

That is also true Donut.

Teh_Ephy: Alot of those are not vague at all. They are quite plain and simple. And being supported by pillars....is suspended by pillars. Not by nothing. And you are leaving out one very important verse. The one with the valleys of the sea. And springs and fountains of the sea....are just that springs and fountains. Just because it isnt described in mathmatical formulae and super enhanced resolution HD camera detail with the scientific names of the specific phenomenon does not mean its vague and archaic.

Evidence remains valid.

And turtles: Have you ever actually looked at how God does things in your life? Have you ever actually prayed for salvation?

Even still I studied the ancient Egyptians for a long time. Including their religion. And I have found that their gods were only blocks of carved stone and gold....and other materials. I have never prayed to them. But they never offered permanent salvation either. And also turtles. How do you know God hasnt answered your prayers. He could have answered quite a few and you just did'nt see it. Afterall gratitude is the shortest lived human emotion. Miracles dont have to come down in a dramatic bolt of light and angelic singing. Many miracles I've experienced have been quiet and yet profoundly life changing.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

And turtles: Have you ever actually looked at how God does things in your life?

He hasn't done anything so far to me, and neither turtles it seems.

And I have found that their gods were only blocks of carved stone and gold....and other materials. I have never prayed to them. But they never offered permanent salvation either. And also turtles. How do you know God hasnt answered your prayers. He could have answered quite a few and you just did'nt see it.

This is another thing I hate about religion, sometimes things done by man, or done by natural processes, are actually thought to be caused by this "god", and so people thank him, say that "god" was the one responsible.

And the comparison between Egyptian religion and Christinaity you offer is very unconvinving.