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Achieving a better spell section:

You want to see such changes happening to the Spells section?


  • Total voters
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Level 11
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Apr 29, 2007
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826
I think there are alot of people who would actually help out in the spell section(including me).
But the knowledge and/or behaviour of those people aren't fitting in there in the most cases.

Well nvm, I'm happy we got new Spell Mods. I've already seen some more reviewed spells now, I hope you guys won't follow the others and go somewhat inactive.
 
Level 25
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Jun 5, 2008
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2,572
Hate when i miss a good debate :p

Glad 2 see new and capable spell moderators joining the hive :)

Also you can't expect moderators to be always active, every single day for 1 simple reason - RL is more important that forums, no offense i like the Hive, like modding stuff and all, but sometimes more important stuff rise and people can simply forget :p

Gz to the new moderators.
 
Level 15
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there still is one problem the spells and systems that werte previously submitted but never reviewed have been left in limbo not being reviewed at all and just reviewing the newest spells and systems. i have 2 systems that have not been reviewed yet that were submitted about 2 months ago, yet i saw lesser version of one of my systems be approved after just 2 days.
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
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Well if you would like more help I could offer my hands because I think I have the skill required to review spells, I have asked PurplePoot and I think it was a no, I am still attempting because sometimes spells don't get reviewed fast enough and the submitters get sad no mods have came by yet while I am on the forum usually 24/7 looking through everything. I am also attempting to put all of hives spells into one giant map to make it easier on some users that want this :) .
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
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By making that statement you prove that you dont.

Reviewing spells takes time. And properly reviewing spells is a time sink.

In my opinion, things get approved too fast here.

I am guessing you just love questioning my skills every single chance you get don't you Deaod?
By making that statement I proved that I got a lot of time on my hands and willing to help out and it had nothing to deal with my skill, a statement doesn't determine a person's skill just so you know Deaod.
I know reviewing spells takes a lot of time and I always properly review anything I see needs it, it doesn't take much time to properly review a spell unless its like a 2 spell part.
In my opinion only users that the mods know get their spells approved faster then others and the others don't get it fast enough.
 
In my opinion, things get approved too fast here.

Standards aren't as high here, as I have told you before.

And before you say to set new standards, It's not up to me.

If you want perfectly coded spells, you can visit wc3c but hive is more of a bulk resource center.

Meaning we don't have time to "properly" review each spell making them require standardized libraries and such.

As much as I would like to review spells this way, we simply don't have the time.
 
Level 14
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816
I am guessing you just love questioning my skills every single chance you get don't you Deaod?
I guess that came out wrong. Erm, i dont particularly care about your skills as a triggerer(/programmer). I just wouldnt give power to anyone who asks for it. Its more a mental skill that i was talking about.

I cant deny that i would hate to see you reviewing my resources, though (guessing from your User Title, you only know GUI, which definitely wont suffice).


Maybe the standards arent as high here. That doesnt mean they couldnt be.
You can save a lot of time if you instantly reject GUI resources. Then you can use that time for better resources.

Wc3c has a very efficient policy: If you use a library thats not in their database, you wont get your code approved. And you have to provide links to all libraries used.

Even a bulk resource center has to be tidy, else you wont find what you need. Imagine having to crawl through heaps and heaps of junk resources, just to find the one gem youve been looking for for over an hour now.
 
Level 5
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Your cries, Deaod, however noble in their intentions, are made in vain. There are a few points which make most of what you're asking impossible here at the Hive.
  • A substantial percentage of the population here is made up of strictly GUI users. In order to satisfy this website's population, GUI must be supported. This is not the case at WC3C, however, which is what makes it so perfect a place for the best of the best of JASS and vJASS.
  • A substantially larger amount of spell and system resources are submitted here than at WC3C, particularly because of having a larger GUI base. Because of this, standards must be lower so as to keep the net flux of submissions at 0 or negative. (Shrinking review queue) This is, again, not the case at WC3C, which is why they can put so much delicate effort into each resource.
The only point I make here that could and should be changed here is that there are too many submission repeats in the resource sections. There are too many systems that do the same things in many, many different ways and all with different APIs and stuff. This site, because of this, is utterly incapable of maintaining standards or posing new ones. (Which is why it all must be deferred to WC3C)

Reviewers should at least run a search before approving anything and verify that similar resources don't exist that are better-made. The last thing you need is, for example, a dozen save/load code systems. How are the users supposed to know which is more applicable given the shoddy state of most documentations? Ratings? Comments? Surely you all agree with me in my saying that those things are unreliable indicators of quality since every reviewer/user rates according to their own scale.
 
Level 5
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The only reasonable way to do that would be to check new resources against old ones of the same type for originality/usefulness/quality. That would keep the standards within reason for this website, and still result in a lot more net rejections for repetitions. I think it's probably the best solution available.
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
Joined
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Messages
200
"I cant deny that i would hate to see you reviewing my resources, though (guessing from your User Title, you only know GUI, which definitely wont suffice)."
I would probably dislike the same thing if you reviewed my resources judging your a jasser.
I actually know more then GUI, I know jass,vjass,learning cjass, i also know zinc, btw I would love to review your resources heh :) .
 
Level 25
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I would at least put more requirements for posting spells, like uploading your frist spell must be aproved before you can upload more, that would cut the number of spells(junk) currently waiting for review as not everyone could upload stuff in the spell section.

Sure this may sound harsh for newbies but i think it is fair, if you achieve in making 1 spell that gets aproved you are qualified to upload more.

Also i think the current moderators are doing something actualy, but a lot of old spells are getting ignored and moderators again pick out the spells that they think should get reviewed :p
 
Well nobody would care at all.

I think we should maybe add something like a classified system.
The better your spells are the higher is your class.

While you can only post new spells on the lowest levels when the old one is approved, the opposite on the max level is that you can submit as much spells/system you want, while that means you are a very experienced coder which puts a lot of efford in all of your work.
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
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200
Yes, because that makes total sense /sarcasm

Furthermore, if you were proficient in vJass you would not be using GUI so you already are not qualified.

Lol, I am proficient in vJass but I like GUI more, I have to know all jass to make a new world editor you know.... So I do think i'm qualified but owell, I only tried to help since some times you guys may not have time when I do.
 
Level 5
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Please, don't act like you're special because you claim to like GUI more, yet apparently know vJass. This isn't a pissing contest; you can do whatever you want, but either keep it on the topic of improving the spell section or I'm going to end up reporting a ton of posts. Thanks.
Kingz said:
Also i think the current moderators are doing something actualy, but a lot of old spells are getting ignored and moderators again pick out the spells that they think should get reviewed :p
This is both unavoidable and actually makes sense. Of course, as a reviewer, you are going to look at resources that appear to be better documented or cleaner. Wouldn't you do that if you had 10 resources to review and you could either finish the 5 easy ones or the 1 really hard one that has no documentation and terribly written code (that you must comment on)?
Anachron said:
While you can only post new spells on the lowest levels when the old one is approved, the opposite on the max level is that you can submit as much spells/system you want, while that means you are a very experienced coder which puts a lot of efford in all of your work.
The last thing we need is a tier system for coder experience or whatever. It would become some kind of ranking for coders and would result in a lot of e-peen problems. If someone is really good at programming, you and the reviewers already know it, and your resources are far more likely to get reviewed first because of it. That alone is reason enough to keep improving, we don't need to manifest your talent as some tier.
 
Level 9
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Aug 2, 2008
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219
I don´t think it´s a good idea to to remove the GUI category, just think about how many people will cry then and how many stupid discussions will be started because of that. Besides there are actually also really great GUI spells in the section. I personally like Kingz idea that someone must proof he/she is able to make spells fitting the rules, before you are allowed to make a official submission. The spells sections may becomes some kind of Medivs tower, but since it´s relatively easy to follow the spell rules it´s also easy to get yourself approved.
 
Level 25
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2,572
It is still sad that even after the purge there is so much pending spells :p

Duragon said:
This is both unavoidable and actually makes sense. Of course, as a reviewer, you are going to look at resources that appear to be better documented or cleaner. Wouldn't you do that if you had 10 resources to review and you could either finish the 5 easy ones or the 1 really hard one that has no documentation and terribly written code (that you must comment on)?

I actualy meant something else, 2 days ago a spell uploaded this week got aproved, so a moderator reviewed it but other spells that may be pending for several weeks/month aren't even REVIEWED this one got reviewed and aproved within 2 days lol :p

Too bad our moderators are easily influenced :p
 
Level 5
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Ralle said:
Supporting only JASS/vJASS spells would be a good way to shrink the amount of submissions and raise the quality of the submissions.
I mean, it would, but it'd also cut the feet out from under countless members of the site who visit this site specifically because it supports GUI. The advantage to what you're proposing, however, is that it forces the GUI users to up the anty and improve if they want to keep submitting resources. That would substantially improve the net quality of coding in WC3 across all websites. (Since THW is basically the only site currently that religiously supports GUI)

It would really need to be an executive decision made with advisement from the spell section staff. Get all of those reviewers together and pose the thought to them. There are advantages and disadvantages either way and it's up to the staff to weigh them accordingly.

This plan of attack would presumably be lead by a "Development Director," but since the loss of PurplePoot, there hasn't been a replacement. Just having looked around the site for a few months, I don't think anyone's really qualified either. You, Ralle, as Site Owner, could lead the way, though.
Kingz said:
Too bad our moderators are easily influenced :p
It is a good thing that they are, so long as such influence is fair. If a user is talented, his resources will be reviewed quicker. That is a good influence to have, because it promotes users improving. If they're being bribed with rep (Not accusing anyone here, just postulating), then that's a problem and needs to be addressed.

I think presently, the staff is doing a fine job. It is, whether you admit it or not, easier to review things on the first page than dig to a deeper page and find something there. It's also possible that certain things are avoided just because they require so much time investment to review. There are lots of factors to consider, here.
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
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200
"Please, don't act like you're special because you claim to like GUI more, yet apparently know vJass. This isn't a pissing contest; you can do whatever you want, but either keep it on the topic of improving the spell section or I'm going to end up reporting a ton of posts. Thanks."

OffTopic: I wasn't even close to acting special... I know it isn't a pissing contest or a contest, I am trying to keep it on topic but people keep questioning me it seems and I just can't sit back and take it, if you report my posts then don't forget the others.

OnTopic: I think the mods should dig deeper some times.
 
Level 9
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533
OnTopic: I think the mods should dig deeper some times.

I think they theoreticaly should review everythink

While you can only post new spells on the lowest levels when the old one is approved, the opposite on the max level is that you can submit as much spells/system you want, while that means you are a very experienced coder which puts a lot of efford in all of your work.

Thats bad, just think of your spell never get's reiviewed...
I think there aren't to much users which spam such bad spells, most users which create much spells get better anyway. SO this wont solve the problem.

Maybe hive should really stop supporting gui spells, That doeas't mean that hive should stop supporting gui totally.
 
Ugh....

Supporting only GUI spells will drastically reduce the spells database. There are actually some quality GUI spells in there btw. If we switch to only GUI I foresee a lot of pissed of people spamming the contact forum and my inbox, as well as people still submitting GUI spells because they aren't aware of the rule.

It's honestly fine how it is now, we are slowly reducing the spell section. I mean just yesterday I reviewed like 9 spells/systems (and in no particular order, I might add). The problem may be with us not being the most active mods but we do have real lifes and I try to review whenever I can. I will also keep in mind that there are hella old spells in there that still need reviews, but generally old spells have crappy code and they are not fun to review.

So please, just let us do our job and if you feel one of the moderators isn't good enough, post in the contact forum.
 

N.O

N.O

Level 6
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Well I offered help because my life is warcraft basically.... lol
I have a lot of patience as well :D .
But ok I won't bug anymore :) .
Btw I like reviewing the spells with crappy codes more then the good codes, less variables to look at usually.
 
Level 5
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TriggerHappy said:
Supporting only GUI spells will drastically reduce the spells database. There are actually some quality GUI spells in there btw. If we switch to only GUI I foresee a lot of pissed of people spamming the contact forum and my inbox, as well as people still submitting GUI spells because they aren't aware of the rule.
Ralle and Deaod are making the case to support only JASS and vJASS spells/systems and to not support GUI any longer in the submission categories. I feel like you knew that, however, and just posted backwards.

Anyways, the frustration would only be temporary at best. It'd be a real serious movement towards telling those users that "Hey, you want to get better and keep up with the Hive? Work in JASS." There are pros and cons both ways, really, but no one person can make the call in either direction.
N.O said:
Well I offered help because my life is warcraft basically.... lol
I have a lot of patience as well :D .
But ok I won't bug anymore :) .
Btw I like reviewing the spells with crappy codes more then the good codes, less variables to look at usually.
You have 169 posts and have barely had the time to prove yourself to the staff as qualified to do anything. If they need another spell reviewer, and you are qualified, they will come to you. They do not accept applications. That's even in the rules somewhere, if you read those.
 
Level 12
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Why are we agruing about two things that become the exact same after you push the "test" button? People that could read a simple tutorial could code GUI, convert to JASS in the editor and fix up all "Teh evilz" that GUI possess.

GUI also takes over JASS in the fact that many people are too lazy to find the correct area to enter the Spell ID, and even more people asking what to change/why it doesn't complie.

Removing GUI from the Hive completly is a mistake, we have a great base of GUI coders that can make systems that match that of JASS ones (With limits). If anything, remove it from the spells section, but add a GUI sub-forum in Triggers-n-Scripts so people that are starting can get feedback on their spells.

We all start somewere.
 
Level 5
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I don't mean to be rude, but you of all people should recognize that the rift between JASS and GUI is not so much a perceived separation as it is a tangible canyon. While I agree that writing GUI off entirely is wrong, it can be removed from the resource sections and yet still supported in the trigger section of the site.

Anyways, I'm impartial either way, but there are pros and cons to both sides. If you're going to argue one way or the other, though, at the least do so with legitimate claims.
 
Level 40
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10,532
The problem with GUI is much less efficiency, readability, etc (those are more personal flaws, and especially in the first case rarely come up) and much more portability. Spells in GUI are a great resource for other GUIers to learn, but they are so much more difficult to implement into a map than their JASS equivalents that they're generally useless; it's often just as fast or faster to implement the spell yourself than to use one. On the other hand, however, submitted spells are rarely used regardless of code, so the question becomes whether the spells section is really a spells section or just a samples section after all.

Allowing only JASS makes sense from a resource point of view (regardless of those who think it's unfair; you're rooting for the losing team, get over it), but allowing GUI makes sense from a samples point of view. I think the issue is thus that the Hive needs to decide what its spell section is.
 
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TriggerHappy said:
I will also keep in mind that there are hella old spells in there that still need reviews, but generally old spells have crappy code and they are not fun to review.

...
Do i even need to comment this?
You just said that an old spell is a bad spell right?
As far as i know Jass is as old as the game so that sentence makes no sense...
Guess why are they so old? No one reviewed them....

You have to agree that when you upload your resource here you expect it gets reviewed EVENTUALY, not burrowed down and forgoten.

If this site has become a place where you need to wait months/years to see your resource reviewed i think i may just leave...

Also you can't just refuse to take a look at a spell because it isn't good looking on first sight, someone spent time making it, someone should spend time taking look at it.

Separating JASS resources from GUI ones would be nice, though if you terminate GUI there will be a lot of angry people.
 
Do i even need to comment this?
You just said that an old spell is a bad spell right?
As far as i know Jass is as old as the game so that sentence makes no sense...
Guess why are they so old? No one reviewed them....

Please note the word generally. I say this because standards are constantly changing while spells from a year ago are most likely using old standards. And keep in mind the people get better at coding over time, so generally their older spells are crapp(ier)y.

You have to agree that when you upload your resource here you expect it gets reviewed EVENTUALY, not burrowed down and forgoten.

I can't control what the other mods are doing, but I am active. I mean I knocked an entire page off the pending spells today (and about 25 spells last week). I was inactive for about a month due to school (which I made a post about in the mods lobby).

If this site has become a place where you need to wait months/years to see your resource reviewed i think i may just leave...

I predict in about two months (tops) the spell section should be constantly at 1-2 pending pages (if I my activity is the same).

Also you can't just refuse to take a look at a spell because it isn't good looking on first sight, someone spent time making it, someone should spend time taking look at it.

I don't recall where I said that (if you were referring to me).

Separating JASS resources from GUI ones would be nice, though if you terminate GUI there will be a lot of angry people.

Use the search feature to query only Jass resources.
 
Level 25
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Also you can't just refuse to take a look at a spell because it isn't good looking on first sight, someone spent time making it, someone should spend time taking look at it.

I don't recall where I said that (if you were referring to me).

I wasn't refering to you, but someone did mention that it is normal that moderators pick out the spells They want to review, not in the order it should be.

EDIT:

The only active mods i know are triggerhappy and the_reborn_devil(mostly active), but wasn't hvo-busterkomo also a moderator? I haven't seen him in some time now.
 
Level 14
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I just wanna know why u guys wanna eliminate GUI, there are a lot of good GUI spell makers on Hive. Also not everyone care that GUI isn't as efficient as Jass.

I'm not trying to provoke any jassers as I prefer jass asswell [witch is why I'm trying to learn it] but to terminate GUI completely seems kinda harsh.
 
Level 15
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I personally dont think the Spell section is such a mess
generally the pending spells have been reduced alot and i can see some active mods in the section. Sure there are many pending spells left and the number of active mods could be bigger but you should remember thats a Sisyphus kind of work dues its never finished and there will be always new submitted spells

I kinda like the idea to restrict GUI here due many newbies submitting bad GUI spells make "useless" work for mods. Raising the standards atall is good
But i think one quality of hive is thats is supports not just high quality Jass spells like on wc3c. It is just a site not like wc3c or epicwar - its just hive
and i think restricting GUI would split the hives community and damage it in the end
i also think that there can be good spells in GUI even i definitely prefer Jass and use it nearly everywhere

PurplePoot said:
I think the issue is thus that the Hive needs to decide what its spell section is.

You got the heart of it. And i thinks its a very hard decision
I am also not sure due im dont know how many people learn from spells or use GUI spells, cuz i dont use others spells atall
but removing the opinion to learn from such samples would also obstruct the way for some newcomers which join wc3 modding
theres also the question how many newcomers there are or will be in future due wc3 is quite old now and if we keep SC2 in mind ...
 
Level 17
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Damn you people still arguing here? :p
Ok, to make a point clear, I might have not been around for a while, but the_reborn_devil is doing a great job when it comes to modding. And so is TriggerHappy who is more experienced that reborn and able to review the really tough codes. So there's both, quantity & quality.

Also now there's the mini-modding thing, so a crappy spell could be instantly rejected ;)

I think all is ok now... the only thing I might admire would be if the forum is sectioned into different categories: Systems, Jass, GUI. Simple and nice :)

Enjoy guys!
 
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