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Stop the CASC madness

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There are so many ways they could have made their tools more future proof but did not due to their own stupidity or arrogance...
Doesn't that also apply to Blizzard with those MPQ/CASC to some extend?
Edit// Also, all of those are hobby projects. Non of those have been designed to be supported 10y in the future and none are. Most 3rd party tools end development in 1-2-3y there are only singles that have survived longer.
I'd say that none of the current tools are going to survive more than a few years either.

Edit//
At least they did something for the community, not like others counter-arguing everything to feel superior.
This is not helpful for your argument or the topic.

regards
-Ned
 
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Steam firstly deploys the files from their steam server. Steam can also verify the files to check for errors. Sound familiar? Of course it does because this is exactly what BattleNet application does!
[ .. ]
checksums will work for any kind of file, whether casc, mpq, w3x wav docx or whatever though
 
At least they did something for the community, not like others counter-arguing everything to feel superior.
Not to get too off topic, but my Matrix Eater codebase has been through 3 different MPQ libraries, 2 BLP libraries and a BLP converter command line utility prior to that. Each time I found someone with a better API and system that was superior or had more features than the last. That's why my code loads MPQ data through the "Codebase" interface, and just as soon as I implement "CascCodebase" and two or three file fetching functions needed to provide that interface, my concern for this topic might decline somewhat.
But I wanted to pick out this quote because you said this while talking to the guy who wrote both the latest and greatest MPQ and BLP libraries that I am currently using. Just seemed like something to keep in mind.

Edit: So, basically, if you take DSG libraries, Oger-Lord's MDX parser, and transcribe Ghostwolf's viewer from JavaScript to Java, you basically can make your own model editor as good as mine probably.
 
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There are so many ways they could have made their tools more future proof but did not due to their own stupidity or arrogance...
If you're asking people to believe that in 20 years that your little modding tool you made in high school was still going to be used would you seriously believe them?

Take a good look at the modding tool lineage of just Warcraft 3. Very few tools that came out at the start are used today because they were replaced by something someone made later that was either just plain better or more compatible with later computer build layouts that didn't exist back then, and if they weren't replaced it was because nothing came along and did it better or made it unusable yet.

Arguing about future proofing only works on a theoretical level when actually predicting the future because that is something that you can't control, and is a useless thought exercise at best when using it in retrospect.

I designed my custom campaign with future proofing in mind, but over the past couple years it turns out I still had to fix things because there was no way to predict that something that would work perfectly fine in one patch would just plain not work in the next one you didn't know was coming.
 
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Dr Super Good

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If you're asking people to believe that in 20 years that your little modding tool you made in high school was still going to be used would you seriously believe them?
Yes one would. That is how a lot of software is still in use today. If your tool is useful, expect it to be used well beyond when you think everyone would have stopped using it.
Arguing about future proofing only works on a theoretical level when actually predicting the future because that is something that you can't control, and is a useless thought exercise at best when using it in retrospect.
For most of the tools that will have problem, like Warcraft III model editor, if the author provided the full source code it would likely take only 1 hour to fix it to be CASC compatible right now. Too bad in this example they only provided part of the source code, meaning that this is not possible to do, meaning that people made this topic because they will not be able to use it anymore.
What's your take on how making tools more future proof?
Open sourcing them after you give up maintaining them is a start.

Additionally one should not couple them directly to file systems like MPQ in case the MPQ to CASC conversion happened. In such a case one could have a plain file system fall back so people in worst case could use a CASC explorer, which is actively maintained, to extract all Warcraft III files into a plain file system for the tool to use.

It is not like they were not warned. MPQ0 was obsoleted a long time ago and Blizzard could have migrated to MPQ1, 2 or 3 any time since after World of Warcraft was first released. Instead they have finally migrated to CASC.
 
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我不太擅长英文,抱歉。
世界编辑器的中文翻译非常非常烂,没有人能看懂这些翻译。
我现在只希望找到方法,让我(或者其他人)可以对1.30版本的编辑器进行翻译。
就像以前那样,在根目录下放一个名叫“UI”和“Units”的文件夹。
----------------
I'm not very good at English. I'm sorry.

The Chinese translation of the world editor is so bad that no one can understand these translations.

Now I just want to find a way to let me (or others) be able to translate the 1.30 version of the editor.
As before, put a folder called "UI" and "Units" in the root directory.
 
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MPQ is both a file system and a file type. CASC is just a file system, with both offline cache and online availability.
i see

i however still fail to see how such a system would benefit war3 in any (realistic) way tho, you'd likely need a full rewrite of the code for it to be able to make use of the streaming feature (start playing with incomplete client), and even then, it'd be reasonably pointless because the initial download of it is still only a gibibyte while patches, whether you use casc or correct hierarchical mpq patches will only be a buncha mibibytes

and im pretty sure you wouldnt have to do anything to the bnet app/downloader to have it just well, download files
 

Dr Super Good

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and im pretty sure you wouldnt have to do anything to the bnet app/downloader to have it just well, download files
Yes however it still means they have to bundle the MPQs which complicates the deploy process. It also means they cannot mutate the file structure within the main MPQs, which might help from an organization point of view. Let us not forget that they might be trying to add proper localization support instead of the current hacky multi build approach.
 
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if you write a correct tool that builds mpq archives from a working directory it shouldn't take more than a few clicks and a minute of computing (hell, mpqedit could do that ..)

as for proper localisation support, idt mpqs would stop you from that? the problem isnt with the mpqs itself (there's been war3xlocal.mpq forever which was likely created for better localisation support) but rather the fact that a lot of things are hard coded into the executables
 
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Some of you seem to have a lot of knowledge related to CASC, so some questions

- In World of Warcraft, it currently must download a 80 Mb encryption table as well as a ~80 MB download list for each tiny hotfix, even if the main patch is only e.g. 20 MB, is this related to how CASC is working in general, the more often you patch, the larger the download, encryption list become?

- I also noticed that the WoW files seem to blow up from time to time I could save about ~12GB by just doing a fresh install, I mean we talk about Gigabyte, is this because there is no simple way to clean up CASC files which are not required anymore?
 

Dr Super Good

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if you write a correct tool that builds mpq archives from a working directory it shouldn't take more than a few clicks and a minute of computing (hell, mpqedit could do that ..)
Except why bother when you can just use the existing CASC system to deploy everything?
as for proper localisation support, idt mpqs would stop you from that? the problem isnt with the mpqs itself (there's been
war3xlocal.[COLOR=color: #666666]mpq
[/COLOR]
forever which was likely created for better localisation support) but rather the fact that a lot of things are hard coded into the executables
MPQ does not support proper localization mechanics. For example in StarCraft II I can change language from the game options and next time I exit it will automatically, via CASC, start downloading the required locale.

It is not witch craft or magic. CASC is tried and trust technology that people have been using for years already with minimal problems compared with MPQ.
- In World of Warcraft, it currently must download a 80 Mb encryption table as well as a ~80 MB download list for each tiny hotfix, even if the main patch is only e.g. 20 MB, is this related to how CASC is working in general, the more often you patch, the larger the download, encryption list become?
The download list is based on how many files are in the archive. WoW being 30-40GB will obviously have massive file lists. Number of patches has nothing to do with it, only number of files.

WoW only needs encryption tables to prevent spoilers. This is because CASC allows one to pre-download expansions before they are released world wide which without the encryption people could data mine and spoil. Most modern Blizzard games do not use encryption tables as far as I am aware because there is nothing to spoil. I do not see a reason why Warcraft III would use encryption tables since there is nothing left to spoil with such an old game.
- I also noticed that the WoW files seem to blow up from time to time I could save about ~12GB by just doing a fresh install, I mean we talk about Gigabyte, is this because there is no simple way to clean up CASC files which are not required anymore?
This is due to internal fragmentation inside the CASC data files. From time to time the BattleNet application does perform a "compact" but how much this reclaims I am unsure of. As patches roll out the archives should grow to some multiple of the current install size and remain stable around that as more space is recycled than reclaimed. I also think some deprecated data is retained, not all but some for some reason.

Instead of asking Blizzard not to use CASC, rather request that they build in an "optimize space" feature into the BattleNet application. This feature would defragment the CASC data files and reduce the CASC storage footprint back down to fresh install size. It would not need to download anything but might require 1-2 hours to perform on mechanical drives.
 
Do you feel a necessary for a Java CASC lib, too? What are you likely to do about that?

I don't think Wurst has to do any changes because maps will still be mpq archives. edit: actually, i could be wrong. maybe they need it for compiletime funcs?

Writing a Java CASC lib would probably be really useful for the community, but I'd say for now, it is better to just make a CLI version of zezula's lib here and run it for your program as necessary to fetch the resources you need. If I'm not mistaken, it is already cross-platform so you would just need someone to build a windows, macOS (I could do that), and linux version.

---

I don't really see them going back to mpq now that they've already made the conversion, especially since their patches are always so big and often failing for random reasons. I feel like they might be transitioning to the battle.net launcher, as DSG mentioned, and they probably get a lot of the verification/repair/patching tools/deployment process done for free if they configure wc3 to use CASC. If they stay in mpq they probably have to maintain all that themselves.

rn the main apps I see affected are the model editors, right? I'm not sure if they 100% stop working or if they just would need a different source for in-game textures. Might be worthwhile to mention what tools are broken with the change in the main post.

edit2: just realized CascLib can only read, not write. :< a bit of a bummer. Hopefully local files will still work at least.
 
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WoW only needs encryption tables to prevent spoilers. This is because CASC allows one to pre-download expansions before they are released world wide which without the encryption people could data mine and spoil. Most modern Blizzard games do not use encryption tables as far as I am aware because there is nothing to spoil. I do not see a reason why Warcraft III would use encryption tables since there is nothing left to spoil with such an old game.
2nd expansion, War3:After TFT confirmed ? :D

-Ned
 
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I agree with purge's reasoning for why Blizzard updated to CASC. For some developers the change will be annoying, but it's not too difficult to update. I have also been assuming they will move to CASC at some point for a while now.

rn the main apps I see affected are the model editors, right? I'm not sure if they 100% stop working or if they just would need a different source for in-game textures. Might be worthwhile to mention what tools are broken with the change in the main post.

edit2: just realized CascLib can only read, not write. :< a bit of a bummer. Hopefully local files will still work at least.

I think Wurst relies on the game MPQs for some things. @eejin will likely have to update HiveWE to support CASC as well. As for legacy programs, people should keep backups of an older patch to make sure they keep working. For those who don't want to keep backups of an older version of the game, a tool can be made to extract files from the CASC and rebuild the MPQs on the latest patch. Of course over time some paths may change so it won't work for all programs (JNGP), but I think the paths for models/textures will stay the same in order not to break custom maps.

Local files still works, at least on 1.30 PTR.
 
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Except why bother when you can just use the existing CASC system to deploy everything?
[ .. ]
because it'll delete 16 years of tools (gradually, unless you manually repack your post 1.30 client), and is generally a big fuck you to the entire modding community
MPQ does not support proper localization mechanics. For example in StarCraft II I can change language from the game options and next time I exit it will automatically, via CASC, start downloading the required locale.
[ .. ]
oh, now doesnt it
if you properly pack your localised stuff into war3xlocal.mpq you'd be able to do that anyways (you change the language setting and then it'll automatically download the correct new war3xlocal.mpq with your new, desired localisation)

mpqblabla.png

^ this is how the mpqs would look like, :thinking:

EDIT: As for the patching process failing; if we'd stay with mpqs and if what DSG's saying is true, then the downloader would just be downloading verbatim copies of whatever blizz chose to deploy to their update servers.
Unless it's a problem with the downloader (like, not verifying file integrity through checksums ?????) or the deployed mpqs (would be some hilarious basic epic fail, deploying a corrupted mpq file) i kinda can't see what else may go wrong tbh

file integrity checks should work anyways by comparing checksums for the mpq archives, that's a bad strawman argument tbh
 

Dr Super Good

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edit2: just realized CascLib can only read, not write. :< a bit of a bummer. Hopefully local files will still work at least.
I do not see them removing local files. For all we may know the game might still try to load and process mod.mpq or whatever was added recently on top of the CASC for the standard game data files.
@eejin will likely have to update HiveWE to support CASC as well.
Since he uses C++ it should be fairly easy to do thanks to the C++ CASC reference. Sure it might not work for Warcraft III immediately but it is so well maintained you can expect it to work in under a weak of going live.
because it'll delete 16 years of tools (gradually, unless you manually repack your post 1.30 client), and is generally a big fuck you to the entire modding community
No it will not... A lot of tools did not rely on the game MPQs at all. Those that did, if they did so sensibly, can use fake MPQs constructed with the assets extracted from CASC as mentioned by Trigger Happy.

Any open source tool written in C++ can be updated to interface with CASC in probably a few hours of work. Java based tools will probably need a month or so because no one has written a native CASC API for them yet.
oh, now doesnt it
if you properly pack your localised stuff into
war3xlocal.[COLOR=color: #666666]mpq[/COLOR]
you'd be able to do that anyways (you change the language setting and then it'll automatically download the correct new
war3xlocal.[COLOR=color: #666666]mpq[/COLOR]
with your new, desired localisation)
Except where does it place this?! Two files cannot share the same name... In StarCraft II you can have both locales installed at once, useful for internet cafes and such where players might want to regularly change the locale of their client to be native.
EDIT: As for the patching process failing; if we'd stay with mpqs and if what DSG's saying is true, then the downloader would just be downloading verbatim copies of whatever blizz chose to deploy to their update servers.
Unless it's a problem with the downloader (like, not verifying file integrity through checksums ?????) or the deployed mpqs (would be some hilarious basic epic fail, deploying a corrupted mpq file) i kinda can't see what else may go wrong tbh
Except why stick with MPQ0? They could go to MPQ4 instead! You will still be here complaining...

CASC likely simplifies the deployment procedure for updates. It is also actively maintained unlike MPQ. For that reason alone moving Warcraft III to it is a good idea as it means we will more likely see regular patches, possibly even hot fixes, and Warcraft III might take advantage of any future updates to the CASC system.
 
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[ .. ]
Except where does it place this?! Two files cannot share the same name... In StarCraft II you can have both locales installed at once, useful for internet cafes and such where players might want to regularly change the locale of their client to be native.
[ .. ]
war3xlocal-enUS.mpq, war3xlocal-deDE.mpq, war3xlocal-enGB.mpq, should probably not be too hard to have the client only load the selected locale mpq
[ .. ]
Except why stick with MPQ0? They could go to MPQ4 instead! You will still be here complaining...

CASC likely simplifies the deployment procedure for updates. It is also actively maintained unlike MPQ. For that reason alone moving Warcraft III to it is a good idea as it means we will more likely see regular patches, possibly even hot fixes, and Warcraft III might take advantage of any future updates to the CASC system.
are you suggesting war3 to drop mpq0 support
(hint that will end in fire because it'll delete 16 years of maps)
 
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What a joke thread this became. DSG white knighting poor Blizzard. That is the whole argument here. In fact, I haven't seen any responses from anyone on Blizzard in any thread here, the communication seems to be one sided either way. Truly a joke.

CASC allows for smaller updates? few kilobytes updates? MPQ does too. This is so completely irrelevant to the archive format I can't believe it's used as an argument.
If you want suggestions to how the same exact thing can be implemented using the existing MPQs, I can give a few, but I doubt you will care, otherwise you could have seen that immediately too.

CASC is not supported by the Blizzard launcher? oh, and yet since version 1.28 that semi-hidden launcher you are never told is installed on your computer, was used to update Warcraft 3, with MPQs.

So now that we are done with that, what are the actual benefits and negatives of changing?

+ CASC is presumably faster to read/write. I am going to assume that because it's newer and more modern, I didn't test it.
- Removes compatibility from all old modeling related tools, requiring the user to magically acquire these MPQs they can no longer get legally.

Let's get into these two points.

Does it matter if reading and writing is faster? no! Warcraft 3 is not disk bound, all of the resources are small, and loading other runtime data ultimately takes a lot more time than anything to do with disk resources.

Does removing compatibility matter? depends.
Blizzard hasn't released a single modding related tool since the very beginning, with Art Tools.
I doubt the Warcraft 3 team can give us anything on par today, not a 3ds Max add-on, nor a stand alone program.
That means that they, much like the community, yet again depend on the community (aka Retera) to build new tools.
Meanwhile say goodbye to most modeling tools, unless you illegally get MPQ files which is what Blizzard is forcing you.

Make of this what you will. Blizzard do not care about what any of us write either way.
 
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Kyrbi0

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You've got excellent insight to bring to conversations like this, GhostWolf; it's a shame it is so colored by pessimism.

Blizzard (through their representatives here at the Hive or elsewhere) not responding to us is not necessarily an indication of their apathy. After all these patches & threads & fulfilled requests & visits & such after over a decade of the game's existence, I don't understand how you can believe otherwise.
 
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Ao for one thing, in my eyes the whole casc story is a completely overblown hysteria. Sorry, i cannot see it any other way than this.

What will happen is the following:

1. Blizzard will implement Casc anyway. How long do you think they want to support a structure they moved away almost a decade ago? I am still very optimistic about the current changes, even more so since they already delivered with the most recent patches. So if they think they can work better with that, well go for it.

2. Our established programms will break. I think it is somewhat delusional to believe that this wouldnt happen at some point. For most people this will not change anything. The only thing that will cahnge is that we will need to have the mpqs saved somewhere in other folders form older versions, so we can still support the programs. It should not be a stretch to supply the people on the hive with them, too.

3. People will adapt. That is how these old programs come to live in the first place. There are already casc reader programs, and already looking at this thread shows that for our uses fitted programs could be in sight. Sadly, this to some degree overshoot my wisdom, so i wont be much of a help there.​


Overall, i see it pretty pragmatically: I know the change is coming, but i also know how to adapt to the change. If people don't want to change, either because they dont want to have programs coded for them in java but don't want to do it in another language or because it sounds like work (spoiler: it is), then these will probably be left behind. Its nothing that should be in blizzards obligation.

but what i think should be in blizzards hands is to make the transition to new tools as convenient as possible, like not locking the data away or stuff like that. But from what i read it shouldnt be the case.



The only real concern for me is what happens to maps which run with an imported mpq file in them. It could be that these get screwed big time and thesy need to be put on hold until the casc file tools get enhanced.
 
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the thing is they can't even delete mpq code from war3 or it'd delete all the old maps, they're actually bloating the client with (redundant) CASC code that exists in addition to the mpq one

so all it does is enabling blizz to use their CASC packing tools for war3, but then again you can just setup build directories and click mpqedit to have it automatically build an mpq archive from the build directory ..
 

Kyrbi0

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Lord Earthfire said:
... It should not be a stretch to supply the people on the hive with them, too....
This is one point that is still unknown; whether it is possible (file-size limits on the Hive), whether it is legal (how to verify CD keys among ourselves??), whether it is feasible (given the first two, will anyone want to get into that?)

It's fine for people like me, who have already had the MPQs tucked away in several places. But what about newcomers to Warcraft 3 modding (which any community desperately needs in order to stay alive); they will (presumably) not have access to those MPQs, and if they can't (see above) get them, well, all our best modeling software will, in lieu of being updated, refuse to work for them.
 
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[ .. ]
It's fine for people like me, who have already had the MPQs tucked away in several places. But what about newcomers to Warcraft 3 modding (which any community desperately needs in order to stay alive); they will (presumably) not have access to those MPQs, and if they can't (see above) get them, well, all our best modeling software will, in lieu of being updated, refuse to work for them.
^ this
 

Dr Super Good

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CASC is not supported by the Blizzard launcher? oh, and yet since version 1.28 that semi-hidden launcher you are never told is installed on your computer, was used to update Warcraft 3, with MPQs.
It was used to update with MPQs by treating the MPQs as full files. This is not very efficient from the deployment perspective as not only must users redownload entire MPQ files, but also it requires MPQitizing before deployment. The fact they removed the patch archive points towards it being annoying to generate, probably because it requires selecting a subset of files that changed when potentially every file might change.
Meanwhile say goodbye to most modeling tools, unless you illegally get MPQ files which is what Blizzard is forcing you.
Or hack one together by extracting the CASC archive into one of the MPQ files the third party tools load. I am sure the third party MPQ libraries they were built with would not know the difference! They might even load it in a WoW formatted MPQ. Someone could even make a build script to automate this process if both CASC and MPQ tools are present.
the thing is they can't even delete mpq code from war3 or it'd delete all the old maps, they're actually bloating the client with (redundant) CASC code that exists in addition to the mpq one
Lamest excuse ever... An entire MPQ library might take only a few kilobytes of code which only takes time when it executes.
so all it does is enabling blizz to use their CASC packing tools for war3, but then again you can just setup build directories and click mpqedit to have it automatically build an mpq archive from the build directory ..
Or they could just roll it out with CASC like all of their products...
 
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Okay.
Let me reiterate:
I understand that falling back to the default set of CASC tools is probably easier for Blizzard to deploy patches with, however reverting to the MPQ build isn't half as bad as you may make it out to be.
There's stuff like winmerge you can use to easily see which files have changed and which haven't from the latest build (or you could just save your changed files into a new, clean directory); also I kinda really do not see more than like 50 MiB worth of files getting changes (why'd they screw around with .blps and .mdxs all of the sudden anyways), so the scope of a potential war3patch.mpq should be manageable, really.

Because ultimatively what Kyrbi0 said is 100% true and any kind of inconvenience, especially one in such massive a scope, will slowly bleed out the (modding) community and is basically a big fuck you towards them.

(Actually, can we go back to the pre 1.28 patch process with the diff files so we do not have to archive every single version before it's too late so we can go back and review old replays; hell you don't even have to deploy your patches like that immediately, but creating & deplying them for later use so we can still apply an obsolete patch whenever for replaying games saved under a certain revision would be great, you know.)
 
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This is one point that is still unknown; whether it is possible (file-size limits on the Hive), whether it is legal (how to verify CD keys among ourselves??), whether it is feasible (given the first two, will anyone want to get into that?)

It's fine for people like me, who have already had the MPQs tucked away in several places. But what about newcomers to Warcraft 3 modding (which any community desperately needs in order to stay alive); they will (presumably) not have access to those MPQs, and if they can't (see above) get them, well, all our best modeling software will, in lieu of being updated, refuse to work for them.

Ok, i see the legal concerns here and you are right that even the current strategy to get a version of 1.26 (aka get a cracked version from one of the dota sites) isn't very promising.
I think for the time being, for one or two patches, it would be feasable to have the mpq's in a separate folder of the instalation and above that to stop supporting them. So the main installation would still contain them, but they don't need to be updated anymore (which i think is the main reason fot he change). This could clamp down each update after 1.3 and would give newcomers still the possibility to work with the tools.
 

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Ah, so suddenly actually the MPQ code IS there, and it's only a few kilobytes of code, and nothing bad will happen because one could create one's own MPQs...you are contradicting everything you wrote previously, and somehow still keeping a straight face. Impressive.
I am? Where are the contradictions?
why'd they screw around with .blps and .mdxs all of the sudden anyways
Possibly they could deploy high resolution textures? We know that they exist for at least some units like the Gryphon Rider as there is a 512x512 version of his texture used by the Storm Bolt missile where as the actual Gryphon Rider uses a separate 256x256 down sampled from the 512x512 version. Not sure if any other such textures exist, but at least the Gryphon Rider has one for some reason.
especially one in such massive a scope
Sounds like someone making a mountain out of a mole hill...
 
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You could possibly add them as local files, if you wanted. But asking Blizz to do so could be a good idea. Would probably be an easy update now that they have an efficient CASC update system (Technical challenge would be to gather them from wherever Blizzard stores them)

Edit: But we seem to often get off topic in this thread. Should we make another thread to compile, as a community, a list of our requirements and requests both for Blizzard and community developers alike of what we feel we would need to be able to mod Warcraft III in a post-CASC patch environment?
 
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Just throwing my own 2 cents here...

While I do understand people who are annoyed by the change, I still believe it is a step in the right direction, because let's not forget, that they could initially just have folders of files and use them locally, to make it "even easier" overall, but they used MPQ, why? Because at that time that was the best solution and would actually save space and ease updates overall. And we did not have tools to edit MPQs efficiently or models to begin with, it took enthusiast, such as Retera to make tools for you modmakers to use, but that does not mean that once they do not work it is the end.

However, it is not a good thing, that now it will take time to regain what was lost, meaning newcomers will indeed suffer, but let's face the truth, just how many newcomers are there? Probably not much, so I can't see that as a valid point to dismiss a much more advanced technology that can make the game be overall more efficient, and so for the updates.

Also, we do have a CASC Editor that was made by Ladik, if you want, you can fully extract it and place in one MPQ and use that for base for any tool that you currently have, is it hard? No, it is not. Or you could just save a copy of your WC3 before updating to 1.30 and you won't be breaking any law and you will still have access to MPQs.

All-in-all I support their decision (I rarely do), but in this case, I do believe what they did is right.
 
It seems that we have mixed feelings, where some are in favor and some are against the CASC patch. Assuming that we do not actually get to control it, and it will happen anyway, should we create a dedicated list of what tools we know we want for WarCraft III modding that we want somebody (community, Blizzard, etc) to maintain regardless of how the game data is stored? That seems like a good possible next step.
 

deepstrasz

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However, it is not a good thing, that now it will take time to regain what was lost, meaning newcomers will indeed suffer, but let's face the truth, just how many newcomers are there? Probably not much, so I can't see that as a valid point to dismiss a much more advanced technology that can make the game be overall more efficient, and so for the updates.
As you said, might not be many newcomers but what of those who made the tools and are gone? I for one, do not have any knowledge in making such a tool and certainly no time or desire to learn making one.
should we create a dedicated list of what tools we know we want for WarCraft III modding that we want somebody (community, Blizzard, etc) to maintain regardless of how the game data is stored? That seems like a good possible next step.
Definitely.
 
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As you said, might not be many newcomers but what of those who made the tools and are gone? I for one, do not have any knowledge in making such a tool and certainly no time or desire to learn making one.
Well, can't say much about the tool makers, but we still have ways to counter it, as I've said, just extract the whole CASC and fill it to a MPQ and you are done.

It seems that we have mixed feelings, where some are in favor and some are against the CASC patch. Assuming that we do not actually get to control it, and it will happen anyway, should we create a dedicated list of what tools we know we want for WarCraft III modding that we want somebody (community, Blizzard, etc) to maintain regardless of how the game data is stored? That seems like a good possible next step.
I honestly doubt they will, nor that they should. Third-party tools are never a concern to any company and it would be wrong to actually do care about such things. All you can hope is that makers of said third-party tools will adjust to the change and update the tools they once made.

We have never seen blizzard making any other thing, but plugin for 3ds Max, aka Blizzard Art Tools. You could of course try and ask them, but honestly I fail to see how that will change anything. Also, I really doubt that Hive won't have people with good knowledge of C++, thus code of Magos could be use to be merged with CASC library and at least one tool will work, but that is yet again just my assumption.

Still, hoping is a good thing and I for one do agree, that it would be good, if Blizzard themselves somehow aid modmakers, but I still can't see that as a possibility, which is kinda sad.

However, truth to be told, if we really gather a list of tools that relied on the MPQ to work, will we really get a big list? The most relevant ones are: MDLvis, Magos, W3x2Lni (which will work if you extracted data beforehand or ask someone to share his with you), Vexorian (but why would you use it now, as it is really a bad tool that actually malforms file and makes host-bots have a rough time with it), Wc3SlkOpt( also outdated due to W3x2Lni).

If I did miss any, please do let me know, I am actually curious about the list we will have in the end.
 
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Rui

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I haven't seen any responses from anyone on Blizzard in any thread here, the communication seems to be one sided either way.
Two of our members work for Blizzard. They would either propose alternatives to placate people's wrath (hints to a cringy situation), or they'd just opine on the subject, which then becomes Blizzard's official stand. I'm guessing Blizzard has its employees follow a code of conduct to hinder such misconceptions.
 
Also, I really doubt that Hive won't have people with good knowledge of C++, thus code of Magos could be use to be merged with CASC library and at least one tool will work, but that is yet again just my assumption.

As far as I know, Magos full source code was never released and can not be compiled. Not that it matters, in my opinion, considering it takes a few minutes to rebuild the game MPQs with an MPQ editor and CASC Viewer and for the fact that the MPQs are optional for Magos to work.
 
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As far as I know, Magos full source code was never released and can not be compiled. Not that it matters, in my opinion, considering it takes a few minutes to rebuild the game MPQs with an MPQ editor and CASC Viewer and for the fact that the MPQs are optional for Magos to work.
There is a source code, although I am not sure if it was leaked or given away, I have it, Retera has it and I guess some other people also have it. But yeah, all-in-all the answer is simple, to just rebuild CASC into a singular MPQ, which I've said myself as well :)
 
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Two of our members work for Blizzard. They would either propose alternatives to placate people's wrath (hints to a cringy situation), or they'd just opine on the subject, which then becomes Blizzard's official stand. I'm guessing Blizzard has its employees follow a code of conduct to hinder such misconceptions.

I mean this is more or less standard behaviour among industries to prevent chaos or major fuckups from the side of your employees. Normally you set back for a while, let the dust settle and then respond with a clear stance or even better with a solution so you don't give false promises or cause an uproar. At the first moments, communities (even more so gamning communities, which are among the worst consumer groups you can have) tend to never respond with reason. You have people that hate the company for every change they make and others that defend everything. So yeah, seeing no respond from blizzard's site or the employees doesn't really surprise me. I think we will see a bit of reasoning when the patch rolls out, i even expect a bit something which makes the transition somewhat less painfull.
 
There is a source code, although I am not sure if it was leaked or given away, I have it, Retera has it and I guess some other people also have it. But yeah, all-in-all the answer is simple, to just rebuild CASC into a singular MPQ, which I've said myself as well :)

If it was the source code that was posted officially on Magos website (it probably is), then it won't compile.

War3 Model Editor

Magos said:
The source code for the Model Editor (C++)!
NOTE: This is meant as an educational source, not something to be recompiled under another author! Therefore the source code is not fully compilable!
 
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The question is. Is it legal?
How is it not to just use the files that you will have an access to anyways? That is like saying using WE is illegal, because it modifies Blizzard's W3X or W3M map standard. The idea is, that you use the file they give you and just convert it to an older standard, there is nothing in EULA or ToS that explicitly says that you are not allowed to do so. :p
 
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I think the 1.30 inclusion of the fan-made, 3rd-party JassHelper program would like to have a word with you about that... ; )
And how is that connected to a concern? However, yeah, that was added indeed, but it is not a bit connected to what I was saying. Also it is now wise to mix tools that relied on MPQs and that got broken with a the said "plugin" or JassHelper.exe mentioned by you.

Also full quote has a different meaning all-together, but I hope you got the point I was making, there is no real need to discuss it further, as you have your own stand on this topic, so do I. :)

Back on-topic, I would still like to somehow make a list of tools affected by this change, as this will truly be a good basis on deciding just how much MPQs were needed, so we can look at pros and cons.
 
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@Retera

I would actually like to see the list of tools which will be updated in accordance with the current patch.

@Lord_Earthfire

As you and a certain man said..
"Change is coming".

I do not know much about CASC, aside from this thread, to form a developed opinion on this issue that the migration therefrom may bring, so I'll support their decision (Blizzard)

Bad times create strong men, (current stage)
Strong men create good times,
Good times create weak men,
Weak men create bad times.
 
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