Existence of God

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I think it's obvious humans come from apes. Or at least really ape-looking men, maybe not the austrolohiatcaus or whetver his name is.

You can't say Adam and Eve were the first humans. It's basically fact that the cavemen are related to us. Seriously, that's the kind of stuff you can't deny.

Okay, if we could lay off the "gay is a sin" comment, then I might not lose all respect for Elenai. Seriously.

 

[Elenai]

Willthealmighty: Just for the record, I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals as people and ect. I might not like their lifestyle and.....ect. But it is not my postition to judge them.

"Judge not lest ye be judged"

And while cavemen may be related to us. (in the neanderthal side of things) I believe they are perhaps a branch off of the original human. Made more ruff and sturdy (as their appearance suggests) By adapting to the colder environment of the north.

..........Branch of humans similar to Homosapien
Adam<
..........Branch of humans similar to Neanderthal

And then perhaps they mingled and merged. (but I'm not entirely sure)

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Well, human evolution from the cavemen IS the official version taught in schools...

 

[PurplePoot]

Sorry Hakeem, it's just tempting =/

Anyways, without Christianity, this would've ended a while ago -.-

And sorry, why does Evolution support a god? I wouldn't say it's against one, but I wouldn't say it supports one...

For Elenai, About Christianity

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant,
3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky,
4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,
5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.
6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in
13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known),
14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you,
15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.
16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
17 None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers,
18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

" 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,
19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Oh, and after all that, apparently the law of god is perfect.

The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

Nuff said.

 

[Elenai]

The Law of God is perfect.

A: Most of those quotes are OldTestament. And as I explained, harsh punishments were needed to keep the Jewish blood line clean, and the people clean from sinful influence. But now with Christ, who took the away sins of humanity and bought humanity with his own blood. Those punishments are no longer needed. You need only accept him to have your sins pardoned and the punishment for your sins taken away.

B: The wages of sin is death, Those punishments were just.

C: Slaves were property in all nations at the time. Here is a bit of info.

About Slavery

Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed. Where many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

The Bible acknowledged the slave’s status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:23; Lev. 25:46),
The Bible restricted the master’s power over the slave. Ex. 21:20).
The slave was a member of the master’s household (Lev. 22:11)
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14)
The slave was required and to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44; Lev. 22:11).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14)
The reality of slavery cannot be denied. Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, and privately owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1

 

[PurplePoot]

What I'm saying is;

You actually support those?

C: Slaves were property in all nations at the time. Here is a bit of info.

But if god was perfect, he would've made it known that slavery was wrong, yes?

B: The wages of sin is death, Those punishments were just.

You approve of the killing of billions of people?

You disgust me.

 

[Elenai]

Billions? It wasnt even close to billions.

And God did make it known that he did not approve of slavery, through his actions in Egypt when he sent Moses to free the Israelite slaves. But because God allows free will, slavery still existed.

Do you approve of murderers, thieves, adulterers, liars, ect?

And I dont need to support them. Because those punishments are no longer needed. Because God in his unmatchable mercy gave his only begotten son Christ, to pay for those sins so that humanity wouldnt have to face them, and so they wouldnt have to face the eternal punishment. They only need to accept the pardon.

 

[PurplePoot]

Billions? It wasnt even close to billions.

Erm, killing all people who aren't Christian, that amounts for a hell of a lot of people.

Do you approve of murderers, thieves, adulterers, liars, ect?

I didn't mention murderers. (I don't approve of them obviously, not sure exactly where my beliefs on punishment for them stand) However, no, I don't agree with the others, but I think there are other options than killing.

 

[Elenai]

During the Old Testament times the death penalty was used in country only. And there were hardly billions in the nation of Judea, or Samaria combined. And people were not killed left and right for sinning. The people could easily have gone to the temple and gave sin offerings for forgiveness.

And there were more options than just killing.

And not too mention that during the OT Christianity was non-existent. And when Christianity came about, those punishments were not needed anymore.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

So then... what I'm getting out of that is the New Testament admits that either a change has happened or that the Old Testament is wrong. Either way, the New Testament does contradict the Old Testament, whether it's an acknowledged contradiction or not.

Also, Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals both lived generally nomadic lives during the same time period.

 

[Elenai]

What about the New Testament condtradicts the Old? And if the Old Testament is wrong....Then about 90% of Ancient Hebrew history is wrong....and a good chunk of ancient Middle East history needs to be rewritten and re-discovered.

Also, Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals both lived generally nomadic lives during the same time period.

So.......

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Hmm. St. Augustine's argument for God's benevolence and omniscience: Knowledge of an event's occurrence does not cause that event. God knows what's going to happen, but S/He doesn't go out and actively cause it.

It's a very sound argument until you throw omnipotence in, although I'm sure that there's an argument for that.

Yeah, there is. Because omnipotence means you have the ability to defy logic, it is the true deus ex machina of theism.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The basic concept of Chritianity is important, but when death penalties and refusal for other beliefs is thrown in, and considering the ridiculous amounts of terrible things done for "god", it just looks like a terrible thing to keep.

 

[PurplePoot]

During the Old Testament times the death penalty was used in country only. And there were hardly billions in the nation of Judea, or Samaria combined. And people were not killed left and right for sinning. The people could easily have gone to the temple and gave sin offerings for forgiveness.

And there were more options than just killing.

And not too mention that during the OT Christianity was non-existent. And when Christianity came about, those punishments were not needed anymore.

But you just said the law of god is perfect?

You're starting to contradict yourself.

 

[Elenai]

The basic concept of Chritianity is important, but when death penalties and refusal for other beliefs is thrown in, and considering the ridiculous amounts of terrible things done for "god", it just looks like a terrible thing to keep.

We are not to kill those who wont follow Christ, We are to give them the Gospel. NOwhere does Christ say, "Kill the unbeliever."

And PurplePoot, The law of God is perfect, but even so their are more options than killing that are given in the Bible. One of these is repentence.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I wasn't speaking of today's christianity, just the terrible things that have been done for it.

 

[PurplePoot]

And PurplePoot, The law of God is perfect, but even so their are more options than killing that are given in the Bible. One of these is repentence.

Apparently not presented around any of those quotes.

But even so, you're saying they should have to repent (aka become Christian) or die? Not much better.

 

[Modo]

As has probably been said in this forum already, "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner". Just because you do bad things is not an instant damnation. Look in Kings, God assissts in the killing of about 65000 people over 3 or 4 days.

PurplePoot, you do not have to be a Christian, you just have to live a good (as opposed to evil) life, then you will have eternal life. I am a Christian and plan to read every type of Bible so that I am sure of my beliefs. The Bible is basically a textbook for life. Taken at face value it is the original Health & Lifestyle guide. To understand it in the Christian context, it helps to be a Christian and read with prayer in your heart. This probably sounds like "crystal clutching hippie poo (forum rules say I cannot swear, but I think you know which word I mean)" but it gives hope to those who have nothing else.

WILLTHEALMIGHTY, I agree that bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. Every religion has its extremists. Every religion also has [at least] one religion it thinks is evil. I've heard that Muslim beliefs say Christianity is evil (if I am wrong, please tell me) and I believe the Catholic is wrong. I mean the religion, not the followers. Catholic had the Inquisiton that did really bad things like go to Norway, line everyone in the villages up and ask "Are you a Catholic?" if they answered "No", "Will you become one" if they answered "No" again, they were killed.

I am an open minded Christian, which means most people cannot detect my beliefs unless there is something in direct conflict with my beliefs. I believe that the Bible asks us to be open minded. Keep our beliefs, try to convert others but dont be so heavy about it. "Saturation leads to repulsion". Remeber, Jesus wasn't always serious. He had fun, he laughed, he played.

Sometimes I think life is like D&D, Every religious deity is a player and we are all the characters of one of these gods. Aethiests are randoms and NPCs. My problem with this theory is, who is the Dungeon Master? I think it is God. Damn, now I have to ponder this. My university assignments can wait.

 

[Kitabatake]

What what what?

During the Old Testament, God had to keep the Jewish blood line pure and as sinless as possible. Homosexuality the bible says is an afront to God's design for man/woman relationships. And thus they were stoned for putting sin in the Hebrew scociety. People recieved harsh punishments during these times, because God did not want the Jews (his chosen people) To become sinful and un-pure like the kingdoms around them.

NO OFFENCE
...but...

Just change the words:
"Old Testament" to "Third Reich"
"Jewish" and "Hebrew" to "Aryan"
"God" to "Hitler"
"bible" to "Mein Kampf"

Noticing anything?

History repeating itself again... But because it was the "God in his unmatchable mercy", it can all be approved and smiled upon! Let's all become christians! [/sarcasm]


Makes me see the whole christianity from a whole new point of view...

So is this "God" a very sadistic and uncaring thing?
Or are the christians wrong?

And sorry if I offended anyone with this comparison.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I think I'll just leave the subject, not that anything's been going wrong or being annoying, I just don't feel like "arguing" anymore.

So, my last word here:

Bible = Story book with morals, not fact/history book

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I've heard that Muslim beliefs say Christianity is evil (if I am wrong, please tell me)

You are wrong on so many levels that it isn't even funny. Technically, Muslims accept everything in the Old and New Testaments. They believe in everything that Christians and Jews do.

Just change the words:
"Old Testament" to "Third Reich"
"Jewish" and "Hebrew" to "Aryan"
"God" to "Hitler"
"bible" to "Mein Kampf"

Noticing anything?

History repeating itself again... But because it was the "God in his unmatchable mercy", it can all be approved and smiled upon! Let's all become christians! [/sarcasm].

All I can say is [HIGHLIGHT]OH SHI—[/code]. Dividing by zero does not fuck the universe over this badly.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Intresting little thread.

I believe God does not exist. Why? Because it seems too far-fetched. I think people just can't comprehend death and creation and such so they make up something. No one can really think of "death". Since once your life ends there is nothing, but nothing in itself is incomprehensible. What happens to our conscience when we die? I think of it like when we got to sleep and then wake up and feel like we just put our head down for only a second, and then look outside and it's daylight. But instead of waking up you just don't. No consciousness, no feeling, nothing. But it's still hard to think of in my opinion. Overall it seems like a likely reason someone would invent "God." If he is real, I'm gonna sail away to heaven when I die if what the Bible says is true.

Notice the words in bold. If you don't believe God exists then I don't think he will let you sail away to heaven! I mean really if you were God how would you feel if someone didn't believe in you, and then they come knocking at your doorstep asking to come in to heaven...

Another note: If the bible IS'NT true then why not belive in God anyway? That way if God does exist you have a sure ticket to heaven. makes good sense to me. So if he does or doesn't exist you don't have to worry cause if he does then you'll go to heaven! lol

Anyway true christians are nice ppl and treat you with respect and kindness. Which is better than ppl who couldn't care less about you, only care about themselves, and don't give a shit about what they do in life no matter how sinful it is.

 

[PurplePoot]

As has probably been said in this forum already, "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner". Just because you do bad things is not an instant damnation. Look in Kings, God assissts in the killing of about 65000 people over 3 or 4 days.

So you're justifying that...?

PurplePoot, you do not have to be a Christian, you just have to live a good (as opposed to evil) life, then you will have eternal life. I am a Christian and plan to read every type of Bible so that I am sure of my beliefs. The Bible is basically a textbook for life. Taken at face value it is the original Health & Lifestyle guide. To understand it in the Christian context, it helps to be a Christian and read with prayer in your heart. This probably sounds like "crystal clutching hippie poo (forum rules say I cannot swear, but I think you know which word I mean)" but it gives hope to those who have nothing else.

But wait, I thought you had to repent for not being Christian? According to Elenai, anyways.

Which would make you have to become Christian, yes?

I am an open minded Christian, which means most people cannot detect my beliefs unless there is something in direct conflict with my beliefs. I believe that the Bible asks us to be open minded. Keep our beliefs, try to convert others but dont be so heavy about it. "Saturation leads to repulsion". Remeber, Jesus wasn't always serious. He had fun, he laughed, he played.

Sometimes I think life is like D&D, Every religious deity is a player and we are all the characters of one of these gods. Aethiests are randoms and NPCs. My problem with this theory is, who is the Dungeon Master? I think it is God. Damn, now I have to ponder this. My university assignments can wait.

You're not a Bible Thumper?

Thanks, I think we can get along

---

That's disturbing, Kitabatake, but very nice observation. True, too.

---

Seph;

Notice the words in bold. If you don't believe God exists then I don't think he will let you sail away to heaven! I mean really if you were God how would you feel if someone didn't believe in you, and then they come knocking at your doorstep asking to come in to heaven...

As far as I know, if you accept god in the end you get into heaven.

Another note: If the bible IS'NT true then why not belive in God anyway? That way if God does exist you have a sure ticket to heaven. makes good sense to me. So if he does or doesn't exist you don't have to worry cause if he does then you'll go to heaven! lol

But you're probably even more screwed if you worship the wrong god than an atheist is for worshipping no god.

Anyway true christians are nice ppl and treat you with respect and kindness. Which is better than ppl who couldn't care less about you, only care about themselves, and don't give a shit about what they do in life no matter how sinful it is.

All the atheists I know are nice too. There are Christians who are murderers too. In fact, history is stained by religious violence, not much to do with atheism in there, is there?

You're stereotyping, bad ones at that.

 

[Elenai]

But wait, I thought you had to repent for not being Christian? According to Elenai, anyways.

Which would make you have to become Christian, yes?

Salvation is through grace alone, not through works. And you do not repent for not being a Christian. You repent to become one.

As far as I know, if you accept god in the end you get into heaven.

I'm sorry, but. That is incorrect. You must accept God while you are alive to enter heaven.

All the atheists I know are nice too. There are Christians who are murderers too. In fact, history is stained by religious violence, not much to do with atheism in there, is there?

You're stereotyping, bad ones at that.

Yes there are nice Atheists. A good many infact. But remember to not stereotype Christians either. (just a friendly note of wisdom)

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Judging a religion by anything other than the vast majority of its followers will give you a skewed perspective of the religion. Assuming that a certain group (a great many nice Christians/atheists, a great many bad Christians/athiests) is representative of the larger whole is also going to give you a skewed perspective of the religion. As an example, the Nazis were Christians. That's a large number of Christians, but not a large percentage of Christianity.

 

[PurplePoot]

Salvation is through grace alone, not through works. And you do not repent for not being a Christian. You repent to become one.

Exactly, you're saying "join us or die", quite literally.

As said before, you horribly disgust me.

I'm sorry, but. That is incorrect. You must accept God while you are alive to enter heaven.

I know. "In the end" being on your deathbed, or whenever.

Yes there are nice Atheists. A good many infact. But remember to not stereotype Christians either. (just a friendly note of wisdom)

When I'm saying history is stained by religious violence, I'm not saying that all Christians are violent, I'm just saying that "peace and happiness" does not apply to all Christians and no non-Christians.

 

[Elenai]

Exactly, you're saying "join us or die", quite literally.

As said before, you horribly disgust me.

Hey, I tell the truth of the word as it is. I could lie to you and give you a false doctrine that is totally worthless that could eternally damn your soul if you want?

I know. "In the end" being on your deathbed, or whenever.

I thought you meant.."And at the pearly gates he said...I believe now. Can I come in?"

When I'm saying history is stained by religious violence, I'm not saying that all Christians are violent, I'm just saying that "peace and happiness" does not apply to all Christians and no non-Christians.

This is true. Violence is a part of human nature. Everyone struggles with violence issues. But as a whole we each strive for peace....unless one wants to fight alot.

 

[PurplePoot]

Hey, I tell the truth of the word as it is. I could lie to you and give you a false doctrine that is totally worthless that could eternally damn your soul if you want?

You're acting as if it's 100% proven that that's true.

And I thought people were supposed to have free will, your god or someone said that?

If so, forced conversion/death are not exactly upholding that.

 

[Elenai]

You have free will. You have choices. And one of those choices is, Heaven or Hell. Simple as that.

And you are not forced to convert. Because if you are saved then you did so without force. If one is forced to accept Christ then he hasnt truely accepted him, and has not recieved grace and is not saved.

Salvation is given by God, between you and the LORD. Not between you and a priest. Nor is it given by a priest.

 

[PurplePoot]

Erm, last time I checked you said the law of god was perfect, and you had to be killed or repent, and repentance meant converting to Christianity.

---

Sorry Hakeem, =/

 

[Elenai]

The Law of God is perfect. And back in the Old Testament, if you broke the law you recieved the laws punishment, and/or you went to the temple and offered a sin offering. When Christ came and when he died on the cross he became a permanent sin offering. And nowadays you do not have to face death for those laws.

Repentence in the OT did not mean converting to Christianity. Because back then when the law was carried out, it was in country and it was 99% a Jew who broke it. Thus when he repented. He was just repenting IE: "I ask for your forgiveness."

Now when people ask for the ultimate repentence. They go to Christ. Admit that they are sinners, and ask for salvation......and then they are saved and God sends the Holy spirit down upon them to guide them through their Christian growth.

 

[PurplePoot]

I didn't say it did, Elenai.

I said that you were saying that repentance for being of a different religion was to convert to Christianity.

 

[Denu]

I haven't looked at the off topic forums for a while. But it seems to be a bit of a broken record player or however the saying goes. There are still threads that seem to be designed to start flamewars. I thought that a specific forum (Medivh's Tower) was created for these touchy subjects.

I don't have anything to say on this matter other than to warn people to not get too involved in an obscure forum in a tiny corner of the internet.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I haven't looked at the off topic forums for a while. But it seems to be a bit of a broken record player or however the saying goes. There are still threads that seem to be designed to start flamewars. I thought that a specific forum (Medivh's Tower) was created for these touchy subjects.

Don't know why they don't post this kind of stuff in Medivh's Tower.. I guess it's because most people can't join those places... even so, people should move these types of forums. It's like accessing Medivh's tower without even qualifying for it.

 

[ankaboot]

Technically, Muslims accept everything in the Old and New Testaments. They believe in everything that Christians and Jews do.

Simply not true.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Salvation is through grace alone, not through works. And you do not repent for not being a Christian. You repent to become one.

This is true. And thats what the bible says about it. I can't believe you came up with somthing to oppose that like "your saying join us or die?" Your making it sound like its evil or somthing but its not. It's more like "Join us plz! join us before you get thrown into hell" Christians don't want people to go to hell, and wish that everyone would join them and go to heaven. There's no harshness to it, they just want to see everyone enjoy heaven and be with them in heaven.

Of course from what I've learned from being forced to go to church forever is, that God is a jealous God and he wants everyone to worship him and him alone. Sounds kinda evil but thats how it is.

Anyway I'll just agree with whatever Elenia says about everything from here on out and leave the thread cause if Elenia said this

Salvation is through grace alone, not through works. And you do not repent for not being a Christian. You repent to become one.

then I'm safe to agree with anything else said by Elenia. yup.

BTW: for all you ppl who know nothing about the bible: the old testament is not like the rules anymore, the new testament is. So whenever your hacking away at the bible don't refer to the old laws of the the OLD testament. They are not the laws anymore since the sacrifice of christ..

O yea and that passion of the christ movie was intresting. You should watch it. It like shows what happened with the sacrifice.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Simply not true.

Show me your proof that it isn't. According to my knowledge of Islam, it's an extension of Christianity the same way Christianity is an extension of Judaism. So, technically, Islam is an extension of both. They honour the same God, and more or less the same traditions. Even stoning sinners to death.

 

[marven15]

Ok, I think its getting hot in here dont you think? XD

Here's my point.

In Science, the statement "To see i to believe" fits well. You can't believe to anything unless you have seen it, touch it, etc. In religion on the other hand, has a statement "To believe is to see". They say that if you believe in God, you will see his miracles.

I learned this from my Philosophy class. And because of these statements, i believe that God does not exist. Why? If he is really there, why he didnt answer my prayers on the times i needed him the most? Why that everytime i call him nothing happens? I've been loyal to him. I believed in him. But he didnt answer. I can only conclude one answer, I'm praying to an unseen entity made by man himself. Man made this unseen entity to have someone to act as his guide, and blame whatever happens to his life(which in fact we are the one who makes the happenings to our lives).

 

[Elenai]

How do you know he didnt answer your prayers? Or where you simply blind to the subtle way he answered it? As I said before miracles do not have to be bright, shining, imacualate, chorus, beams of light manifestations.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

How do you know he didnt answer your prayers? Or where you simply blind to the subtle way he answered it? As I said before miracles do not have to be bright, shining, imacualate, chorus, beams of light manifestations.

To most people, miracles are usually so blatantly miraculous that you'd need to be an idiot not to at least use the word "miracle," with religious connotations or without, to describe it. The more subtle things that are credited to God would just be deemed God answering your prayers.

 

[Elenai]

"What is a miracle but an answer to a prayer?"........Some are blatant and blinding like Golden light, and some are subtle like it's warmth.

 

[PurplePoot]

Elenai, you're basically taking what is just as likely to be random luck, and saying it proves god. I think you know very well many prayers aren't "answered", especially the more unlikely they are.

It'd be like me saying I can disprove god because of AIDS in Africa...

 

[marven15]

How do you know he didnt answer your prayers? Or where you simply blind to the subtle way he answered it? As I said before miracles do not have to be bright, shining, imacualate, chorus, beams of light manifestations.

I'm not expecting it to be bright, shining, imacualate, chorus, beams of light manifestations. I'm expecting "atleast" a sign. A sign that would tell me what to do in my problems. But to bad for me, no sign appeared.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

"What is a miracle but an answer to a prayer?"........Some are blatant and blinding like Golden light, and some are subtle like it's warmth.

I said "to most people." The average layman does not consider uncanny luck to be miraculous, even if it technically could be.

 

[Elenai]

I was being a little poetic with that last post.

Technically it could be.

But a question I pose to you...Is it true that because the layman might not consider something to be something, is that something not the something that it is?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I was being a little poetic with that last post.

I actually noticed that pretty part between the quotation marks, but I was being an idiot layman .

But a question I pose to you...Is it true that because the layman might not consider something to be something, that something is not the something that it is?

The second part of that is worded as its own question, but it's an incredibly small discrepancy. Just so that you know, but I fixed it anyways and don't plan on holding such a little thing against you.

On to answering the question: No, but when discussing that something with any number of laymen, you should treat it as if it is not the something that it is (specifically, treat it as the something the laymen thinks it is) until you remove from those laymen their status as laymen. Stated simpler, when you're talking with laymen yes, but if you fully (adequately, at least) educate those laymen on that something, no.

I generally talk as if the status of "layman" may never be removed, although I tend to look like an idiot when I'm talking with people that aren't laymen. Eh.

Anyways, miracles are highly subjective. Using a close (but not entirely accurate) analogy, one man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's subtle luck is another man's miracle. Because, really, it's impossible to go and ask God if "Event A" was a miracle or not. You might as well assume that it was whatever you're arguing against (if you think it's a miracle, argue from the perspective that it isn't, vice versa) or don't even mention it; you'll get your arguments farther, especially by not mentioning it.

I'm sure this has been said in this thread (certainly on this forum) but areas that encroach on the topic of the realm of God tend to be a little hard to conclude. Quoting one of my teachers, it's a slippery slope. That means that this is going to go nowhere.

 

[ankaboot]

ankaboot: Simply not true.
Show me your proof that it isn't.

Muslims do not believe that universal salvation comes in Israel, thus do not believe everything that Jews believe.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus was God, thus do not believe everything that Christians believe.

According to my knowledge of Islam

You haven't shown any. What you say is not correct. Islam is not an "extension" of anything, it's what was promised to all humanity, not what was given exclusively to just one family.

Jesus was God's Word that He cast into Mary, the Messiah of Israel and the only man ever to walk the earth without sin or error. He was not the Messenger of the Covenant mentioned at Malachi 3:1 who was also known as Shiloh, who is mentioned and described in almost every book of the Bible. That news is what made up the Good News of the Kingdom, it's still in the Bible and did you know Islam and the histories, you'd recognize it wherever you saw it. The Good News that Jesus brought never made it to Europe.

But don't take my word for it, check it yourself. What you choose to believe is entirely your choice, no one can make it for you. That's called "liberty" and that's what God gives everybody.

Have a good evening.

 

[JarrardKO]

The bible is all fairy tale. I mean, if Jesus was a divine savior, could turn water into wine and walk on water, why is that the Greeks and romans never heard of him? For someone sooo important and amzing, he doesn't get mentioned at all does he?

 

[PurplePoot]

Because they were before his time, and he wasn't deified until the 4th century or so anyways, at the Council of Nicaea.

 

[Elenai]

The bible is all fairy tale. I mean, if Jesus was a divine savior, could turn water into wine and walk on water, why is that the Greeks and romans never heard of him? For someone sooo important and amzing, he doesn't get mentioned at all does he?

During his life, Christ did not travel outside of Israel. His mission was to bring salvation to the Hebrews and all in Israel (God's people) And his command to the Apostles was to bring the message of salvation to the Gentiles across the Earth. Paul one of the apostles, and several others did bring the words of Christ to the Greeks and Romans. See the book of Acts. Paul himself brought the word into the very heart of Rome herself. And the Bible is not a fairy story. It contains not just stories of miracles and biblical wisdom on morality. It is the chronicle/history book, of the entire Hebrew civilization up to the Roman occupation. Containing within its pages, the history of the Jewish kings, and the history of their exile in Babylonia. To call it a fairy tale is to slap nearly every single Jewish historian, Rabbi, and Hebrew in the face with dishonor and accusation of their long history being an utter falsehood. And since Christianity has its biblical foundation in the Bible, you would be slapping us in the face too. Not too mention it would be like me taking a history book and flipping through its pages just to say, "Every word of this is a fable."

Because they were before his time, and he wasn't deified until the 4th century or so anyways, at the Council of Nicaea.

Christ was deified not in the Council Of Nicaea, he was already deified. Here are some versus that support this.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:1,14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 10:30-33, I and the Father are one.' 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.

Col. 2:9, For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.