Spell Section - The most gloomy section in thw

[Kazeon]

As we all know it, the spell section looks so gloomy, there is only one or two mods to handle those spells, there is no joke, no impression feeling, so dead, gray and colorless, endless boredom. no one is care about spells rating, no one give comments, mods are talk less do less, and I just see deathismyfriend is the only coder active at spell section.. I dont know why but you guys need to do something before it is totaly dead. Everyone go hard on new coder, at least try to cheer them up, before they leave this site..

I just want all coder around thw to understand and try to make our nest (spell section) become colorful and more alive and active, I meant just go easy, don't be so serious. you guys always post anything without any expression, that's awkward and boring.

just as comparasion.. look at Skin, Map, and Model section, they are so alive, full of comments, ratings, critisms, suggestions, impressions, colorful.. but spell section, is just walking dead..

And..
my personal problem is I must beg for suggestion just to retrieve one or two suggestions.. that's just hurt deep inside my heart..

I just want to throw up all my personal opinion and feeling about spell section into the air so everybody can see it..

If you ask me, "so what do you want?"
I dont want anything, just let's make spell section more alive, that's all, thnks for reading my naration..

 

[edo494]

other parts of forum are more active because of the attitude in mind that everything new must be better or have more features or it gets insta-rejected pretty much.

I dont agree on that, tho there is limit when you have enough of "DDS systems".

But its not about just saying: "Spell section, be active!" and people will jump here. But yes, almost everyone(I dont exclude myself, but neither really include, since I am not really that much active on the forum) when he/they see new spell or system or whatever, instantly goes for the things that is not neccesarily right like sharks. But at the same time, some people make really low quality stuff and post it into the spell database and when they even get feedback they get upset that someone dares to say its not best, perfect and stuff(I sure felt that too with my Reincarnation system-o-spell ) and many people dont want to "improve" system or themselves and just leave it to private or completly.

This problem goes deeper than just, "Be soft at anyone"

 

[Kazeon]

when he/they see new spell or system or whatever, instantly goes for the things that is not neccesarily right like sharks.

that's pretty correct, maybe their mindset is: find the mistake, then it's done

some people make really low quality stuff and post it into the spell database and when they even get feedback they get upset that someone dares to say its not best, perfect and stuff(I sure felt that too with my Reincarnation system-o-spell ) and many people dont want to "improve" system or themselves and just leave it to private or completly.

This problem goes deeper than just, "Be soft at anyone"

that's because spell section (and code resource section) is the hardest place on thw to get approved resource, everything must be perfect and optimizied, sometimes we are ordered even to rewrite the whole code to get approved, otherwise => gy

what I meant is all people there are so boring, there is never expression like

and it's weird..

 

[sonofjay]

what I meant is all people there are so boring, there is never expression like

Hahaha.

 

[Lambdadelta]

From my perspective, it seems a lot of comments are just analysing the efficiency and structure of the code. Not many of the comments relate to the concept and design of the spell.

 

[Almia]

say what, let's teach them vJASS and Wurst !

Nah just kidding.

Most modders are focused on the graphics of their maps etc.

 

[Kazeon]

Hahaha.

yup, that one is nice joke, but only once for a year...

From my perspective, it seems a lot of comments are just analysing the efficiency and structure of the code. Not many of the comments relate to the concept and design of the spell.

thnks God, some people are still active giving review (at least the section is not totally dead)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'd say that's the nature of the matter and can not be changed.

The spells section has a general flaw that is its purpose itself:
- bad modders flood the section with badly coded spells
- almost no serious modder will actually consider using anything from the spells section, unless it's a system; they will always code their own spells for the sake of consistency
- 90% of submissions are copies of DOTA spells anyway (did someone say "omnislash"? *duck*)
- people abuse the spells section as a second trigger help section, assuming they get instant feedback.


The reason why the skin and model section is so alive is that the actual quality of the content in there is really good. And that the content is actually *useful* for modders.
Since only a small minority of WC3 modders have the knowledge or the skills to model and texture, user contributions are always needed.


So basicly, can we do something about it? I'd say no. I think the spell section is pretty much broken by design, since it tries to fulfill a need that was never there in the first place. Nobody downloads spells. Only the best and most unique of spells get downloaded to a noticable degrees.
And even the most downloaded spells are flawed in a lot of areas:
I've sorted the spells section by the number of downloads, and in the top 30 most downloaded maps, there are at least 15 spells that leak, have bugs or are just badly coded in general.

 

[Rheiko]

as long as it's GUI, i'm in
i have no comment for jass since i don't understand it clearly

EDIT:

everything must be perfect and optimizied

not really

 

[Lambdadelta]

Above is an interesting point. I viewed spells section more of a showcase area. It's for cool spells or concepts. As said, I'd prefer to code myself.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Above is an interesting point. I viewed spells section more of a showcase area. It's for cool spells or concepts. As said, I'd prefer to code myself.

This. I sometimes browse through it for visual effects and then adapt the concept in my own coded spells.

 

[Kazeon]

I viewed spells section more of a showcase area.

you made a cool point.. but everything I made and submitted there, is just because I want to share hopefully someone find them useful, but I have just thinking about

they will always code their own spells for the sake of consistency

and it's just correct and I never thought of that before..

almost no serious modder will actually consider using anything from the spells section, unless it's a system; they will always code their own spells for the sake of consistency

me too actually, I prefer to code everything myself..

but I found that most snippet at Jass Resources are just super useful for any modder and makes everything easier.. and still, that section is even more "dead" than spell section at least after Nestharus is gone and captain Bribe is not really active..

 

[IcemanBo]

I completly agree with Zwiebelchen here. Nobody really uses spells, so we lack of usage, feedback and downloads in the section.

I guess even maybe more than half of downloads is only for a review and to give suggestions about efficiency.

But this is not really because of bad execution (not always ^_°), but just that these spell never fit 100% in most cases. So people like it, maybe give feedback, but probably never will take usage of it.

That's a bit different for systems I think. Or a system does that what you want or not. You easily can import it and it just does it's job in background.

If we're honest Wc3 isnt the biggest gaming connunity atm, and so come there are less mappers outside. So it's also the amount of possible audience that is decreasing. And all experienced mappers of them, I doubt anyone would import spells from other users instead of making them himself. I would not. I said spells, not systems!

But anyway, from now on I will try to be more active in spell section and throw some flowers to change the gloominess in spell section.

 

[Kazeon]

But anyway, from now on I will try to be more active in spell section and throw some flowers to change the gloominess in spell section.

how sweet :3

If we're honest Wc3 isnt the biggest gaming connunity atm, and so come there are less mappers outside. So it's also the amount of possible audience that is decreasing. And all experienced mappers of them, I doubt anyone would import spells from other users instead of making them himself. I would not. I said spells, not systems!

I just don't know why do I love wc3 modding so much, although I know that WE is not the most powerful game making program.. and I know someday I will have to leave this community for my future sake but I don't know how and when, I feel it's like leaving my family :')
my dream is to develope my own game (a big RPG to be specific) and I know I can't achieve it by using World Editor (okay that's stupid) That's why several days ago I said I will be more on c++ more than WE but I can't D:


EDIT:
no one congrats me for my first blue pearl, ey?

 

[Heinvers]

EDIT:
no one congrats me for my first blue pearl, ey?

Congratulations for your blue pearl

 

[chobibo]

Spells and systems are somewhat related, at least for code-based spells.

Hahaha.

Nice.

 

[Kazeon]

guys, it's all about visual, you see skin and model section is so sucessful.. why? because they got visual that can be enjoyed.. Spell section fail because it can't be visually enjoyed, you see spell and system that have eye candy effect will always got more downloads? that explains it.. I guess discussion can be closed :3

 

[Adiktuz]

- almost no serious modder will actually consider using anything from the spells section, unless it's a system; they will always code their own spells for the sake of consistency

This... Seriously...

The only scripts that you really need to get are all systems... Here are the basics that you need to make your game customizable:

- DDS
- DDS
- DDS
- Did I say DDS?

@Chobibo - NOPE... Spells and Systems are far different...

 

[Daffa]

Mostly, only systems are used from Spell Section.
The main ones are SL and DDS, IDS might get along as well (reminds me I want to built a Wurst IDS).

Maybe we can put tons of craps at spell section (anime spells, cartoon spells, movie spells, and so on) to attain attention? No.

 

[Ralle]

So the current spell section should be more like the terrain showcase. A place where you show off cool stuff you made. Then we use the JASS section for actual code that people re-use. That doesn't sound too bad, actually.

 

[edo494]

but then where would the GUI stuff go? Because its Jass in one way or another, but tell that to some stubborn people

 

[Adiktuz]

A place where you show off cool stuff you made

Looking at it, it does seem to be used right now for that actually.

 

[Kazeon]

but then where would the GUI stuff go? Because its Jass in one way or another, but tell that to some stubborn people

they will be in special section named "gy"

So the current spell section should be more like the terrain showcase

really? so in resource section there must be a new sub-section for GUI, and this site will be neater than before good idea

and I agree that spell section is replaced by terrain showcase, but the question is what can we upload there? pictures?

Maybe we can put tons of craps at spell section (anime spells, cartoon spells, movie spells, and so on) to attain attention? No.

nice question and the answer

 

[Xonok]

Working or theoretical prototypes. Code quality doesn't matter, only the idea does.

 

[sonofjay]

and I agree that spell section is replaced by terrain showcase, but the question is what can we upload there? pictures?

Ralle is not suggesting to replace the Spell Section. He's only comparing it with the Terrain Board where you mostly showcase your works.

 

[Ralle]

I am trying to give ideas here. Showcasing spells might not be too bad of an idea. What is worth the most will always be the code libraries and not a given spell in particular, but they look cool so they should be shown off as art instead of code.

 

[Adiktuz]

yeah... so probably they'll function more like the Cinematic maps on the maps section or the pictures on the terrain showcase

 

[chobibo]

@Chobibo - NOPE... Spells and Systems are far different...

I meant that in the context that some spells require system(s), sorry for not being clear on that.

EDIT:

So the current spell section should be more like the terrain showcase. A place where you show off cool stuff you made. Then we use the JASS section for actual code that people re-use. That doesn't sound too bad, actually.

How about a new section like that, a section where people can post their spells (I guess most people will post their first spell, people tend to get excited by that, at least I did) and not worry about conforming to the hive's code standards.

 

[Lambdadelta]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/hero-showcase-red-widow-239138/
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/warcraft-discussion-99/eyecandy-thread-232690/

Yeah, could work.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I don't think the spells section should be dumbed down to mere showcasing; that would be the wrong approach. The spells section has it's uses. I'd love to just go there and download spells, but there's always the issue with the inconsistency in code that drives me off. I don't want badly coded spells in my maps and if I wanted to work through them manually, I could just code them myself in the first place.


So what can be done to fix the spells section?
Basicly, split it up into two sections:
A showcase section and an advanced section.

The showcase section has the same rules as the current spell section. It's merely about cool ideas and visuals. The showcase section requires screenshots of gifs. There's also no "quality check" in terms of coding in the showcase section. Use at your own risk.

The advanced section is for spells that are actually *meant* to be used and imported.
And it should have a strict ruleset to only allow resources that are consitent and on-par with quality to the JASS section.
These rules should apply:
- if a spell requires damage detection, it should always use DDS
- if a spell has moving missiles that need to be scripted, it should always use "Missile" by Dirac instead of manually implementing missiles
- if a spell has a knockback effect, it should use "knockback3D" from codemonkey
- if a spell applies debuffs or buffs, it should always use either "buff handler (Wurst)" or "BuffGenerator" by LuizBills
- if a spell changes any unit stats that require object data, it should use BonusMod
- spells should always be scopes
- if it requires a table, use table, obviously
- the ability should be fired by SpellEffectEvent by Bribe
- everything that should be customizable must call a seperate editable function at the top of the scope: dealing damage, changing stats of buffed/debuffed units, etc.


If we can manage to apply and enforce these rules, the spells would actually be usable for a lot of users.

The requirement for people to use knockback3D from codemonkey

 

[chobibo]

Too strict.

 

[IcemanBo]

@Zwiebelchen ... Maybe it's not a bad idea, but you want to put all GUI-coder in the Showcase-section? Of course jass is more efficient, but I don't know if it's good to seperate all pure gui coders from "useful" ressources.

(because your requirements for advanced section is obviously not for gui)

Offtopic That's also an awesome (but oddly still not approved) buff system - http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/submissions-414/snippet-needs-power-time-buff-230697/#post2295956

 

[Zwiebelchen]

@Zwiebelchen ... Maybe it's not a bad idea, but you want to put all GUI-coder in the Showcase-section? Of course jass is more efficient, but I don't know if it's good to seperate all pure gui coders from "useful" ressources.

Hmm... for the case of GUI spells, they should also have a catalogue of GUI friendly requirements: a GUI buff system, a GUI knockback system. a GUI missile system... as far as I recall, theres an approved GUI system for almost all the things I mentioned (except maybe for buffs).

So basicly there's two different standards that have to be met in the advanced section. The GUI quality standard and the vJass standard. There should be no inbetween. When a spell has it's own knockback/buff/missile implementation, it should be rejected.

Offtopic That's also an awesome (but oddly still not approved) buff system - http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/submissions-414/snippet-needs-power-time-buff-230697/#post2295956

Yeah I know that and this resource is actually better than BuffGenerator (as it allows stacking buffs). I didn't mention it because it isn't approved yet - it should be!

 

[Kazeon]

for a proper GUI resource, just like what I have said before, maybe we can add new sub-section of resource section for GUI? and if user want to submit random spell with low-quality coding, they can upload it at showcase section (current spell section)

 

[chobibo]

It's too strict, there should be at least 3 - 4 allowed systems per category (i.e. knockback). Upcoming coders would just settle for the eyecandy section, sure the advance section would feature coders who are jewel in the rough, but it would be rough as a desert, barren with life. On the other hand, the eyecandy section would be plagued by inconsistent writing techniques.

 

[Orcnet]

What's wrong with the Spell section? No one's interested on how we gave it much moe/waifu material anymore?.

 

[Rheiko]

lol'ed at that moe/waifu thing

 

[Kazeon]

btw.. it must be a fail showcase section since I see no impression there like: "wow, good submission there" or something, everybody just said you do it wrong here and there.. yeah, just a really hard fail showcase.. so my suggestion:
- spell section => random shit section. since "showcase" doesn't fit anymore
- add sub-section for GUI code
- just disable rating feature on spell section since it's never been used (true story)
although it's nothing better by disabling it

that's all thankyou

 

[Zwiebelchen]

It's too strict, there should be at least 3 - 4 allowed systems per category (i.e. knockback). Upcoming coders would just settle for the eyecandy section, sure the advance section would feature coders who are jewel in the rough, but it would be rough as a desert, barren with life. On the other hand, the eyecandy section would be plagued by inconsistent writing techniques.

Why should there be more allowed than the current "best system"? In most cases you can clearly tell which is the superior system.
Anyone who codes spells can easily adapt his spell to the requirement.

It's just inconvenient (and extremely ineffective) for the users actually browsing the spells section to import 4 different knockback systems just because people submitting spells are too lazy to port their spells to the approved standard.
I'm all in for more strict standards in submissions. The benefits clearly make up for the minor drawbacks.

Having an actually useful spells section with an established set of standards is a win-win situation for everyone.

 

[Rui]

In a perspective of a user, what has always bothered me about spells is the effort it takes to import some of them.

So I like having ideas and the thought of this “Spell Manager” application just came up in my mind. Features would include:

1. Copy the code and create every needed dummy units, projectiles and dummy abilities,
2. Provide a nice interface with the spells' constants you can change (and allow you to change them ofc), and
3. Allow you to manage—as in, add or remove—spells you've previously imported to your map(s) from the Hive.
   

NOTES:
[a] — Perhaps the definition of a global dummy unit and its required characteristics would be in order, if one doesn't exist already. I am pretty sure there are tutorials from back in Daelin's days that suggested the settings, inside the Object Editor, that this dummy unit should have.
— This information could be kept inside the map or the Hive's server.


The concept is not revolutionary since we have GhostWolf's model viewer. I think everyone agrees with me if I speculate there would be less people using it if we had to download it to our desktops before using it (less comfortable). Therefore, this application would be used on the Hive website, just like GhostWolf's.

The negative side about this is that we would force the spell maker to submit additional information, such as the Object Editor settings of any dummy objects used for the spell. We could extract that from the map, because, right now, "Spells" submissions are wc3 maps. My idea, though, was to eliminate the need of a Wc3 map support to import spells altogether—on the user/client's side, but not necessarily the maker's side. As in, from the user's side, the resource “spell” is no longer a wc3 map. It is something you can come to the Hive, import to your map through the application and voila, it's created in the World Editor's Abilities tab and ready to use.

 

[Kazeon]

I hope I don't forget to reply your post later, because I need to offline soon..

but suddenly some random idea came up on my mind after I read your comment:
I think it will be cool to make somekind of autopatch application that automatically import everything (required import files, dummy unit datas, codes, etc.) from a spell to the user's map (you know it's like merge object editor, trigger editor [perhaps new], and import data)? idk is that even possible..

 

[Rui]

Yes, that's part of my idea. Currently, to use a spell someone else made, you've got to download a silly wc3 map, open it, copy what you want, then delete the spell map or something. It's completely uncomfortable and tedious. My idea? You come to the Hive and like the "View in 3D" button you've got this "Import this spell" button, which provides a nice interface for you to do just that. No downloading map and opening involved (as far as the user's aware).

 

[GhostWolf]

This is impossible, since you are asking for a browser to modify local files, which it can't because that's a gigantic security hole.
The best you could do is give your map to the server, let it modify it in whatever ways you want, and then give you back the modified map as a download.

Either way, I am not sure how useful this is for Jass resources, since they usually create their dummies so there is no need for any special importing in the first place.
As to GUI...who even bothers importing GUI spells?

 

[PurgeandFire]

It would be cool to have some more online features integrated in the hive, but it is a pretty big endeavor and I'm unsure how much use it would receive (compared to something like the model viewer).

In general, it would be cool if you could upload your map to the hive and perform little changes here and there. e.g. When you upload a map, you can quickly change the map's internal description, or it's map preview, or w/e. Still, these aren't really *necessary* features. They are just cool.

As for the spells section in general, I can understand why people are concerned. But I don't know if they'll be solved by enforcing stricter standards or making people post flashy albums. People like to code things themselves. If anything, the spells are usually just samples or for inspiration. As dismal as it sounds, it is that way.

By enforcing stricter standards, we may make spells more usable, but I doubt it'll decrease the gloominess of the section. I'm always afraid it'll hinder submissions as well. I like the idea of gif's for spells though. Perhaps I should make a tutorial on it and encourage users to create them.

For now, I'll try to make my reviews more involved. Dalvengyr is correct in that the spell reviews are generally detached from the spell's concept, ideas, and effects (or at least, mine are). I'll try to improve my reviews from now on.

 

[Rui]

This is impossible, since you are asking for a browser to modify local files, which it can't because that's a gigantic security hole.
The best you could do is give your map to the server, let it modify it in whatever ways you want, and then give you back the modified map as a download.

Duh, I know that, of course. The user should browse for the map in his computer and then the server loads all the associated data, either by keeping an internal database or probing over information kept inside the map, like in a comment entry of the Trigger Editor (potential to be broken by the user though).

Perhaps I should get to draw or photoshop something to make the idea a bit clearer.

 

[Ralle]

If we made an API for quick access to things, I am sure somebody could make a tool for this, but that would not be a priority for me at this point.

 

[Rui]

Well, I feel ashamed to be in my second bachelor year and not have a clue where I would start, but how is something like the model viewer embedded into the Hive? What exactly is involved? Does the server do some computation work and throw the results for the browser to display or is the code sent to the user to be executed by the browser?

 

[edo494]

Ghostwolf can correct me, but I believe it is all send to computer and it is rendered on the machine, since it is all JavaScript, it should all work even locally

 

[GhostWolf]

All the parsing and rendering is done in JavaScript. The server is involved in getting the needed files (models, textures, and metadata from resource threads on the Hive in order to load custom models/textures).

For map editing, you will need a MPQ parser, which I assume is harder to make than my code.
It is still not quite clear to me what you want to do, but it sounds more like a server-sided thing than JavaScript.