WW2: World in Flames [REVISED]

[Fingolfin]

First of all: just as i said, infantries die too quickly, it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
On one of my other map, i had a squad leader who held items in his inventory representing squad commands, just like in DoW. Thing is, in a WW2 map (which for that matter is not very squad-based) it looks silly to just have units spawning out of thin air when you reinfirce (reinforcing from a barracks is just too much micro), and there is just no real point fo having it. Maybe in a smaller-scale map, but that would be another project.

 

[elfian]

"But we're adding some sort of "millitary commands" like in my Helms Deep"

That makes it all fine. I was worried about controlling too big armies, but since you have this ^, it's fine :]

 

[Vuormalainen]

"But we're adding some sort of "millitary commands" like in my Helms Deep"

That makes it all fine. I was worried about controlling too big armies, but since you have this ^, it's fine :]

Gr8

 

[Hugomath]

Will there going to be heroes, like Generals or Nation Leaders? If yes, they could have spells for controlling huge armies. For example, one that makes all units near the caster to attack/move to a targeted location.

 

[Vuormalainen]

Will there going to be heroes, like Generals or Nation Leaders? If yes, they could have spells for controlling huge armies. For example, one that makes all units near the caster to attack/move to a targeted location.

Here is how it will work as of now (as of now=might change if found not user friendly):

You have a "hero" which you easily can select to the left of your screen as with all heroes.

This "hero" has a ability which will let you select an area of troops you want to gain the command of. When you now order this "hero" specific orders, the picked units in the area will follow those orders. To pick a new group, you simply use the pick ability again probably using a hotkey(no cooldown, no cost of course), if not used, you'll keep control of the same group.

But of course you'll still be able to command units the normal WC3 way also when you don't have this "hero" selected
Hope you got what I ment

 

[Hugomath]

Yes I did. So this "hero", it's kind of the Nation Leader? Like, Stalin for the Soviet, Hitler for Germany, etc.

 

[Vuormalainen]

Yes I did. So this "hero", it's kind of the Nation Leader? Like, Stalin for the Soviet, Hitler for Germany, etc.

No it aint, it's just a tool for commanding armies

 

[Hugomath]

Oh I see. The range of that spell is long enough to cover the whole map, right?

 

[Vuormalainen]

Oh I see. The range of that spell is long enough to cover the whole map, right?

Thinking about 3 different sizes available
One being almost your full screen, one about your half, and one about the half of that^^

Also, using the Blizzard ability's circle model, you'll see exactly how big the selection area is.

 

[Hugomath]

I actually meant if the hero can cast the spells from anywhere on the map to any soldiers. For example, if the hero is in the United States, can he cast the spell to select and the spell to move an army which is can be in the other side of the map, like in North Africa?

 

[Vuormalainen]

I actually meant if the hero can cast the spells from anywhere on the map to any soldiers. For example, if the hero is in the United States, can he cast the spell to select and the spell to move an army which is can be in the other side of the map, like in North Africa?

Oh yes, of course^^

And if you didn't get that point, the hero will not be visual.

 

[Hugomath]

Oh now I got it. So it's a kind of special menu that allows you to control your army... like it

 

[Vuormalainen]

Oh now I got it. So it's a kind of special menu that allows you to control your army... like it

Exactly

 

[Falafelkorv]

What the deadline? Cant wait to play this.
Also, will you get a hosting bot to host this on battle.net regularly?

//Zelzahim

 

[Fingolfin]

I'd like to have a hosting bot, but i don't know how to do that.
If anyone feels like they're up to it, they can manage one for this map.

There is no deadline yet, but my goal is to have the first full house closed beta section somewhere this month.

 

[Hugomath]

Wish I could :/

 

[Fingolfin]

Minor update:

I have finished a new tree model for the map, which better fits the atmosphere i am trying to create:

Here it is ingame:

I have replaced the XGM tree models with retextured ones which go with the same theme as this one. Overall, the terrain now has a much more realistic feel.

 

[Hugomath]

Really nice . Fits exactly with the terrain

 

[Falafelkorv]

Wow, great job!
Keep it up!

//Zelzahim

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Great map, keep it up! How about adding a morale system for infantry too?

 

[Vuormalainen]

Great map, keep it up! How about adding a morale system for infantry too?

Would be unnecessary as when infantry gets in to combat they will most likely die directly - or survive. Also, as of how I think it would result in more micro.

And what do you mean by "too"?

 

[Hugomath]

Just curious, how does the map start? I mean, it starts with the war already begun, or it starts a little earlier than the German invasion on Poland? Oh and a new event if the Axis capture Paris: the France Falls: increases the training time of infantry for France and makes it a little more weaker.
Oh and the U.S.A and other players will be able to produce atom bombs?

 

[Fingolfin]

@Miss Foxy: I think it is an interresting idea, but it is also pretty hard to execute in my map, partially because of what Wuorma said; infantries die from only about 3-4 shots of a light tank - and those are also the only kind of unit that i could imagine would break the morale of infantry, since they use shrapnel rounds and do AoE damage.

There is also the factor of what kind of effect low morale would have; if they would flee, you have the problem of where yhey should flee - if you have them run to the opposite direction of the enemy, they might run into a tree, or a river, or even into another enemy formation.
If they would be simply somehow weakened by the low morale, then they would die even faster than they do already. The main role of infantry is basically to come in numbers and distract the enemies from firing at your tanks. They are fast and agile, and can storm through the lines blitzkrieg-style. They also have virtually no cost.


Speaking of the light tanks however, i just gave them a special passive ability that automatically shellshocks any infantry it fires at, reducing their movement speed. This is another part of distinguishing the role of the light tank.


EDIT: The game starts the 1st of August 1939, i.e. a few days before the attack on poland, and in the middle of the sino-japanese war.
All nations will be in a kind of standoff against eachother, and the japanese/chineese will be the only ones immediately allowed to attack eachother. Then comes the winter war, the fall of france, operation barbarossa, etc untill all nations are pulled into the war. From there, there are no restrictions except the tech depencies which unlocks certain years.

 

[Hugomath]

Suggestion: A "Surrender" command. If a player types -surrender, then it will become neutral to the other countries, and it will not be able to train any military unit or building. And also, his existing military units will either become neutral or be given to the enemy forces. For example, if Italy types -surrender, then it will become neutral and every building that trains military units, such as tanks and aircraft, will be frozen and it's existing military units will either become neutral, or be given to the Allies. Also, the economy buildings(like Oil Platforms) will be shared with the Allies, giving 20% to Italy and 80% will be divided between the Allied Countries.

 

[Falafelkorv]

For how long will it be frozen then?
//Zelzahim

 

[Hugomath]

Until the ex-enemy faction wins or the ex-allied faction captures the country's capital. In the case of Italy, if the Allies win or for example Germany takes back Rome. Also there could be a command that allows the country that decided to surrender become allied with it's ex-enemy. In case of Italy, help the Allies to defeat the Axis.

 

[Vuormalainen]

Suggestion: A "Surrender" command. If a player types -surrender, then it will become neutral to the other countries, and it will not be able to train any military unit or building. And also, his existing military units will either become neutral or be given to the enemy forces. For example, if Italy types -surrender, then it will become neutral and every building that trains military units, such as tanks and aircraft, will be frozen and it's existing military units will either become neutral, or be given to the Allies. Also, the economy buildings(like Oil Platforms) will be shared with the Allies, giving 20% to Italy and 80% will be divided between the Allied Countries.

My question is why would anyone ever do it? Instead he could just ally with allies and declare war on axis?

 

[Hugomath]

Yeah you're right... so if the player types -surrender then he will be allied with his ex-enemies and declare war on his ex-allies. Like Italy would ally the Allies and declare war on the Axis.

 

[WOWWARS]

how bout that for like minors and mini countries like Romania, blurguria, Serbia.

 

[Hugomath]

Bigger factions also need it lol. For example, if Germany stands no chance against the allied forces, they should be able to surrender and maybe help the allied. Of course, the allies should be able to choose either accept or decline the surrender offer. For example, the Soviet had so much causalities by Germany, that when they attacked Berlin, they showed no mercy, even for the surrendering soldiers or civilians. "An eye for an eye", I would say.

 

[Vuormalainen]

Everything you just discussed is already available through the ally/war options, tho the alliances will be set historically until 1945 when cold war beings.

 

[X3n0nX]

Remember the BELL shaped UFO in germany? LOL

 

[RiotZ]

@PostAbove: Yes. Lol.

On-Topic: When will this release... It looks so ridiculously good that I can't stop revisiting this thread. xD
Btw: You should give the 'Engineer' a Shotgun.. And a Mine Detector. You should also be able to place tank traps so you can force enemies with powerful tanks into a tight infantry confrentation. There would have to be some limit to them of course.

 

[Vuormalainen]

@PostAbove: Yes. Lol.

On-Topic: When will this release... It looks so ridiculously good that I can't stop revisiting this thread. xD
Btw: You should give the 'Engineer' a Shotgun.. And a Mine Detector. You should also be able to place tank traps so you can force enemies with powerful tanks into a tight infantry confrentation. There would have to be some limit to them of course.

Shotgun could be a good idea, but that's Fingoflins decision of course. If I recall right, he mentioned something about giving them rifles (normal infantry has submachineguns).

All infantry can detect mines.

Do you mean tank "traps" such as dragons teeth and the normal cross one?

 

[RiotZ]

I meant the normal cross ones. Not all units should be able to detect mines, that defeats the purpose.

@Hugomath's post referencing alliance standards: I think that after a country's capital is taken they should be defeated completely, that's what would happen in the case of real war. After the head is severed the body follows.

@Fingolfin: Hi thar... Once again.

 

[Fingolfin]

I disagree. The idea of making all infantry untis able to detect mines gives players a reason to bring infantry, and not just spam tanks.
Engineers are very exclusive, they are expensive and take longer to train which is done to prevent players from making groups of engineers who can plant entire mine fields at once.

I don't want to pack to many functions into one unit; at the moment, they have the following abilities:

*Repair
*Recover (removes buffs from units that have been immobilized)
*Construct (constructs defensive buildings)
*Plant Mine

And also making them exclusive mine detectors would make them some kind of super-mcGyver-units.

 

[RiotZ]

I disagree. The idea of making all infantry untis able to detect mines gives players a reason to bring infantry, and not just spam tanks.
Engineers are very exclusive, they are expensive and take longer to train which is done to prevent players from making groups of engineers who can plant entire mine fields at once.

I don't want to pack to many functions into one unit; at the moment, they have the following abilities:

*Repair
*Recover (removes buffs from units that have been immobilized)
*Construct (constructs defensive buildings)
*Plant Mine

And also making them exclusive mine detectors would make them some kind of super-mcGyver-units.

That's an excellent point you made in your first sentence.. I agree with that.

I think you should have more 'Infantry' classes.. Two of my ideas are..

(A\ Radio Operator: Very slow, low hit point, expensive scout unit. They should have a role similar to that of the Ghost in Starcraft... They could call in air support and such... Maybe some of their abilities cost money.

(B\ Sniper: Maybe this unit could have a different name for each faction. Light, fast, high dps. Can cast 'Binoculars' (Same as Farsight) and 'Hide' (Same as WC3 hide except can be cast during day and night.)

I have an excellent idea to make this game much more realistic.. If each unit had an Ammo Count and could reload. I know a way to do this fairly painlessly without using any resources as the integers.

 

[Fingolfin]

Well.. as for ammunition, it would be obsolete for the same reason as morale is. Your infantry is quite dispensable similar to how marines are in starcraft.

And as for other classes.. it would be possible to have a radio operator, except with the role of being like the sensor tower is in SC2, being able to ping enemy units in the near proximity (or optionally having a large sight radius), but as for now, i want to keep the infantry count down a bit since i want people to have a somewhat clear idea of what units they should train without getting cunfused; i can immediately tell that snipers will not be included since it is not appropriate in a map of this scope (imagining sniping across half a country), and if i am to add any other class, it would be machinegunners.

Thanks for your suggestions though.

 

[RiotZ]

By the ammunition I meant for all units except aircraft.. It would be much more realistic if they all had ammo counts. And as for infantry being dispensable.. If infantry platoons are easily taken by tanks and aircraft then their purposes are almost all defeated. It's more immersive if infantry play the same role they would have in the '40s.

You also need some kind of spin to make the game original.

 

[Vuormalainen]

By the ammunition I meant for all units except aircraft.. It would be much more realistic if they all had ammo counts. And as for infantry being dispensable.. If infantry platoons are easily taken by tanks and aircraft then their purposes are almost all defeated. It's more immersive if infantry play the same role they would have in the '40s.

You also need some kind of spin to make the game original.

Why ammunition, why? Micro and useless. Doesnt make any sense if you have to go reload/get ammo truck all the time, as I said just more microooooooooooo ...
Ammunition is for games where you don't controll huge armies.

And yes, I hate micro.

 

[Fingolfin]

Well, i have lots of spins to make this game original, but i don't really see the purpouse of having units run out of ammunition all of a sudden. I'd be like "WTF? Ok, now that unit is useless".
A single infantry unit didn't have much of a chance against a tiger tank in the 40's either, but instead, you build them in numbers at very low cost.
Infantry is manuverable, fast, and quick to produce. More specificlally, they are good at drawing the attention of heavy tanks, since armor piercing damage is really bad against infantry - and even though they don't deal much damage themselves against the thick tank armor, they leave room for AT-guns or other tanks to attack back without taking damage.
Infantry is also very good for scouting and intercepting artillery.


If i were making a small scale, squad based game where you only controlled a handfull of tanks and soldiers, then i would propably include ammunition, but in a game spanning the entire world, it's just not going to happen. Sorry.

EDIT: Oops, i forgot!

Stuart Tank model complete!

 

[Hugomath]

*Now about this ammo suggestion ,yeah Fingolfin is right. I'd train lots of infantry just to draw attention of the great divisions, so my stronger divisions would attack. For example, I would send lots of soldiers against a Tiger division just to keep them busy, while I bring my division of M18 Hellcat and some AT-Guns. I could also send my infantry against enemy AT Guns to flank them, or either provide some cover to my own.

*Now about the Stuart Light Tank: pretty awesome, good job Fingolfin . I like the "Fire Lady" written in the side .

 

[elfian]

Tanks are going to have a rotating turret system right?

 

[RiotZ]

You all keep missing the point!!! There is no stock of ammo... The stock is unlimited... So you don't need to micromanage... The point is when a German soldier holding a MP-40 unloads 35 shots or how ever many a MP-40 can hold into a Jew xD he has to reload. There would be no limit to how many times he would have to reload just how many bullets he can fire without stopping.. This could prevent some major spam of certain units too, like for instance some tanks could take longer to reload, or some tanks could fire 2 shots without reloading. I think you miss-understood the idea.

The only unit that should have a maximum stock of ammo would be aerial units.

Very nice model there Fingolfin, btw when can we play this.. Or when can I beta test it? :O
The game looks so polished and detailed that I can't wait to give it a run.

 

[Hugomath]

Just a quick one: MP-40 had 32 bullets.

Yeah in fact is a bit interesting, but, from my view, it could cause lag when several infantry units are reloading. And also, most of these soldiers would die so quickly, like half of a squad would die after firing only 10 or 15 rounds, while the rest could reload once, and then die. If any survives, than would be sent to battle, just to die. So it's worthless to put this ammo system, from my view.

 

[RiotZ]

That's a good point but I was thinking of infantry being able to huddle down behind cover when reloading, which could increase armor.. Or something like that.

And it wouldn't create lag, and least I don't think... All you do is use the units' custom values as the bullets, each time they attack subtract one from there custom value and so on (That's just the base of the spell).. So I don't think it would create lag.

 

[Fingolfin]

Well, the problem is still that this map is too large of a scale for this kind of system. I don't want to debuff infantry even further, and i'm not sure players would get the point.
Something i could implement though is for some units, like theoretically the Bofors 40mm Lvakan, which is famous for firing four bullets in each sequence to do so (it is also the base upon which the cannon for the m3 Bradley was made), although it's not present in the map at the moment.


By the way, i am glad to announce that ikillforeyou have offered himself to script the airplane movement system, so hopefully, we will have air combat in the next build!

Airplanes will have a kind of arbitrary role in this map, and are mostly there to prevent the spamming of artilleries on well-protected areas aswell as spamming of heavy tanks. They are also crucial for combat in the pacific due to the tiny size of most of the islands, and the speed and agility of tactical bombers. They are very cost efficient when it comes to sinking ships.

As for the first closed beta, i can tell that it is certainly drawing closer. It is not likely to happen untill early october though, due to me going to greece, and i have set Vuormalainen to do the thread managing and some minor map tinkering while i'm gone (god help us all!).

 

[RiotZ]

Well I have another question... When can I get some of these models.. xD
I wanted to start working on my WWII map about 4 months ago and haven't been able to start...

Air combat system sounds kewl btw. Good luck in Greece.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

How about adding a Prisoner Of War command, where if another player is about to conquer a country, the country can either choose to Surrender, Have A Final Stand or forced to ally with the enemy with some taxes paid and such.

PS: I love your models

You gave me a great idea!

.1 If you conquer an enemy you should be able leech off their income from anything they own, like 75%.

.2 If you conquer a city you there should be a choice between recieving income from the city with a small negative factor, or recieve no income and recieve no negative factor.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

How about adding a Prisoner Of War command, where if another player is about to conquer a country, the country can either choose to Surrender, Have A Final Stand or forced to ally with the enemy with some taxes paid and such.

PS: I love your models

 

[Falafelkorv]

Wow, fingolfin, awesome stuart!
I think alot of types of troops would be good, since this helps when it comes to developing tactics.
But your map, your call!

//Zelzahim