Existence of God

[donut3.5]

Sorry for bringing back an old topic, but I just got back to reading this more:
On Miracles:
Let's assume for the sake of debate that praying to God will, on a rare occasion and you truly need it, grant you miracle. But wait! Plenty of people pray, but not all to the same God, yet miraculous things happen to everyone, as Elenai said. Hold on though, why would God grant miracles to people who believe in a different God, when they go to hell for not accepting Christ as their savior and Him as their only God? He obviously wouldn't, unless he has some serious logic issues (possible, as seen from previous posts).
So how do you explain this? And saying miracles occur for those who believe in the Christian God, the others can all be explained through science is cheating.
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

Good point, donut.

And don't go on about god being the same god of Islam, Christianity, and so on. (If anyone's arguing against donut)

Why?

Romans prayed too. They were polytheist.

So were Greeks.

And so on, and so forth.

And did they have so called "miracles" too? Yes.

So do atheists.

It's like rolling a 1000-sided dice and calling a one coming up a miracle. If that's what you consider a miracle, it doesn't have much to do with god. (Or towards proving god anyways, if there is a god then it may very well be caused by that god)

 

[Elenai]

But who is going to get the last laugh I wonder?

And no I am saying your arguments are not true...Because you have no idea of who God is, and yet you decide to flaunt about saying he isnt real when you have not experienced him like I and millions of others have. You are directly slapping Christians who have experienced God's grace in the face. When you say that the god we have experienced is not real.

You provide no proof that he doesnt exist, just as I cannot rip open the heavens and say "HEY ITS GOD!!! LOOOK!!!"

Also your arguments do not disprove mine. Your arguments are a sham. All your arguments boil down to this (from what I have seen). "God does not exist because I have not seen him."

That isnt a good argument.

My arguments are that a god exists because this universe is too ordered to have just happened by natural chance and that it took an intelligent creator to make it, and my belief is that God made it. And that he exists because I have had far too many experiences of God in my life.

 

[PurplePoot]

But who is going to get the last laugh I wonder?

I guess we'll see.

Your arguments do not disprove mine. Your arguments are a sham. All your arguments boil down to this (from what I have seen). "God does not exist because I have not seen him."

How so?

My arguments are that a god exists because this universe is too ordered to have just happened by natural chance and that it took an intelligent creator to make it, and my belief is that God made it.

God would have to be a whole lot more ordered than our universe, to create such a universe.

---

Only reading some of our arguments does not invalidate our others, whatever you seem to think.

 

[Elenai]

God is a whole lot more ordered than our universe. He is Omnipotent. He does everything for a purpose. He is ordered.

I stand corrected, some of you are putting out some decent arguments. But not all of you. You havent disproven God...because you havent provided evidence that disproves him...and you cant because there is none. The same old arguments of cliche and jaded atheistic ideas is the consistency of your argument. Which is that I have not seen him,experienced his miracles, thus he isnt real, Over and Over again.

And God does miracles for all kinds of people. Just because people dont believe in him doesnt mean he doesnt love them, or help them.

 

[donut3.5]

Your arguments do not disprove mine. Your arguments are a sham. All your arguments boil down to this (from what I have seen). "God does not exist because I have not seen him."

That isnt a good argument.

My arguments are that a god exists because this universe is too ordered to have just happened by natural chance and that it took an intelligent creator to make it, and my belief is that God made it.

Gosh, maybe if you read through an unbiased lens you might see NEITHER of us have anything against the other.
Our argument is: We have not seen him, how do we know he's real?
Your argument: I have experienced what I believe is him, so I believe he's real.
Both of us are using the absence of knowledge to fill the whole and twist it towards our side.
However, when we say: We think he doesn't exist because we haven't seen him is like saying: I know my atomic bomb stored in my backyard doesn't exist because I haven't seen it. Or the dead body isn't in my closet because I haven't found it. I know there isn't a fly behind my computer because I just looked, and didn't see it.
One just has to accept some things do not exists, such as the bomb, dead body, and fly, because they have checked, and they aren't there. Back in the day, it was assumed Heaven was amongst the clouds. We checked, the only thing thats in them clouds are some water droplets, and if you want to get technical, a few other things. No pearly gates, no angels, no happy harps. So therefore, we can ONLY assume, not PROVE that heaven doesn't exist. and if Heaven doesn't exist, why should God be the one he's so commonly known to be? Once again, God may exist, we have just not proved so. It's like saying I assume that there is somewhere, there are 6 footed, 9 legged pigspiders that have descended from Mars that have buried themselves deep within an island cave which has not been explored yet, and I know they exist because we haven't proven them not to exist.
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

God is a whole lot more ordered than our universe. He is Omnipotent. He does everything for a purpose. He is ordered.

You just proved my point that it's more likely to have an innately ordered universe than an innately omnipotent being, yes?

And we haven't disproven him, but we've well defended our stance and why we think what we do, I would say.

 

[Elenai]

Donut: You among all of these has probably the most wisdom of any atheist here. But my argument is that to say that God does not exist because you cannot see him is like going up to a Christian and hitting them in the face. Because we have experienced too much of his being in ourlives to not believe.

We are not assuming that he exists...We have felt his presence and thus we know he exists.

And while we cannot prove that he exists...Atheists cannot prove he doesnt. But you do not feel a pigspider from mars, We do experience God.

It is like saying. that 99999999999999999999999 does not exist because I cannot count to it. But we know it exists because we know that numbers extend that high.

PurplePoot: It is more likley that DaVinci made an ordered painting, than for the Mona Lisa to have sprang from natural chance.

 

[Hakeem]

However, when we say: We think he doesn't exist because we haven't seen him is like saying: I know my atomic bomb stored in my backyard doesn't exist because I haven't seen it. Or the dead body isn't in my closet because I haven't found it. I know there isn't a fly behind my computer because I just looked, and didn't see it.

You can't check where god is though.

One just has to accept some things do not exists, such as the bomb, dead body, and fly, because they have checked, and they aren't there. Back in the day, it was assumed Heaven was amongst the clouds. We checked, the only thing thats in them clouds are some water droplets, and if you want to get technical, a few other things. No pearly gates, no angels, no happy harps. So therefore, we can ONLY assume, not PROVE that heaven doesn't exist. and if Heaven doesn't exist, why should God be the one he's so commonly known to be? Once again, God may exist, we have just not proved so. It's like saying I assume that there is somewhere, there are 6 footed, 9 legged pigspiders that have descended from Mars that have buried themselves deep within an island cave which has not been explored yet, and I know they exist because we haven't proven them not to exist.

You and a lot of other need to cut a finger off so that you remember to draw the line between religion and Christianity.

[empty]

/sign?

 

[donut3.5]

Actually more like saying infinity doesn't exist because we can't count to it, which is generally what God is supposed to be (infinity). However, we can't count to it. However, it is generally supposed to exist. So now what? Does something that is truly the bounds of infinity exist? As we might be able to comprehend a concept, we can't really say infinity exists or not. We may however, one day discover you just can't count any more. As ridiculous as it sounds, it hasn't been proven yet, thus sparking the idea of whether infinity (God) exists or not. This should be able to help link Poot's, the mathematician, and Elenai's, the Christians, views together, to make them understand each other's position.
EDIT: GASP! I forgot my signature in my last post! Many thanks Hakeem, you have saved me a lifetime of embarrassment.
EDIT2: Also Hakeem, it has apparent that over the last few pages, we have been discussing mostly about the Christian God, although others have been referenced.
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

Elenai, we don't know that god exists... I haven't felt his presence, my brother hasn't, my friends at school haven't, and so on.

Just because you think you have (you may have very well or you may be deceiving yourself, I don't know either way) does not automatically prove he exists.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

If god always was, why couldn't the universe always be?

 

[PurplePoot]

Exactly what we've been trying to say all along, Elenai.

 

[Elenai]

Perhaps so..But atleast for me. Experiencing him is good enough.

 

[Hakeem]

How can anything "always have been"? You can't just keep saying that matter came from other matter, it must have been created somehow, but from a world of nothingness, what would have triggered it? Does anyone have any idea at all? And keep in mind that nothingness leaves no evidence, so science can't help us here, only logic can.

If we can always count higher, then we can never prove that we can't count higher, because as we see it, we just might not have found the top yet. (I too have pondered numbers having limits. )

 

[PurplePoot]

That's the dilemma, Hakeem. I personally go with some mysterious event causing something from nothing, but I was just trying to show Elenai what we were getting at.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

How can anything "always have been"? You can't just keep saying that matter came from other matter, it must have been created somehow, but from a world of nothingness, what would have triggered it? Does anyone have any idea at all? And keep in mind that nothingness leaves no evidence, so science can't help us here, only logic can.

If we can always count higher, then we can never prove that we can't count higher, because as we see it, we just might not have found the top yet. (I too have pondered numbers having limits. )

In a world of nothingness, there would be nothing to trigger it. Therefore, in the beginning of time, there must have been something. Hence, it's just as likely that the universe had a circular existence. Furthermore, science and logic must coincide for our understanding to be complete. Science doesn't just mean "the study of everything we have right in front of us", otherwise we would not be saying that we know the look of a star light years away from us, even though we haven't even ventured on Mars before. Logic and science are intertwined as a single entity that is knowledge.

 

[Hakeem]

But how can our version of circular time exist while others do not?
If time is circular, then it's random that time is the way it is. Why would only our version exist?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

But how can our version of circular time exist while others do not?
If time is circular, then it's random that time is the way it is. Why would only our version exist?

How would you know that ours only exists? And infinity can be linear.

 

[Hakeem]

If circles of time other than ours exists, then that would mean external creation.

 

[Shados]

If circles of time other than ours exists, then that would mean external creation.

I'm sorry, what? You're jumping to some sort of conclusion here, why exactly does multiple universes with circular timespans require external creation? And how is that relevant? And Hakeem, you don't seem to understand that if a universe's time is circular, and that universe contains matter, then it has always contained matter.

-*meow*

 

[Hakeem]

I'm pretty sure I already posted an explanation, but anyway:
If multiple universes with circular time exist, then it would mean they coexist. Coexistence implies some greater world/dimension/universe/thingy. Then the question of the existence of the greater thingy comes into question.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I'm pretty sure I already posted an explanation, but anyway:
If multiple universes with circular time exist, then it would mean they coexist. Coexistence implies some greater world/dimension/universe/thingy. Then the question of the existence of the greater thingy comes into question.

Coexistence implies nothing. It just implies something coexists. Having a group of people does not imply that there is a leader.

 

[Hakeem]

No, but it implies they occupy something in common.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

No, but it implies they occupy something in common.

Yeah, existence. What does sharing common traits have to do with, uh, anything?

 

[JarrardKO]

God always was...He was never produced.

And that God made an ordered universe intelligently.

That universe is ordered because it was made to be ordered.

I lol'd. Then why do we have useless tail bones? Why do useless parasites exist?

Also, another thing about our 'intelligent creator' with the all knowing knowledge. If he really was all knowing, then why would he purposely put the tree near Eve and Adam, supposedely knowing they were going to eat it. I mean don't you think he would've smartly placed that tree 3,000 light years away from them if he didn't want anyone eating form it.. but no.. Pretty dumb ass move to put it right next to them if you ask me. Secondly, with his perfect knowledge, if he knew they were going to eat an apple, then why would he get mad? It's seems like he pissed himself off on purpose. Sounds like a pretty dumb ass thing to do..

I'll leave this with one of my fave quotes!

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is Malevonent.
Is he both able and willing then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

 

[Jualin]

This wont solve anything. Just want to make my opinion known. Note that this was made with the intent to be addressed to those who believe that some phenomena may be so odd as to have no other creator than a god possible. And also the ones that believe in the whole "heaven and hell" bit. Pass this on otherwise. I have little or nothing against you if you do not fit the above criteria.

Filibuster

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

True. By all definitions that is not god.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is Malevonent.

Religion takes a different viewpoint on this. One that I can simply detail with little typing is that such inaction fosters independence. But why then worship god? When you die you are in his power, the religion states. It cannot be proved. Where is this "after-life"? The subject is strangely silent, or else stating, "It's the third star on the left and straight on 'til morning." If we do find it in life, through a mistake or otherwise, the only clue we will have to its identity is, "You'll know it when you find it." This has not been added to in quite a few years. Are we to believe that all that has to do with this particular religion has all come and gone? Why would god, a god, any god take to silence for all this time? "God works in mysterious ways." Which ways? It can be said that there is something for admitting you just don't know. "God is all around us. Why, yesterday, this happened..."

Here is as close to a compromise as I can get. Feel free to either believe phenomena is the sole product of things supernatural, with all the good random things the sole creation of god, the god, there-is-no-other, all the bad things to either be the product of a spiteful god, the devil, people, or chance, all random things that hurt with one hand and help with the other to be a the product of god, people, the devil, or chance, and being forever "high" after you die or being the equivalent of an AIDS victim in this life after you die, OR you can believe that all phenomena is merely the effect of a large amount variables interacting with each other and creating things that don't even seem to have a remote chance of happening, but seem to anyway despite what you think, and that death will be the permanent end of you, no second chances at life after the fact, but no punishment or reward either.

Is he both able and willing then whence cometh evil?

True. By all accounts evil would be what this day and age is to smallpox.

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

True. The ability to as much is what defines god as it is known in Christianity.

 

[Elenai]

Man was given a choice in the Garden of Eden. Leave the tree alone and obey, or eat the fruit and die. Man chose death and sin. Thus he got the just punishment.

God can stop evil anytime he wants. But he has better plans. Read the "Book Of Job."

God is not Malevolent.

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
-He can prevent evil. But he chooses to let it happen so that he can turn the evil things that happen into blessings.-

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is Malevonent.
-See above.-

Is he both able and willing then whence cometh evil?
-Evil came from the Devil, and man's own disobedience. We doomed ourselves.-

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-He is able and he is willing. He will stop evil in the end of time. When the wheat is seperated from the tares and the Devil and his followers are thrown into Hell.-

And that tail bone is not useless. There are muscles attached to that bone that are apart of important functions.

And what useless parasites? Name some.

 

[PurplePoot]

Last time I checked I'm not dead, Elenai.

And a book written by some old fogies 2000 years ago doesn't really represent properly what defines this god -.-

Only an autobiography would do such a thing, yes?

 

[Elenai]

And 1000 years from now I suppose that a biography of Abraham Lincoln will be considered un-credible and wont properly define who he was? And the Book of Job gives ALOT of insight on the nature of God and the Devil.

And no you are not dead.

 

[PurplePoot]

Man was given a choice in the Garden of Eden. Leave the tree alone and obey, or eat the fruit and die. Man chose death and sin. Thus he got the just punishment.

And no you are not dead.

So what's this about?

And 1000 years from now I suppose that a biography of Abraham Lincoln will be considered un-credible and wont properly define who he was? And the Book of Job gives ALOT of insight on the nature of God and the Devil.

Last time I checked, the bible was supposedly written by a whole bunch of random people, according to Christians themselves. (Matthew, Mark, and so on)

 

[Elenai]

Last time I checked I'm not dead, Elenai.

And no you are not dead.

But to explain the fruit=death. The wages of sin is death, when they ate the fruit (which isnt an apple) they sinned and were doomed to die.

The bible was written by dilegent scribes and at times the biblical figures themselves. And even so, if it was a bunch of random people, it doesnt make the bible false. Nor does it make the Book Of Job any less credible.

 

[donut3.5]

On useless parts of the human body: Appendix ftw?
--donut3.5--

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

While we're at it, why have a pinky?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

While we're at it, why have a pinky?

Because it's cool?

 

[ankaboot]

Evolution is an argument for God's existence

Elenai: I know a lot about Evolution my friend.

Actually you don't. The theory of evolution tells us how God created us. It's really that simple.

The word "yom" in Hebrew, translated as "day" in English, does not mean a period of 24 hours or one rotation of the earth, it means a period of time without any indication of how long it is. The sun and moon were not created on the "first day" ~ so how long was that "first day"?

So Scripture says He created us in a "period of time" ("yom"). That period of time could be ~ and was literally ~ millions of years long. But Scripture does not tell us how He did that. Evolutionary theory does that.

Evolutionary theory is an argument for the existence of God, not an argument against His existence.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Elenai: I know a lot about Evolution my friend.

Actually you don't. The theory of evolution tells us how God created us. It's really that simple.

The word "yom" in Hebrew, translated as "day" in English, does not mean a period of 24 hours or one rotation of the earth, it means a period of time without any indication of how long it is. The sun and moon were not created on the "first day" ~ so how long was that "first day"?

So Scripture says He created us in a "period of time" ("yom"). That period of time could be ~ and was literally ~ millions of years long. But Scripture does not tell us how He did that. Evolutionary theory does that.

Evolutionary theory is an argument for the existence of God, not an argument against His existence.

Actually, that wouldn't exactly be an argument at all. That would be an elaboration.

 

[Elenai]

My good sir I never said that God created the universe in exactly six 24 hour days. I only said that God created us and that based on what I have researched and seen, The Hypothosis of Evolution (it is still a hypothosis technically) is wrong.

And Theistic Evolution is also inaccurate because God did not create a man Adam, as a race. He made Adam as a single "the first" human. Then he made his wife.

And yes I do know a lot about Evolution my friend. I have studied it.

But atleast I must consider this one small bit of happiness. At least you believe in God.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

[OFFTOPIC]

My good sir I never said that God created the universe in exactly six 24 hour days. I only said that God created us and that based on what I have researched and seen, The Hypothosis of Evolution (it is still a hypothosis technically) is wrong.

And Theistic Evolution is also inaccurate because God did not create a man Adam, as a race. He made Adam as a single "the first" human. Then he made his wife.

And yes I do know a lot about Evolution my friend. I have studied it.

But atleast I must consider this one small bit of happiness. At least you believe in God.

Post 1,000![/OFFTOPIC]
Also, many people believe the story of Adam and Eve was a metaphor, and furthermore, I believe you were the one who agreed with Ephy when he said though the Bible may have been the word of god, it has imperfections because it was written by the humans.

 

[Elenai]

Written by the hand of man. But the words are from God alone. The story of Adam and Eve is definately not a metaphor. Because later in the bible you have geneologies with Adam specifically being a person, not a race.

Show me these imperfections.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Written by the hand of man. But the words are from God alone. The story of Adam and Eve is definately not a metaphor. Because later in the bible you have geneologies with Adam specifically being a person, not a race.

Show me these imperfections.

You're the one who agreed when Ephy talked about it. Look it up yourself. I'm busy.

 

[Elenai]

Hold on...Now what about Teh-Ephy?

Look it up yourself?.....lol thats an intresting thing to say isnt it?

 

[PurplePoot]

So wait, god appeared before these people to tell them what to write?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

So wait, god appeared before these people to tell them what to write?

It is considered the word of god, so either that, or god wrote it down in an ink most divine and passed it on to everyone else.

 

[Elenai]

Of course God told them what to write. Thats why its called "divinely inspired".

 

[Jualin]

Unsurprising that this turned to other things than god. Unsurprising that I also became infuriated at another side of this topic. Might as well filibuster again and be done with it.

For now.

Fili

Divine inspiration. God. Deus-ex-machina for every believer.

It is, because it is, because it is. There is no other. It is a test of faith. It needs no proof. It is inherent. It is obvious. It is plain.

It is a religion that teaches subservience, meekness, and unsinkability. It's hard to condemn something that is as meek as a rabbit even when the mouths it spouts from calls for a lynching mob, although the circumstance can decidedly put you in contempt of the person.

Jesus Christ is not found in any of the records of the time he is supposed to have been traveling. Four records do use the word Christ, one even uses it in combination with Jesus, but that one has long been proven a forgery, and Christ means "The Anointed".

The fossil record seems to show evidence of creatures not of this era. "It's a test of faith." "They were planted by god." "They were a previous creation which he struck down as imperfect." Or maybe they are exactly what they appear to be. The remnants of an ancient order of life.

A majority of religions has one character which has a virgin birth on Dec. 25. Many of the same also share other things, such as miracles, age anointed, age of the beginning of their work, and resurrection. A number also share the 3 day period of time between death, also sometimes crucified, and resurrection.

Joseph in the same book also shares similarities with Jesus, such as the number of followers (12 brothers vs. 12 disciples) age anointed, and the age which he began his work. Couldn't it be considered that Joseph was a trial made before the Jesus story?

Everything is perfectly designed to have some function? Male boobs. Maybe life isn't made the way it is because the way it is is perfect. Maybe it just is.

Here's where I say goodbye for now. It is 11:00 PM and I'm tired to death and back.

 

[PurplePoot]

Ah, Elenai, but I was under the impression that god didn't present himself to people, and that they had to believe for themselves.

Also, are you saying that god promotes stoning of Homosexuals, Nonbelievers, People who work on Sunday, etc? Don't deny that that's in the bible... it is.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Hmm. St. Augustine's argument for God's benevolence and omniscience: Knowledge of an event's occurrence does not cause that event. God knows what's going to happen, but S/He doesn't go out and actively cause it.

It's a very sound argument until you throw omnipotence in, although I'm sure that there's an argument for that.

Actually you don't. The theory of evolution tells us how God created us. It's really that simple.

...

Evolutionary theory is an argument for the existence of God, not an argument against His existence.

Victoly! A winnar is you! +rep for attempting a reconciliation of science and western religion.

And Theistic Evolution is also inaccurate because God did not create a man Adam, as a race. He made Adam as a single "the first" human. Then he made his wife.

So... Adam and Eve are the first humans. When did God create the rest of humanity? Cain was afraid of being killed by other humans when he was banished to wander the earth, and he eventually fathered a bloodline of his own. Did those people (including Cain's wife) just magically appear?

 

[Hakeem]

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is Malevonent.
Is he both able and willing then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Able, but not willing. Call god what you want, just know that he made the words you call him. He made the whole cosmos, so he made evil too. And if you can't understand why he made evil, then you aren't fully human.

This wont solve anything. Just want to make my opinion known. Note that this was made with the intent to be addressed to those who believe that some phenomena may be so odd as to have no other creator than a god possible. And also the ones that believe in the whole "heaven and hell" bit. Pass this on otherwise. I have little or nothing against you if you do not fit the above criteria.

So you have something against people who believe in god, souls, or an afterlife?
That's why I said what I said a while back:

The only reason I believe in god now, is because I have come to that logical conclusion.

Where is this "after-life"? The subject is strangely silent, or else stating, "It's the third star on the left and straight on 'til morning." If we do find it in life, through a mistake or otherwise, the only clue we will have to its identity is, "You'll know it when you find it." This has not been added to in quite a few years.

God wouldn't put it in a place where we could get to it with any type of transportation. To think so is complete stupidity.

Are we to believe that all that has to do with this particular religion has all come and gone? Why would god, a god, any god take to silence for all this time?

To reiterate: God made evil on purpose.

"God works in mysterious ways." Which ways? It can be said that there is something for admitting you just don't know. "God is all around us. Why, yesterday, this happened..."

Other might not know, but I think you just don't care to figure it out.

Here is as close to a compromise as I can get. Feel free to either believe [...] no punishment or reward either.

Or you can be highly philosophical and come to the logical conclusion that god must exist.

I take back what I said, you don't need to cut off your fingers: You all need to saw off your legs so that you remember to draw the line between religion and Christianity.

 

[Elenai]

So... Adam and Eve are the first humans. When did God create the rest of humanity? Cain was afraid of being killed by other humans when he was banished to wander the earth, and he eventually fathered a bloodline of his own. Did those people (including Cain's wife) just magically appear?

Adam and Eve had daughters. And before you go into the whole "inscest" thing it had to be done, and God knew this. And the gene pool was perfect back then, slowly it has been decaying over time. So the inbreeding did not harm them.

And PurplePoot: God did present himself to people, He gave his word to the prophets and they inturn wrote it down, or had a scribe do it as they dictated. And yes the bible condemns homosexuality. But you are mistaken on the working on sunday part, and the Non-Believers part.

During the Old Testament, God had to keep the Jewish blood line pure and as sinless as possible. Homosexuality the bible says is an afront to God's design for man/woman relationships. And thus they were stoned for putting sin in the Hebrew scociety. People recieved harsh punishments during these times, because God did not want the Jews (his chosen people) To become sinful and un-pure like the kingdoms around them.

However the Sabbath is not on sunday. It is on Saturday, and the ten commandment law about not working on Saturday was given by God as an act of mercy, to give them a day to take a break and worship. The Pharasies took that law and added to it just like they did with many other Mosaic laws. Christ condemned them for this.

Non-Believers in the Old testament were killed, so that the Jewish line would remain pure, for the coming Christ. Now adays we are not to kill gays, or non-believers. But to give them the gospel and show them that there is a better way, and that they can turn from their sin.

And Julian: He is also called Jesus Christ, where "Christ" is a title derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christós), meaning the "Anointed One," which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived "Messiah". The name "Jesus" is an Anglicization of the Greek Ίησους (Iēsous), itself a Hellenization of the Hebrew יהושע (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua), meaning "YHWH is salvation".

Hakeem: I guess I could stop speaking about Christianity. But it would be really difficult to discuss God's existence without Christianity in it because thats the God I believe in.