Tech-tree Contest #9: Theme Poll

[eubz]

OK, Suggestions are well enough so let us vote for the theme now. Please, choose the best that fits with your ability.

To enlighten everyone with each theme, explanations are herewith added:

Nomads	A race with no permanent/main base. Buildings can be moved in any places.
1-tire race/mini-race	A race with simple tech-tree. One spellcaster, some melee soldiers, a few range attackers, a single siege unit, and a single hero.
switching race	A switching/morphing-themed races
improved melee/Innovation	Improve the usual melee races. Select one and improve/have innovations with it.
no imports	Everything should be based on in-game resources.
super unit	A race with a very powerful unit but not very much imba. Each race can only have one of this type. This unit should be costful so as to balance the gameplay.
custom resources	explained

As you can see, improved melee and innovation are the same and also 1-tire race and mini-race are the same so voting for improved melee means voting for innovation; voting for 1-tire race means voting for mini-race.

Let's get this rolling....

 

[Kyrbi0]

Aw MAAAAN... : ) I was hoping for a multi-vote poll. Criminy.

Now I'm not sure what to vote for... Since my whole discussion was about having it be "mini-race" regardless of the Theme chosen (i.e. just changing the way the contest is done, going back to the original). But if I choose "mini-race", I'll likely be the only one & miss out on voting for a Theme I actually like. :<

For the record, it would be good to have just a little explanation (or perhaps links in the Poll Options) to describe what we're talking about.

-Nomads	Bleh
-1-tier race	What is this? And how is it different from "Mini-Race"?
-switching race	Huh? Oh, a race with duality? Like, switching between different forms (i.e. Worgen), or an entire race flip-flopping (Blood Elves to Wretched)? Permanent or Temporary or Conditional?
-Improved Melee	Erg... In what way? Isn't this by definition "improving melee"?
-Innovation	What is being Innovated? Shouldn't every submission offer something 'innovative'? : ) Or is this the old idea brought back? (I never really understood that one either)
-No imports	Ok, pretty simple. I kinda like this one.
-super unit	Bleh. Not my personal cup of tea, but it could work.
-Custom resource	How many? What type? Is this just "everything & anything"? And the "Custom/In-game Resources" is really more of a 'Role' question; what's the 'Theme'?
-mini-race	Duh.

Perhaps what I'm suggesting is that you have/had a multi-vote poll, but one that is a few polls in one (as seen here), since the questions of, say, "Custom vs. In-game Resources" and "Mini vs. Full vs. Partial" and "Theme" are all different.

For me personally, I'd say we should do a Mini/Partial-style, Limited (1) Imports, [Insert Theme Here] Contest. Those 3 elements help to define different parts of the Contest.

~~~

In terms of "Theme", I see 3 Options: Nomadic, Transitory (switching/morphing-themed races), and Ascendant (Super-Unit-focused races). Of those three... I'm torn. I'd probably pick 'Transitory'

But I'll suggest my own (sorry for not thinking of this sooner): "Biome"! (Been playing Terraria a lot lately with my wife, and they feature this).

Basically each Contest (could work for multiple) we'd pick a Biome to focus on. So say this contest we do Forest Biome as the Theme. That means you can pick any race that lives in the Forest (Furbolgs, Satyr, Forest Trolls, Night Elves (eh), Woodland Creatures, Emerald Dream (?), etc). Other Biomes could be Jungle (Creepy Crawlies, Lizard-men, Murlocs/Naga, Jungle Trolls, etc), Desert (Qirajji (sp?), Sand Trolls, Wind/Earth Elementals, Cactus-people), Underwater (Naga, Murlocs, Sea Giants, Lobstrokk, etc), Mountain (Dwarves (Ironforge or Wildhammer or Dark Iron), Goat-men, Gryphons, Cloud Giants, etc), etc.

"Biome" would be too broad for one contest, but a particular Biome for each contest could work, I think.



(Crossed out "Underwater" since it'd pretty much be "Naga naga naga")

 

[VeljkoM]

Aren't all those choice from previous contests and as Kyrib0 rightfully pointed out not explained at all. Though for Custom resource I do believe it means adding 3rd resource mechanic, like making Mana used for training units and making buildings.

Anyway I pick "innovative" because honestly the way I see it, it allows you to do anything. Free theme do what you want just be creative.

 

[Bannar]

This poll is.. wierd. Innovation & custom resource? Those 2 should be combined.
Anyway, I'd like combination: custom resource (which is innovative) with improved melee. For example, when talking about hums, there are dwarfs, elves and humans -> let one of them go extinct and fill the hole with others, keeping in mind that you fill that hole basing on "resource" you want to add.

Undead race might be better example: let us remove bashees, dread lords, nerubs and other shit, and just stick with skeleton-corpse fighers: resource - corpses.

@Kyrbi0
With "custom resource" I wanted to say: addition of single, unique resource that your race can benefit from / or is required at some point when: expanding your town, casting a spell, training a unit. Gold and wood are still there.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Aren't all those choice from previous contests and as Kyrib0 rightfully pointed out not explained at all. Though for Custom resource I do believe it means adding 3rd resource mechanic, like making Mana used for training units and making buildings.

Anyway I pick "innovative" because honestly the way I see it, it allows you to do anything. Free theme do what you want just be creative.

Ah, that makes more sense (for "Custom Resource"). Well then I won't vote for that.

Also, while "Innovative" sounds fun, I have to say that in my experience, 'true' creativity is found with constraints. Given a blank piece of paper & a pencil, many artists are stymied. But give them some constraints (what might be seen as 'limits to creativity') and you have some of the best artwork in the world.

This poll is.. wierd. Innovation & custom resource? Those 2 should be combined.
Anyway, I'd like combination: custom resource (which is innovative) with improved melee. For example, when talking about hums, there are dwarfs, elves and humans -> let one of them go extinct and fill the hole with others, keeping in mind that you fill that hole basing on "resource" you want to add.

Undead race might be better example: let us remove bashees, dread lords, nerubs and other shit, and just stick with skeleton-corpse fighers: resource - corpses.

Ah, so that's what is meant by "Improved Melee". I'd really rather call that "Alternative Melee" or "Replacement Race Melee" or something...

That makes more sense... Though that might be a little lopsided (i.e. take the Alliance; 3 Humans, 4 Elves, and 5 Dwarves; replacing Dwarves is a lot more work (& potentially more impressive) than replacing Humans or Elves) as well as unclear (i.e. take the Undead; what are the "sub-races"? Many people have argued long & hard as to what they are (myself included ). Ghosts/Skellies/Demons? Living (Cult)/Dead/Nerubian/Demon/Mech/Other?. Night Elves are a little better... But not much (see one of my earlier posts in another topic)).

Also, I would be kinda sad to see someone do what you suggest (removing all the Ghosts/Nerubian/Demons/etc from Undead & replacing with Skeletons); those are all the things that make that race interesting. Otherwise it's just bonesbonesbonesbones... But meh.

 

[Bannar]

Lol, those were just examples of what one might do to alter melee race instead of creating whole new one. Without removal of some stuff, you can not add anything new cuz there is no gap to fill.

 

[VeljkoM]

Also, while "Innovative" sounds fun, I have to say that in my experience, 'true' creativity is found with constraints. Given a blank piece of paper & a pencil, many artists are stymied. But give them some constraints (what might be seen as 'limits to creativity') and you have some of the best artwork in the world.

True but I just don't like all other choice which are either limiting (tier 1, mini), hard to implement (how exactly to make nomads in wc3 engine?) or I dislike (the already used super unit, improved races, no imports). In case of Mini race it isn't constraint as the end product is not race that fits wc3 gameplay. In the end mini-race is just handicaped full race and I see no reason why not to put the extra effort to get a finished product instead of half-baked one. If I already made all basic units and hero why not add 2-3 more units to fill the gap I think it needs to be filled? That is my opinion though, everyone else of course has right to chose and there aren't right or wrong choices. I will compete regardless what result is.

This poll is.. wierd. Innovation & custom resource? Those 2 should be combined.
Anyway, I'd like combination: custom resource (which is innovative) with improved melee. For example, when talking about hums, there are dwarfs, elves and humans -> let one of them go extinct and fill the hole with others, keeping in mind that you fill that hole basing on "resource" you want to add.

Undead race might be better example: let us remove bashees, dread lords, nerubs and other shit, and just stick with skeleton-corpse fighers: resource - corpses.

Yes custom resource is innovative and so is be race switching and nomads. Difference is that under just "innovative" not everyone would have same innovation implemented differently, for example under custom resource everyone would have same feature and that is custom resources. Though it is better to have a more clear theme then "innovative" but as I said I didn't like offered choices much.

Improved Melee would indeed be more correctly Altered Blizzard races. I myself did undead where I concentrated more on skeletons and ghost and it felt more "undead" than wc3 undead (I just think bones and necromancy is more fitting then flesh and ice magic). Of course you don't have to at all remove sub-races, the goal is to make different gameplay, reinvention of the 4 existing races (5 if we count naga). Unless you want to make pure humans you have no reason to remove elves and dwarves, heck you can add more sub-races like gnomes and if allowed worgen. Gameplay first and then appearance, otherwise you can just import models and call it a "race".

Honestly in the end I guess custom resource or nomads are the only right choices as others were done. Oh or Biome if it counts.

 

[Kyrbi0]

True but I just don't like all other choice which are either limiting (tier 1, mini), hard to implement (how exactly to make nomads in wc3 engine?) or I dislike (the already used super unit, improved races, no imports). In case of Mini race it isn't constraint as the end product is not race that fits wc3 gameplay. In the end mini-race is just handicaped full race and I see no reason why not to put the extra effort to get a finished product instead of half-baked one. If I already made all basic units and hero why not add 2-3 more units to fill the gap I think it needs to be filled? That is my opinion though, everyone else of course has right to chose and there aren't right or wrong choices. I will compete regardless what result is.

Ah dannae, man. I guess it's just my interpretation of "Mini-race", but I feel like it can be just as good, varied & interesting as a full-race... Just a lot less work. More like a "slice" of a race, a "representation" that can be expanded. Avoiding all the messy tiers & multiple role-fulfillment & heroes (gosh, heroes are the hardest part, usually) & extensive upgrades... Just focus on the core of a particular Faction & pump it out. Easy, fast, fun. Easier to make, easier to test, easier to judge.

All the problems (with the Naga, primarily) you've pointed out (and I will get around to replying to those in the other thread) can be resolved or modified, as far as I can tell. It's just the base of an idea. : )

Oh or Biome if it counts.

Yay!

 

[Kingz]

I do not understand most of the poll options.
It would be awesome if there were a short description for each option.

And i doubt i am the only one.

 

[eubz]

Updating this soon with some descriptions. I think mini-race and 1-tire race are just the same, so if it is possible for these to be fused, I think someone powerful should do the honor fusing them to one.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Updating this soon with some descriptions. I think mini-race and 1-tire race are just the same, so if it is possible for these to be fused, I think someone powerful should do the honor fusing them to one.

Cool... Although if memory serves, the user has very little (read: none ) ability to modify the Poll once it's out. If you want, one of us can just re-type it up?

 

[eubz]

Well, I'm thinking of poll modification. That would be better if it's possible.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Of course it would. But like I said, I believe you'll find you cannot modify the poll (if you can, not much). So like I said, "if you want, one of us can just re-type it up?".

 

[eubz]

Of course it would. But like I said, I believe you'll find you cannot modify the poll (if you can, not much). So like I said, "if you want, one of us can just re-type it up?".

OK, that would be nice. Just re-type it up.

 

[VeljkoM]

Anyone else feels like... there is lack of voters or something. When does the poll close?

 

[Kingz]

If the theme fits i might participate as i like creating new content.
There aren't a lot of voters because probably not many people will participate.

Edit:

That being said, is there an ETA when this will be starting and how long will it last? I am aware it probably won't be soon.

 

[eubz]

First post was edited with explanations. I vote for mini-race/1-tire-race.

 

[VeljkoM]

Custom Resource - All resource should be imported and new-to-the-eye

That's not what the suggestion for custom resource was about. It was about adding 3rd resource along with gold and wood to the gameplay of faction. Example make Corpses be key for undead unit production, or mana to be used for constructing units and buildings. This isn't modeling contests, we don't compete who can make best eye candy.

 

[Kingz]

I am voting for custom resource.

A lot of themes aren't of my liking tho (no imports was done already, mini race is meh). Only real themes id consider joining are nomad/custom resource/super unit. (improved melee/innovation seems too easy since you are building atop one of 5 existing races)

Edit:

How long will be the poll be up? Also we should probably consult on the date of start, at least the persons who do intend to join.

 

[eubz]

How long will be the poll be up?

This poll will close on 07-10-2014 at 12:03 PM

 

[Kingz]

Ye im blind, thanks for pointing out the obvious

Edit:

Any idea how much will the poll influence the results? Since i do not like public voting due to the fact people vote for their friends so id like to know ahead if they will be the deciding factor in a big way (last techtree contest i joined was a big show of how bad it is, feel free to check why).

 

[VeljkoM]

Isn't it usually 20% of final score? Judging was always more important thankfully.

Also only Nomads and Custom resources are only themes never done.
3rd Teachtree was Campaign-mini race, 4th was Improved Melee (also not that easy, you need to completely remake race), 5th was Innovation, 6th was No Imports, 7th was Super Unit (Just check the archives). I honestly think poll was made prematurely before we actual had real themes (Biome for example came to late).

 

[Kingz]

It was 30% so far, but i don't even like that it's so much.

And the reason why is obvious:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/poll-depository-353/techtree-contest-6-poll-214703/

28 votes for something that ended up 6th place.
My entry won with 3 votes.
2nd place had 1 vote.
3rd place had 3 votes.

It was so obvious the poll was being manipulated.
I really hope THW gets some better rules concerning poll voting, since it's one of the reasons i dislike participation in contests.

 

[VeljkoM]

Well ideal would be that poll votes would be counted only if voter would explain his reason for voting for particular person. Guess then each voter would be a mini judge. It wouldn't fix manipulation completely but would be an improvement.

 

[rulerofiron99]

I'm quite fond of my custom resources, so that's my vote.

 

[Kyrbi0]

OK, that would be nice. Just re-type it up.

I honestly think poll was made prematurely before we actual had real themes (Biome for example came to late).

So did you still want me to type it up? I hate to have to move all our conversations over, but this Poll could use a bit of re-organization (primarily due to the difference between "Role" (how the contest is run) and "Theme" (what's the main idea/concept we're all shooting for)

Any idea how much will the poll influence the results? Since i do not like public voting due to the fact people vote for their friends so id like to know ahead if they will be the deciding factor in a big way (last techtree contest i joined was a big show of how bad it is, feel free to check why).

Isn't it usually 20% of final score? Judging was always more important thankfully.

It was 30% so far, but i don't even like that it's so much.
And the reason why is obvious:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/poll-depository-353/techtree-contest-6-poll-214703/

28 votes for something that ended up 6th place.
My entry won with 3 votes.
2nd place had 1 vote.
3rd place had 3 votes.

It was so obvious the poll was being manipulated.
I really hope THW gets some better rules concerning poll voting, since it's one of the reasons i dislike participation in contests.

Well ideal would be that poll votes would be counted only if voter would explain his reason for voting for particular person. Guess then each voter would be a mini judge. It wouldn't fix manipulation completely but would be an improvement.

I would prefer if poll voters would need first to explain why they voted. Count only votes that had posted review on thread. Wouldn't be perfect solution but at least contestants would get some feedback.

You guys are all hitting on an excellent point. Thing is,
I
have
literally
been
making
this
point
for
years
now.

So I say to you, Kingz, what I said to VeljkoM:
Feel
free
to
join
me.



:<

Seriously, though, we should think about a coalition or social group or something. I too believe that Voting & Polling here is massively inadequate for the task (if you check the Modeling Contest #25, you'll see that I implemented both the "explain your vote or else" bit as well as the "lower the percentage the vote gives" bit. I think it helped, though it's just a small step).

I'm quite fond of my custom resources, so that's my vote.

"Your custom resources"? You do know it's about creating & utilizing a 'tertiary' resource source (i.e. Corpses for Undead), right?

 

[rulerofiron99]

"Your custom resources"? You do know it's about creating & utilizing a 'tertiary' resource source (i.e. Corpses for Undead), right?

Of course. In a previous mapping contest, I used terrain as a resource. Workers would harvest grass, which then gets replaced with dirt. If you look at my sig, I also made a system to harvest oil as a third resource.

Some ideas I have for this one:
- Harvest emotions. Hate/anger gathered by being near combat, happiness gathered by keeping civilians safe, vengeance gathered by losing units.
- Item as resouces. Using gold/stone/lumber/goods/weapons, a system where ever resource unit is a item in on the map or in a storehouse somewhere, like in the game Stronghold.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Of course. In a previous mapping contest, I used terrain as a resource. Workers would harvest grass, which then gets replaced with dirt. If you look at my sig, I also made a system to harvest oil as a third resource.

Ah. I stand corrected.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Alright, everyone; with eubz' permission & help (indirectly), I encourage you to take a look at this new poll. Let's get this thing going!

 

[Kingz]

If this poll is now obsolete, it should be closed and moved somewhere.
To avoid confusion.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Welp, it's "obsolete" except for all the good discussion (& some of the posts the new poll links to) that are here.