tech-tree contest #9 suggestions/discussions

[eubz]

For all who love altered melee, let us have the discussion on what will be the next tech-tree contest's theme.

Let's do this now before the close of mini mapping contest: map size limited.

My idea: race renewed. This means that a contestant will select any of the four war3 races and create a new race based on it. The new race should have 50% resemblance to the default race. Whilst 50% will be new to everyone.

Edit:
So, we have the following ideas:

-Nomads -1-tier race -switching race -Improved Melee -Innovation -No imports -super unit -Custom resource -mini-race

Shall we have more before we create a poll?
This list includes some of the past themes.

 

[kari0003]

Hi!
I'm looking forward to see this Tech-Three contest firing off

My idea for it:
I always wanted to see Nomad races. I reckon it was a suggestion a few contests back now, and I'd really like to see it hosted.

The main idea is that you have to create a race that does not have a main base (in the traditional meaning of it). The most viable interpretation of this is of course that you have to move around with your units.

This would be great because contestants could bring a lot new to the gameplay part which -in my opinion- should bet the most important aspect of creating a new race.

 

[BlackKnightTGS]

That sounds interesting, I assume the 50% resemblance is referring to the race's mechanics primarily (ie, Night Elves' night advantages and usage of trees, etc), right?

As for any other ideas, I'd like to see a Nomad-styled race too, races that have to constantly be on the move and can easily relocate. Or perhaps a race with "two sides", similarly to the Masari from Universe At War. As in, for example, an order of knights that can switch between "Light" and "Dark", each side effecting their units in various ways.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Yeah! It's summer, let's get some more contests going on! And "Techtree" Contests are some of my favorite.

My idea: race renewed. This means that a contestant will select any of the four war3 races and create a new race based on it. The new race should have 50% resemblance to the default race. Whilst 50% will be new to everyone.

Ooh, that's not a bad idea. Though, I'm kinda of the opinion that "full-races" are a pretty big venture to undertake; let's seriously contemplate doing "Mini-Factions" in the style of the Naga (1 hero, 1 tier, basic/advanced melee, basic/advanced ranged, siege, flyer, caster, worker.)

Personally, I'm in love with any theme that focuses on the regular Warcraft world; normal races, that is.

That sounds interesting, I assume the 50% resemblance is referring to the race's mechanics primarily (ie, Night Elves' night advantages and usage of trees, etc), right?

Naw, I think he's talking more about raw units/Heroes/buildings; the 'make-up' of the race. So say take the Alliance and keep the Dwarves, then build a "new Alliance" (or perhaps "Dwarven Alliance") from there.

 

[VeljkoM]

Any chance there can be a list of themes of all the former contests?

Nomad suggestion is so far most creative one and gives lots of freedom, you can pretty much chose any race and you are forced to think outside of box. Bad side I think is that it will be hard to make such race in warcraft 3 gameplay, balanced even harder and custom resource lacking for mobile buildings.

Remaking original races is more limiting at race choice but I kinda would like to see reinventing. You should though avoid using original units, heroes and features. And by that I don't mean you shouldn't use ingame models but change stats, abilities etc. Undead could build units by raising them from graveyard (you'll have to find a way how to prevent player from going over the pop limit).

Or perhaps a race with "two sides", similarly to the Masari from Universe At War. As in, for example, an order of knights that can switch between "Light" and "Dark", each side effecting their units in various ways.

Wouldn't really call them knights, they are atlantian (aryan humans) aliens. I always thought Hirerachy and Novus were more creative anyway. As for switching thing you are basically making two races. Not bad idea reminds me of Pirates of the Caribbean race that was human at day and undead at night, worgen race could use it too (strange thing that worgen race ideas that I saw completely ignored that feature).

Campaign race contest was made in 2010, was my first contest ever.

I myself am up for any idea though I guess I would go for creep race theme (Probably done already...). Out of these ideas I think I would pick race remaking because nomads are less likely to have many finished entries I think...

 

[Kyrbi0]

Any chance there can be a list of themes of all the former contests?

Going off of this bountiful resource...

#1 - Untitled (just techtrees)
#2 - Altered Melee
#3 - ?
#4 - Improved Melee Race
#5 - Innovation
#6 - No Imports
#7 - (Paired) Super Unit

It's been almost 2 years (woah) now since the last one, so I say copying an old theme isn't out of the question...

 

[VeljkoM]

Um 8# Seal of Magus was last one (2013 contest), results came out in April. And 3# was called "Race Building contest" and was campaign race, well "mini race". Also reminds me why I hate polls...

 

[Kyrbi0]

Um 8# Seal of Magus was last one (2013 contest), results came out in April. And 3# was called "Race Building contest" and was campaign race, well "mini race". Also reminds me why I hate polls...

Huh, right you are; surprised BlackDeath hasn't updated it.

Yeah, and I really didn't like #8 (or rather, I really liked the idea & fought aggressively for a reasonable interpretation of it, but was ignored), which explains why I forgot about it.

Huh, I never heard of that third one... Interesting how 67Chrome got all apologetic about "stealing the idea/info/guidelines from Wc3C", when that very contest (the Wc3C one) was my idea, which I 'stole' from THW in the first place xD (to make better, actually, which I feel we definitely accomplished).

Oh what a crazy, mixed-up world we live in. ^_^

 

[VeljkoM]

Well Contest 2# was failure so there weren't teachtree contests after it. I guess that is why it was also renamed Race Building and it resurrected genre. The only reason why I remember 3rd one because it was my first contest. Oh and I sent PM to BlackDeath.

But anyway seems campaign and race remakes were done. So guess unless we are ok with doing same theme again leaves Nomads and Two Sides thing. Looking at history themes were always rather open...

 

[Bannar]

Contest idea: custom resource.

Can even be undead-like: corpses.
Let the race have special way/requirents for some units/spells that come from such resource.

 

[eubz]

I am wondering what does super unit mean?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Basically a very powerful unit; comparable perhaps to Naga Royal Guard or the Protoss Mothership. If you've played Age of Mythology, consider also the Titans (Greek/Norse/Egyptian/Atlantean). Very expensive, difficult to produce, extremely powerful, usually limited in number (i.e. 1), etc.

 

[kari0003]

Super Unit theme meant that you had to create a race revolving around one 'super unit' which is either has some special functionality in the race (eg. only it can produce units) or just really strong (eg. The whole race is workers + 1 strong hero fighter).

This was a good theme back then, becasue we agreed that techtree contest themes should be about the functionalities (eg. two faces, nomad) of the new faction, not the "theme" (eg. Troll race, greek mythology race) of it. Contestants should mainly get points of how good they implemented the race mechanics, not on how fitting greek horseman they could find.


New idea: Race without micro. The race's gameplay should fully depend on strategic choices, not on micro plays. (for example you can tell your units where to go, but AI controls them.) I dont know if this is even a valid idea, would be really hard to balance it, and to make it exciting to play.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Before it gets lost, I have to make something clear. It's something I've said since these things first started; it's what I brought to Wc3C (and, I believe, what contributed so highly to it's success), and it's what I've said for each contest since.

Mini-races.

I really think a full-on techtree, with all the requirements for balance, resources, creativity & implementation, is simply too great a burden on any one user. No other contest requires an endeavor of that magnitude from it's entrants. As an ardent Race-Maker & lover of Lore, I can tell you that to make it "right", it takes time.

Still, I love the idea of designing Factions & competing against others in that function, and feel this can be effectively executed in the manner prescribed.

Essentially, the goal is "to create a '5th-race addition', in the style of the Naga from the campaign." This simple formula provides both the format (i.e. 1 hero, ~7 units, basic buildings & unit roles, etc) and the setting/balance parameters (i.e. with the existing 4 races).

I feel this provides the greatest amount of accessibility, maximizing contestants and minimizing extraneous effort. This in turn will encourage more frequent & popular contests in general.

This was a good theme back then, becasue we agreed that techtree contest themes should be about the functionalities (eg. two faces, nomad) of the new faction, not the "theme" (eg. Troll race, greek mythology race) of it. Contestants should mainly get points of how good they implemented the race mechanics, not on how fitting greek horseman they could find.

Really? I would've loved to been in that conversation. I'm not so sure I agree with that... Well, I can agree that the last bit there is a problem ("who can find the coolest resources" and/or "who can best use the only viable X model"), but I rather like these Faction Contests to be about what you call "Themes"... Or, well, I like to have that option available to me. I guess, if the 'functionality' (I'm gonna go with "Role" for consistency) is well-picked enough & unnecessarily not con-/re-strictive... Yeah.

 

[VeljkoM]

There is a problem with Mini-race idea besides it already been done. Last time people simply made full races just removed tier research from buildings and used different ways to restrict more powerful units. The only real benefit is that you need to make less heroes but everything else stays. And Naga campaign race is bad example anyway as it completely unbalanced compared to other races as they can make top tier units at tier 1 which made the weaker units pointless. Naga just looks ugly and unfinished.

Yeah easy theme would benefit by attracting more contestants and hopefully have more then 4 final entries unlike last contest. But we shouldn't change the point of contest in the first place and that is to make a full race. Yes it takes time but people have been doing it for the past several years.

Anyway I think contests were usually judged by race appearance, gameplay mechanics, balance, legion (your army) and originality. So while appearance of race does mater it is 1/5th of the score.

 

[eubz]

I already posted the suggestions. Anything new here?

 

[Kyrbi0]

I already posted the suggestions. Anything new here?

Ah, I see. No, aside from this conversation (which can continue to take place), I think that's plenty of options for a Poll (more than enough). I might add "Limited Import" as an option in there (as I rather like "No Imports" for stimulating creativity, but fear that there are only so many options for such a race; could be wrong. "Limited Import", like maybe 1, might allow just the bit of 'stretch' needed to really boost the potential choices). I've got my internship starting in 2.5 weeks, so let's get this started!

There is a problem with Mini-race idea besides it already been done. Last time people simply made full races just removed tier research from buildings and used different ways to restrict more powerful units. The only real benefit is that you need to make less heroes but everything else stays.

"Already been done", true... But quite some time ago (years, IIRC?). More importantly, I disagree with the idea that each contest has to be "some big new idea"; maybe in a Modelling Contest, because tapping artists out for "steampunk" and then "mech" and then "futuristic" might be a little draining on them... But these contests are infrequent enough (and more importantly, the Theme being proposed is de-limiting enough; every race is still available, it's just a matter of size & presentation) that I think it's more than OK.

Also, not sure what you mean here by "full races with removed tier research". The whole "using different ways to restrict more powerful units" makes sense, though, and resolves your concern in the next question I think.

...And Naga campaign race is bad example anyway as it completely unbalanced compared to other races as they can make top tier units at tier 1 which made the weaker units pointless. Naga just looks ugly and unfinished.

I'll concede that the Naga aren't the ideal example (due to the, yes, overpowered nature of the race (I believe Blizzard did that to compensate for having a "miniature race", however), and the Royal Guard in general), but they are the best we have and, in my opinion, more than good enough. The general idea is all there.

And I would argue otherwise; by what metric do the Naga look 'ugly'? I think they are a fascinating & colorful addition to the game, really well-built in their theme of "coral/sunken ruins/scales/fins/tridents/etc", and do almost everything the bigger races do (attack, defense, siege, magic, flying, etc).

Anyway I think contests were usually judged by race appearance, gameplay mechanics, balance, legion (your army) and originality. So while appearance of race does mater it is 1/5th of the score.

I see your point, but I'm not sure where I was even debating the issue of "race appearance". :<

Yeah easy theme would benefit by attracting more contestants and hopefully have more then 4 final entries unlike last contest. But we shouldn't change the point of contest in the first place and that is to make a full race. Yes it takes time but people have been doing it for the past several years.

The "point" of the contest is up for debate, and to me, it's never been that we 'have' to make a full race. It's to design an interesting, creative & cohesive techtree that shows good Design principles & is fun to play. Or whatever, I may add to that later. Anyway, it's to make a techtree, and truncating the task to a more doable "mini-race" not only makes it easier & more approachable, but easier to test & judge, more cohesive... Overall better. Any good mini-race can be successfully expanded to a good full-race, I should think.

And on the topic of 'having more entries'... I will simply say that "by their fruits ye shall know them". If anyone wants to see what kind of contest is more successful & more productive, one need only look to this (poll found here) as well as this, to see the fruits of such a contest. 143 pages, 14 entries (out of an initial, what, 20-30?); it was one of the single-most productive & exciting contests that site ever featured (next to the awexome Hero Contests).

 

[VeljkoM]

"Already been done", true... But quite some time ago (years, IIRC?). More importantly, I disagree with the idea that each contest has to be "some big new idea"; maybe in a Modelling Contest, because tapping artists out for "steampunk" and then "mech" and then "futuristic" might be a little draining on them... But these contests are infrequent enough (and more importantly, the Theme being proposed is de-limiting enough; every race is still available, it's just a matter of size & presentation) that I think it's more than OK.

Also, not sure what you mean here by "full races with removed tier research". The whole "using different ways to restrict more powerful units" makes sense, though, and resolves your concern in the next question I think.

Was done 4 years ago but that is irrelevant I agree. Never said though idea must be big was just saying that in the end result will be closer to full race then mini-race so why not encourage people to make that step? Difference is 3 heroes (the biggest difference though not to be taken lightly), 2 casters and probably 2 more air/random units. Also all of the themes are gameplay based you can chose race yourself. Why not make sci fi nomads?

I'll concede that the Naga aren't the ideal example (due to the, yes, overpowered nature of the race (I believe Blizzard did that to compensate for having a "miniature race", however), and the Royal Guard in general), but they are the best we have and, in my opinion, more than good enough. The general idea is all there.

And I would argue otherwise; by what metric do the Naga look 'ugly'? I think they are a fascinating & colorful addition to the game, really well-built in their theme of "coral/sunken ruins/scales/fins/tridents/etc", and do almost everything the bigger races do (attack, defense, siege, magic, flying, etc).

Well they are broken like other examples murgul reavers cost 120 gold (then again pointless unit as myrmidon are tier 1) yet attack as grunts, couatl 2 food, parasite can't be dispelled etc. They are broken and are at same time overpowered as their units are tough and come early but are underpowered as they lack choices since they are to simple. And "ugly" I did not mean for appearance I would never do that to naga. What I find ugly is that they are unfinished and just beg to be made equal to other 4. And they can't do everything as other races like healing and canceling enemy magic for example, for defense they only have towers, no item shop, without tiers they can't have more then 1 hero even with tavern on map. I personally just find mini-race more limiting then any other choice as it limits the content.

I see your point, but I'm not sure where I was even debating the issue of "race appearance". :<

Oh sorry bout that. Was commenting about the talk you and kari0003 had. Was just pointing out that appearance of race does mater but the functionality take higher priority. I feel like I missed the point anyway.

The "point" of the contest is up for debate, and to me, it's never been that we 'have' to make a full race. It's to design an interesting, creative & cohesive techtree that shows good Design principles & is fun to play. Or whatever, I may add to that later. Anyway, it's to make a techtree, and truncating the task to a more doable "mini-race" not only makes it easier & more approachable, but easier to test & judge, more cohesive... Overall better. Any good mini-race can be successfully expanded to a good full-race, I should think.

And on the topic of 'having more entries'... I will simply say that "by their fruits ye shall know them". If anyone wants to see what kind of contest is more successful & more productive, one need only look to this (poll found here) as well as this, to see the fruits of such a contest. 143 pages, 14 entries (out of an initial, what, 20-30?); it was one of the single-most productive & exciting contests that site ever featured (next to the awexome Hero Contests).

You have the point but I still feel Full race is much better at achieving your point then mini race. You can't judge the balance really as the only thing to compared to it would be another mini race. Full race allows for far more options and creativity since it has more content (I am biased here as I prefer lots of units (each with its own role) and upgrades). Oh and yeah first thing I did with my mini race was add tiers in main building and add heroes since that was basically what I was lacking.

The last point I call unfair as it is not on Hive and they were from 2009. Last two contests on hive had less end results. The good old times of Teachtree contests seem to have ended here.

 

[eubz]

Poll is up http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...tree-contest-9-theme-poll-253920/#post2546537

 

[Kyrbi0]

Poll is up http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...tree-contest-9-theme-poll-253920/#post2546537

Awexome! Posted.

Was done 4 years ago but that is irrelevant I agree. Never said though idea must be big was just saying that in the end result will be closer to full race then mini-race so why not encourage people to make that step? Difference is 3 heroes (the biggest difference though not to be taken lightly), 2 casters and probably 2 more air/random units. Also all of the themes are gameplay based you can chose race yourself. Why not make sci fi nomads?

Mostly addressed in the other thread. Basically, though, I would argue that it's a lot more than 3 heroes, 2 casters & 2 more units. A good mini-race could have as few as 8 (Worker - Basic/Advanced Melee - Basic/Advanced Ranged - Flying - Caster - Siege). Possibly even fewer if the contestant decides to combine roles (i.e. Naga have 7; Coautl is a Flyer and Advanced Ranged).

Well they are broken like other examples murgul reavers cost 120 gold (then again pointless unit as myrmidon are tier 1) yet attack as grunts, couatl 2 food, parasite can't be dispelled etc. They are broken and are at same time overpowered as their units are tough and come early but are underpowered as they lack choices since they are to simple. And "ugly" I did not mean for appearance I would never do that to naga. What I find ugly is that they are unfinished and just beg to be made equal to other 4. And they can't do everything as other races like healing and canceling enemy magic for example, for defense they only have towers, no item shop, without tiers they can't have more then 1 hero even with tavern on map. I personally just find mini-race more limiting then any other choice as it limits the content.

Responded to some of this in the other thread...

So then perhaps "Naga" is not the ideal example to compare it to. I would argue that all the things you mentioned can simply be done or done right or done better in what the Contestants would put out, though (make things balanced, provide for healing/anti-magic/defense...). Item shops are dumb & time-consuming, though. xD

You have the point but I still feel Full race is much better at achieving your point then mini race. You can't judge the balance really as the only thing to compared to it would be another mini race. Full race allows for far more options and creativity since it has more content (I am biased here as I prefer lots of units (each with its own role) and upgrades). Oh and yeah first thing I did with my mini race was add tiers in main building and add heroes since that was basically what I was lacking.

Responded to this a bit... But while I agree, full-races are cooler, for the purposes of a contest, a mini-race is just perfect.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'balance', but as far as I'm concerned, a mini-race can be just as balanced as a full race. "Balance" to me would be "wins/loses about half the time against X race" (i.e. 'viable' to play). It should be fun to play with, fun to play against. Like the other 4!

The last point I call unfair as it is not on Hive and they were from 2009. Last two contests on hive had less end results. The good old times of Teachtree contests seem to have ended here.

Nonsense. If I find a good idea anywhere else in the world, or see something being done a certain way that works, why not bring it here & make our stuff better? And how does one tell if something 'works'? "By their fruits", hence my comparison.

Let's not let the "good old days" of Techtree contests end (t)here; let's bring them back! I fully believe it's possible. But things have to change, in my opinion.