Zephyr Challenge #6

[Asomath]

Personal Note: Well, it's been about a year (one year and four days to be exact) since the last Zephyr challenge was submitted, and I think there are spell makers who would desire another one. I looked over all the previous topics, and originally decided on Area of Effect spells. Then I decided that the topic was WAY too broad, so I narrowed it down to the current theme, which is interesting and has, what I believe, potential. This is my first contest suggestion submission.

Zephyr Challenge #6
Contest Theme: AOE Summon


Description: Contestants must create a spell that affects a certain area, either targeted or on a specific unit. Sometime during the duration of the spell, a unit (or units) must be spawned for an amount of time.

Blizzard-made Examples:
1. Rain of Chaos (Spawns units in a targeted area)
2. Reanimate (Turns corpses into summoned units around the caster)
3. Locust Swarm (Summons tiny locusts that buzz around the caster attacking enemies)

Note: The classifying definition for a unit would be any entity that affects game-play on its own. This does not just mean attacking. So, if you wanted to create a spell called "Flower Garden" that spawns flowers in an area, and that attracts enemy units to it to smell the flowers; as long as each flower has the ability to attract units to it, than it would be classified as a summoned unit.

Contest Rules And Conditions

• 
  
  Contest Specifics:
• Spawned units must last for AT LEAST a duration of 5 seconds
• Only ONE submission is permitted for this contest
  
  Usual Rules:
• No submission may violate any of the site rules.
• If a submission does not follow the spell submission rules the creator will be disqualified.
• All submissions must follow the current theme. If any model does not fit, a moderator will tell you as soon as possible as to avoid confusion.
• Your submission must be posted before the deadline. The post containing your final submission must also contain the following:
  • An in game screenshot showing your submission in action.
  • The file in the appropriate format.
• You must show at least one unfinished preview of your submission, before the deadline, as proof that it’s yours.
• Your submission may not be started/made before the official launch of the contest.
• Judges and/or hosts may not participate.
• Your final submission must be bug free.
• Teamwork is not allowed.
  • Finding testers to help you with your submission is not considered teamwork.
• Imports may be used in the map, however they must all be credited.
• Either GUI or JASS may be used to create your spell; you will not be penalized if you use GUI over JASS.
• Spells must be able to be cast by at least one unit per player at any one time. (Otherwise known as "MPI")
• Third party editors may be used in the creation of your spell, but you must clearly state which editor you used to create the map. If a third party editor is necessary to use your spell, add a link, along with your spell submission, to download the editor.
  
  Examples of third party editors are:
  • World Editor Unlimited
  • JassNewGenPack (or Grimoire)
  • UMSWE
• You may use utilities that do small jobs for you, but you may not use large systems that do everything.
  Example of utilities

  • CSCache
  • Armor Detection System
  • Local Handle Vars
  • Vector System
  Example of large systems

  • Caster System
  • Particle/Object Engine
  • Knockback Functions
  • Jump System
• An infraction of any of the rules stated above may result in a disqualification.

Contest Prizes And Winnings

First Place: 40 reputation points and a special award icon Second Place: 20 reputation points Third Place: 10 reputation points

Contest Judging And Voting

• Judges:
  hvo-busterkomo
  
  Others To Be Determined
  
• Judging Criteria:
  

  Coding	Is the code leakless, organized, MUI, multi-level supporting?	30/100
  The Big Idea	Is the spell balanced, unique, and useful in game-play?	30/100
  Visuals	Do the visual effects match the spell? Do the effects provide unnecessary clutter (too many), or are the not enough? Do the visual contribute in a positive manner?	15/100
  Presentation and Polish	Is the spell bugless; does it work? Is the tooltip well-written, and is a fitting icon chosen? Does the spell fit into WC3?	15/100
  Legal	Does the spell follow all contest rules?	10/100

• 70 % of the winner shall be determined by the contest's appointed judge(s).
• 30 % of the winner shall be determined by the results of a public poll.

Contestants


If you would like to enter the contest simply make a post in this thread, stating the information about your entry.

Entry Name	Contestant Name

Contest Dates And Deadline
​

• 
  The Contest shall elapse over 3 weeks. Start and End dates shall be determined upon (if it is) being approved

 

[Reygn]

I'd give it a shot

 

[Gilles]

Good idea Asomath. We will indeed host this.

 

[Paladon]

Is this really needed?
There are the Mini-Contests in the T&S Section for single spells.
I dont think entries with single spells worth a contest.
On the other hand, there are Hero Contests.

 

[redscores]

Well, I will take part of this contest.

I am really happy that I can now "forget" jass making, because of the new hastable functions.

 

[Asomath]

Fantastic! So then, what contests will have to clear out before this one goes up?

~Asomath

 

[Saia_Djinn]

upon start you can count me in
i like the idea and theme alot

 

[busterkomo]

Is this really needed?
There are the Mini-Contests in the T&S Section for single spells.
I dont think entries with single spells worth a contest.
On the other hand, there are Hero Contests.

If they weren't acceptable, we wouldn't have hosted the previous Zephyr challenges.
Anyways, I can judge if you guys want.

 

[Asomath]

If they weren't acceptable, we wouldn't have hosted the previous Zephyr challenges.
Anyways, I can judge if you guys want.

Sounds great to me! your very suitable for the job! Thanks!

~Asomath

 

[krisserz]

Really good idea with the theme of contest. I`ll be in.

 

[Roflcoptor]

Either GUI or JASS may be used to create your spell; you will not be penalized if you use GUI over JASS.

So does this mean, they will be judged equally or will GUI generally gain below 50% of points due to lacking effiency?

Besides that it sounds really nice, think i'll participate

 

[Asomath]

So does this mean, they will be judged equally or will GUI generally gain below 50% of points due to lacking effiency?

Besides that it sounds really nice, think i'll participate

Those are one of the general rules for Zephyr Challenges. However, that does mean (in my understanding) that they will be judged equally. The only reason you would be gaining below 50% of the points IS if you were inefficient in writing your GUI. Now, I have a few essays to write for Princeton, so sorry if I become unresponsive.

~Asomath

 

[Roflcoptor]

Well, it is just, that there happenend to be unclarities in HC #2 about that.

Because there NO and by this i mean NO GUI hero (even if highly efficient for GUI) got a better rating than 4, which is of course understandeable, since it highly lacks effeciency compared to vJass, but this should be cleared in some way before starting the contest

 

[Palaslayer]

well s&s mini contest needed one spell and gave 10 reputation to the winner.

this is the same but it gives 40 - 20 - 10 rep to the first three places...

somehow ridiculous, you oculd go and repwhore as well...

and: i dont agree with coptor. gui should not be judged different, because not the efficiency of the program but the use of possible efficiency should be judged.

which means:

gui != jass
gui triggering != jass scripting

so e.g. you can get a 5/5 rating at gui triggering and seperately you can be excellent at jass scripting and get a 4/5 there...

 

[Roflcoptor]

Well, I never said it should be like that, no, i am totally against it, but since it is the same judge i asked how it would be in this contest

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Coding contest on the Hive. Somewhat ironic.

Although with 1.24, this should give us some more spells that work.

 

[busterkomo]

Would anyone object to me going ahead and making this (along with a few modifications)?

 

[Gilles]

Nope. Make sure to post a WIP in mods lobby.

 

[Brauzeit]

Sounds like fun, ill probably get in on this
I need some rep hah.

 

[Asomath]

Fantastic, go right ahead.

~Asomath

 

[Deaod]

gui triggering != jass scripting

GUI==Graphical User Interface. An interface for JASS. So GUI IS JASS code under the hood. And very bad code if i may add once again.

I got an idea: Convert all GUI submissions to JASS and judge them based on that. That about evens the playing field for all submissions.

And i dont want to hear any complaints about this, since you guys chose to use GUI instead of spending a few days learning JASS beforehand.

A few rules that bother me:

You may use utilities that do small jobs for you, but you may not use large systems that do everything.

That rule basically forces me to spend time on recreating something already existing. And it results in less portable spells and worse implementation of the systems in question (guess what, people actually spent TIME developing all those fancy systems).

Spells must be able to be cast by at least one unit per player at any one time. (Otherwise known as "MPI")

Youre contradicting your own rules:

If a submission does not follow the spell submission rules the creator will be disqualified.

The Spell submission rules also demand bugless-ness. Bugged submissions shouldnt be disqualified, instead they should be judged upon as faulty code (unnecessarily overcomplicated code) by the judges.

Also, wasting the judges time verifying the compliance with the contests rules is unnecessary. If it doesnt follow the contests rules, disqualify it. If it does, that part is superfluous anyway, as theyd get 10/10 points there.

 

[Karawasa]

GUI==Graphical User Interface. An interface for JASS. So GUI IS JASS code under the hood. And very bad code if i may add once again.

I got an idea: Convert all GUI submissions to JASS and judge them based on that. That about evens the playing field for all submissions.

And i dont want to hear any complaints about this, since you guys chose to use GUI instead of spending a few days learning JASS beforehand.

If you don't want to take it from him, then here is someone you can't really argue with;

http://www.wc3c.net/showpost.php?p=1101907&postcount=72

 

[Vosty]

Damn, I was bored, and I currently can only WRITE code, cause I'm on the move, so I ran into this.
I'm gonna try this. I'd like 40 rep for mahself.
=D

 

[HINDYhat]

Ooooooo, I'd like a spell contest!

EDIT: Also, Deaod, I'm liking the convert GUI to Jass rule.

 

[Palaslayer]

GUI==Graphical User Interface. An interface for JASS. So GUI IS JASS code under the hood. And very bad code if i may add once again.

I got an idea: Convert all GUI submissions to JASS and judge them based on that. That about evens the playing field for all submissions.

ok, to clarify my comment earlier in this thread.

gui code < jass code

correct?

but not the program you use is judged but your work will be judged. can you follow me? gui might only be an interface for jass and it might be bad (well, it is) but it is like art. you cannot judge style, only technique..

so a person drawing with photoshop will not get a worse rating than a person drawing with a pencil just because photoshop makes us think we would actually paint...

so what should be judged in a spell contest should be the work of the contestant and his skills in making spells with the type of wc3 code he uses. a jasser's skill can never be compared to a gui-user's skill...

it makes me sick that nobody can understand this...
i mean, you cant just say peter gets one point less then paul just because his name is peter...

 

[Deaod]

so a person drawing with photoshop will not get a worse rating than a person drawing with a pencil just because photoshop makes us think we would actually paint...

As long as the end result is equally good (in quality and skill), i dont care. But GUI code doesnt come close to vJass in regards to quality. vJass can achieve the highest quality of code (using some applicable factors like ease of porting to another map, ease of adjusting the spell for balancing, efficiency of code (code with a stable recycling algorithm where not needed is not efficient), ...).

a jasser's skill can never be compared to a gui-user's skill...

Yes, it can. See the suggestion i made about converting GUI code to JASS code before judging. That gives you a good idea of how efficient the code is.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

I love the convert GUI to JASS then compare idea. It's perfect! GUI is at it's core (bad) JASS with a different wrapper.

 

[Roflcoptor]

Well actually I don't care how it is handled, since everyone has his/her own opinion on this topic.

What DOES matter is only how the judge will rate it.

And i really want to know, how he handles it.

Ofc there can be great GUI spells, and like paladon once said: Everything you can do in Jass, I can do in GUI.

Still, these spells mimic game mechanics, so they should perform well in-game. Jass (since vJass is Jass too) definately is better at this point.

But also, there is user-friendlyness, and even if you have the nicest code with globals for setup in vJass, every noob will look at this and go like :"ugh wtf?", while GUI is pretty easy understandeable.

In my opinion, comparing these two is complete nonsense, I'd rather suggest either:
Doing the contest completely Jass/vJass or judging GUI based on how good GUI can be and Jass on how good Jass can be, and so on....

Because allowing GUI, but then automatically downrating GUI is like giving contestants the hope on winning, which they'll never have, and this is just pure......nonsense

 

[Palaslayer]

As long as the end result is equally good (in quality and skill), i dont care. But GUI code doesnt come close to vJass in regards to quality. vJass can achieve the highest quality of code (using some applicable factors like ease of porting to another map, ease of adjusting the spell for balancing, efficiency of code (code with a stable recycling algorithm where not needed is not efficient), ...).

Yes, it can. See the suggestion i made about converting GUI code to JASS code before judging. That gives you a good idea of how efficient the code is.

to the first points, no one doubts that jass is better...

to the rest, you dont have the possibility to change jass code when working with gui...

 

[PurplePoot]

Nope. Make sure to post a WIP in mods lobby.

Not sure why the WIPs can't be here myself.

That rule basically forces me to spend time on recreating something already existing. And it results in less portable spells and worse implementation of the systems in question (guess what, people actually spent TIME developing all those fancy systems).

Well, it depends whether you consider Zephyr more of a coding or concept competition; if it's a coding competition using stuff like xe is often silly (as it effectively leaves nothing to be judged), but if it's a concept competition then it makes sense.

ok, to clarify my comment earlier in this thread.

gui code < jass code

correct?

but not the program you use is judged but your work will be judged. can you follow me? gui might only be an interface for jass and it might be bad (well, it is) but it is like art. you cannot judge style, only technique..

so a person drawing with photoshop will not get a worse rating than a person drawing with a pencil just because photoshop makes us think we would actually paint...

so what should be judged in a spell contest should be the work of the contestant and his skills in making spells with the type of wc3 code he uses. a jasser's skill can never be compared to a gui-user's skill...

it makes me sick that nobody can understand this...
i mean, you cant just say peter gets one point less then paul just because his name is peter...

It would actually be opposite to how the artists handle it. Artists seem to care as much or more how you got to the result as the result itself, whereas coders care about the result and don't give a shit how you got there. In this mindset GUI is innately inferior as the result is much worse.

Ofc there can be great GUI spells, and like paladon once said: Everything you can do in Jass, I can do in GUI.

And like I once said: words of a true GUIer, and entirely wrong. Clean up leaks in GUI. I challenge you to.

...oh wait, you can't. We didn't even talk about anything remotely complex.

But also, there is user-friendlyness, and even if you have the nicest code with globals for setup in vJass, every noob will look at this and go like :"ugh wtf?", while GUI is pretty easy understandeable.

It's entirely unreadable, especially as it breaks whenever you try to tweak the structure of a formula.

In my opinion, comparing these two is complete nonsense, I'd rather suggest either:
Doing the contest completely Jass/vJass or judging GUI based on how good GUI can be and Jass on how good Jass can be, and so on....

But comparing the two makes perfect sense. Remember, it's the end result that counts, and as they both work towards the same end they are inherently related.

Because allowing GUI, but then automatically downrating GUI is like giving contestants the hope on winning, which they'll never have, and this is just pure......nonsense

It gives them a great chance to work on their skills, get feedback, and have a bit of fun. JASS submissions tend to win anyways because they perform better and are more flexible; why not encourage better GUI users to actually learn to use their potential?

to the first points, no one doubts that jass is better...

to the rest, you dont have the possibility to change jass code when working with gui...

That's your problem if you choose to use it.

 

[Palaslayer]

boah... this turns out to be very difficult.
but the main point is, judging gui worse than jass is a bad idea...

 

[HINDYhat]

The point is not to judge GUI as intrinsically bad. Instead, just judge the GUI converted to Jass. Now, that Jass is obviously terrible, but that just goes to show how shitty GUI is.

 

[Deaod]

like paladon once said: Everything you can do in Jass, I can do in GUI.

Thats nonsense. Ever seen something like TimerUtils or GroupUtils in GUI? Of course not, because noone who uses GUI cares about that.

But also, there is user-friendlyness, and even if you have the nicest code with globals for setup in vJass, every noob will look at this and go like :"ugh wtf?", while GUI is pretty easy understandeable.

Plain nonsense. Reading text isnt hard. And hardly anyone should go "wtf?"-like when reading Config constants in vJass (if they do, they have some kind of unneeded fear).

Because allowing GUI, but then automatically downrating GUI is like giving contestants the hope on winning, which they'll never have [...]

Im not suggesting to automatically give GUI submissions a lower grade. Im suggesting to convert GUI to JASS and see how efficient it is in JASS. If its inefficient in JASS then, well, you deserved it. If its not, fine.

to the rest, you dont have the possibility to change jass code when working with gui...

If you want to change JASS code, go learn JASS. If you dont, then accept that your code is inefficient and thus gets a lower grade.

 

[Roflcoptor]

Unfortunately PP,you got me ALL wrong:

Ofc there can be great GUI spells, and like paladon once said: Everything you can do in Jass, I can do in GUI.

And like I once said: words of a true GUIer, and entirely wrong. Clean up leaks in GUI. I challenge you to.

...oh wait, you can't. We didn't even talk about anything remotely complex.

I never claimed i could clean any leaks bult in GUI, nor did I claim, that I could do anything in GUI in Jass! I just wanted to say, that there are still great spells in GUI, ofc not as great as in Jass, but still great spells.

But also, there is user-friendlyness, and even if you have the nicest code with globals for setup in vJass, every noob will look at this and go like :"ugh wtf?", while GUI is pretty easy understandeable.

It's entirely unreadable, especially as it breaks whenever you try to tweak the structure of a formula.

Again you get me wrong -.-
Still you are right, and after some thinking I came to this conclusion
What I mean is, if you have a simple system for example a kncokback system in GUI you have a trigger where you simply set all the variables. In Jass most people tend to use a globals block. This still is harder to understand for non-jassers. Now please don't start like "ememem everyone should learn jass ffs" because not everybody wants to/has the time to/has the skills to/w.e.
I just wanted to express that GUI is in my opinion easier to read for not so expierenced coders....

In my opinion, comparing these two is complete nonsense, I'd rather suggest either:
Doing the contest completely Jass/vJass or judging GUI based on how good GUI can be and Jass on how good Jass can be, and so on....

But comparing the two makes perfect sense. Remember, it's the end result that counts, and as they both work towards the same end they are inherently related.

Well this depends on what you jugde the "end result". If effeciency for some reason doesn't matter for you, it is no big difference. Of course it makes no sense to compare them because we all know that JASS is better. Here we come to my next point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roflcoptor View Post
Because allowing GUI, but then automatically downrating GUI is like giving contestants the hope on winning, which they'll never have, and this is just pure......nonsense
It gives them a great chance to work on their skills, get feedback, and have a bit of fun. JASS submissions tend to win anyways because they perform better and are more flexible; why not encourage better GUI users to actually learn to use their potential?

What you say only makes partial sense. What potential does GUI have, if you say it is crap compared to JASS?? What should GUI users learn, other than Jass>GUI? And I always thought Triggers&Scripts forum and spell section would exist for getting feedbackOo. But ok then I'll post spells on my next contest to have some fun and get feedback. Anyway all I want is a clear statement HOW it will be judged in the end, is this so hard to understand?

EDIT: Well this also goes to you Deaod

 

[Vosty]

Damn.
Not another one of these threads.
STOP fighting over damn GUI and JASS.
Everyone uses it according to skill.
A new triggerer would not start with Jass, and an expeirenced person should consider it.
I'm confused. If I use JNGP, do I leave it in it's JNGP state, or compile it first?
I just started using my newgen, and I don't wanna screw up.
EDIT: NM! I found out.
I got some cool ideas, but I'm gonna run some with my bros.

 

[busterkomo]

Ok guys, here's an idea. Coding will be judged, and efficiency will be a factor. GUI will be deducted points for being less efficient.

Large systems (xe, etc..) will be allowed, but a spell solely based on the usage of that system will be deducted points. For example, creating a frostbolt spell with xe collider is efficient and everything, but we can't award high points for such little effort.

Thoughts?

 

[HINDYhat]

For example, creating a frostbolt spell with xe collider is efficient and everything, but we can't award high points for such little effort.

Who the heck would award high points for that? It's such a terrible concept that it should score 0 in that field anyway.

 

[PurplePoot]

Who the heck would award high points for that? It's such a terrible concept that it should score 0 in that field anyway.

Coding points, not concept points. You can have a brilliantly coded terrible idea.

--

I support the "convert to JASS then judge" model.

 

[HINDYhat]

Poot, I'm a strong supporter of Earth-Fury's arbitrary scale of hate. Using such a system for judging would solve all of these problems: the frostbolt example would just be given such a terrible score for the concept, the spell would never be able to redeem itself with any other aspects.

But that's a highly unorthodox judging method, and even though I love it for its simplicity, I doubt it could ever be applied anywhere without people crying for lack of convention.

 

[Roflcoptor]

Ok guys, here's an idea. Coding will be judged, and efficiency will be a factor. GUI will be deducted points for being less efficient.

Large systems (xe, etc..) will be allowed, but a spell solely based on the usage of that system will be deducted points. For example, creating a frostbolt spell with xe collider is efficient and everything, but we can't award high points for such little effort.

Thoughts?

Thanks, finally after 3 pages of unuseful posts, someone answers my question

 

[Palaslayer]

Ok guys, here's an idea. Coding will be judged, and efficiency will be a factor. GUI will be deducted points for being less efficient.

Large systems (xe, etc..) will be allowed, but a spell solely based on the usage of that system will be deducted points. For example, creating a frostbolt spell with xe collider is efficient and everything, but we can't award high points for such little effort.

Thoughts?

completely reatarded. because of that, many will not participate. hf with the contest!

and again, the award is too high...

 

[Roflcoptor]

Well it is a coding contest, so the focus of the judging is on coding. Coding includes efficiency, so Jass wins.

I think there should be a gui contest, but only my opinion.

I think many people who still participate will be very happy about many people not participating, because their chance to win inceases. Yeah the award is kinda...

 

[Palaslayer]

Well it is a coding contest, so the focus of the judging is on coding. Coding includes efficiency, so Jass wins.

I think there should be a gui contest, but only my opinion.

I think many people who still participate will be very happy about many people not participating, because their chance to win inceases. Yeah the award is kinda...

then better exclude gui completely from the contest. it doesnt help handling it like this.

 

[Roflcoptor]

Yeah that is what I suggested, but as you can see people with more power have other strange attitudes to my suggestion:

It gives them a great chance to work on their skills, get feedback, and have a bit of fun. JASS submissions tend to win anyways because they perform better and are more flexible; why not encourage better GUI users to actually learn to use their potential?

 

[Palaslayer]

those are unrealistic...

 

[Vosty]

JEEZUS CRUST!!!
CODING is not 100% of your score!
If you have an idea which is great, but written in GUI, you're gonna lose points, but you don't gotta get fricken zero!
Judge it like Jass. The BJ's are evil, but that doesn't mean they don't work (They jsut work slower. NOW if the spell doesn't even WORK, then why is it even here?)

 

[HINDYhat]

I for one fully support the idea of all GUIers sulking away.

 

[redscores]

Because you are a small-minded elitist, sorry to say HINDYhat, but you're acting anti-social, if this site would follow the "social" headline you would be banned forever, I would do it.

 

[HINDYhat]

if this site would follow the "social" headline you would be banned forever

lulz

Lulz aside, the fact is that GUI creates terrible code.

 

[redscores]

And? that is not your beer.... the only thing that counts is that you want to prevent people's free will to create GUI spells for contests, and thats anti-social.