1. Updated Resource Submission Rules: All model & skin resource submissions must now include an in-game screenshot. This is to help speed up the moderation process and to show how the model and/or texture looks like from the in-game camera.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. DID YOU KNOW - That you can unlock new rank icons by posting on the forums or winning contests? Click here to customize your rank or read our User Rank Policy to see a list of ranks that you can unlock. Have you won a contest and still haven't received your rank award? Then please contact the administration.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Rubbed the right way, the genie is out of its lamp! The 12th Concept Art Contest Results have been announced.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Race against the odds and Reforge, Don't Refund. The 14th Techtree Contest has begun!
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Check out the Staff job openings thread.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

[Miscellanous / Other] Starcraft 2 vs Warcraft 3 modding, why did you choose warcraft

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Bibendus, Jul 15, 2013.

?

Why did you choose to keep modding for Warcraft3 instead of moving to Starcraft2

  1. SC2 editor is too complex compared to WC3 one (specially the data editor)

    46.9%
  2. Low amount of assets in SC2 (models, icons, sounds)

    45.3%
  3. Lack of tutorials on how to use the SC2 editor

    26.6%
  4. Bad popularity system on the SC2 Arcade

    35.9%
  5. Bad rating/reviews system on the SC2 Arcade

    20.3%
  6. The SC2 playerbase is dumb

    12.5%
  7. Open lobby system came too late, I already made my decision

    17.2%
  8. Global play came too late, I already made my decision

    14.1%
  9. The idea of a possible map market makes me sick

    25.0%
  10. I prefer medieval to sci-fi assets for my map

    48.4%
  11. I'm already working on a wc3 project and I don't want to restart from 0

    35.9%
  12. I have problems with the map censorship on b.net arcade / my map was banned (copyright infringement,

    14.1%
  13. I have no money to buy SC2

    28.1%
  14. Other (please specify replying to this topic)

    9.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Bibendus

    Bibendus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    237
    Resources:
    1
    Icons:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    I know this it the wrong section but this topic is focused on the wc3 editors community so, please, keep it there ;)

    So recenlty coming back on hiveworkshop I was asking myself... why is the warcraft3 modding community still very active while the sc2 one is struggling and slowly dying?

    This is related to the sc2mapster thread about the arcade
    http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/54563-has-the-arcade-gained-momentum/#posts

    This is the hiveworkshop vs sc2mapster google trend
    http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=sc2mapster#q="hive workshop", sc2mapster&cmpt=q


    I would like to make a poll for warcraft 3 modders that decided to not move to the starcraft 2 editor. If you are not part of that group of people please don't vote, thanks :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  2. Eleandor

    Eleandor

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,681
    Resources:
    2
    Models:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    2
    First note that I left Wc3 modding for a few years, exploring both SC2 modding and other games. I recently came back mostly out of nostalgia.

    My main problem is with the editor. It appears blizzard has learned *nothing* from world edit. I don't really see Arcade that much as a problem. Today, battle.net is dead. Still, a lot of people are modding this game. If people enjoy modding, they'll mod. A dead player-base won't stop them. My problem is that the galaxy editor takes a lot of joy out of modding.

    There's terraining. Galaxy editor is (mostly) an improvement. Texture splatting simply looks better than tiled textures. The doodad properties now include X/Y/Z and custom colors in addition to the scaling we know from world edit. Advantage: Galaxy Editor.

    There's data editing. I hate world edit's data editor. You get a giant blob of data fields, some of which I still don't know what they do. There are maybe 10 fields that I frequently edit in the data editor. Instead I get 200 fields, with simple values like "gold cost" and "lumber cost" being half a screen apart. Editing a single field on multiple objects is a hassle. It's chaos. Every bad thing about world edit's data editor has only been amplified in the galaxy editor. Blizzard has clearly mistaken "complexity" for "complication".

    There's scripting. GUI scripting has improved. Galaxy scripting however is brain dead. Why blizzard still insists on creating their own scripting languages is a mystery to me. I hoped after jass they would have finally outsourced this part to professionals (lua, python, javascript).

    There's art. I've never created models or textures, but I think the vast database of warcraft 3 models vs the tiny fraction of starcraft 2 models is proof that something is wrong.
     
  3. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,129
    Resources:
    14
    Maps:
    4
    Spells:
    9
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    14
    Mainly the arcade/popularity system.

    Makes it all but impossible to get a new map any attention, so the top 10 maps list stagnated really quickly.

    Leading up to the game's release, I was very excited to start making maps. I wrote down many ideas for maps I was planning to make. But the lobby system... just killed it for me.

    I think one of the main reasons why SC2 doesn't have WC3's popularity is due to its effective (yet hated) DRM.
     
  4. Bibendus

    Bibendus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    237
    Resources:
    1
    Icons:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Since the release of WOTL there have been some improvements to the editor (data editor is a bit easier, the arcade has been improved, open game lobbies exist, etc)
    Did you ever think to try again the sc2 editor or you gave up completely?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  5. StoPCampinGn00b

    StoPCampinGn00b

    Community Manager

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,459
    Resources:
    1
    Maps:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Is there a choice, I don't think it is worth the money? I mean, I'm not homeless but I chose: I'm have no money to buy SC2
     
  6. Bibendus

    Bibendus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    237
    Resources:
    1
    Icons:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    If you give it no value that means you have other problems with SC2 then ;)
    SC2 editor is a lot more powerful so why are you staying on WC3?
     
  7. StoPCampinGn00b

    StoPCampinGn00b

    Community Manager

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,459
    Resources:
    1
    Maps:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    In WarCraft you don't have to pay monthly.

    Take this: ;)
     
  8. Bibendus

    Bibendus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    237
    Resources:
    1
    Icons:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    what? in sc2 you don't have to pay montly... I think russians have a monthly plan for people that can't buy the full game but it's not mandatory!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  9. Philstinator

    Philstinator

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2013
    Messages:
    35
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    This is an interesting topic, I was planning on getting SC2 to play custom maps. However if what you say is true and it's dying, might not bother...(prolly will still get it though XD)
     
  10. StoPCampinGn00b

    StoPCampinGn00b

    Community Manager

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,459
    Resources:
    1
    Maps:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    News has changed 3 years ago...
     
  11. PurgeandFire

    PurgeandFire

    Code Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    7,427
    Resources:
    18
    Icons:
    1
    Spells:
    4
    Tutorials:
    9
    JASS:
    4
    Resources:
    18
    When I had the beta, the only thing I was really concerned about was the galaxy editor. I never got into the Starcraft games (too preoccupied with Warcraft, although I'm sure it is fun), so my interest in the game hung on how the modding was.

    At first, it was very interesting. I liked discovering things--and the editor was not that bad. The terraining tools are wonderful. A lot of things were very similar in mechanics to the Warcraft III editor so it was not too difficult to jump in. However, the data editor was incredibly daunting, and at the time there was little info on integrating Galaxy script (as well as some random limits on it). I realized that the data editor played a larger role than the trigger editor, so I decided against buying the retail version. (however, I could be wrong by now. I know they've updated things quite a bit)

    That was the first reason why I didn't get into Sc2 modding. The second was its overwhelming popularity at the time. I mean, there were a lot of players, but Sc2mapster was getting maps in every 1-2 hours. I didn't really want to put in the effort to advertise my map (laziness on my part). (There are other reasons related to this as well, see ruler's post)

    The main reason is that I'm still attached to the Warcraft series. I just have a lot of nostalgia towards it. I love the lore and all the games in the series are among my favorite games. Plus, I've already invested so many years into its modding, it just seems weird to drop it all and spend time learning to mod and get used to another game.

    There is still part of me that wants to get into it. However, I am still attached to Warcraft so I don't know if that'll happen.
     
  12. StormWarriors2

    StormWarriors2

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    412
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    WEll for starters it is incredibley difficult to use the Gaxaly Editors Data Editor, what usually takes me like 2 minutes to make a completely custom unit takes me an hour to sift through all the data in order to make sense. Adding custom names does not work, there is no custom tab, they have over complicated the entire system. Completely....

    Its no fun its more of a task now to even use the Galaxy editor.
     
  13. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,129
    Resources:
    14
    Maps:
    4
    Spells:
    9
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    14
    For me to get into SC2 modding, I'd need to sit down and properly learn it, which would be a lot of effort.

    Whenever I mod in war3, I do it because I enjoy it, not because I want to build something to gain popularity.

    If I'm going to put the effort into something to "make it big", I'm rather going to go all the way and make a standalone game, or at least a mod of a game that has less restrictive DRM.

    To sum up,
    war3 - fun to do, limited technical capabilities, no potential for "commercial" (not necessarily money, but like having a user/fan base) success.
    sc2 - daunting mountain of knowledge to acquire before starting, amazing technical abilities, dying userbase
    standalone - daunting mountain of knowledge to acquire, no technical limitations, build your own userbase!

    Going by the "minimax" theory in game design, SC2 isn't a viable choice. So no, I don't think I'll ever return to modding it.

    I never even came close to finishing a sc2 map.

    The first thing I did when I opened the editor was to make a 3D knockback system on unit attacks - it was amazing to watch an Ultralisk knockback entire legions of marines, and SMOOTHLY! Mechanically I was so amazed by the power of the engine and the great improvements to the trigger editor (most importantly local variables, more dimensions for arrays), but when I visited the arcade, I was struck with the realisation that there simply wasn't any potential here and lost hope.

    Another thing that's very important for me, is offline multiplayer. Internet is very crappy in my country, so we do most of our multiplayer gaming at big LANs. You can't play starcraft 2 at LANs. Meanwhile, we STILL play warcraft maps.

    If I make a war3 map, at least I can share it with my friends at a lan and enjoy my work.
     
  14. TaShadan

    TaShadan

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,151
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    In addition to my votes i have another reason i dislike sc2, the mechanics. I cant configure the amount of units selectable and the units clump like shit. This makes tactical gameplay annoying.
     
  15. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,129
    Resources:
    14
    Maps:
    4
    Spells:
    9
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    14
    I remember some testing during the "#savehots" time a while back, where much of the community agreed that one of the biggest issues with SC2 is the way units clump, encouraging deathballing.

    One of the simpler ways to improve it was to increase the "inner radius" stat for units, or something like that.

    Amount of selectable units would be fairly easy to code, and a formation system, while difficult, would be possible.
     
  16. TaShadan

    TaShadan

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,151
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    I know its easy (i did it myself), but if one player is having latency it bugs horrible. There were several attemps of other modders and they all had the same problem. Also the SC2BW modder tried to fix the clump problem but its still shitty. In general there were several different attemps (published on TL) but all failed. Its a hardcoded problem which can only be solved by Blizzard, but they dont care. Actually they think clumping is awesome.
     
  17. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,129
    Resources:
    14
    Maps:
    4
    Spells:
    9
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    14
    Ugh :(

    I used to watch a lot of sc2 pro matches, the part I hated the most was when players had already built up their forces and just deathballed. Those full-scale battles are so boring to watch, 5 seconds and 300 supply worth of units are gone.
     
  18. TaShadan

    TaShadan

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,151
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    #2
    sc2 didnt last long on my pc i deinstalled it after a very short time.
     
  19. Bibendus

    Bibendus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    237
    Resources:
    1
    Icons:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Does anyone have idea about the current WC3 active population?
    Is it still bigger then SC2?
     
  20. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,129
    Resources:
    14
    Maps:
    4
    Spells:
    9
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    14
    I am sure the war3 population is higher than the sc2 population here in South Africa, mainly due to bad internet (making sc2 difficult or impossible to play), and a culture of pirating games. Wild estimate: 10 000 war 3 players.

    As for worldwide, I'd multiply the active population in Garena by 3-4.

    We just have no way of knowing just how many play the game offline or on LAN, and it is still a very popular game.

    I don't have any numbers for the sc2 population, but I'm sure that's a little easier to count by checking player counts on battle.net, and add a few percent for those using the cracked version.