[Miscellanous / Other] Starcraft 2 vs Warcraft 3 modding, why did you choose warcraft

[Bibendus]

I know this it the wrong section but this topic is focused on the wc3 editors community so, please, keep it there

So recenlty coming back on hiveworkshop I was asking myself... why is the warcraft3 modding community still very active while the sc2 one is struggling and slowly dying?

This is related to the sc2mapster thread about the arcade
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/54563-has-the-arcade-gained-momentum/#posts

This is the hiveworkshop vs sc2mapster google trend
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=sc2mapster#q="hive workshop", sc2mapster&cmpt=q


I would like to make a poll for warcraft 3 modders that decided to not move to the starcraft 2 editor. If you are not part of that group of people please don't vote, thanks

 

[Eleandor]

First note that I left Wc3 modding for a few years, exploring both SC2 modding and other games. I recently came back mostly out of nostalgia.

My main problem is with the editor. It appears blizzard has learned *nothing* from world edit. I don't really see Arcade that much as a problem. Today, battle.net is dead. Still, a lot of people are modding this game. If people enjoy modding, they'll mod. A dead player-base won't stop them. My problem is that the galaxy editor takes a lot of joy out of modding.

There's terraining. Galaxy editor is (mostly) an improvement. Texture splatting simply looks better than tiled textures. The doodad properties now include X/Y/Z and custom colors in addition to the scaling we know from world edit. Advantage: Galaxy Editor.

There's data editing. I hate world edit's data editor. You get a giant blob of data fields, some of which I still don't know what they do. There are maybe 10 fields that I frequently edit in the data editor. Instead I get 200 fields, with simple values like "gold cost" and "lumber cost" being half a screen apart. Editing a single field on multiple objects is a hassle. It's chaos. Every bad thing about world edit's data editor has only been amplified in the galaxy editor. Blizzard has clearly mistaken "complexity" for "complication".

There's scripting. GUI scripting has improved. Galaxy scripting however is brain dead. Why blizzard still insists on creating their own scripting languages is a mystery to me. I hoped after jass they would have finally outsourced this part to professionals (lua, python, javascript).

There's art. I've never created models or textures, but I think the vast database of warcraft 3 models vs the tiny fraction of starcraft 2 models is proof that something is wrong.

 

[rulerofiron99]

Mainly the arcade/popularity system.

Makes it all but impossible to get a new map any attention, so the top 10 maps list stagnated really quickly.

Leading up to the game's release, I was very excited to start making maps. I wrote down many ideas for maps I was planning to make. But the lobby system... just killed it for me.

I think one of the main reasons why SC2 doesn't have WC3's popularity is due to its effective (yet hated) DRM.

 

[Bibendus]

Since the release of WOTL there have been some improvements to the editor (data editor is a bit easier, the arcade has been improved, open game lobbies exist, etc)
Did you ever think to try again the sc2 editor or you gave up completely?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Is there a choice, I don't think it is worth the money? I mean, I'm not homeless but I chose: I'm have no money to buy SC2

 

[Bibendus]

Is there a choice, I don't think it is worth the money? I mean, I'm not homeless but I chose: I'm have no money to buy SC2

If you give it no value that means you have other problems with SC2 then
SC2 editor is a lot more powerful so why are you staying on WC3?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

In WarCraft you don't have to pay monthly.

Take this:

 

[Bibendus]

what? in sc2 you don't have to pay montly... I think russians have a monthly plan for people that can't buy the full game but it's not mandatory!

 

[Philstinator]

This is an interesting topic, I was planning on getting SC2 to play custom maps. However if what you say is true and it's dying, might not bother...(prolly will still get it though XD)

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

News has changed 3 years ago...

 

[PurgeandFire]

When I had the beta, the only thing I was really concerned about was the galaxy editor. I never got into the Starcraft games (too preoccupied with Warcraft, although I'm sure it is fun), so my interest in the game hung on how the modding was.

At first, it was very interesting. I liked discovering things--and the editor was not that bad. The terraining tools are wonderful. A lot of things were very similar in mechanics to the Warcraft III editor so it was not too difficult to jump in. However, the data editor was incredibly daunting, and at the time there was little info on integrating Galaxy script (as well as some random limits on it). I realized that the data editor played a larger role than the trigger editor, so I decided against buying the retail version. (however, I could be wrong by now. I know they've updated things quite a bit)

That was the first reason why I didn't get into Sc2 modding. The second was its overwhelming popularity at the time. I mean, there were a lot of players, but Sc2mapster was getting maps in every 1-2 hours. I didn't really want to put in the effort to advertise my map (laziness on my part). (There are other reasons related to this as well, see ruler's post)

The main reason is that I'm still attached to the Warcraft series. I just have a lot of nostalgia towards it. I love the lore and all the games in the series are among my favorite games. Plus, I've already invested so many years into its modding, it just seems weird to drop it all and spend time learning to mod and get used to another game.

There is still part of me that wants to get into it. However, I am still attached to Warcraft so I don't know if that'll happen.

 

[StormWarriors2]

WEll for starters it is incredibley difficult to use the Gaxaly Editors Data Editor, what usually takes me like 2 minutes to make a completely custom unit takes me an hour to sift through all the data in order to make sense. Adding custom names does not work, there is no custom tab, they have over complicated the entire system. Completely....

Its no fun its more of a task now to even use the Galaxy editor.

 

[rulerofiron99]

Since the release of WOTL there have been some improvements to the editor (data editor is a bit easier, the arcade has been improved, open game lobbies exist, etc)
Did you ever think to try again the sc2 editor or you gave up completely?

For me to get into SC2 modding, I'd need to sit down and properly learn it, which would be a lot of effort.

Whenever I mod in war3, I do it because I enjoy it, not because I want to build something to gain popularity.

If I'm going to put the effort into something to "make it big", I'm rather going to go all the way and make a standalone game, or at least a mod of a game that has less restrictive DRM.

To sum up,
war3 - fun to do, limited technical capabilities, no potential for "commercial" (not necessarily money, but like having a user/fan base) success.
sc2 - daunting mountain of knowledge to acquire before starting, amazing technical abilities, dying userbase
standalone - daunting mountain of knowledge to acquire, no technical limitations, build your own userbase!

Going by the "minimax" theory in game design, SC2 isn't a viable choice. So no, I don't think I'll ever return to modding it.

I never even came close to finishing a sc2 map.

The first thing I did when I opened the editor was to make a 3D knockback system on unit attacks - it was amazing to watch an Ultralisk knockback entire legions of marines, and SMOOTHLY! Mechanically I was so amazed by the power of the engine and the great improvements to the trigger editor (most importantly local variables, more dimensions for arrays), but when I visited the arcade, I was struck with the realisation that there simply wasn't any potential here and lost hope.

Another thing that's very important for me, is offline multiplayer. Internet is very crappy in my country, so we do most of our multiplayer gaming at big LANs. You can't play starcraft 2 at LANs. Meanwhile, we STILL play warcraft maps.

If I make a war3 map, at least I can share it with my friends at a lan and enjoy my work.

 

[TaShadan]

In addition to my votes i have another reason i dislike sc2, the mechanics. I cant configure the amount of units selectable and the units clump like shit. This makes tactical gameplay annoying.

 

[rulerofiron99]

In addition to my votes i have another reason i dislike sc2, the mechanics. I cant configure the amount of units selectable and the units clump like shit. This makes tactical gameplay annoying.

I remember some testing during the "#savehots" time a while back, where much of the community agreed that one of the biggest issues with SC2 is the way units clump, encouraging deathballing.

One of the simpler ways to improve it was to increase the "inner radius" stat for units, or something like that.

Amount of selectable units would be fairly easy to code, and a formation system, while difficult, would be possible.

 

[TaShadan]

I know its easy (i did it myself), but if one player is having latency it bugs horrible. There were several attemps of other modders and they all had the same problem. Also the SC2BW modder tried to fix the clump problem but its still shitty. In general there were several different attemps (published on TL) but all failed. Its a hardcoded problem which can only be solved by Blizzard, but they dont care. Actually they think clumping is awesome.

 

[rulerofiron99]

Ugh

I used to watch a lot of sc2 pro matches, the part I hated the most was when players had already built up their forces and just deathballed. Those full-scale battles are so boring to watch, 5 seconds and 300 supply worth of units are gone.

 

[TaShadan]

Ugh

I used to watch a lot of sc2 pro matches, the part I hated the most was when players had already built up their forces and just deathballed. Those full-scale battles are so boring to watch, 5 seconds and 300 supply worth of units are gone.

#2
sc2 didnt last long on my pc i deinstalled it after a very short time.

 

[Bibendus]

Does anyone have idea about the current WC3 active population?
Is it still bigger then SC2?

 

[rulerofiron99]

Does anyone have idea about the current WC3 active population?
Is it still bigger then SC2?

I am sure the war3 population is higher than the sc2 population here in South Africa, mainly due to bad internet (making sc2 difficult or impossible to play), and a culture of pirating games. Wild estimate: 10 000 war 3 players.

As for worldwide, I'd multiply the active population in Garena by 3-4.

We just have no way of knowing just how many play the game offline or on LAN, and it is still a very popular game.

I don't have any numbers for the sc2 population, but I'm sure that's a little easier to count by checking player counts on battle.net, and add a few percent for those using the cracked version.

 

[Chaosy]

I got both sc2 and wc3. When I got sc2 I completed the campaign and after that I checked the editor, it took me 1 min inside the trigger editor to decide to uninstall

 

[Luorax]

I prefer medieval to sci-fi assets for my map

Soooo much this. There are other things as well though, I checked them all. It's mainly the money, I want to spend my money on far more important things (like getting a driver's licence) till I get a job.

 

[APproject]

^ I agree with Lourax.

For me Warcraft is closer to heart than Starcraft, that's probably because of medieval and being too conservative.

 

[Bibendus]

I got both sc2 and wc3. When I got sc2 I completed the campaign and after that I checked the editor, it took me 1 min inside the trigger editor to decide to uninstall

Why?!?!? The trigger editor is the only thing that didn't change and only got improved :|

 

[Chaosy]

I saw local something that is jass in wc3. And I hated jass.

I cant give a example but I remember it to be complex

 

[gorillabull]

the only reason i cant use sc2 is because i have no money for games. otherwise if you want to be a serious moder and actually design something worth playing in this day and age you would go with sc2. i like wc3's style more however the sc2 editor is 100x more powerful and your creations will be very sophisticated (potentially) wc3 as a system is simply outdated

 

[TaShadan]

Actually if you are a serious modder you wont use wc3 or sc2, you will use SourceSDK, UDK or Unity.

 

[Dr Super Good]

People are aware you can play all arcade maps for free right (you do not need to buy WoL, HotS or any Blizzard game, only download the free demo)? As long as you are in a party with someone who has brought the game that is.

Mainly the arcade/popularity system.

Makes it all but impossible to get a new map any attention, so the top 10 maps list stagnated really quickly.

Leading up to the game's release, I was very excited to start making maps. I wrote down many ideas for maps I was planning to make. But the lobby system... just killed it for me.

Please post only after playing the game. That was removed like 12 months ago.

You now have a "waiting for players" list which shows all maps which have people in their lobby but still need more players to fill their lobby. The order taken is totally random (probably first come first serve with oldest lobby at top). This puts SC2 far beyond WC3 as robots have degraded WC3 playability to exactly that of SC2 when it was released (only the most popular maps have enough players).

Also if you bothered to check the google analysis, you will see that most of the HiveWorkshop search traffic is generated by the "Philippines". SC2Mapster is mostly the USA.

Anyway, look at a true trend.

Notice how Warcraft III and Diablo II were considerably higher for longer in the old days. Since then releases occur as blips. What does this tell us? Modern people do not like these sort of games anymore.

Also notice how much of it is coming from Poland... Hmmm...

 

[TaShadan]

Arcade is still not too good and i dont have friends owning HotS. An additional problem with sc2 modding is that the upload amount is limited. You will never (atleast with the actual rules) be able to create a total conversion with lots of custom data and custom maps.

BTW a google search trend doesnt mean people play or like a certain game more.

 

[Dr Super Good]

You will never (atleast with the actual rules) be able to create a total conversion with lots of custom data and custom maps.

Yes you can, just you will need to use multiple accounts. Nothing stops you using a public mod for extra data, and you can use any number of mods you want I think.

Arcade is still not too good and i dont have friends owning HotS.

So spawn them in? Like I said, you can play Arcade without owning any Blizzard game for as long as you like with the only condition being you party up with someone who does own the game.

BTW a google search trend doesnt mean people play or like a certain game more.

It can show trends though, such as the decline in search activity pointing towards a decline in player base.

 

[neo_sluf]

i am busy at wc3 and i don't have time anymore at sc2 here in our place 2 humans only play sc while 8,000+ play wc..

 

[gorillabull]

Actually if you are a serious modder you wont use wc3 or sc2, you will use SourceSDK, UDK or Unity.

no.. you'd use those if you are a professional which is after serious moder

 

[rulerofiron99]

Please post only after playing the game. That was removed like 12 months ago.

I last checked about a year ago, and it was still rubbish.

But that damage has already been done. Look at the trend you linked - SC2 was practically stillborn.

 

[Dr Super Good]

SC2 was practically stillborn.

Fact is, the game is not bad. Fact is, modern gamers are bad.

Like this shows, modern gamers want shitty PvP games.

Before they used to leave Warcraft III for another game but come back because Warcraft III was where DotA was. Now they leave LoL, DotA 2 or any other piece of PvP rubbish for StarCraft II just to come back because they cannot get the same number of people arrested or cause the same number of people to suicide.

 

[TaShadan]

I doubt that people will come back to sc2. But iam not going to argue because its personal preference. You think sc2 is an awesome game, i think its crap.

Yes you can, just you will need to use multiple accounts.

This means i have to buy sc2 several times? No thx.

 

[Dr Super Good]

This means i have to buy sc2 several times?

If you want to use 700 MB of the same content that has been published already, then yes. Otherwise you can get the content authors to publish it on their accounts and import their mods.

 

[Almia]

It is because you can be challenged to make a very complex feature in Warcraft, which StarCraft can't afford (because it is always easy and possible and Warcraft)

And second, Warcraft in Philippines is free.

Also, Galaxy wasn't that very complex(Yes, it may look like, though If you have some programming languages learned like C++ or even Zinc, you will understand it easily)

 

[Bibendus]

Fact is, the game is not bad. Fact is, modern gamers are bad.

Like this shows, modern gamers want shitty PvP games.

Before they used to leave Warcraft III for another game but come back because Warcraft III was where DotA was. Now they leave LoL, DotA 2 or any other piece of PvP rubbish for StarCraft II just to come back because they cannot get the same number of people arrested or cause the same number of people to suicide.

Careful on how you use google trends because it uses search terms and if you write starcraft II instead of starcraft 2 you obtain a lot less results.
Check this
http://www.google.com/trends/explor...arcraft II, warcraft 3 + warcraft III&cmpt=q

However consider that a lot of people searches league of legends as search term "lol" that however is already a common word.
You can still see it rise in 2010 so it's totally league of legends' fault
http://www.google.com/trends/explor...arcraft II, warcraft 3 + warcraft III&cmpt=q

 

[Luorax]

Careful on how you use google trends because it uses search terms and if you write starcraft II instead of starcraft 2 you obtain a lot less results.
Check this
http://www.google.com/trends/explor...arcraft II, warcraft 3 + warcraft III&cmpt=q

However consider that a lot of people searches league of legends as search term "lol" that however is already a common word.
You can still see it rise in 2010 so it's totally league of legends' fault
http://www.google.com/trends/explor...arcraft II, warcraft 3 + warcraft III&cmpt=q

Are there really people out there who type out "league of legends" and "starcraft II" instead of "lol" and "sc2"?

 

[Bibendus]

it seems that sc2 is not used a lot, I added it to the starcraft thrend tho

http://www.google.com/trends/explor...t II + sc2, warcraft 3 + warcraft III&cmpt=q

 

[Dr Super Good]

And second, Warcraft in Philippines is free.

No it is not, the game is never free. If you get it for free through piracy you are in breach of international copyright law and could face a fine >100,000$ (not that that happens much). You also do not support the developers so they might not make such games again.

StarCraft II on the other-hand can be played completely for free, as long as you join a party with someone who has brought the game.

 

[Wazzz]

blizzard's patches for warcraft 3 serve as a no cd patch
the main difference between starcraft 2 and warcraft 3 would be that starcraft 2 doesn't support lan
also, starcraft 2 is set in the future, while warcraft 3 is not

 

[Dr Super Good]

starcraft 2 doesn't support lan

Yes, that is the only down side. However since few people ever used the LAN feature of games for its intended purpose (most used it as a WAN using a bridge) that is hardly a negative feature.

The deterministic nature of SC2 means that you can get at least 5 people playing on a standard British (replace with word "rubbish" if you want) ADSL connection as long as no one is performing file sharing or video streaming.

 

[GhostThruster]

Warcraft in Philippines is free.

this is why i love fillipinos so much.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

It's free? My parents should've stayed there.

 

[Almia]

No it is not, the game is never free. If you get it for free through piracy you are in breach of international copyright law and could face a fine >100,000$ (not that that happens much). You also do not support the developers so they might not make such games again.

StarCraft II on the other-hand can be played completely for free, as long as you join a party with someone who has brought the game.

I don't know why it became free, it just pops up from nowhere. That's why we don't have CD Keys and we have (or some of us) never played BNet.

 

[Adiktuz]

wc3... take note that I have SCII and as such have personally experienced using the SCII editor...

1) I'm more accustomed to it
2) There are more resources right now
3) I don't have the luxury of time to use the SCII editor (because it takes more time to use it than the WE)

mostly, my biggest reason really is the third one... real life work takes a huge part of my time and I'm also reviewing for my board exam... and the fact that I'm more focused right now on RPG Maker so I'm not even that active now in wc3 modding...

but when I get the time (especially to update my SCII, and maybe money to buy the expansion coz I only have WoL right now), I think I'd go on to SCII...

 

[Dr Super Good]

I don't know why it became free

To solve the problem of no LAN play. You can invite your friends around for a game of SC2 and party up with them so you can all play a map even if you are the only person to actually own the game.

 

[Almia]

To solve the problem of no LAN play. You can invite your friends around for a game of SC2 and party up with them so you can all play a map even if you are the only person to actually own the game.

Actually, we play at Garena

 

[Dr Super Good]

Actually, we play at Garena

No Blizzard game supports that. It is either BattleNet or nothing. This is why they removed LAN as people like you abused it as a WAN.