Zephyr Contest #11

[TriggerHappy]

Zephyr Contest #11

-no theme yet-

• No submission may violate any of the site rules.
• If a submission does not follow the spell submission rules the creator will be disqualified.
• All submissions must follow the current theme.
• Your submission must be posted before the deadline. The post containing your final submission must also contain the following:
  
  
  • An in game screenshot showing your submission in action.
  • The file in the appropriate format.
  
  
• You must show at least one unfinished preview of your submission, before the deadline, as proof that it’s yours.
• Your submission may not be started/made before the official launch of the contest.
• Judges may not participate.
• Teamwork is not allowed (Finding testers to help you with your submission is not considered teamwork).
• Imports may be used in the map, however they must all be credited.
• Either GUI or (v)JASS may be used to create your spell; you will not be penalized if you use GUI over (v)JASS.
• Spells must be able to be cast by any amount of units at any one time. (Otherwise known as "MUI")
• The only third party tools allowed (that the judges would be required to have) are Jass New Gen Pack and JassHelper. This means extensions like cjass and wurst are not allowed.
• Tools which extend game functionality but are included in JNGP may not be used (RtC, SharpCraft ect..).

• First Place: 45 reputation points and your entry on the award icon
  
• Second Place: 30 reputation points and an award icon
  
• Third Place: 15 reputation points and an award icon

• -open-
• -open-

• 80% of the winner shall be determined by the contest's appointed judge(s).
• 20% of the winner shall be determined by the results of a public poll.

Originality	How creatively was the ability executed?	/15
Coding	Is the skill bug free, leakless? Does it support multiple instances? Is there any documentation and is it easily configurable?	/15
Visuals	How does the skill look? Is it too overloaded with special effects?	/10
Aesthetics	How is the description? Are all the tooltips setup correctly? Do they fit the theme?	/10

• The contest shall begin on ~undecided~ and conclude on ~undecided~, GMT

 

[TriggerHappy]

Lets discuss the theme. I was thinking Aura or Mechanical-esque type spells.

I'm also available for judging if we can't find anyone, however I'd like to participate.

 

[Adiktuz]

oooh... Aura might be interesting

 

[PurgeandFire]

Both are pretty cool topics. I'm leaning towards auras because I haven't seen them done as often.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Anyone else?

 

[Magtheridon96]

Let's take the theme in a different direction.

How about Seduction? ;-)

I could imagine very complex spells that play mind games on your enemy. c:

 

[Kyrbi0]

Cool!

[*]Either GUI or (v)JASS may be used to create your spell;

Awexome...

...you will not be penalized if you use GUI over (v)JASS.

But before I get too invested in this, I'd like to determine exactly how this will be accomplished. I've been burned before in contests claiming "we accept GUI" but where the judging or voting criteria involved things that only apply towards/pre-dispose towards JASS, putting me at a disadvantage. :<

~~~

My biggest complaint from the last one & thus for this one is that we really hammer out a nice, broad & interesting theme from the get-go. Last time, getting burned because my "teleport" spell didn't contain a "portal" specifically... Eh.
That being said, I wish I could think of a good theme. So far Aura is pretty neat, as well as "Mind Games" from Magtheridon (a bit more broad & open than "Seduction", IMO).

 

[TriggerHappy]

But before I get too invested in this, I'd like to determine exactly how this will be accomplished. I've been burned before in contests claiming "we accept GUI" but where the judging or voting criteria involved things that only apply towards/pre-dispose towards JASS, putting me at a disadvantage. :<

The judge would simply have to grade it as if JASS didn't exist, aside from leak removal and minor custom scripts.

 

[Tank-Commander]

Aura theme is sounding pretty good to me - Have a few ideas for auras I never got around to doing though I'd probably come up with something new with a bit of a unique take on it instead of those ideas, given time.

For piece of mind, I assume "Aura" would basically translate to "AOE Passive centred around the hero" (which would then include things like every x seconds have y effect in the area) or keeping it strictly to always-in-effect creations?

 

[TriggerHappy]

For piece of mind, I assume "Aura" would basically translate to "AOE Passive centred around the hero" (which would then include things like every x seconds have y effect in the area) or keeping it strictly to always-in-effect creations?

Yeah, that should be fine.

 

[BPower]

I can judge.

Auras are a really cool topic especially because we don't have many of them.
However proper aura handling itself is quite difficult and might frighten members with great ideas but so-so coding skills. GUIer's can't base their submission on AuraStruct and UnitInRangeEvent which could be a big handycap.
I'm still a big fan of this idea.

Seduction, oh Mag ... computer games are not sexy. However manipulation between units of any kind is also a really nice idea.

For the sake of fairness a neat and clean GUI code will be as valuable as its JASS/vJass counterpart.

Advanced artificial intelligence that would be my favorite, but at a certain points that's literally not possible in GUI and would be rather a system then a spell.

Of course I would also like to participate

 

[Kyrbi0]

Auras are a really cool topic especially because we don't have many of them.
However proper aura handling itself is quite difficult and might frighten members with great ideas but so-so coding skills. GUIer's can't base their submission on AuraStruct and UnitInRangeEvent which could be a big handycap.
I'm still a big fan of this idea.

I suppose as long as we don't penalize GUI users for using an existing Aura as a base (despite the non-ability of buffs to stack), that's OK.
(Also, fellow GUIers, remember that the Tornado - Slow Aura is a handy ability which leaves no buff on it's target).

For the sake of fairness a neat and clean GUI code will be as valuable as its JASS/vJass counterpart.

Hum. Well that's all well and good, hopefully. However, think in terms of actual criteria; "portability" could make a lot of sense for (v)JASS, yet for a highly Object-Edited/GUI spell, one runs into issues of perspective (in my mind, it's easier to copy/paste some abilities in the right order & then the associated triggers; for others, that's a pain).

 

[TriggerHappy]

Anyone else wanna judge?

 

[Almia]

I'll support.

Yes, Auras are nice, though we have to decide if it is passive or not, because it would be advantageous for the ability.

Oooh, if only I have a Warcraft 3 here....T_T...I could have judged the contestants.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'll support.

Yes, Auras are nice, though we have to decide if it is passive or not, because it would be advantageous for the ability.

Oooh, if only I have a Warcraft 3 here....T_T...I could have judged the contestants.

Doesn't Aura = Passive?...

 

[Adiktuz]

you can still make an activated aura (like for example it drains resource as long as the aura is active, or it stays for only a set amount of time after activation)... I guess that counts as "active" and still an aura

 

[Bannar]

I suppose as long as we don't penalize GUI users for using an existing Aura as a base (despite the non-ability of buffs to stack), that's OK.
(Also, fellow GUIers, remember that the Tornado - Slow Aura is a handy ability which leaves no buff on it's target).

You could use mine Timed Ability/Stack for GUI-ers. It's really simple, made for stacking given effects, like armor penality and such. Requires object editor stuff and relies on max lvl of given "stacking-ability" which in mine opinion are easier to understand for desired recipients. You can always create your own code/GUI script based on such examples.

In regard to topic: aura seems to be a fine theme.

 

[Kyrbi0]

you can still make an activated aura (like for example it drains resource as long as the aura is active, or it stays for only a set amount of time after activation)... I guess that counts as "active" and still an aura

I suppose that's true.

You could use mine Timed Ability/Stack for GUI-ers. It's really simple, made for stacking given effects, like armor penality and such. Requires object editor stuff and relies on max lvl of given "stacking-ability" which in mine opinion are easier to understand for desired recipients. You can always create your own code/GUI script based on such examples.

I read your submission and I'm not sure I understand... So you have a system that allows you to (say for example) create a custom Aura based off of (let's say) Endurance Aura to give only +Movespeed to friendly units ("Alacrity Aura")... And it would stack correctly with the regular in-game "Endurance Aura"? As far as I've seen, only Anitarf's ABuff does that.

 

[Bannar]

It's not Aura-system, nor Buff handler. It just allows one to simply stack effects based on ability lvl for GUI-ers (-1 armor / per stack; +5dmg per stack (...) ). In regard to standard auras, it could allow to dynamically change it's lvl yet as I've said, it doesn't handle Buffs id est would not allow 2x Endurance auras to stack with each other. Let's drop subject here, it's not topic where we discuss resources.

 

[Kyrbi0]

... Let's drop subject here, it's not topic where we discuss resources.

No, but we're not discussing resources, so much as discussing potential tools for people to use in this particular contest, so it's on-topic. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Adiktuz]

Aura's stack even if from the same base ability... just not with itself.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Aura's stack even if from the same base ability... just not with itself.

Um... Well I'll admit it's been a while since I seriously cracked open the WE, but I've been under the impression that no buffs in the game can be stacked successfully when based upon each other (i.e. a custom modified "Inner Fire" ability won't stack with Inner Fire; a custom modified "Unholy Aura" won't stack with the regular Unholy Aura; etc). Kinda one of the big problems of vJASS-less modding/Blizzard hardcoding.

 

[Adiktuz]

Normal buffs don't... but Aura buffs does... XD...

 

[Rheiko]

Let's take the theme in a different direction.

How about Seduction? ;-)

I could imagine very complex spells that play mind games on your enemy. c:

i approve of this

 

[Bannar]

I guess 3 years break from playing wc3 makes the difference. Lol.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Normal buffs don't... but Aura buffs does... XD...

!!!
I just did a quick test, maxing out Unholy Aura, a modified Unholy Aura (speeding up friendlies), Tornado Slow Aura, a modified Tornado Slow Aura (speeding up friendlies)... And holy cow it works. Now, the colors are off (green and red text). I had no idea; I guess I always assumed that the Buff system was messed up for *everything*.

I'll have to do some more testing, but maaaan.

I guess 3 years break from playing wc3 makes the difference. Lol.

Who, me? I only took a 2-year hiatus (if you're looking through my Wc3C-profile, specifically).

 

[Bannar]

Lol, how would I even guess how long have you not been playing wc3? Of course was speaking for myself.

 

[BPower]

Any other ideas? I want to remind you that proper aura handling is not so easy.
For instance if two auras of the same type overlap, it should apply the higher leveled or both if intended.
Not a big deal for me, as I'm only judging .

 

[TriggerHappy]

So should we decide on a start and end date?

Anyone else up for judging? I really wanna participate.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

I might be willing to judge. Depends on the end date.

 

[muzzel]

The only third party tools allowed (that the judges would be required to have) are Jass New Gen Pack and JassHelper. This means extensions like cjass and wurst are not allowed.

Grow up already >.<

Also i cant find an explanation what this contest is about. Models? Skins? Spells? Heroes? Items? If i had to guess id say spells.. but my crystal ball is broken so it would probably be a good idea to mention that in the first post.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Grow up already >.<

oh yeah were so immature because wurst isn't allowed

Also i cant find an explanation what this contest is about. Models? Skins? Spells? Heroes? Items? If i had to guess id say spells.. but my crystal ball is broken so it would probably be a good idea to mention that in the first post.

spells

 

[Kingz]

Here are some ideas:

*Combo spells - Design spells which can have multiple effects based on their cast order, for example:

Hidden

Gust of Wind - Causes an air implosion. Deals moderate damage, closes in nearby units.
Incineration - Sets the target ground on fire dealing small amount of damage over medium time.
Spike traps - Lays down spike traps randomly at the target field which stun a unit and deals moderate damage.

Incineration + Gust of Wind -> Flame Implosion, removes ground flame
Spike Traps + Gust of Wind -> Pulls out the traps toward the center of Gust of Wind dealing damage as they pass through units.
Incineration + Spike traps -> Traps explode upon hitting the ground causing small spikes to burst in all directions

*Blood Magic - The spell cripples the caster, be it health reduction, health regeneration, move speed, banishment, etc.

*Increasing Power - Spell increases in power with multiple frequent casts, be it damage, duration, debuff strength, buff strength, change in spell effect, etc

*Diminishing returns - Opposite of Increasing Power

*Lucky - Spells have a luck effect attached to them, producing stronger/weaker or different effects on random.

I doubt i will have time to participate but here is some food for thought.

 

[muzzel]

Also i cant find an explanation what this contest is about. Models? Skins? Spells? Heroes? Items? If i had to guess id say spells.. but my crystal ball is broken so it would probably be a good idea to mention that in the first post.

spells

Again, grow up! I obviously dont care what this contest is about, my post was a rather insistent demant that this information belongs into the first post.

 

[Tank-Commander]

I don't quite follow the insistance to grow up, in any rate the zephyr contest is pretty well established, prehaps specifically the note of being a spell contest yes should be at the front (though it's already implied by mentioning things fairly exlusively in relation to spell making in terms of judging e.g. "Spells must be MUI")

Eitherway, On the topic of dates, depending on the headcount, will probably be not for quite some time - exam season is coming up again after all which may put some of the contestants out of action for it

 

[Bannar]

Even though I was out of wc3 and hive for about 2 years or so and bked lately, I dont see any reason not to allow Wurst to be used by contestant within such contest. I've been looking into this extension and it seems fine - a nice alternative. I just dont know why you call language a sausage but thats about it.
Meaby I shouldnt ask here, but have cJass been fixed already? It was always promised to be working with next patch, then the next patch after and then another >.>

Such contests are not about language you use, it's more about ur creativity and workflow.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

Even though I was out of wc3 and hive for about 2 years or so and bked lately, I dont see any reason not to allow Wurst to be used by contestant within such contest. I've been looking into this extension and it seems fine - a nice alternative. I just dont know why you call language a sausage but thats about it.
Meaby I shouldnt ask here, but have cJass been fixed already? It was always promised to be working with next path, then the next patch and then another after >.>

Such contests are not about language you use, it's more about ur creativity and workflow.

I'd love to see a stronger integration with the wurst community at THW, but the zephyr contest has historically been a contest that judges with strong weighting with respect to code efficiency (aka we're speedfreaks)

Wurst provides many abstractions that pre-process to less than adequate performance, and although there are many arguments as to why that should be allowed, it would be unfair to wurst participants and difficult for judges to provide fairness to all candidates.

If a wurst coder provides an MUI spell in 15 lines of wurst that compiles to 100 lines of jass but breaks the virtual thread operation limit at 20 instances and a vJass user writes a similar MUI spell in 200 lines of vJass that's harder to read but op-limits at 200 instances, one could argue about which implementation is better.

Again, the zephyr contest is highly weighted with respect to performance and spells should fit the requirements of the existing spells section.

I would love to see more THW contests, some with judgment weighting more related to creativity and software engineering, but zephyr is far from that.

If wurst candidates are allowed to submit I would not feel comfortable judging this zephyr.

 

[muzzel]

in any rate the zephyr contest is pretty well established

Invalid argument as you should try to motivate new users to participate.

(though it's already implied by mentioning things fairly exlusively in relation to spell making in terms of judging e.g. "Spells must be MUI")

These quotes are the reason why i said grow up. This should OBVIOUSLY be explicitely stated, and you know it. Insisting on stupid things just to be right is childish.

@Coke: i think the main problem is that the usual judges dont know wurst and hence would be unable to rate wurst submissions. Sure some people (e.g. nestharus) claim to know wurst, but as long as they dont use it themselves they cant possibly rate the quality of a wurst submission.

About the performance: I agree some features of wurst dont provide the performance of their respective vjass implementations, but these are theoretical differences and not of significant quantity. However wurst is somewhat less transparent than vjass which makes it harder to rate the performance of a wurst spell.

I think the main problem here are the judges.

About the focus on performance:

Originality	How creatively was the ability executed?	/15
Coding	Is the skill bug free, leakless? Does it support multiple instances? Is there any documentation and is it easily configurable?	/15
Visuals	How does the skill look? Is it too overloaded with special effects?	/10
Aesthetics	How is the description? Are all the tooltips setup correctly? Do they fit the theme?	/10

I dont see anything related here Just says "leakless, bug free, MUI, configurable". Looks more like focus on good ideas, visual, creativity, ...

 

[Cokemonkey11]

I think the main problem is your attitude and the second biggest problem is that zephyr is a well established speedfreak contest. if you want to have a contest that focuses on good software engineering, go and propose one in the contest submissions forum.

I don't use wurst but I know well enough how it's implemented to comment on the performance of wurst code. regardless, another judge could just look at the map script or use good judgment about how some wurst feature *should* be implemented.

as long as the spells section doesn't have room for wurst, neither will zephyr.

also, the theory vs practice argument isn't good enough when I myself have produced mui speed freak content in vjass that op limits at sub-100 instances. the importance of performance in Jass is very real and very tangible, and this contest highlights that. you're only putting yourself at an unfair disadvantage by asking for this

edit : actually, after giving this some more thought, I've realized that the biggest paradigm of zephyr is not efficiency, but rapid release. zephyr is supposed to be the "fast" contest, and wurst highlights that. maybe really allowing wurst should be considered.

sent via mobile

 

[muzzel]

Im not asking you to change the contest, if there are participants it means that people like it how it is, which is a good thing. Im just asking you to put this information in the first post.
About wurst, when i was suggesting that wurst should be allowed i didnt know this is a pure speedfreak contest (again, because its not mentioned anywhere). It looks more like a normal spellcontest where allowing wurst submissions would make sense.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I didn't know these things were about "speed" or "efficiency" in coding... If I knew that I wouldn't bother entering, since I basically don't code. I thought this was more like a "spells" contest, emphasizing good ideas. :<

But hey, that's just me.

 

[Magtheridon96]

Then code a great spell and see what you can do to clean the code and make it run at least 10 simultaneous instances with minimal lag.

 

[Kingz]

Then code a great spell and see what you can do to clean the code and make it run at least 10 simultaneous instances with minimal lag.

I do not think the last Zephyr winner could claim this, considering the amount of effects created with that spell.
Ergo the standard is invalid since it's vague what the "lag" stands for.

 

[Bannar]

Yeah, something in regard to effects might be added. Ultra flash-light spam is not remotely eye-candy. Just open wc3 and play The World ORPG. Shit shits on shit there.

And in regard to amount of instances: its highly spell-type dependant and in most cases (ORPGs/AoS including DotA) 16 (amount of players) is more than enough.

One more thing. Guys, please, don't warp this threat into pro/against - wurst thread. There are only manly man here thus some kind of poll might be all we need to solve the problem.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

And in regard to amount of instances: its highly spell-type dependant and in most cases (ORPGs/AoS including DotA) 16 (amount of players) is more than enough.

If I'm judging your map and your spell lags at just 16 instances, you better have a damn good reason or you're getting a big fat zero

 

[Bannar]

You probably omited that I was talking about "great spell" i.e. amount of operations. One nature spell comes to my mind, where guy created tentacles (as aform of roots) from doodands (bushes) and signle instance could excess 100 doods easily. Effect was great nonetheless.
Code, you are approaching this discussion from wrong side; or you are just horribly sceptical.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

You can't dynamically create doodads, they're baked into the terrain.

 

[Bannar]

Then those were destructables, who cares?

 

[Kyrbi0]

So... Poll?

 

[BPower]

If we reach the agreement to allow Wurst I have to know it in time, because I never had the pleasure using Wurst. I sure ate a lot of them .

By now I only scanned the manual, so I have to work myself into it first.