Existence of God

[PurplePoot]

Give me statistics that show miracles and/or God does not exist. And I might believe you.

Disproval is not a valid argument. Go try suing someone in court and when they ask you to prove your claim, ask them to disprove it. It'll never hold up, for good reason.

I've already given you statistics enough (not literal numbers, but we know very well the approximates); the percent of people (mostly religious!) who die of Cancer, even though they and their friends and relatives almost definitely prayed their tongue off to god to cure it.

And statistics on daily miracles would be impossible to calculate and find. Because many are so subtle that they brush it off as a "Coincidence".

You'd think there's a good reason that they brush off as coincidence, yes? And what is a daily miracle, anyways?

Is it circular logic to say, "God does not exist because of the hypothosis that God is non-existent"?

No, it isn't. It's just bad logic, if you can even call it that. But who said that?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

You'd think there's a good reason that they brush off as coincidence, yes? And what is a daily miracle, anyways?

Fake. Miracles are supposed to be things that absolutely could not happen without divine intervention, like when that one nun prayed to the last pope and her... shaky disease was cured. It was on the news.

 

[Modo]

I honestly believe God exists, (I am a Christian/Seventh Day Adventist... they sound like a cult) but it would be to argue 'Ad Humantanrinum' (I hope that is spelt correctly) to prove him to you. Basically, evolution/creation is the scientific argument of 'Intelligent Design' (Scientific version of God). Evolution takes far too long to occur, there is a severe lack of evidence for it and adaption does not mean 'the mutations that lead to new species'.

Descartes (I think) said that all men argue with the concept of God. Those who do not believe in God first had to prove to themselves that God doesn't exist.

"If God is real, why doesn't he always help us." is the cliche argument of those against God. Have you ever noticed that those who belive in God do not ask "why do bad things happen" they just accept them. This is another self fulfilling prophecy of those against God.

Why not follow religion, not as an extremist (I have met Christian Extremists and they are not pleasant people) but by the basics, at least? Be good to your fellow man, Love thy neighbour. If everyone took this message we would all be alot happier.

In closing, If I am wrong, and God doesn't exist, who cares. If you are wrong, and God does exist... that will suck won't it (unless you led a good life, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).

 

[Elenai]

Wow...modo said alot of things that I wanted to say.....To continue on a little bit of his idea.

But who said that?

Atheists do, at least in their inner minds. "God does not exist, for there is no proof that he does." Am I correct?

And no disproval is not a valid argument. But for someone to be so very sure that God does not exist....

He must have somekind of evidence to make him believe that. Or else the idea that he is not apart of any religion is then made false. Because if he has no evidence then he is relying on faith that he is right.

 

[PurplePoot]

Evolution takes far too long to occur, there is a severe lack of evidence for it and adaption does not mean 'the mutations that lead to new species'.

Wait, you're comparing this to Creationism? Evolution has a lack of evidence compared to Creationism? Sorry, but I can't agree with you here.

Also, don't forget, 6 billion years is a long time.

Descartes (I think) said that all men argue with the concept of God. Those who do not believe in God first had to prove to themselves that God doesn't exist.

Descartes was religious. An atheist would say that all men argue with the concept of god, and those who believe in god first have to prove to themselves that god exists.

Also, the "disprove" argument is old and it's not a generally accepted one either. (For anything, not just god)

"If God is real, why doesn't he always help us." is the cliche argument of those against God. Have you ever noticed that those who belive in God do not ask "why do bad things happen" they just accept them. This is another self fulfilling prophecy of those against God.

So you're saying that without a higher being, there can only be indifferent things, not good or bad things, that happen? Please provide logic.

Why not follow religion, not as an extremist (I have met Christian Extremists and they are not pleasant people) but by the basics, at least? Be good to your fellow man, Love thy neighbour. If everyone took this message we would all be alot happier.

I can be nice to people without being religious, and I find it fairly insulting for you to say you have to be religious to do so. In fact, religion has a pretty bad track record, with a good share of "Burn thy neighbor at the stake" incidents, and so forth -.-

In closing, If I am wrong, and God doesn't exist, who cares. If you are wrong, and God does exist... that will suck won't it (unless you led a good life, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).

Yeah, as far as I know we're forgiven for our sins if we admit them upon death. (According to Christianity, anyhow)

Oh, also, I think that we atheists would probably be better off than religious people if there was a god and it wasn't theirs ><.

---

EDIT: Response to Elenai

Atheists do, at least in their inner minds. "God does not exist, for there is no proof that he does." Am I correct?

No, they don't. (Or I don't anyways) Please don't put words in our mouths.

And no disproval is not a valid argument. But for someone to be so very sure that God does not exist....

So wait, you're saying that it's an invalid argument and yet a valid argument?

He must have somekind of evidence to make him believe that. Or else the idea that he is not apart of any religion is then made false. Because if he has no evidence then he is relying on faith that he is right.

I could say that you must have evidence to be religious.

And faith != religion anyways.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Evolution takes far too long to occur, there is a severe lack of evidence for it and adaption does not mean 'the mutations that lead to new species'.

No, no, touché, in that order. About the second no, there's plenty of evidence, it's just that it's not completely concrete, and as such potentially just seeing what you were looking for.

Descartes (I think) said that all men argue with the concept of God. Those who do not believe in God first had to prove to themselves that God doesn't exist.

Either that, or they can't prove to themselves that God does exist. It works both ways, you know. Unfortunately, both are futile. I DEMAND THAT THIS ENTIRE THREAD PAY ATTENTION TO ME WHEN I SAY THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE IN EITHER DIRECTION.

"If God is real, why doesn't he always help us." is the cliche argument of those against God. Have you ever noticed that those who belive in God do not ask "why do bad things happen" they just accept them. This is another self fulfilling prophecy of those against God.

The current argument is that there is no empirical proof that God exists. Real believers know that God helps you help yourself.

Why not follow religion, not as an extremist (I have met Christian Extremists and they are not pleasant people) but by the basics, at least? Be good to your fellow man, Love thy neighbour. If everyone took this message we would all be alot happier.

That's actually just having good moral behaviour.

In closing, If I am wrong, and God doesn't exist, who cares. If you are wrong, and God does exist... that will suck won't it (unless you led a good life, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).

Yeah, that's definitely the way to live if you're not sure.

Wow...modo said alot of things that I wanted to say.....To continue on a little bit of his idea.

Atheists do, at least in their inner minds. "God does not exist, for there is no proof that he does." Am I correct?

That's actually vastly different than "God doesn't exist because of the hypothesis that God doesn't exist." Also, there isn't proof. There's plenty of random, subjective, unverifiable evidence. Except most people need empirical evidence.

And no disproval is not a valid argument. But for someone to be so very sure that God does not exist....

Again, impossible to disprove something, you have to prove its opposite.

He must have somekind of evidence to make him believe that. Or else the idea that he is not apart of any religion is then made false. Because if he has no evidence then he is relying on faith that he is right.

It's possible to not believe in God's existence because you do wonder how S/He can exist with such flimsy evidence (flimsy as in open to frequent attack as flawed, subjective, or not evidence at all).

P.S: Next time I say "empirical proof," please assume that I mean "empirical evidence." Proof would be conclusive, evidence is just suggestive.

 

[Elenai]

Purplepoot: Oh yah and atheists have a spotless record of peace and love. And just because a few corrupt individuals were able to incite people into commiting non-biblical acts in the name of God, does not mean that religion is bad. Only it supports even further that people are bad.

And no. Just because you are an atheist does not mean that if our god is not the right one that you will get into that god's heaven. Infact you may not get in because you believe in no god, where as Christians and other religions at least acknowlege one.

And according to Christianity, you have to accept Christ as your savior before entry into heaven, Before your death. Not upon your death/after your death. (you can accept Christ on your death bed or before, but once you die, you face your judgment or reward for eternity.)

Teh-Ephy: Alot of empirical evidence is given in archealogical studies, and other things. But atheistic scientific bodies wont accept it. Because if it involves God, it is usually stamped as un-credible. And there is no evidence for evolution...most evidence seems to be against evolution. But that is for the Evolution thread.

EDIT: response to Purplepoot: I never said it was valid. But I do think that if you are so very eager to ask me to prove that God (A higher being so incomprehensible to the human mind) exists, then you should oblige to prove he does'nt.

And no I did not put words in your mouth. But if that is not what you think, then what is your reasoning for God's non-existence?

 

[PurplePoot]

Purplepoot: Oh yah and atheists have a spotless record of peace and love. And just because a few corrupt individuals were able to incite people into commiting non-biblical acts in the name of God, does not mean that religion is bad. Only it supports even further that people are bad.

Did I say they do? However, don't forget that until about a hundred years ago there were barely any atheists, and even now there are still many more religious people. Even by %, the religions are almost definitely higher.

And are you calling your church corrupt? /nods

And no. Just because you are an atheist does not mean that if our god is not the right one that you will get into that god's heaven. Infact you may not get in because you believe in no god, where as Christians and other religions at least acknowlege one.

I think Joe, God of Pots and Pans would be more likely to let in an atheist who does not believe in a god rather than someone whose sacred document orders that the follows of Joe be stoned to death for heresy.

Not that it makes too much of a difference to me, since I don't believe in the afterlife -.-

And according to Christianity, you have to accept Christ as your savior before entry into heaven, Before your death. Not upon your death/after your death. (you can accept Christ on your death bed or before, but once you die, you face your judgment or reward for eternity.)

So I could accept Christ (somehow) right before dying... exactly.

By the way, interesting thing, that's how Jesus was deified.

Teh-Ephy: Alot of empirical evidence is given in archealogical studies, and other things. But atheistic scientific bodies wont accept it. Because if it involves God, it is usually stamped as un-credible.

No, if it involves its proof being god, then it is, and for good reason.

And a lot of scientists are still religious.

EDIT: response to Purplepoot: I never said it was valid. But I do think that if you are so very eager to ask me to prove that God (A higher being so incomprehensible to the human mind) exists, then you should oblige to prove he does'nt.

Prove to me that you didn't murder my second cousin, twice removed.

Should I say that you are guilty of murder until you can disprove it?

No. You should ask me to prove it.

And no I did not put words in your mouth. But if that is not what you think, then what is your reasoning for God's non-existence.

Well, you have already seen much of it, but maybe it's partly because I wasn't raised in a family which rubbed the bible in my face every day.

Oh, and don't say I don't have experience, because I had to go to a Catholic school, including mass once a month and religion class, for 4 years, since there were no other french immersion schools where I live that were as good.

 

[Elenai]

Just because there are more God loving people in the world does not mean we are the most corrupt. And my church (the body of Christ IE: all saved people) is not corrupt. Only people are corrupt.

And interesting fact: Jesus was already diefied when he got here. Look at Biblical knowledge and you will see that.

Also the bible wasnt rubbed in my face as a child. I found Christ on my own.

And alot of scientists may be religious...But they cant seem to put out any kind of stuff out supporting their religous belief without being bashed down.

 

[PurplePoot]

Just because there are more God loving people in the world does not mean we are the most corrupt.

Even by percent...

Do you hear stories about atheists doing all sorts of shiz like that, because of being atheist, even from religious fanatics?

Nope.

(And I'm not counting satanic possession and such, reality first please)

And interesting fact: Jesus was already diefied when he got here. Look at your Biblical knowledge.

Has it ever occurred to you that documents can be edited? The Dead Sea Scrolls are a great example of this.

Also the bible wasnt rubbed in my face as a child. I found Christ on my own.

Ah. Sorry for generalizing there, I guess ><

 

[Elenai]

If those documents were edited then the early church would have been highly discredited by the jewish sects and Christianity would have died out as a false cult LONG ago. And not too mention that they would have to edit not only the NT but also the prophecies and knowledge about the messiah that is INGRAINED!!! in the OT.

And also, The Dead Sea scrolls are not Christian in origin, nor do they even mention Christ. They are Old Testament pieces. Not New Testament.

(At least thats what I know sofar) But I'm really quite sure that it is OT only. (I may need to re look at this.)

 

[PurplePoot]

They go as late as 100 CE.

Also, it wouldn't've died out, it killed all its enemies or converted them too fast

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I like how Poot likes to stick to reality.

 

[PurplePoot]

Was that sarcasm or seriousness, WILL? It's hard to tell, guess it depends on who you agree with or what you're referencing

Anyways, 888 posts (you have)

 

[JarrardKO]

Who the hell said Evolution doesn't have any evidence? Silly person.

-The human chromosomes are VERY similar to ape chromosomes.
-A collection of discovered skulls from different timeliness shows the teeth size differences, brain size differences which were very alike and how they 'evolved' into our current shape. I think they're called fossils actually.

That's evidence to support evolution... What has Creationism got? Nothing. I mean, Creationists are getting soooo desperate they are resorting to claims such as "Noah's son used a flying dinosaur together animals from across the world to put on the ark." It's pathetic.

Where did all the water for the flood come in the first place? Where did it all go? I mean, back in the olden days, the Vikings and Greeks and stuff needed iron backing for their wooden ships as a completely wooden ship would have leaks. Noah's ark was completely made out of wood.

Also, about "what if you're wrong and God does exist".. Well, what if we're all wrong and we anger the REAL God eh? Like Allah? Or the spaghetti monster?!

And for some news..

A man shouting "God will save me if he exists", lowered himself by a rope into the big cats’ enclosure in Kiev zoo, Ukraine, on Sunday, 4 June, when the zoo was packed with visitors. He then took his shoes off and went up to the lions. A lioness knocked him down and severed his carotid artery, killing him instantly.

Where was God? Where was the miracle?!

Lastly, while I'm here.. Being a basic Christian doesn't teach you morals. If you Christians have morals and are all loving, why is that Christians make up 74% of the prison system??..

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Teh-Ephy: Alot of empirical evidence is given in archealogical studies, and other things. But atheistic scientific bodies wont accept it. Because if it involves God, it is usually stamped as un-credible. And there is no evidence for evolution...most evidence seems to be against evolution. But that is for the Evolution thread.

I'm fully aware of there being empirical proof of several many stories in the bible. That isn't empirical evidence that God exists, though. Let's say John Deer is widely considered to be both extremely truthful, and a vicious liar. If the people who consider him truthful prove a few things he says to be true, does that make everything he says true? No. Same thing with the bible; many consider it to be true, and many consider it to be false. Just because several stories are true does not mean that absolutely everything in the bible is truth, especially with as many internal inconsistencies as it has for such an important text.

If those documents were edited then the early church would have been highly discredited by the jewish sects and Christianity would have died out as a false cult LONG ago. And not too mention that they would have to edit not only the NT but also the prophecies and knowledge about the messiah that is INGRAINED!!! in the OT.

And also, The Dead Sea scrolls are not Christian in origin, nor do they even mention Christ. They are Old Testament pieces. Not New Testament.

(At least thats what I know sofar) But I'm really quite sure that it is OT only. (I may need to re look at this.)

You do know that the Gospel of Mary has been discovered... right? Not to mention a handful of other texts that were excluded from the New Testament. Separate from the Dead Sea scrolls, in some cliff in the desert, if I remember correctly. In fact, the Gospel of Mary had some rather significant knowledge in it. Something about the mind instead of either the body or soul... I can't remember. But it was on the history channel. Also, I thought it was generally accepted that during some period of corruption in its infancy, the Catholic Church (or whatever it was then) edited the bible.

Also, about "what if you're wrong and God does exist".. Well, what if we're all wrong and we anger the REAL God eh? Like Allah?

Oh, irony. Allah is just the Arabic word for God. They literally have no other word. Jews and Christians that speak only Arabic call God "Allah." Not to mention that the Muslim Allah is the same God as the Judeo-Christian one. Oh noes, what if we anger Diós? Oh wait—Diós is just Spanish for God.

Lastly, while I'm here.. Being a basic Christian doesn't teach you morals. If you Christians have morals and are all loving, why is that Christians make up 74% of the prison system??..

Because they make up a lot more than that percentage of the US population... duh. You should take a look at what % of Christians are in jail compared to what % of other religious groups are in jail.

 

[Shados]

Atheists do, at least in their inner minds. "God does not exist, for there is no proof that he does." Am I correct?

You can read minds?

-*meow*

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Nah, it wasn't sarcasm.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

-The human chromosomes are VERY similar to ape chromosomes.

99.7% the same i think it is.

I mean, back in the olden days, the Vikings and Greeks and stuff needed iron backing for their wooden ships as a completely wooden ship would have leaks. Noah's ark was completely made out of wood.

also for all the estimated 40 million species of organism to be kept on a boat and fed and have a habitat simulating its natural environment it would need a massive boat. out of all the bible stories i hope this is the one taken least as literal truth because its just mad. not unless God actually just flooded a small part of europe and all the animals and that were put on a few floating logs for a day or two. i personally find this impossible to be literal truth unless i could actually prove it. not only that but the amount of wood, rope and other materials needed to build the thing would be immense anyway, and thats not mentioning the time considering there was only a few people building it which would take years.

Lastly, while I'm here.. Being a basic Christian doesn't teach you morals. If you Christians have morals and are all loving, why is that Christians make up 74% of the prison system??..

alot of those prisoners are catholic too.

 

[SimonKurciski]

Posted by Teh_Ephy
I DEMAND THAT THIS ENTIRE THREAD PAY ATTENTION TO ME WHEN I SAY THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE IN EITHER DIRECTION.

He's right. There is no absolute proof on either side of the argument.

 

[Kitabatake]

He's right. There is no absolute proof on either side of the argument.

I could say I saw a pink elephant flying in the skies and nobody can give an absolute proof I am wrong.

The point is, you cannot give ABSOLUTE PROOF about ANYTHING.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

In closing, If I am wrong, and God doesn't exist, who cares. If you are wrong, and God does exist... that will suck won't it (unless you led a good life, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).

1. In closing, If I am wrong, and there is no treasure chest in your backyard, who cares. If you are wrong, and there is a treasure chest... that will suck won't it (unless you are rich and famous, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).
2. The matter of belief is not a light switch. Hell, I want to believe that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, but does that make it so?

 

[PurplePoot]

Also, even if there is a god, that doesn't necessarily mean there's heaven and hell. (Thanks to MySpaceBar for mentioning the light switch, made me think to say this)

And Kitabatake, math is provable, that's really it though.

And could we not say that you've wasted a lot of your life should you be wrong?

 

[Kitabatake]

And Kitabatake, math is provable, that's really it though.?

How can you give an "absolute proof" about it?

What if everyone thinks mathematics exist, but it really doesn't?
What if people just think that 1+1=2 but it really isn't ?

 

[PurplePoot]

What if people just think that 1+1=2 but it really isn't ?

Judging by the fact that math is an artificial concept which follows the rules of its creation, 1+1=2.

What you're saying would be like me saying that we may very well be all talking German right now, which is just silly.

 

[Kitabatake]

Judging by the fact that math is an artificial concept which follows the rules of its creation, 1+1=2.

What you're saying would be like me saying that we may very well be all talking German right now, which is just silly.

1+1=2 because we have agreed that it is so.
But still, how can you prove it to be correct?

If we think very philosophically you cannot really prove anything.

What if you would have received false information all your life and just thought that mathematics existed when it really did not?
Yeah a very weird idea, but still, you can't prove it wrong.

The question about God's existence is pretty much the same.
People have just agreed that it exists.

So if we think philosophically there is no way to prove God exists or doesn't exist. But you cannot prove anything else either.

But on the other hand, if we think logically we will find out that 1+1=2 and God doesn't exist

 

[PurplePoot]

1+1=2 because we have agreed that it is so.
But still, how can you prove it to be correct?

As I've said, since humans created math and defined that 1+1=2, 1+1 is indeed =2 (Unless there's a worldwide conspiracy, but even if so, then the math we know as math still has 1+1=2)

Thus it's not the same as god

 

[Kitabatake]

As I've said, since humans created math and defined that 1+1=2, 1+1 is indeed =2 (Unless there's a worldwide conspiracy, but even if so, then the math we know as math still has 1+1=2)

As I said before, you can't prove it. And like you said yourself:

"Unless there's a worldwide conspiracy...."

See? You can't prove there is no conspiracy, you can't prove people haven't lied everything about mathematics, you can't prove anything.

You can only think logically...

Thus it's not the same as god

How do you mean?

You cannot prove that god exists, you can't prove that god doesn't exist.
But you cannot prove anything else neither.

Same with math, you cannot prove it exists, you cannot prove it doesn't.

So there is no use trying to find an "absolute proof", as such thing does not exist about anything.
The best thing to do is to think logically and trust in the things that seem most probable.

So to find out if God exists, one should think what is the probability that it exists.

If God does exist, then why do people suffer even if they worship it? why do some satanists, heretics and atheists have fun and good time? Why doesn't God give a sign that he is there? Doesn't make much sense...

If God doesn't exist, then why do so many people believe in it?
Just because they have agreed that God exists? Like people have agreed that 1+1=2 ?

Personally I have found that it is a lot more probable that God does not exist. Everything that happens can be explained without having God involved.


Edit: Getting tired so sorry if the text is a bit bulky

 

[PurplePoot]

See? You can't prove there is no conspiracy, you can't prove people haven't lied everything about mathematics, you can't prove anything.

You can only think logically...

You're misquoting me.

 

[Kitabatake]

You're misquoting me.

How do you mean?

 

[GST_Nemisis]

i think one thing that is relevant to what you and purplepoot is that we have to take what we can prove existing and correct as correct. for example i am using a keyboard to type therefore the keybord must exist. whether or not it actually does, whether we are in a matrix and its not real is irrellevant, because we see it, can feel it and are using it we can assume it exists. the same goes for maths. technically 1+1 could be 5 and infact all your teachers have purposefully taught you wrong on purpose and everyone who ever talks about maths is part of the conspiracy, but because we dont know this we must assume that 1+1 = 2 because this is what we have experienced to be correct. all this is doing is taking what we know and assuming it to be correct whether it is wrong or not, this is just logically taking what is infront of us and believe it must be there because we can see it and feel it or we know it is true because we can experience it. the same goes for God, if you can see or feel or experience God we can therfore assume he exists. i personally have never experienced God and in my opinoin all the "miracles" that supposedly happen are either BS or something that would have happened anyway but because they prayed it must have been God and not those pills the doctor gave them. therefore, for me, i must logically assume that God does not exist, until i experience him in some way at which point i must logically asume that he does exist. untill that day i sit on the fence.

 

[Hakeem]

A placebo effect would most likley never be that strong. Especially when the woman was accepting death. Ironically this miracle also happened during the Christmas season, and after alot of people prayed.

Accepting death can cause a placebo effect.

If those documents were edited then the early church would have been highly discredited by the jewish sects and Christianity would have died out as a false cult LONG ago. And not too mention that they would have to edit not only the NT but also the prophecies and knowledge about the messiah that is INGRAINED!!! in the OT.

Only a few people actually had access to all the holy documents. If it were like today, the original would be distributed via the internet, and changing it would not fool enough people. They didn't have internet back then, a handful of people controlled the bible's words.

Like Allah? Or the spaghetti monster?!

Oh, man, I hope nobody reports that comparison...

In closing, If I am wrong, and there is no treasure chest in your backyard, who cares. If you are wrong, and there is a treasure chest... that will suck won't it (unless you are rich and famous, then I'm pretty sure you're fine).

Invalid metaphor.

If God does exist, then why do people suffer even if they worship it? why do some satanists, heretics and atheists have fun and good time?

If god exists, then he made the whole thing. He made good and evil, to say god is all good is fallacy.

Why doesn't God give a sign that he is there?

Because he doesn't want everyone to believe. If he so willed, he could easily have done so.

Everything that happens can be explained without having God involved.

Yep. We can explain it all. Everything that has happened, happens, and ever will happen, can be explained by science.
When anything can't be explained, divine explanations occur.
We have grown since the day of thinking the world was flat, we can now explain just about everything. Except one very important, and very different thing. Which Shados brought up.

----
Ok, lets clarify:
- You cannot disprove god.
- The proof of god is small: anything we cannot explain.

Currently, we inhabit this one universe, in which we can explain it all with science.
There is one thing that we cannot explain, and no evidence can ever be found to know exactly how it happened: Beginning.

Why must a linear existence be true? As far as I can tell, it is logically impossible; something cannot come from nothing. Either nothing exists or existence is circular.

There is a problem with that: Even if time is circular, the default would be nothingness. Something still needs to cause matter or energy to be created, in order for the circle to continue.

We can never know how anything came to be, because what there must have been at first, is an endless void of pure nothingness. Such a time would leave no evidence, and nothing, in such a world, should cause anything to happen. But clearly, something exists.

Unfortunately, at that point, the creation of anything - including god - doesn't make sense.
WTF?

EDIT:
As for the logic in 1+1=2, take the quantities that the symbols represent:
1: an amount representing *
2: an amount representing **
+: a calculation that combines amounts
=: a comparison that indicates that 2 amounts are equal
Therefore, combining * and * is equal to **

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Invalid metaphor.

Elaborate or don't say anything at all.

Even if time is circular, the default would be nothingness. Something still needs to cause matter or energy to be created, in order for the circle to continue.

...no. Time being circular means the default is everything in the world was always here. Matter or energy was never created, just changing between forms constantly.

 

[Elenai]

...no. Time being circular means the default is everything in the world was always here. Matter or energy was never created, just changing between forms constantly.

That kind of logic could be applied to God aswell.

 

[DesKaladA]

Can we just move along
if not this might help
http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/anonymous/strip/2007/09/29/who-is-this-god-fellow-any-way.png
lets let just let my think thank give you the awns or to LIFE THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYING

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

That kind of logic could be applied to God aswell.

Duh? But it counteracts a common argument that "everything must have a creator".

Can we just move along
if not this might help
http://static.stripgenerator.com/gen...ow-any-way.png
lets let just let my think thank give you the awns or to LIFE THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYING

Wow. You just made Dr00d's comics look funny.

 

[Hakeem]

Why would the circle of time be what it is?
By your logic, it could have been anything. Some odds must have played a role in the creation of the time ring, meaning external creation. External creation doesn't help as we want to know where the first thing came from.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Why would the circle of time be what it is?
By your logic, it could have been anything. Some odds must have played a role in the creation of the time ring, meaning external creation. External creation doesn't help as we want to know where the first thing came from.

That's part of the logic that "If god created the world, who created god?" yes?

Also, circular means the universe was here forever. It didn't have to come from anything.

 

[PurplePoot]

Kitabatake, what I was talking about is that I said

(Unless there's a worldwide conspiracy, but even if so, then the math we know as math still has 1+1=2)

You quoted me

"Unless there's a worldwide conspiracy...."

Which means a way different thing than what I said.

---

And one of my reasons for not believing in god is;

We understand that the Big Bang can be reproduced, right?

Cases:

1. Say it was god that did it, it can be reproduced.
2. Say it was something else, it can still be reproduced.

God doesn't really change the outcome here. (apparently)

Now, for the big bang to have occurred we need matter, probably traveling at very high speeds and colliding with other matter.

So now, where did this matter come from?

Cases:

1. The matter was just there, we don't know why or where it came from, but it was.
2. The matter was created by god. We don't know why or where he came from, he just is

So, we are presented with two tossed-around solutions

Solutions:

1. Believe a blob of matter with nothing special about it existed
2. Believe an intelligent, omniscient, immortal, omnipotent being existed

I hope you can understand one of the reasons why I put my odds where I do.

 

[Elenai]

I pick number 2. A universe as ordered as this one and as delicately balanced as this one does not occur by sheer natural chance.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I pick number 2. A universe as ordered as this one and as delicately balanced as this one does not occur by sheer natural chance.

How would you know how balanced, delicate, and ordered our universe is? It's so expansive, and we are such a small part of it. Sure, if you pin a tail on a mile long donkey blindfolded, there's doubt that you will get it right. But what if you tried it a couple million times?

 

[Elenai]

You can see that it is quite ordered. Even the very building blocks Atoms are ordered things. Balanced, or they try to balance themselves by attracting electrons and such.

 

[PurplePoot]

You can see that it is quite ordered. Even the very building blocks Atoms are ordered things. Balanced, or they try to balance themselves by attracting electrons and such.

So the fact that opposite charges attract proves god? What doesn't prove god, now? Does atheism prove god, because it was his plan to make some people attempt to deceive the faithful and show who truly deserves heaven?

By the way, atoms aren't really that specially ordered.

• Protons are attracted to electrons, and vice versa
• Electrons repel Electrons, Protons repel Protons
• Neutrons stick protons together
• Electrons are smaller and thus orbit around protons
• due to their conflicting charges, atoms that are not bonded to each other will stay as far away from each other as possible in their current condition

My point was that there's a lot of reasoning in my above example that should make you understand for what reasons I choose not to follow your lord and savior.

 

[Hakeem]

To say that time is circular doesn't mean that there should be matter, it should, by default, be empty. The fact that our version of time exists (one other than the default), means that all the other possibilities must exist as well.
If our time ring is not exclusive, then they coexist, meaning that the exist within a common something. Where did that something come from?

In the beginning, there must have been a endless void.

 

[Elenai]

The fact that the building blocks of the universe are ordered and that the universe is pretty much ordered means that mere nature and chance did not produce it.

 

[PurplePoot]

The fact that the building blocks of the universe are ordered and that the universe is pretty much ordered means that mere nature and chance did not produce it.

So they couldn't produce blobs of energy with slight structuring, but they could produce an all-powerful, all-knowing, intelligent being?

Your logic isn't reaching me.

 

[Elenai]

God always was...He was never produced.

And that God made an ordered universe intelligently.

That universe is ordered because it was made to be ordered.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

God always was...He was never produced.

And that God made an ordered universe intelligently.

That universe is ordered because it was made to be ordered.

This is so far-fetched and ridiculous it makes me cry.

 

[Elenai]

Cry me a river then.

Or perhaps an ocean and mabye life will spring out of it.

 

[PurplePoot]

Elenai.

The reason everyone is laughing at you is that you're saying your arguments are true, and that our arguments aren't true because of reasons that disprove your arguments at least as much.

You ask us where matter comes from, but when we ask you where god comes from you just say he always has been...

(And so on)