The Hive staff

[VeljkoM]

Wow wait just a minute.You are saying to remove all maps!
Then mods would have to review every single map ever uploaded on this site again.

 

[Pyritie]

We need to delete all of the map & spell submissions and start over.

We did that before with the maps. Didn't change a thing.

 

[~Void~]

I didn't bump to into any problems with the staff. I find quite a lot of them even friendly. I mean don't look for trouble and trouble won't find you.

Exactly. I don't have any qualms with any staff member here. At least not most of the time.

 

[Hakeem]

But there is a point where not using your powers becomes as troublesome a problem as misusing your powers.

I simply do not see how. When you are not using your powers, nothing is happening. What's wrong with that? It's the same as a user not being a moderator, because they do nothing in regards to moderation.

The number one problem with this site:

TIME.

 

[hawk_767]

I love how I mentioned there was a bit to much fighting and this thread starts fights. Anyways,

I already know things like humans are the way they are because they are human, they have their own feelings, thoughts, ways of dealing with things, but they should be able to make room for respect and things like this. Don't get into petty fights like your a little kid, be mature and talk out the problems without freaking out and screaming at the other. I'm not saying don't be vulgar and in your face but don't make it seem like if this were in real life you'd be beating them into a pool of blood.

Now about the mods and staff. I'm not saying they aren't doing their job, that wasn't what I was saying at all, I was merely saying that a few don't do much. I know their are and have been great staff.
Hawkwing
Brad
Rising
Wolv
They all did their jobs well and stayed in the community as well. Some like rising and Brad had strong feelings and made them obvious but that doesn't mean they are worth mouthing off against.
Something that really bothered me and I'm being kind of hypocritical here but the talking behind Risings back and saying things that were directly pointed at mouthing off against him. I did this a bit but that was before I got to know him, I was being irrational and stupid. Now other members do and I'm sure still do this. It's stupid. Ok go ahead and mouth off about him but don't turn around and say shit because he gets mad about it. He like all humans have a soul, and a heart and it can be hurt. Learn to be considerate of others feelings. As of late, it seems from what I've heard from Rising is that he's thinking of leaving the Hive. If so we may be loosing one of the best mods on site.

Now don't give me the, were human and we'll fight its in our nature, because I know this its been repeated over and over again. What you may not know is humans can also be thoughtful caring and respectful. I know scary thought.

Well anyways, I wasn't trying to say the staff was worthless, lazy and or a bad bunch, I was merely saying what I and others have spotted. So for any of you who have thought of it that way I apologize.

This is to Lionesses comment about us not being able to do anything about it. "Things happen in other words" No we can do something. We can always try and hope for an outcome. This can help people open their eyes to something maybe they didn't realize was going on. Don't ever think that just because something is going on, you can't make a difference, that is one of the dumbest mindsets you can ever have.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Yeah, really. Why should they act like normal people? I think they should be cold and mechanical and be unresponsive to insults unless they clearly break the sacred code that is written in the holy scripture. The staff shouldn't have personalities or anything, nothing that we people can relate to.

See, I agree with you, but you're making that point to the wrong argument. It's okay to have a personality; heck, it's a good thing. What it is not okay to do is have a personality that both conflicts with others persistently and then causes problems that make the userbase view their staff with the sort of hesitation that is currently to be had. The site right now needs staff members who can be a friend when being a friend is okay, but not let that friendship prevent them from doing what Ralle has given them the permissions (and thereby expects them) to do. That, my friend, is the problem.

 

[~Void~]

Dusk, you didn't notice the sarcasm, I don't think

It would be lovely if the staff didn't have the stupid qualities of a human, and only the good ones, but that really can't be expected of them. That was my point.

 

[anarchianbedlam]

.... I would like to say that a lot of these comments are very well thought out. Many good points have been brought up and I have a new respect for the Moderators.

THIS is what life is about, discussion and improvement. I revel in it.

I have been thinking long and hard about this for quite some time and through this post, i have been motivated just that little bit more, to be more accepting. I hope that everyone lives happily because these petty arguments should not affect you

The point is, they are doing the best that they can. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

It would be lovely if the staff didn't have the stupid qualities of a human, and only the good ones, but that really can't be expected of them. That was my point.

However, it would still behoove them to strive for the former. Many simply don't. At all.

 

[~Void~]

True.

 

[Vegavak]

However, it would still behoove them to strive for the former. Many simply don't. At all.

This point really ought to be bold, highlight, and bannered across everything.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The number one problem with this site:

TIME.

Fine. I'll build a time machine. You get me the heart of a ninja dragon and I'll take care of the rest.

PS: <3 the staff. Except Elenai. And Pyritie.

PPS: I think we need less serious. Drown yourself in the lie of rep or cookies if need be, but as long as everyone's happy this place is awesome.

 

[~Void~]

I think seriousness has its times and so do lulz. You just have to know when those times are, and most people here don't.

 

[En_Fuego]

I don't understand what's up with all of these threads about the moderation of the site and how it's been going in a negative direction.

Maybe it's because I've been inactive recently, but I really don't see any problems going on with the staff. Whether it be with us members or with the rest of the staff.

About DIY Death: he asked to have his account deleted. They didn't delete it because they wanted to keep his data, so Elenai just banned him. No problem there imo.

 

[Septimus]

Internal conflict between staff are solved via private discussion as far as I seen back at I was still a mod.

Of course, some unexpected feud been brought till to the public eye.

Majority of the staff did their job, is the user itself did not bother to read those rules; especially those rules at resources submission.

 

[Rui]

Why the hell are Rui and Elenai posting this kind of dramatic garbage?

What does the news batch have to do with anything?

We need to delete all of the map & spell submissions and start over.

We did that before with the maps. Didn't change a thing.

Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like the crappy maps were kept (the "keep this map" button) and the others vanished.

 

[Arvedui]

I simply do not see how. When you are not using your powers, nothing is happening. What's wrong with that? It's the same as a user not being a moderator, because they do nothing in regards to moderation.

And in a site that grows as constantly as this one if you don't do anything then problems arise. If there's no rule of law, if you will, on the site then users would just run around like headless chickens.

And I know what you're going to say and before you say it so let me give my rebuttal before I have to read it: No.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that that's how it is here, just cautioning not to let it get to that point, which it most likely won't.

The number one problem with this site:

TIME.

That's quite right. People come, people go; active users become inactive; active moderators/staff become inactive.

What does the news batch have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing.

Anyways, I do believe hawk_767's last post was superb. I don't feel like quoting it at this point, but it was largely ignored from what I can tell.

The thread isn't about your own petty arguments but about the condition of the site as a whole and what everyone can do to help. Or that's how I see it.

 

[Pyritie]

Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like the crappy maps were kept (the "keep this map" button) and the others vanished.

Yes, but it still showed that the maps just piled up again.

 

[LiOneSS]

This is to Lionesses comment about us not being able to do anything about it.

All we can do about it is make such threads who will turn into drama wars, get closed, and in the end it's the same like doing nothing.

 

[Mr. Bob]

I find it funny, that most of the people downgrading this thread, are the mods.

Anyway, I have a comment about the whole "unattended resources". With the models, I find it frustrating that the models that are to be reviewed, are randomly picked by the mods. Regardless of when it was submitted. For instance, (I made a thread about this, but everyone hammered me for no appearent reason) I submitted a model once on the 23 of December. Another model was submitted on the 7th of January. Which one was attended first? The January one.
I do not question the speed of which they are attended, just the method of choosing which ones to tend to. Please, go by order. No exceptions.

And again, I don't think the mods should post here. At all. Of course you are going to hate this thread, because it gives you more to do, and refine.

 

[Elenai]

PPS: I think we need less serious. Drown yourself in the lie of rep or cookies if need be, but as long as everyone's happy this place is awesome.

I would gladly be less serious if I had an ounce of respect, and at the very least some inkling of an idea when I can be loosened up.

Like I said, I either get yelled at for being too loose, or I get yelled at for being too strict.

And its hard to be a fun person when you are not payed any heed when you are trying to do your job. Like saying "alright, calm down, that's enough for a while" and then you are turned into a pinata for the lulz fest that follows.

I have really only one rule in regards to me:

"respect me, and I'll respect you, I'll show respect first if you are new. Maintain that ounce of respect, and I don't mind the jokes, and the carrying on, as long as it doesn't go out of control, or start wearing down and getting old."

Show me some dignity, and you'll have some measure of leniency, (as long as you don't go too far and start bullying or what ever)

Its like a teacher at the school yard.

"Trading punches with your friend is fine, I know the difference...but don't throw the new guy in the trash and call it "having fun" with him. Likewise I can also have a laugh with you in class, but when we are testing, keep quiet."

Unfortunately, its kinda hard to be a cool teacher, when you are not given a cool attitude in return.

I am fully willing to make these changes in my person, and to work with people who don't like me very much at all, I am willing to be more fun, I am absolutely willing and ready to put away the old grudges, and fights. I'll even apologize if I must.

But in return I want a certain amount of respect and a return in willingness to put away those grudges, and fights the other users have with me too, and maybe, just maybe, a few apologies sent my way too.

And all this goes for all sides of the argument both Staff and User-Dom. If this constant fighting is going to end, both sides need to give a little, and receive in turn.

 

[Kwah]

Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like the crappy maps were kept (the "keep this map" button) and the others vanished.

I wasn't suggesting that we have a "Keep this map" button. The sections are just so full of complete and utter garbage. Especially spells.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Heres and idea! Whenever someone uploads a crap map, that is not only utter garbage, but also does not fit the requirements, they get -10 rep! That would get rid of some of the people who just kinda upload without really caring.

 

[~Void~]

That's entirely the wrong approach. We just need to get through all the unapproved maps so from that point on the map mods can stay on top of the submissions.

 

[HINDYhat]

Hey, great idea! You first.

 

[Pyritie]

Anyway, I have a comment about the whole "unattended resources". With the models, I find it frustrating that the models that are to be reviewed, are randomly picked by the mods. Regardless of when it was submitted. For instance, (I made a thread about this, but everyone hammered me for no appearent reason) I submitted a model once on the 23 of December. Another model was submitted on the 7th of January. Which one was attended first? The January one.
I do not question the speed of which they are attended, just the method of choosing which ones to tend to. Please, go by order. No exceptions.

If you are referring to what I did, I did them in alphabetical order because that's how windows sorts my folders.

 

[Kwah]

We need people not to submit there crap maps. On the other hand it's not going to magically happen one day. This could be done by making the submission process more lengthy, and the map requiring a detailed description before it is approved/tested.

 

[AirHead]

I don't know how many map mods there are now but I think what is required is like 10 active map mods and a clear out of all pending maps with no 'keep button'.

@~Void~ when all of the maps were cleared before it didn't help much. Maybe we need more mods?

maybe the solution is heavy recruiting? although maybe not. Also if there were all of these map mods, they couldn't have any power over anything but the map section, or it would be very difficult to recruit responsible enough people.

EDIT: took to long to post, didn't see this

We need people not to submit there crap maps. On the other hand it's not going to magically happen one day. This could be done by making the submission process more lengthy, and the map requiring a detailed description before it is approved/tested.

IMO that should happen no matter what. Maybe a requirement of a high enough amount of characters in your maps description before you can submit it.

 

[HINDYhat]

Heavy recruiting = Shit mods = Shit reviews = Shit maps approved.

 

[Vegavak]

What does the news batch have to do with anything

Within the news batch, you state that you're the only one ever doing anything, creating a very whiny tone throughout the post, while simultaneously making yourself look like a complete horse's ass. You even degrade several staff members in the process. That news batch post was terribly written and did more bad than good, and served to distance Rising_Disk further from the very community he is trying to help. Myself and a few others who shall not be named agreed on this. Was that easier to understand?

 

[Mr. Bob]

Bah. I say, remove the map system. Just don't even try to moderate it. Just let people stick a bunch of maps on there, and if it gets 10 5/5 votes in a row, it goes to the 'uber maps' section. Then, all the others can be considered crap. Most of them are anyway.

And, py, you are not the only one who does that, just so you know. Your not alone!

 

[Hakeem]

And in a site that grows as constantly as this one if you don't do anything then problems arise.

Yes, if nobody does anything problem arise. The solution is to do something. Either by getting more mods or by the less active mods getting more active. No need for demotion. Why remove powers from someone when it only limits their ability to help, however slightly that may be?

And I know what you're going to say

Entirely different dynamic.

---

It seems to me that the problems go way back. Even to the time of Wolverabid. It seems to me Dusk has admin powers but even he is losing the will to help.

What could do that to an admin?
What makes so many moderators leave?

 

[Elenai]

Dusk has given up his powers, through my fault I suppose. He is losing the will because we are thankless.

 

[Vegavak]

If Dusk truly has given up his powers and lost the will, it's probably the same reason as most of the better moderators resigning as well.

Ralle hasn't ever cleared that problem up, and he's losing the chance to do so before more good moderators are lost.

 

[hawk_767]

I already gave you the heads up that he was probably going to leave. anyways, ya it sucks, we've lost dusk and hawkwing in a short period of time. Hopefully we'll find some more great mods to fill their places or have the other mods really pick up the pace.

 

[~Void~]

Most people on this site don't like dusk too much. It's a shame, but I think, here at least, he would make a better adviser than a community admin.

 

[En_Fuego]

Why don't you just give Global Mods (they can do this I think), Admins (them too), or any resource moderator the ability to approve/delete/disapprove maps for a short time.

It's not like they're forced into actually doing the job, but if they want to help out they can. That way you increase the number of people doing the job while being able to trust them at the same time.

 

[HINDYhat]

Dusk was a pain for me, but as much as he pissed me off I knew he was doing the right thing. And if he gave up his powers, well that's a shame.

The more I think about it, the less of a problem I really see. The map section is badly organized and it's no one else's fault other than ours. We made this a site for newbies to come and spam their low quality first maps in our section to overload all of our (voluntary) moderators.

But I don't really see how it matters so much. I don't expect us to EVER be able to catch up to the amount of maps being submitted. So what else to fix the issue? People submit less maps? Do you really think people would submit less low quality maps to a site with our standards? The Hive Workshop is, ever since wc3sear.ch went down, the place where newbies have been attracted since well, they need some place to settle down.

Best solution imo: do nothing.

As for conflicts between members, nothing we can do about it except ban more people.

 

[Arvedui]

Yes, if nobody does anything problem arise. The solution is to do something. Either by getting more mods or by the less active mods getting more active. No need for demotion. Why remove powers from someone when it only limits their ability to help, however slightly that may be?

I'm not arguing the demotion of anyone. But just for the hell of it, what if those inactive mods don't have the time or refuse to be active?

Also, it's been pointed out time and time again by countless users and staff that just making more people moderators is a terrible idea.

Entirely different dynamic.

Haha, fair enough.

---

Losing Rising_Dusk as an admin (or whatever he was.. I don't rightfully know) is terrible. He, from all my own personal interaction, actually did his job and did it well.

What could do that to an admin?

Us.

What makes so many moderators leave?

Us.

 

[Gilles]

Bah. I say, remove the map system. Just don't even try to moderate it. Just let people stick a bunch of maps on there, and if it gets 10 5/5 votes in a row, it goes to the 'uber maps' section. Then, all the others can be considered crap. Most of them are anyway.

And, py, you are not the only one who does that, just so you know. Your not alone!

People seem to fail to realize that this is exactly how we have it, somewhat. Approved maps simply have the sites guarantee that it works, and a trusted members opinion on it's quality (the moderator).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

It seems to me that the problems go way back. Even to the time of Wolverabid. It seems to me Dusk has admin powers but even he is losing the will to help.

What could do that to an admin?
What makes so many moderators leave?

Why help something that no one takes seriously? What good is all of that hard work if all you get is a bunch of gossip hate-spam about you for it? Honestly, if moderating and being an administrator isn't fun (and trust me, here at the Hive it isn't), then no one is going to want to be a moderator or an administrator. It's that simple. That's why everyone who has stuck with the staff for so long is either a "for the lulz" person, utterly inactive, or by some grace of God is loved by everyone on the site. Every other type of staff member, including Poot, Hawk, etc., just can't handle that environment -- it takes the fun out of it.

I know that I simply can't work with a group of people that cannot take the site seriously or at the very least can't respect the fact that I do. That's the ultimate turnoff, and honestly, the pressure of being in charge combined with the fact that no one cares is what turns staff away.

You want to fix something? Fix yourselves. If the 'respected' userbase were more respectable, things would likely be different.

 

[Hakeem]

But just for the hell of it, what if those inactive mods don't have the time or refuse to be active?

Who cares? They're not abusing their power. There is no reason to take power from someone just because they aren't using it. In fact, that is actually a reason to give someone power. It does no harm to anyone to have someone able to do something you can trust them to do. On the other hand, it can be harmful to have them unable to do something when it really needs to be done.

What are the negative effects of an inactive mod?

Also, it's been pointed out time and time again by countless users and staff that just making more people moderators is a terrible idea.

Yes, "just" promoting people is a bad idea. You promote someone when you find someone, not necessarily when need someone.

Honestly, if moderating and being an administrator isn't fun (and trust me, here at the Hive it isn't), then no one is going to want to be a moderator or an administrator.

It is my preference to be a user. I volunteer to be a mod because I would like to help the site. I want to get the site to a point where I don't have to be a moderator.

He is losing the will because we are thankless.

I don't think it was because of lack of appreciation. I don't think it was the reason for other mods that left either.

Us.

How can the users "break" an admin? Usually in user vs. admin, the admin wins. Probably because the user is breaking the rules. If the user isn't breaking the rules, then what does the admin care?

I don't think many of us volunteer to help out for the appreciation (Because people really appreciate mods, you know?), and those that are, should probably not be on the staff in the first place, because that would make you subject to user demand. There is nothing wrong with complying with the users demands, but if the reason for doing so is because they wanted it, then you are subject to making the wrong decision.

---

If not appreciation, what can cause so many admins and mods to leave?

 

[Arvedui]

Hakeem, read Rising's post before yours that explains it.

 

[Hakeem]

Posted without preview, didn't see post. Edited.

I am not calling you a liar Dusk, but from my eyes it doesn't look like you're revealing the complete truth. (Possibly for reasons in following sentence.)

I do not mean to point the finger at anyone, but to those who were in the chat at the time, what did it look like to you was the final straw for Dusk?

 

[hawk_767]

Probably the fact that they gave him shit for wondering what people had been mouthing off about towards him. Especially the fact that people continued to say shit even after he left I mean come on, grow up people. Don't pretend to be better than someone your not. In fact your all equal with great qualities, but SOME are more arrogant than others, and believe they can mouth off about other. Yes I know human nature but I mean come on. Just because it's out nature doesn't mean you can just push the limit. Dusk did nothing to deserve any of it. He took things seriously? OOOOO scary. That's a horrible thing for someone to do. I really wish we all would have realized the good he brought before mouthing off towards him. I for one feel a load of shit for being one of those people.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

what did it look like to you was the final straw for Dusk?

Well, I'll quote it for you --

Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:12: Rising_Dusk: Maybe I'm just used to a nicer standard of people is all. Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:17: Rising_Dusk: I don't come on the internet to deal with shit. Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:21: Samuraid: Although the fad of taking screenshots of funny chat things seems to have passed long ago. Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:38: GhostWolf has left the channel Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:39: Ghost765: Samuraid, i find editing screenshots of chat is more fun. Lobby 2009-01-21 04:00:42: Traxamillion: Rising_Dusk, LOL YOUR A FUCKING LEADER AT WC3C AND YOUR USED TO NICER PPL LOL GOOD JOKE DUSK

---

I am not calling you a liar Dusk, but from my eyes it doesn't look like you're revealing the complete truth. (Possibly for reasons in following sentence.)

I'm revealing all of the truth. People mistreating me like this when all I do is try and try and try takes all of my motivation and throws it all away.

It is my preference to be a user. I volunteer to be a mod because I would like to help the site. I want to get the site to a point where I don't have to be a moderator.

I moderate and try to help sites because I find it fun; you volunteer to be a mod because you like to help the site so that it can continue to be fun for you (and consequently others). You are driven to help the site so that it no longer needs your help and is thus fun without all of the work. Surely you see the parallel.

 

[Hakeem]

The quotes are after what I perceive to be the "breaking point". What caused you to say those things is what I'm inquiring about.

I'm revealing all of the truth. People mistreating me like this when all I do is try and try and try takes all of my motivation and throws it all away.

Yes, but it wasn't because a normal user mistreated you was it?

I moderate and try to help sites because I find it fun; you volunteer to be a mod because you like to help the site so that it can continue to be fun for you (and consequently others). You are driven to help the site so that it no longer needs your help and is thus fun without all of the work. Surely you see the parallel.

I get where you're coming from. I was more referring to that fact that my chat bot has to stop people from using kick and ban commands. I can't do silly things like share chat session if I'm a mod. (But those kinds of things disappear as technology improves, so I'm kinda out of luck anyway.)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The quotes are after what I perceive to be the "breaking point". What caused you to say those things is what I'm inquiring about.

Bleh, I was investigating in the chat log as to why Ghan banned Lirch, since he was very hush-hush about it when he announced it to the staff. Upon finding it, I noticed that I had become the topic of discussion and did the stupid thing and decided to read on. There was a lot of stuff in there that was said that was really insulting from a lot of staff members, some who acted like they appreciated me while I was in channel, and some that always acted out of line. It really showed me exactly the kind of impact all my hard work had on the betterment of the site -- that is to say, none whatsoever. I guess I was really furious with it all, so I decided to join chat and tell them that I didn't appreciate what they were saying. At that point, every single staff member in the chat rallied against me in some way and I was just.. I was just done with it.

I can't take that kind of treatment. I don't care if this is the internet, not everyone gets on the internet to flame people and spam. Some really do care and that's what they take away enjoyment from, and then people just rub it in the dirt like its meaningless. These are people that are supposed to be the leaders of the site, too, and that's just... That's awful.

 

[Mr. Bob]

People seem to fail to realize that this is exactly how we have it, somewhat. Approved maps simply have the sites guarantee that it works, and a trusted members opinion on it's quality (the moderator).

No no, I mean, get rid of the map mods in general. Just make it a separate department. Instead, of trying to determine weather it works or not, just let it be.

 

[Septimus]

Ok, there is a lenghty note over here. Pardon me if I miss something.

Approve map was guarantee to be work, so does the other resources. The problem lies at pending map, where several unreasonable user post a multiple version or rejected map of it despite the warning.