Existence of God

[Hawk07]

Actually God (if he exists) doesn't allow evil happen. He can't stop it guys!

 

[JarrardKO]

But he is supposedly all powerful, possessing the ability to defy logic.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

You believe in God or you don't. You have to be shown (one way or the other), nobody can "prove" anything to you. Also, there are reasons to let evils happen, a reason known as the greater good. I have no idea how good the greater good is, but it's possible that God is working towards that, and not individual good. The few for the many.

 

[Elenai]

Has anyone ever noticed that the FSM looks alot like Cthun?

A good (probably the best) point of reference to why God allows evil to happen is found in the Book of Job.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Erh who? ~_~ Who's that?

 

[Elenai]

C'thulu, God, or Job?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Do you mean Cthulu? Also, yes.

 

[Elenai]

AHHHH yes...Cthulu is what I meant.

Thanks for the correction..The names are so similar.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

The names are so similar.

its lies!!! all lies!!!




so what did we all agree on in this debate then?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I think we agreed that you either believe in God or you don't, and that trying to prove Him/Her one way or another is stupid and an offense capable of incurring the offender negative reputation. I think.

 

[PurplePoot]

Neg rep for expressing an opinion? This site isn't fascist...

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Neg rep for thinking you can prove (or disprove) something commonly accepted to be unprovable (and undisprovable)... I'm sure it's completely alright to neg rep somebody for being an arrogant dumbfuck?

 

[donut3.5]

It would be negative reputation for explaining their opinion.
I could say a lot more, but I don't wish to continue in this highly flammable thread.
--donut3.5--

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Just explaining your position would be okay, I think, but that would be saying why God exists (or doesn't) for you, not for the whole world.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

It would be negative reputation for explaining their opinion.
I could say a lot more, but I don't wish to continue in this highly flammable thread.
--donut3.5--

It's no longer an opinion when you claim it to be fact, I believe Ephy is saying.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I loathe my sheer inability to adequately describe my position on such matters. Thanks, MSBB.

 

[Hakeem]

I think we agreed that 7 votes go unbacked.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

What should we debate about next? Factorizer sigs? They annoy the shit out of me because they're no longer original, but everyone's using them.

 

[JarrardKO]

God has a giant penis on his head because no one can prove he doesn't!

 

[Hawk07]

God is playing Need for Speed Carbon now. Tonight he will be going out with a gorgeous 20 years-old Indian girl (that's already dead) for dinner and then he will go to a bar and drink a huge glass of beer. He will then drive his Porsche and go back home. There he will have a cold shower and tommorow morning Need for Speed again. That's his life. Can you prove it isn't?

 

[PurplePoot]

Ephy, it's really still an opinion; if you can't actually prove it to be or not be a fact, then it's still an opinion whether you think it or not, yes?

Oh, and there were no "I can disprove it"s, as far as I know.

 

[I)eath2u4me]

Well, this is what i have learned, and it's true, also my opinion:
Religion, isn't it great? Religion is somehting we trun to to get us through life, and our troubles, somehting to use as a base for ourlives as well. I truely belivieve that God does exist, not because im catholic/christian, but because of miracles, and the will of humanity. Of course some people don't believe in god, but thats them. Like i said, religion is somehting humans use as a base for their lives, and for peace. But, if you believe in god, like me, you too will be a nice person and help others, and get to heavan (if there is one, and i think there is).

and please, dont neg rep me if i broke the threads "rules" since there are no rules in this thread other than the REAL HIVEWORKSHOP rule.

so if i "broke the thread rules", let me know, and ill change my post...mabey...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Ephy, it's really still an opinion; if you can't actually prove it to be or not be a fact, then it's still an opinion whether you think it or not, yes?

Ja, but to try to accept it as fact is just arrogant.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

My only problem with it is that you say its true. You mostly make up for it by admitting that there could be no heaven, even though you do believe there is.

 

[PurplePoot]

Death, I agree with you except that

A) Religion != peace for all. In fact, religion has probably caused way more wars than it's stopped.

B) Miracles/human will are proof that god exists; Miracles... depending on what you consider a miracle, I see no reason why they can't happen without a god, and as for human will, what does that have to do with god...?

 

[I)eath2u4me]

My only problem with it is that you say its true. You mostly make up for it by admitting that there could be no heaven, even though you do believe there is.

oh well lol, and purple poot, i kinda , uh, i dont know what i meant by human will lol

 

[Hawk07]

Ok only one question: Heaven for satanists is Hell right? But if they were good people, they'll go to heaven (i mean real heaven not hell). which is their hell, ok? So if you are a satanist and want to go to hell - which is their paradise, what shall you do? Be a bad guy? I need an explanation!!!

 

[JarrardKO]

Death, I agree with you except that

A) Religion != peace for all. In fact, religion has probably caused way more wars than it's stopped.

B) Miracles/human will are proof that god exists; Miracles... depending on what you consider a miracle, I see no reason why they can't happen without a god, and as for human will, what does that have to do with god...?

No such thing as a miracle. It's called a coincidence.

Oh wait, there was one. Here, I'll show you the story.

A 2 year old boy named Harrison Johnson, shown here with his friend Megan, was stung 432 times by wasps while the family was visiting church friends in Tampa, Florida. His parents asked neighborhood children and fellow church members to pray for him, but did not call for medical help until more than 7 hours after the attack.

What a miracle. This is proof that prayer works! /sarcasm.

EDIT: Oh and we don't have free will if God has a 'divine plan' for us. If our paths are planned by God, then we're not making our own choices now are we?

Another reason why I think all of religion is bs.

 

[Shados]

Why must a linear existence be true? As far as I can tell, it is logically impossible; something cannot come from nothing. Either nothing exists or existence is circular.

And seriously, due to no one proving or disproving a deity.... ever, the only two poll options I can respect are the middle ones.

-*meow*

 

[PurplePoot]

No such thing as a miracle. It's called a coincidence.

As I said

And seriously, due to no one proving or disproving a deity.... ever, the only two poll options I can respect are the middle ones.

The last one is still an opinion -.-

EDIT: Oh and we don't have free will if God has a 'divine plan' for us. If our paths are planned by God, then we're not making our own choices now are we?

Another reason why I think all of religion is bs.

Oddly enough, they manage to believe in free will on top of that -.-

 

[Elenai]

JarrardKO: miracles do happen. They most definately do.

Another thing, God says to pray but you need to put forth an effort also.

"A man is stuck on the roof during a flood and he prays for help, A boat floats along with a boy in it. The boy says "Get in". The man declines. "I'm waiting for an answer" he says. Then a tree floats by. The man declines to use the tree. Then a helicopter comes along. "Get in" a man in the helicopter shouts. "NO" says the man. "I'm waiting for God to send help." Then the man drowns and says to God. Why didnt you help me? And God says. I sent the boy in the boat, and you declined, I sent the tree and you did not float with it, I sent the helicopter and you refused to ride. You doomed yourself...."

The moral of the story, miracles happen. But you have to also put forth an effort. And miracles dont have to come in the form of a shining angel.

Miracles exist. Having experienced a few myself.

And the divine plans of God are not him making our choices for us. He gives us choices and we pick one. Thus we have free will. It's like a test. You have the free will to pick A,B,C,or,D But those are the choices given to you. Some choices you make are wrong some are right.

 

[PurplePoot]

JarrardKO: miracles do happen. They most definately do.

So what you're saying is that since 1% of the time something lucky happens, god granted it, and the other 99% was his will not to?

I'd call it Chance.

Another thing, God says to pray but you need to put forth an effort also.

"A man is stuck on the roof during a flood and he prays for help, A boat floats along with a boy in it. The boy says "Get in". The man declines. "I'm waiting for an answer" he says. Then a tree floats by. The man declines to use the tree. Then a helicopter comes along. "Get in" a man in the helicopter shouts. "NO" says the man. "I'm waiting for God to send help." Then the man drowns and says to God. Why didnt you help me? And God says. I sent the boy in the boat, and you declined, I sent the tree and you did not float with it, I sent the helicopter and you refused to ride. You doomed yourself...."

They did put forth an effort in praying, did they not? They even asked all their neighbors to help pray.

 

[Elenai]

Yah like chance can completely clean a woman's lungs of cancer and pneumonia making it like a childs lung fresh and unscared when the woman smoked for 35 years.

The point is you do what you need to and you also pray.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

Yah like chance can completely clean a woman's lungs of cancer and pneumonia making it like a childs lung fresh and unscared when the woman smoked for 35 years.

of course its possible to happen naturally, many things can happen naturally that would seem like miracles but can usually be explained. i think what most people look for is something that no human could do. something that would be impossible without some kind of divine interaction. otherwise we could claim me even getting up in the morning as a miracle or me taking this breath right now.....*me breathes in*.....not really that amazing.. for me a miracle would be something truly out of this world, like a meteor coming to hit us and then suddenly exploding with no explaination at the last second saving the world.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Yah like chance can completely clean a woman's lungs of cancer and pneumonia making it like a childs lung fresh and unscared when the woman smoked for 35 years.

The point is you do what you need to and you also pray.

Placebo effect actually. But if praying caused the placebo effect to become strong enough, God did it (whether or not God exists).

like a meteor coming to hit us and then suddenly exploding with no explaination at the last second saving the world.

That's called Bruce Willis and his crack team of expert oil-drillers.

 

[Elenai]

A placebo effect would most likley never be that strong. Especially when the woman was accepting death. Ironically this miracle also happened during the Christmas season, and after alot of people prayed.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

Placebo effect actually. But if praying caused the placebo effect to become strong enough, God did it (whether or not God exists).

this is correct, if a person has no religion and is gunna die and he goes to dr house and he heals him, isnt house playing the role of God? or if that same person prays to the God of whatever, say the God of telephone boxes and he gets better then wow!!! the telephone box God saved him. people have "miracles" performed on them all the time, its just what you choose to believe caused them to happen, science and technology or whatever diety you wished to pray to.

 

[PurplePoot]

A lot of people pray for a lot of things (especially people with cancer) and last time I checked, Elenai, a lot of people (Christians too!) still die of cancer all the time.

Just because you can pick out the one in a million and turn it into propaganda doesn't prove anything...

 

[Elenai]

Propaganda....nay. Testimony.....yes.

 

[PurplePoot]

Aight, fine.

So the propa... erm testimony of one in a million means god did it?

No, I think it means one in a million lived out of luck; cancer doesn't kill everyone.

(Figures not exact, I pulled "one in a million" out of my arse, but you know that it's low)

If millions of people prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, to Buddha, or to their kitchen utensils, the same thing would happen, yes?

Why? Because that one in a million didn't really have much to do with a higher being. It may have had to do with the placebo effect, but even so...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

What stumps me is how there is not a single deserving amputee. Why don't their arms just pop right back from the god?

 

[donut3.5]

Because people with regenerating limbs are burned at the stake for being witches. Even if the power would be granted by God or Satan, and there's no way to tell, sooo...
Guilty until proven innocent ftw!
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

God does many things for different reasons Spacebar, just like he Does'nt do many things for different reasons. Just because he doesnt give them back arms does not mean he does'nt do miracles. Or that miracles dont exist. He always has a plan and a reason for everything he does.

And one in a million is not even close to the number of miracles that occur. Every day has miracles. They dont allways come in a BEAM of bright holy shining light and imaculate chorus' with angelic wings spread about you. Alot of miracles are silent and subtle. Most are just too blind to see that God is working wonders around them. And a placebo effect is nigh worthless for curing major illnesses like lung cancer that has a very high death rate.

Gratitude is the shortest lived human emotion.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

God does many things for different reasons Spacebar, just like he Does'nt do many things for different reasons. Just because he doesnt give them back arms does not mean he does'nt do miracles. Or that miracles dont exist. He always has a plan and a reason for everything he does.

[rainbow]Congratulations! You have received your FREE medical miracle! [/rainbow]
Null and void if used to cure amputation

 

[PurplePoot]

God does many things for different reasons Spacebar, just like he Does'nt do many things for different reasons. Just because he doesnt give them back arms does not mean he does'nt do miracles. Or that miracles dont exist. He always has a plan and a reason for everything he does.

What is this, like the ultimate Christian comeback? "Because he chooses not to." Haven't heard that before...

And one in a million is not even close to the number of miracles that occur. Every day has miracles. They dont allways come in a BEAM of bright holy shining light and imaculate chorus' with angelic wings spread about you. Alot of miracles are silent and subtle. Most are just too blind to see that God is working wonders around them. And a placebo effect is nigh worthless for curing major illnesses like lung cancer that has a very high death rate.

Gratitude is the shortest lived human emotion.

Depends on what you consider a miracle.

[rainbow]Congratulations! You have received your FREE medical miracle! [/rainbow]
Null and void if used to cure amputation

[rainbow]Congratulations! You have received your FREE medical miracle! [/rainbow]
Null and void if used to perform medical miracles

Fixed

 

[Elenai]

You may have heard that many times before...but it doesnt mean that it is wrong.

Do not doubt the power of miracles. You have experienced some I am quite sure....you are probably just to blind to see it.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Do not doubt the power of miracles. You have experienced some I am quite sure....you are probably just to blind to see it.

The entire problem with "miracles" is that it's so easy to dismiss them as incredible coincidence or luck. It's not them being blind, it's that they don't subconsciously identify events of incredible coincidence or luck as a miracle, the way you may.

 

[PurplePoot]

You may have heard that many times before...but it doesnt mean that it is wrong.

It doesn't mean it's a good argument, either.

It's circular logic. You're saying god exists because of the existence of god.

Do not doubt the power of miracles. You have experienced some I am quite sure....you are probably just to blind to see it.

Start naming miracles. Then give me statistics as to what % of people they happen to.

If it happens to everyone (or almost everyone) who prays, and barely anyone who doesn't, I'll believe you.

 

[Elenai]

Give me statistics that show miracles and/or God does not exist. And I might believe you.

And statistics on daily miracles would be impossible to calculate and find. Because many are so subtle that they brush it off as a "Coincidence".

Is it circular logic to say, "God does not exist because of the hypothosis that God is non-existent"?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

You cannot disprove something, you can only prove its opposite. In the cases of both miracles and God, you can prove neither the object/concept nor its opposite. That's me telling you two to stop with this debate right now, because it will go nowhere until the thread is locked.

For the record, there is no empirical proof for either God or miracles. That is the basis on which all (worthwhile) suppositions of God's nonexistence are based on.