Techtree Contest

[Ghost765]

hum, i dont think so. they have mediocre damage, ok hp, ok armor, and slightly faster attack speed. and they have berserk.
so. is giles changing the theme to no theme?

 

[~Void~]

It's still creeps theme...?

 

[Ghost765]

I dunno what I was thinking when I made this poll. Oh well, I can change it to whatever I want in the end.

and the poll hasnt ended yet either

 

[~Void~]

I think it can end now, we know what's the clear majority.

 

[Ghost765]

actually, medieval and magic might catch up... theyve grown abit lately. and once again, if giles wants no theme, i think its gonna be no theme. since the hive isnt a democracy.

 

[~Void~]

I can convince him either way. Hive isn't a democracy. Touche! ;]

 

[Ghost765]

we need to rise up and strike down the mods. anyways. giles is not to be convinced. u cant do that. thats Ill-Egal

 

[Kyrbi0]

chimaeras/mountain giant are super units, as are gryphon riders/knights, frost wyrms/aboms, and tauren

Ahhhh... You mean "Tier 3 Ownage Units" (as they are colloquially referred to) Gryphon Rider, Tauren, Frost Wyrm, and Chimaera. Generally, the T3 unit that occupies a slot alone in it's own T3 "barracks", and often with a single, passive attack-enhancing upgrade available for it.

Yeah.

Umm, to answer your question, I don't know why you'd want to limit them, if we were making "melee comparable" races (mini or full). What did you have in mind?

 

[Gilles]

we need to rise up and strike down the mods. anyways. giles is not to be convinced. u cant do that. thats Ill-Egal

It's Gilles damnit!

I think having no theme is probably the best idea.

@Kyrbi0: I still think that you can make an interesting race using some of the skills already in wc3. I also meant small edits, like changing the effect of acid bomb (if you look, there are multiple things acid bomb can do, that it normally doesn't). That would only take a few minutes, as apposed to making one using triggers, which could take an hour.

 

[Linaze]

No theme, relatively low file size limit, full techtree and a combination of triggered spells and in-game spells.
Yeah, that'd be my dream "theme" for this contest.

 

[Gilles]

Damn it, stop voting for file size limit!

 

[Linaze]

So what do you want, then?
No imports or?

 

[Paladon]

Filesize limit does only make sense if imports are allowed.
Gilles, you don't have to follow the results of the poll

 

[Gilles]

Filesize limit does only make sense if imports are allowed.
Gilles, you don't have to follow the results of the poll

I'll go with the poll for the rules, besides it's not like I'm going to enter. The theme will probably be open.

 

[Linaze]

Coming from nowhere, but approximately when will this be hosted, mr Arena Mod?

 

[~Void~]

~Void~ convinces Gilles that no theme is gay.

 

[Mechmap]

Making 4 complete heroes is pretty hard work. I would say a minimum of the 2 heroes and then maximum of 4. Even though the race will have less than the others, it might still be able to compete since you can only have 3 heroes at the same time.

BTW: about what units are allowed, think about that creeps like satyr, only have buildings that are used in the campaign that are not under creep, so thats a dissapointment if theyre not allowed.

 

[Gilles]

Maybe one hero? Heroes aren't the biggest part to me.

Void, what would you suggest? I don't want to use a single race, I don't know why I put them up. Musta been high or something.

 

[Linaze]

Creep race is broad enough, to be honest.

 

[Mechmap]

Void, what would you suggest? I don't want to use a single race, I don't know why I put them up. Musta been high or something.

Got to agree with you there. What would be the fun if everybody did Dwarf race?

 

[Gilles]

Exactly. I never really gave it any thought till now.

 

[~Void~]

Maybe one hero? Heroes aren't the biggest part to me.

Void, what would you suggest? I don't want to use a single race, I don't know why I put them up. Musta been high or something.

Creep races. Just to pick one, or several, of the many.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Exactly. I never really gave it any thought till now.

*whew*, alright. I'm just sitting here reading posts, like "are they seriously still considering forcing every entrant to do the same race??"...
I mean really. If that went through, I'd just stand back and laugh (how many Dwarf Warriors can I see?...).

Then again, maybe I'd enter to just to pwn everyone's soul. (that's right, he's gotten cocky. Jump him!)

~~~

Wait, how can you say this:

Maybe one hero? Heroes aren't the biggest part to me.

and still think this:

because balance is a huge aspect of creating a race

Regardless of whether they're "the biggest part to you" or not, Heroes are a huge part of a race's balance (4 super-units that can level up through combat, hold/use items, and gain up to 4 spells that can drastically affect the game?).

Hence the "mini-race" argument. I am 100% with Mechmap on this:

Making 4 complete heroes is pretty hard work.

It is] a lot of work to make 4 good, balanced, innovative heroes (none of this "chain lightning - frost nova - endurance aura - bladestorm" garbage ).

If we were doing mini-races, making 1 (heck, bump it up to 2 for kicks and giggles) good heroes becomes much more feasible.

What would be the fun if everybody did Dwarf race?

The only good that would come of that is a whole bunch of Dwarf resources (requests, modellers working on this, etc). And that's not even 100%.

BTW: about what units are allowed, think about that creeps like satyr, only have buildings that are used in the campaign that are not under creep, so thats a dissapointment if theyre not allowed.

I'm not sure I understand you're question... But if this goes through like it should, the "theme" will instead just be "anything but Human/Orc/Undead/Night Elf, so you can use whatever kind of building/unit/hero models you'd like for a Satyr (or whatever) race.

No theme, relatively low file size limit, full techtree and a combination of triggered spells and in-game spells.
Yeah, that'd be my dream "theme" for this contest.

- Any race (except the playable 4)
- Allow Imports
- - File-Size Limit (meh? dunno a good one)
- Allow Teams (2 people max)
- Standardize submissions (all must use the same Ladder test map, starts with [TECH] and then the race's name, must have credited authors and credits for all imported resources, etc)
- Allow Triggers (period)
- Mini Race.
~Grade on~
- Completeness (how "finished product", including polish like hotkeys and tooltips and stuff)
- Balance (compared to either the playable 4, or other Entries, or just "in general")
- Creativity (how interesting is the race? does it play well? are the spells interesting, or not just all renamed Blizzard spells w/ imported SFX?
- Feel (does it feel like how that race should feel? (i.e. Dwarves = stocky and slow, mainly melee fighters, all about war, plus some mechanical know-how -- Trolls = swift and agile, guerrilla warfare, magic and ranged stuff, violent and destructive))

Even if no "mini-races", please to be keeping the rest.

@Kyrbi0: I still think that you can make an interesting race using some of the skills already in wc3. I also meant small edits, like changing the effect of acid bomb (if you look, there are multiple things acid bomb can do, that it normally doesn't). That would only take a few minutes, as apposed to making one using triggers, which could take an hour.

I'm sorry, I wasn't really clear with what I was saying. I totally agree with you; there are several spells in the game that have unused Object Editor fields, that can be twisted to do all sorts of things. There are even more spells and abilities that are unused in the Editor (as well as hidden models/icons/etc).

In fact, it's quite possible to make a good race (at least, make some good abilities) with minimal triggering.
I'm just saying; I'm willing to bet (well, not really, but you know what I mean) that we will see a bunch of races that are filled with garbage abilities. Nothing ingenious, little changed. I don't want to see it (it'd be nice to compete against, though, if I can find the time to make a good entry. )

If instead we work with Mini-Races, there's a lot less to botch up, and there are enough unused/modifiable abilities that we can make something interesting.

Which brings me to my main point (lawl). Mini-Races. I realized yet another thing in support of them. If this goes through as "make an entire Techtree!!", it will be achingly similar to the currently floundering Campaign Contest. It is simply too much work to consider doing competitively. Races and campaigns are the kinds of things people (or teams of people) spend months on, with real drive and passion behind their work.

I'm not even talking about the idea that people will put forth bad effort, or that not enough people will join. I'm talking about sheer boredom. Even if you make, say, a 3-month deadline ("plenty" of time, right?), people are just going to get absolutely bored out of their gourds doing this thing. No one wants to undertake something of this magnitude for this long. It's just an unfeasible contest idea, plain and simple.
Not to mention, the more time this thing takes (which it will, trust me), the more Real Life will get in the way. Few of us have the time to set aside, or even the will to set aside a couple months for work (sure, you can work here and there, squeezing in time, but at the cost of all other recreation?).

However, making races competitively still sounds like a fun idea, IMO. The appropriate solution to this problem of boredom is to make a miniature techtree (which Blizzard conveniently gave us a perfect example of in the TFT campaigns), like the Naga. Something like that can be made in a relatively short amount of time, with not nearly as much effort or time as a full-race. It's at least half as large (or less) than a regular race, with much less being required. However, as anyone who's played Naga can tell you, the Naga still 'feel' like a well-thought out and capable race.
If we can capture that 'feel' with this contest, I'd say we've succeeded. Then the rest is just a matter of deciding who did the best job in capturing the racial theme (not to be confused with the poll's themes), and they're the winner.

(*whew*)

 

[Ghost765]

there would be none. alot of repitition. Sorry for misspelling gilles giles. oops. i mean gilles. err gills...lol
how bout a 2mb size file limit?

maybe have a minimum of 1 hero, maximum of 4?

@krybio
well, a made an altered melee along time ago, it was between Alliance vs Horde, and the alliance had the option to train Captains, and you could only make 5 captains i think. they did good damage, and gave out a few auras. it added abit of militaristic realism to the map.

 

[~Void~]

No, you have to make the whole race, otherwise it isn't fair. And the file limit will stay at 1MB, I think.

 

[Ghost765]

1mb isnt cool.

 

[Kyrbi0]

No, you have to make the whole race, otherwise it isn't fair.

What in the world... "Fair"?? If everyone is making a mini-race, then it's equal that way. Heck, even if we all made a single hero, then that would be equal (and thus 'fair').

"Fair"? Elaborate, please.

 

[Linaze]

I must agree with Kyrbi0 that making an entire techtree is a lot of hard work. I strongly encourage the idea of mini-races.

 

[~Void~]

You said 1-4 heroes. If someone made 1, it wouldn't be fair to the person who made 4, assuming we would judge them equally. Which I sure as hell wouldn't. So to avoid that, it will be a full techtree. Making a map is a lot of work, making a model is a lot of work, and I don't see why this contest should be any different. There IS a reward, after all.

 

[Kyrbi0]

You said 1-4 heroes.

I'm sorry if this seems rude, but Quote me saying that.

I think you're talking about Mechmap. I said "I agree" with him, but only Quoted him saying "4 heroes is a lot of work".

If someone made 1, it wouldn't be fair to the person who made 4, assuming we would judge them equally. Which I sure as hell wouldn't. So to avoid that, it will be a full techtree. Making a map is a lot of work, making a model is a lot of work, and I don't see why this contest should be any different. There IS a reward, after all.

Obviously, the contest parameters have to be the same for all contestants. I and anyone else would be daft to suggest otherwise.
I'm not saying "some people make mini-races, others make full races; do what you want!", or even "make a mini-race, however-many heroes is fine".

Even if I said "1-4" heroes, I meant merely that the creator of the contest would pick a number (1-4 providing a range), and mandate that for the contest. It's like me saying "hey mod, please don't make us make any more than 4 heroes! Obviously, we should at least make one." Not saying it should vary; that's ridiculous

Making a map is a lot of work. That's why there aren't that many "map making" contests (to my knowledge). Making a single model isn't nearly as much work as all this. But if it was a model contest, then yes, I would expect all players to have equal parameters (thus = fair).

So, it would be "fair", if everyone had to make a mini-race.
IMHO, it should be just like the Naga, in that there is only 1 hero. But maybe you guys think 2 would be better. So I might say "1-4" (although I don't recall doing so).

 

[~Void~]

I think you're talking about Mechmap. I said "I agree" with him, but only Quoted him saying "4 heroes is a lot of work".

Hmm hmm, that was directed at Ghost, though.

And honestly, this is a full-sized arena mapping contest, not a mini-contest. Most of the other mapping contests probably took MORE work than this. I really don't think it's a problem.

 

[Chaos.]

Although my opinion doesnt matter, lol, i vote for full tech trees

 

[Ghost765]

well then...if its alot of work, get a partner.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Hmm hmm, that was directed at Ghost, though.

Ah, then disregard.

And honestly, this is a full-sized arena mapping contest, not a mini-contest. Most of the other mapping contests probably took MORE work than this. I really don't think it's a problem.

"This" is whatever we choose to make it ("we" being the moderator(s) in charge, hopefully with suggestions taken by general users). Little is actually decided as of yet (although I would think that most of us are in agreeance that "No theme" is the way to go... ).

Besides, I'm not saying we should make a "mini-contest". I'm saying that the contest itself should be "Create a Mini-Race". It's a full-on contest, no doubt; I don't think making even a Mini-Race is anywhere near "easy". However, it is incredibly easier than trying to create a fully-realized custom race.

If the phrase "Mini-Race" bugs you, then maybe refer to it as "Create a Campaign Race" or something. It's really not an indication that the contest itself is in anyway "cut short".

Again, I'm not trying to make a lame half-a-contest. I'm just suggesting something that I think will, quite honestly, save this contest from utter failure. If this goes through as "create a full race", we will have fewer entrants; and the people who do enter will be hard-pressed to make something good. That is, if the contest goes on for long enough (month or more). And then, even if we do have plenty of time, most (if not all) of the entrants will become bored, apathetic, or lazy (or all 3).

 

[~Void~]

But how is making a mini race useful?

• Spell/system contest winners get used in maps.
• Model/skin/icon contest winners get used in maps.
• Map/campaign contest winners get submitted and played.
• Cinematic/terrain/art contest winners get gawked at by jealous newbies.

But a mini-race? At least with full races, the top entries could be compiled into a melee map and submitted to the map section.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Cinematic/terrain/art contest winners get gawked at by jealous newbies.

Don't forget, Art Contests can serve as inspiration for other artists (models/textures/icons/etc), or even a Modelling contest (idea!). Also, Terrain contest winners can be used by mapmakers.

But how is making a mini race useful? At least with full races, the top entries could be compiled into a melee map and submitted to the map section.

I can think of several ways it can be useful:

• Winning race can be used in a Campaign (similar to Naga)
• Winning race can be used in maps (some maps actually use Mini-Races, for quicker gameplay or easier loading, etc)
• Winning race can be further fleshed out and used in maps (as a full-race)
• (IF custom resources are allowed): There's a good chance we will see some custom work actually being created solely for this contest, so all of your above comments apply (models/icons/textures used by other people in maps).

 

[~Void~]

Nah. I'm still against mini races, I think I've made my points pretty clear, full races are more useful than mini races.

 

[Ghost765]

no one playes altered melee nowadays unfortunately

 

[~Void~]

It's still fun to make

 

[Ghost765]

true dat. always fun to make new techtrees. specially for old races.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Nah. I'm still against mini races, I think I've made my points pretty clear, full races are more useful than mini races.

And I haven't? I never said mini-races were more useful; I just think this contest will be a much greater success than a full-race one would be. Thankfully, you are not the only one in charge of setting this thing up, but I'm sorry I couldn't convince you.

well then...if its alot of work, get a partner.

I don't want to be forced to get a partner. I want it to be a give-and-take thing that I optionally opt for; i.e., if I choose to partner with someone, I can get more work done, but I only get half the reward. Not "join with someone or you have no hope of finishing".

~~~

I just recently realized that the original "Techtree Contest" involved making an entire, full-race Techtree, and that it was a resounding success (11 entries, with awexome stuff like the Magical Union and the Rotting Tide...). I was wondering when someone would bring that up.

However, even that is a different circumstance; they were only allowed to use in-game stuff (easier to amass), and no triggers were allowed. While triggers aren't a huge part of a custom race, I definitely think they take some time. Anyway, not the same situation.

~~~

no one playes altered melee nowadays unfortunately

The sad truth. :/ I still love making them, though.

 

[Gilles]

I don't like the idea of a mini-race, simply because you can't balance it. I understand your point, but until you can show me a good way to balance the races, I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[Linaze]

Gilles has a good point there. You can't compare your mini-race to something really. And because of that, you cannot balance it.
Hmmmmm...

 

[Kyrbi0]

I don't like the idea of a mini-race, simply because you can't balance it. I understand your point, but until you can show me a good way to balance the races, I don't think it's a good idea.

You mean, like on page 7?

Hmm.. That's a good point.

I would submit that, since the Naga race was always "comparable" to the full-races the player was playing in the campaign (i.e. able to stand it's own, but not overpowering (well, except for Coautls and Royal Guards...)), we could still compare each Mini-Race to each Full-Race.

Or, we could just take each Mini-Race and compare it to the other entries (wait, no never mind.)

Wait, no yeah. Maybe we should worry less about balance, and more about ideas and execution. Like, if we see a race that's just a bunch of garbage (renamed spells w/ different SFX, simple/lame unit/heroes, no changed tooltips, no custom/different stuff, etc), then that race will be judged poorly. However, if we see a well-made race, one that really feels "custom" and captures the "feel" of that particular faction, then that user/team did well and should score well. Even if, against the other races, they are incredibly over/underpowered.

Hmm.. I agree balance is usually very important, but I think that for the purposes of this contest, we should be judging on race design and similar themes.

 

[~Void~]

I honestly don't see the point in this argument. It won't be mini-races.

 

[Ghost765]

mini races seem boring to me honestly
so...i guess its gonna be a no theme race, and import limit, triggers allowed, 3-4(?) heroes, full techtree?

 

[bounty hunter2]

No imports and trolls - my vote.

 

[~Void~]

I honestly think that without theme restrictions we will get loaded with stupid entries. How about Warcraft theme, at least?

 

[Paladon]

Yeah^^

 

[Chaos.]

i suggeted that on page 2.