Zephyr Challenge #6

[Palaslayer]

7/10 is far too high.

ass?

 

[HINDYhat]

7/10 is far too high.

Awesomeness?

 

[Vosty]

7/10 is far too high.

This IS a coding competion, right?
Any way, thats awesome. If it's a coding competition, it should be judged by code.

 

[redscores]

Not true at all, a coding competition would be all about coding, but this is not, i have to say, we judge GUI and JASS the same, because it is the only fair thing which is existent... and if those JASS elitist jerks come now... gtfo and join wc3campaigns, we are no elitist jerks like those I hope, else I would quit thehiveworkshop, because then all hope will be lost... then you will be exactly like rising_dusk, bobo_the_kodo, and all those elitists....

 

[Vosty]

I am NOT an eletist. Trust me on taht one. I can sript Jass and vJass, but that doesn't make me good at it. =D
Anyway, I was told this is a coding competition, so quality of the code counts.

 

[HINDYhat]

I got an idea: Convert all GUI submissions to JASS and judge them based on that. That about evens the playing field for all submissions.

This is much more fair than judging GUI and Jass to be equal, BECAUSE THEY AREN'T.

[...] else I would quit thehiveworkshop

Then let's get this contest started!

[...] then you will be exactly like rising_dusk, bobo_the_kodo, and all those elitists....

Ooh ooh you forgot to mention me!

 

[Asomath]

Hm just waiting to see if my submission gets through

~Asomath

 

[Vosty]

This should get approved, but none of the moderators are lazy enough to just say it.

 

[Deuterium]

The problem is that Gilles isn't around anymore, so there's no one to accept this

About the GUI vs Jass, really just don't argue anymore.

I used to think that GUI & Jass should be judged equally in contests, but now that I've learnt Jass is see the difference.

Well yes they should be judged equally for all pointing sections except CODING. But not that different, I mean 7/10 for a well coded GUI is very fair, although if it's converted to Jass and judged as Jass, it won't get a 3/10

And why should it be that way? Those who know Jass have been learning for I don't know how many months (although I've seen new users learning Jass in a few days, it's really NOT THAT HARD) deserve to have this little fair advantage for the cost of their perfect coding work.

I'm not saying using GUI is useless, on the contrary, it's just as much of a coding language as Jass, but meh... it's really hard to treat them alike in a contest...

 

[Eccho]

Squiggy, Hawkwing, Ghan_04 and Hakeem has still control over the arena section d.d

 

[Vosty]

^^^
Time to contact them, and demand an answer.

 

[Saia_Djinn]

yeah i rly want to get this started
texturing and modeling contest come very often but we coders have nothing to fight out

 

[redscores]

HINDYhat, you are not a elitist... i think you are just a blown up guy who wants his own "rules" to be the rules which count (control freak maybe?).

 

[Deuterium]

redscores always scores rep bro!

 

[Palaslayer]

i dont know how many arguments and insults this thread has caused by now but you should not support them with rep, deut. at least dont say something like 'hey, i like what you said and i also think that guy is a damn dickhead so i give you repzors.'

it wont help you be taken more serious by admins...

 

[Jassu]

Whether or not you hate the people at WC3C, you have to admit that a lot of their contributions to JASS and Warcraft III are phenomenal. If it weren't for them, a lot of the maps that people play wouldn't be around. I can readily say DotA, but there's a lot of hate for that around here, too.

 

[redscores]

Where is my post insulting? i just said what I think he is.... not a single "insulting" word at all, just what I think.

I think telling someone that he is blown up... is not a insult, more of a statement... or am I wrong?

(check my post... everywhere "I think"-phrases... which shows that it is what I think...)

 

[Vosty]

Whether or not you hate the people at WC3C, you have to admit that a lot of their contributions to JASS and Warcraft III are phenomenal. If it weren't for them, a lot of the maps that people play wouldn't be around. I can readily say DotA, but there's a lot of hate for that around here, too.

Did you know Dota is VERY poorly coded? Icefrog (a.k.a. Dickhead) was still using H2I after 1.24. He also lets leaks slip quite often in his code.
Approve this? I'll go to moderator contact!

 

[Jassu]

Did you know Dota is VERY poorly coded? Icefrog (a.k.a. Dickhead) was still using H2I after 1.24. He also lets leaks slip quite often in his code.
Approve this? I'll go to moderator contact!

It uses the HashTable system, you mean.

Point is, we wouldn't have vJASS. We wouldn't have had handle vars. None of the systems and such that we have now would exist without the people at WC3C. The unsubstantiated disliking of them isn't desirable material to post about.

 

[HINDYhat]

HINDYhat, you are not a elitist... i think you are just a blown up guy who wants his own "rules" to be the rules which count (control freak maybe?).

... Of course I want my rules to be the rules which count. Who the fuck would think up some rules and then not want them to be applied? Hell, even you want your ideals of GUIers roaming free through the fields with the evil socialist Wc3C elitists imprisoned forever. It's not called being a control freak. It's called sticking up for your ideas.

I think that you are a stubborn, idiotic, internet tough-guy and that you are wrong in everything that you say. But that's just what I think, so it doesn't count right? It's just a statement.

redscores always scores rep bro!

Thank you for your priceless contribution.

APPROOOOOOOOOVE THIIIIIS.

 

[Vosty]

It uses the HashTable system, you mean.

Point is, we wouldn't have vJASS. We wouldn't have had handle vars. None of the systems and such that we have now would exist without the people at WC3C. The unsubstantiated disliking of them isn't desirable material to post about.

No it uses some (small amount, naked to the human eye. He just started with it, and he has no idea how to use it.) hashtable, but the coding still really sucks ass.

I do love what the guys at wc3c do, just don't relate them to Dota. They have nothing to do with dota.
How much money are you gonna put that someone makes Galazy OOP if blizz doesn't?

 

[Jassu]

No it uses some (small amount, naked to the human eye. He just started with it, and he has no idea how to use it.) hashtable, but the coding still really sucks ass.

I do love what the guys at wc3c do, just don't relate them to Dota. They have nothing to do with dota.
How much money are you gonna put that someone makes Galazy OOP if blizz doesn't?

You're claiming to have the unprotected (not deprotected) version of DotA Allstars 6.64? I'm pretty sure you don't. And I don't need to explain my reasoning for how the WC3C people are related to the coding DotA uses. If you can't figure it out yourself, then you shouldn't be posting here.

 

[Vosty]

NO!
I had Deprotected (I did it myself) version of Dota Allstars 6.62, right after 1.24 patch.
It was as I said. And it didn't look very vJass-y to me.

 

[maskedpoptart]

NO!
I had Deprotected (I did it myself) version of Dota Allstars 6.62, right after 1.24 patch.
It was as I said. And it didn't look very vJass-y to me.

Uh, if Dota was protected with Vex's map optimizer, and you managed to deprotect it, all you would be able to see is the crappy hard-to-understand Jass code that was compiled from the vJass code...

 

[Element of Water]

Plus, vex's optimizer changes the names of all the functions and variable to just plain random things, and it takes out the comments, and unnecessary whitespace (such as indenting). Basically, even if you did get a deprotected version, you wouldn't be able to find anything by looking at the code...

 

[Bantas]

you wouldn't be able to find anything by looking at the code...

He would. vJass allows globals declaration anywhere in the map, but Jass doesn't. Structs also uses tons and tons of array globals. So with a deprotected version of the map, he would be able to tell if the guy uses vJass by the number of globals, array globals, and functions that look like that :

function DummyId takes nothing returns integer
return 'h0B3'
endfunction

Which could be obviously be replaced with a global. A constant one.

 

[Element of Water]

A) Sure, vJass allows globals to be declared anywhere in the map, but they're all sent to the start of the script when it's compiled.

B) All the variables are renamed randomly, like I said, and also, he may not have used structs, but just used other features of vJass. In addition, I have seen many maps with lots of array globals used in GUI indexing systems, for example.

C) Why would there be lots of function like that???

 

[Jassu]

The map is protected with Vexorian's optimizer (I believe IceFrog credits Vex for that in the quest log). If you deprotect it, you can't really make heads or tails of anything.

My original statement stands: Unless you have the unprotected (not deprotected) version of DotA, you really don't know what kind of code he uses.

 

[HINDYhat]

It takes some time, but it's actually fairly easy to make out obfuscated vJass. I know I've done it before.

There's a difference between disorganized/unclear code and inefficient code. You could still very clearly distinguish inefficiency even after a map's script has been raped by the optimizer and the vJass compiler. Compiling vJass doesn't magically introduce inefficiency in your code.

That being said, I have no idea whether or not DotA is badly coded. I doubt it is.

 

[Vosty]

Ask Hawking. He'll also tell you that is is poorly coded.

Just because it has wierd variable names and wierd function names doesn't mean that it can't be read.
A) I was using notepad to view it, so I could use "text replace" on all the globals, to give them simple names like int1 and int2, until I figured out what some shit did.
B} I am a bit smarter than you take me for (Even though I may do some dumb things) , and can still find leaks in his unreasonably long lines of codes, after the varaibles are renamed.
C) I didn't just open it and sit there. I spent hours of time (wasted) recording some of what I saw, (The main point being that this retard continued to code with H2I after 1.24 until he realized how to code without it. And he still used gamecache.) to prove to another non-believer why Icefrog isn't a coder.

It takes some time, but it's actually fairly easy to make out obfuscated vJass. I know I've done it before.

Thank you, HINDY, for proving my point.
I haven't seen the newest version of Dota yet (Because I don't feel like cracking another map.) but the version I had spoke for itself.

 

[Deuterium]

Just one little question... why make such a big deal out of this? Whether it leaks or not, whether it has some faults or not... the map works totally fine. I mean, anyone trying to code a 50,000+ lines of code would miss a few things or have some errors.

Over all that, you can't judge on a map unless you have the ORIGINAL CODE! I don't care how much you worked on the cracked version to make it readable, it would be nowhere close to the original...

I'm not trying to be mean or anything btw

 

[maskedpoptart]

The main point being that this retard continued to code with H2I after 1.24 until he realized how to code without it.

I still don't understand how the f*** you can use unsafe typecasting (H2I) after 1.24. Warcraft doesn't even let you test the map or host it if you use it. If you try to test the map in JNGP, for example, it would go to the wc3 main menu instead of the map loading screen. I highly doubt IceFrog would be stupid enough to release a map he couldn't even test.

By the way, H2I, or rather its new native equivalent GetHandleId, is a very useful function. I use it a lot even with structs. Who cares if he was still using gamecache? He started the map many years ago, before there was a better way of doing things. Now that the map has exploded in proportion, do you think it would be easy to recode the entire map to make it more efficient? As far as the leaks go, he should probably fix them...

 

[Vosty]

Just one little question... why make such a big deal out of this? Whether it leaks or not, whether it has some faults or not... the map works totally fine. I mean, anyone trying to code a 50,000+ lines of code would miss a few things or have some errors.

Over all that, you can't judge on a map unless you have the ORIGINAL CODE! I don't care how much you worked on the cracked version to make it readable, it would be nowhere close to the original...

I'm not trying to be mean or anything btw

I know people make mistakes, but many people make Icefrog out to be some kind of god. I'm just trying to say he isn't perfect, adn he really screwed up there.
Yes, it is hard to judge unless you know what he was trying to do.
I made a thread in Moderator Contact, so this should be noticed somewhat. Maybe you guys could help by doing the same.

 

[Asomath]

Waiting...waiting...waiting.

Glad the arguments over

~Asomath

 

[Hanky]

I guess this contest can be started. I'll host it...

 

[Element of Water]

NOOO. We're in the middle of the WC3C Hero Contest!!!!! I can't do 2 at once!!!!!

 

[Pyritie]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/arena-226/zephyr-challenge-6-a-149123/