Reforged code is broken lazy mess. Beware

[Anaxie]

Menu UI on electron can't handle 3D.

Probably another reason 3d backgrounds or stuff like tomoraiders CotF or Dark28s Natures call 2 backgrounds would error out.

Dammit blizzard.

 

[Tamplier]

Menu UI on electron can't handle 3D.

Do you mean the mdx file selected in custom campaigns as the campaign screen can't be rendered in the Reforged Menu?

That is the only reason?
Omfg...
They could have walked it around with some generic stub screen for the custom campaign. At least it would be playable.

 

[Anaxie]

Do you mean the mdx file selected in custom campaigns as the campaign screen can't be rendered in the Reforged Menu?

They wouldnt wanna allow it anyway it would give classic plebs color in their campaign menu

 

[Razorclaw_X]

Eh, I'm a christian myself and I'm aware of the DnD moral panic that happened, but I really doubt that sort of thing is relevant to changes or censorship done in Reforged, especially in this day and age. I mean, at least you could speculate that they are changing things for China for reasons we all have heard, but what old granny is holding anything anything over blizzards head? lol

It makes more sense when you remember what is actually being censored and where-- the Chinese filter is almost consistently removing skeletons. No one has proven that it removes half-naked bat winged women.

 

[Venombite]

It makes more sense when you remember what is actually being censored and where-- the Chinese filter is almost consistently removing skeletons. No one has proven that it removes half-naked bat winged women.

I've heard they're censoring everything with even a hint of pornography. (from non pornographic media of course)

 

[Domcho]

Could you forward this to blizzard.

This explains his 2 appearances then his only other appearance is the wave 11 ultimate thats why ive been not seeing hin

Also you forgot on archimode to denote that he has no items either. Most important of which was his ankh.

Im fairly sure the double hero wave bugs him out until you move to a new base and reset the script


Also there is no way tft ruleset makes it easier

First off doom lords , felhounds, and infernals dont take 150% ranged damage from hipps. And hipps do 30 not 37 top end damage in tft ruleset. And when you count trueshot aura ito it hipps do roughly 3/5 their normal damage vs RoC

Perhaps them removing rage winterchill was intentional

Mass hipps has always by far been the easiest thing to full clear the level with

How do I forward it to the Blizzard? I already made a forum post about campaign issues on the forums a few days ago, you even commented in it but it sank deep into the sea of bug reports. I can make another one but I doubt they'll notice it.

Yeah, I forgot about Archimonde's items. Thanks for reminding me!

As for RoC and TFT rulesets - you're right about the damage, but the way I beat this mission in Reforged during my tests I did the same thing - take only 1 of the 2 extra gold mines at the beginning for the whole game, mass Archers and Druid of the Claw with full upgrades from 2 Ancients of War and 2 Ancients of Lore right outside Jaina's Northern base entrance. Every time Azgalor arrived I lost around 80% - 90% of my army, because I didn't micro. Yet it didn't matter, with just 2 gold mines I had enough gold to reproduce my Druids of the Claw and Archers before the next wave. Just spam Tranquility with Malfurion (who should be Furion without a mount btw...) on every wave and Starfall with Tyrande when there's a tough wave. Roar + Rejuvenation as well. By the way, Frost Wyrms have piercing damage instead of magical, which means Bears take less damage from them. I didn't get into High Upkeep. I only had 1 full control group of Archers (12 in total) and 8 Bears. That's what my army looked most of the time.

As someone who played this mission numerous times back in the day, I could never hold Jaina's base. So after numerous plays my strategy was to just let her die and try to hold Thrall's base by spamming Goblin Land Mines. Now I'm pretty sure my skill improved over the years since then, but I don't think the difficulty issue is my skill being too high for this mission, and we're talking Hard difficulty here.

2 more things, albeit trivial, that piss me off about the Reforged version - Anetheron is using the fat Dreadlord model, and Archimonde is facing the wrong way, he should be looking towards Jaina's base.

Found 1 more stupid issue with the mission: when Thrall's base falls - during the cinematic Thrall doesn't cast Chain Lightning on Archimonde because the 3 invisible dummy units that are used for the Chain Lightning are Little Timmy children. In Reforged, Blizzard made children invulnerable, so Thrall just does 1 normal attack and teleports away now. The solution is to just remove the invulnerability of the Little Timmy dummy units and it's fixed. But it seems the people who worked on making the Reforged version of the map have not gotten that far with their knowledge of the World Editor? I mean, I have a very primitive knowledge of the WE, and even I know this... come on...

Also, I found out I have Warcraft 3 version 1.27 on my old laptop. I'll try to test the mission there sometime later using the same Bear + Archer strategy, although playing WC3 on it, with it's small buttons will, by itself, make it harder for me. We'll see how it goes.

 

[deepstrasz]

How do I forward it to the Blizzard? I already made a forum post about campaign issues on the forums a few days ago, you even commented in it but it sank deep into the sea of bug reports. I can make another one but I doubt they'll notice it.

Please bump it instead with a message. See the rules on this matter:
Site Rules
Do not clone threads, please.
It works pretty much the same on the official Reforged forums.

 

[Anaxie]

How do I forward it to the Blizzard? I already made a forum post about campaign issues on the forums a few days ago, you even commented in it but it sank deep into the sea of bug reports. I can make another one but I doubt they'll notice it.

Yeah, I forgot about Archimonde's items. Thanks for reminding me!

As for RoC and TFT rulesets - you're right about the damage, but the way I beat this mission in Reforged during my tests I did the same thing - take only 1 of the 2 extra gold mines at the beginning for the whole game, mass Archers and Druid of the Claw with full upgrades from 2 Ancients of War and 2 Ancients of Lore right outside Jaina's Northern base entrance. Every time Azgalor arrived I lost around 80% - 90% of my army, because I didn't micro. Yet it didn't matter, with just 2 gold mines I had enough gold to reproduce my Druids of the Claw and Archers before the next wave. Just spam Tranquility with Malfurion (who should be Furion without a mount btw...) on every wave and Starfall with Tyrande when there's a tough wave. Roar + Rejuvenation as well. By the way, Frost Wyrms have piercing damage instead of magical, which means Bears take less damage from them. I didn't get into High Upkeep. I only had 1 full control group of Archers (12 in total) and 8 Bears. That's what my army looked most of the time.

As someone who played this mission numerous times back in the day, I could never hold Jaina's base. So after numerous plays my strategy was to just let her die and try to hold Thrall's base by spamming Goblin Land Mines. Now I'm pretty sure my skill improved over the years since then, but I don't think the difficulty issue is my skill being too high for this mission, and we're talking Hard difficulty here.

2 more things, albeit trivial, that piss me off about the Reforged version - Anetheron is using the fat Dreadlord model, and Archimonde is facing the wrong way, he should be looking towards Jaina's base.

Found 1 more stupid issue with the mission: when Thrall's base falls - during the cinematic Thrall doesn't cast Chain Lightning on Archimonde because the 3 invisible dummy units that are used for the Chain Lightning are Little Timmy children. In Reforged, Blizzard made children invulnerable, so Thrall just does 1 normal attack and teleports away now. The solution is to just remove the invulnerability of the Little Timmy dummy units and it's fixed. But it seems the people who worked on making the Reforged version of the map have not gotten that far with their knowledge of the World Editor? I mean, I have a very primitive knowledge of the WE, and even I know this... come on...

Also, I found out I have Warcraft 3 version 1.27 on my old laptop. I'll try to test the mission there sometime later using the same Bear + Archer strategy, although playing WC3 on it, with it's small buttons will, by itself, make it harder for me. We'll see how it goes.

With mass hipps i lose prob 10 units sitting in one base all match in tft ruleset woth nerfed hipp riders.

Just saying

No towers no wells

Yeah the fat dreadlord should of been exclusively detheroc its jarring seeing it be anetheron

 

[deepstrasz]

Yeah the fat dreadlord should of been exclusively detheroc its jarring seeing it be anetheron

Yeah. Ugh. It made sense with the three brothers for differentiation, character and whatnot.

 

[Domcho]

Guys, I tested the mission on 1.27. Since I had Warcraft 3 installed on my laptop but never played the campaign on it, I had to use cheat to unlock all the levels, hence I had no items nor manually trained abilities from previous missions. I noticed on Reforged, the player starts with 1 extra level? Because here I started with level 5 heroes, I think. I am not sure about the levels but I didn't have Starfall nor Tranquility. I had to level up both my heroes first, in order to get them, but that might be because the heroes are auto-generated instead of loaded from the previous mission.

The culprits have been discovered - Rage Winterchill does not show up for the final wave (11th wave for Jaina and Thrall, and 13th wave for the player). Not only that, but after this wave, the next one, which is repeated (wave 9 for Jaina and Thrall, wave 11 for the player) is supposed to have Azgalor in it. If you killed him he should revive and join in AGAIN. Basically, for Jaina and Thrall, Azgalor is supposed to participate in wave 9 and wave 11 ALWAYS, unless Wave 9 is sent and Azgalor is still alive from the previous one (wave 11). Remember wave 9, 10 and 11 are looped until Jaina's / Thrall's base gets destroyed.

Anetheron's Rain of Chaos summons 3 Infernals.

Last but not least, playing RoC with only 2 gold mines, reaching Low Upkeep at 40 food and High Upkeep at 70 food definitely caused problems for my Bears + Archers strategy, unlike in Reforged where I kept losing units and still had enough gold to reproduce. Remember what I said from my previous post - I lose 80% - 90% of my army because of Azgalor (if I don't try to micro my units). Which means if I'm on wave 11 (on which he's suppose to participate ALONG WITH Rage Winterchill) and kill him, he's gonna come back again on Wave 9, before I have my army rebuilt (keep in mind RoC Upkeep rules and unit costs). Wave 11 is definitely the hardest one, since it's the final wave with 2 heroes. Frost Nova with Shockwave completely massacres my Bears and Archers. On top of that, Azgalor should be back on the next wave for more Claps and Shockwaves... none of this is the case in Reforged.

Unlike in Reforged, I also had mana problems on Furion because of Felhound waves mana burning him. By the way, on my Reforged testing I never used Force of Nature, not even once. I didn't need it. Here with occasional uses of Force of Nature and mana burns, I had to run him back to my Moon Wells.

Here are a few screenshots I made during the mission, that will give you a rough idea of how it went:

Twilight of the Gods (RoC version 1.27 Hard Difficulty)

I have to admit, the mission felt super fun and challenging in RoC 1.27, compared to the casual faceroll it is in Reforged... on "Hard" difficulty...

My conclusion is: they either changed the script to not have Rage Winterchill participate in the final wave OR they messed something deeper in their base code and the JASS AI script is not functioning the way it did. I am assuming it's the 2nd. But in order to confirm that, we'll need someone to RIP the current AI script file from the game, so we can compare it with the old one from the MPQ.
As for the non-script issues, RoC vs TFT ruleset can be mitigated by bringing back the RoC prices of units / buildings / upgrades. Archimonde's level and items can be fixed in 5 seconds, as well as the Little Timmy dummy units for Thrall vs Acrhimonde cinematic by just removing the Invulnerable stat from them. For the final cinematic, Archimonde is supposed to stop, play his Rain of Fire cast type animation and blow up the player's buildings that stand in his way to the gate. In Reforged he just walks past them and they blow up - to me that looks dumb.

 

[Daffa]

Glad somebody confirmed it. I personally was at disbelief that Twilight of the Gods doesn't have RW attack late into the battle. I remember him steamroll with Azralor that I have a lot of headaches and end up cheating said mission.

 

[Razorclaw_X]

Found 1 more stupid issue with the mission: when Thrall's base falls - during the cinematic Thrall doesn't cast Chain Lightning on Archimonde because the 3 invisible dummy units that are used for the Chain Lightning are Little Timmy children. In Reforged, Blizzard made children invulnerable, so Thrall just does 1 normal attack and teleports away now. The solution is to just remove the invulnerability of the Little Timmy dummy units and it's fixed. But it seems the people who worked on making the Reforged version of the map have not gotten that far with their knowledge of the World Editor? I mean, I have a very primitive knowledge of the WE, and even I know this... come on...

This is generally the issue with changing someone else's code without knowing why things are the way they are.

I imagine how hilarious shenanigans would be if someone made all the dummy Rabbits in WoW** invulnerable thinking "rabbits are too cue to die" and then the entire game crashes.


** invisible rabbits are used as dummy units for nearly every effect/quest in the game.

 

[Standhaft]

I don't know if I noted it here, but children are invulnerable in the undead campaign missions (like mission 1 with vandemar village) so everyone around them can be killed but the children are just invulnerable against the undead horde.

It's stupid and really undercuts the supposed horror.

Edit: the rabbit thing reminded me of that. It doesn't seem to literally break the game or anything, but I personally found it very jarring and immersion breaking. It's like one second Arthas and the undead horde are massacring everyone and then the next they're like "ya but we don't kill kids because that would be wrong... we just orphan them".

 

[Anaxie]

Does anyone know how to change these values

The washed out look of reforged is the worst part imo

It COULD look fine.

 

[glebosaur]

Could you extract this map view image in reforged editor?

Spoiler

 

[Anaxie]

More classic to deforged downgrades
https://reddit.app.link/9LfZCqFoZ3
Actually shocking

 

[Tamplier]

I started remastering dalaran from Undead 07 mission. I just want to show everybody that even this mess can be fixed for 10-12 hours of level designing. Just adding buildings, walls (that are already existing in object editor!!!!) and minor fixes of the terrain can do a significant impact on perception of the city. But they Haven't even Tried!!

 

[Standhaft]

I started remastering dalaran from Undead 07 mission. I just want to show everybody that even this mess can be fixed for 10-12 hours of level designing. Just adding buildings, walls (that are already existing in object editor!!!!) and minor fixes of the terrain can do a significant impact on perception of the city. But they Haven't even Tried!!

Let me know when you finish it. I would be down to try it out!

 

[glebosaur]

original secret titles has separate map for each of them, right?
I wonder if I could extract it somehow and launch via reforged world editor to watch how it looks now.

 

[Amigoltu]

so instead they half assed probably one of the most influential and legendary games of all time.

Sound logic

It makes perfect sense for a company. As previously said, RTS genre was (at least officially) declining. But what is more important, is that with Wow, blizz could actually sell the product repeatedly, through the use of subscriptions. That is guaranteed, ongoing profit for years to come. Especially considering Wow blew in popularity, as it did. Of course, they are selling a product as a service, which is a shitty thing to do, but...

The sad truth is, that blizz doesn't give a shit about it's product quality, or it's customers. For them, money is above both of those. Look at Diablo Immortal - it wasn't a "mistake in communication", or whatever CEO of blizz claimed it was. It was fully deliberate attempt to capitalize on booming mobile platform, and blizz thought they'd get away with it. Only after all that backlash, they had no choice but to cave.
(though as far as I heard, diablo immortal is still rather popular on eastern market)

And that's the point. Blizz seems to be reacting to backlash. First diablo, then wow classic, now blizz is actually paying attention to the reforged backlash. And that's good. The fanbase must keep the fire going. Beat them into submission. That's the only way to speak to today's AAA companies.

 

[Domcho]

Guys, after 12+ hours of testing, it turned out the problem was not in the script... it was actually a supply issue for the AI caused by the TFT ruleset, for which I had no clue. I already made a long reddit post explaining it, but I'll post it here as well.

Reminder: Azgalor must show back to back on Wave 11 and Wave 9. Rage Winterchill must accompany him on Wave 11.

The way the AI works: it ALWAYS produces the units first, then, at the end, right before sending the wave, it revives the heroes. We're talking about Hard difficulty, the AI produces more units for each wave than on Normal. The extra time added between some waves is also smaller on Hard.

Since this mission was originally designed for RoC, back when TFT and it's ruleset didn't exist, the mission creators did the following:
AI starts with 1 Black Citadel (providing 10 food) and 3 Spirit Towers (providing 20 food each). Later the AI builds a Ziggurat (20 food again) and reaches the RoC cap of 90 max supply.
AI starts with 1 Acolyte, the script later calls for the AI to produce 4 more, and 15 Ghouls for lumber harvesting.
Because this is the final mission in RoC - it has to be a tough one to beat. The AI is suppose to send massive amount of units, and for some reason it has 15 Ghouls for lumber. So the original map makers reduced the food cost of ALL units (except Acolytes - 1 food, specific type of Necromancers (which are not used) and Banshees - 2 food). Ghouls cost 1 food, Frost Wyrms cost 3 food, Crypt Fiends cost 2 food, Abominations and Meat Wagons - 3 food, Gargoyles - 1 food, etc... - this prevents the AI from getting supply stuck.
It turns out, however, in RoC, Felhounds (called Fel Stalkers in TFT), Doom Guards, and Infernals cost 0 food. That's not the case for TFT, where they cost 4 - 6 - 6 food respectively.
When the mission was designed in the RoC World Editor, the developers had no reason to touch the food cost of the Burning Legion units, simply because by default, they all cost 0 food.

So imagine the following scenario:
Target: Jaina's base.
Next wave: Wave 10

• Dreadlord Anetheron - 5 food
  
• 6 Crypt Fiends - 12 food
  
• 3 Necromancers - 3 food
  
• 3 Banshees - 6 food (there are different types of Banshees, these ones cost 2 food each, rather than 1)
  
• 5 Abominations - 15 food
  
• 3 Infernals - 0 food (RoC) / 18 food (TFT)
  
• 2 Meat Wagons at least - 6 food or more

Total: at least 47 food (RoC) / at least 65 food (TFT)
Now add around 20 food (5 Acolytes + ~15 Ghouls) and you get:
67 food (RoC) / 85 food (TFT)

Again NOTE: The heroes are ALWAYS the last to be added to the wave, meaning the AI will produce the units, and after that, revive the heroes. So in this scenario Anetheron will be revived when the AI reaches 80 supply. (TFT)
Also keep in mind, the AI has 90 supply cap (Black Citadel - 10 food, 4 modified Ziggurats / Spirit Towers - 80 food)

Now consider the following: Since a wave is formed in a rather short period of time after the previous one is sent, you could end up in a situation where the player hasn't killed all the units from Wave 9 before Wave 10 is sent. Additionally, there is a function in the script called "Bonus Love", which adds additional Meat Wagons (3 food) per wave, by a factor based on the amount of Ancient Protectors the player has (you start the mission with 4 in your base). More bonus Meat Wagons are added on Hard difficulty. For this particular Wave 10, this means that even if you killed everything from the previous wave, if you have Ancient Protectors, the AI will build extra Meat Wagons. Now add up all the numbers I listed above and remember: Anetheron will be the last one to join the party - and you have your answer why he might not show up. The AI will get supply blocked before it even produces all the units it has to.

There is still 1 thing that's not entirely clear to me. The Pit Lord not being revived for Wave 11. Azgalor actually costs 0 food. But I do have a theory of why the AI is not reviving him. Rage Winterchill is ALWAYS revived before Azgalor. The AI gets supply stuck again, before getting to the Lich, so it probably keeps on attempting to revive it, much like a player, who's supply stuck, and spamming his hero icon in the Altar while hearing "SUMMON MORE ZIGGURATS" over and over again. Since the wave is sent before Rage Winterchill is revived, the next one (Wave 9) is called. The AI drops the command for reviving the Lich and starts to, or rather attempts to, produce the units for the next wave and eventually does when units from Wave 11 start dying. If the units from Wave 11 die quickly enough, before Wave 9 is sent, the AI will have enough supply to successfully produce the full composition of units required, and finally revive Azgalor. If not, Azgalor will be skipped once again.

Additional note: If you want to test the mission on Hard difficulty through the editor, you'll stumble upon a problem. By default, as far as I know, all maps run on Normal difficulty (outside a campaign). That default game Normal difficulty is built into the game, to my knowledge. This means you'll need to, not only change all triggers that check for the Hard difficulty from (if Difficulty == Hard) to (if Difficulty == Normal), triggers such as Int Hard Difficulty inside the Map Initialization folder, but you'll also need to use a modified version of the AI script. The script has numerous conditions where it checks for the difficulty, such as the amount of units produced for each wave, the extra time added between some waves, the bonus Meat Wagons factor per Ancient Protector, etc...
I had to edit all those lines of code inside the script, by readjusting the parameters given for Normal difficulty to be the ones used for Hard, but I also added extra functions that print information on the screen to make the mission easier for debugging.

EDIT: It turns out you can set the game difficulty to Hard under File -> Preferences -> Test Map -> Difficulty Level. I am so embarrassed for not knowing this.

I need to take a break now, but later I will try to create a fixed version of the map and upload it.

EDIT: Here are some screenshots from my testing after modifying the mission, I had to go as far as playing as the Undead player to figure it all out:

RoC Burning Legion unit costs.

TFT Burning Legion Unit Costs (Azgalor costs no food)

Wave 11 - Both Azgalor and Rage Winterchill.

Wave 9, second loop iteration

Anetheron on Wave 10 (second iteration)

Wave 11 (second iteration) Azgalor + Rage Winterchill

 

[MasterBlaster]

Just wanted to say that your dedication to figuring this out is really impressive and... well done on your findings! Hopefully Blizzard listens.

 

[Daffa]

Can be fixed by simply tampering the map numbers, that's good to hear.

 

[Anaxie]

Guys, after 12+ hours of testing, it turned out the problem was not in the script... it was actually a supply issue for the AI caused by the TFT ruleset, for which I had no clue. I already made a long reddit post explaining it, but I'll post it here as well.

Reminder: Azgalor must show back to back on Wave 11 and Wave 9. Rage Winterchill must accompany him on Wave 11.

The way the AI works: it ALWAYS produces the units first, then, at the end, right before sending the wave, it revives the heroes. We're talking about Hard difficulty, the AI produces more units for each wave than on Normal. The extra time added between some waves is also smaller on Hard.

Since this mission was originally designed for RoC, back when TFT and it's ruleset didn't exist, the mission creators did the following:
AI starts with 1 Black Citadel (providing 10 food) and 3 Spirit Towers (providing 20 food each). Later the AI builds a Ziggurat (20 food again) and reaches the RoC cap of 90 max supply.
AI starts with 1 Acolyte, the script later calls for the AI to produce 4 more, and 15 Ghouls for lumber harvesting.
Because this is the final mission in RoC - it has to be a tough one to beat. The AI is suppose to send massive amount of units, and for some reason it has 15 Ghouls for lumber. So the original map makers reduced the food cost of ALL units (except Acolytes - 1 food, specific type of Necromancers (which are not used) and Banshees - 2 food). Ghouls cost 1 food, Frost Wyrms cost 3 food, Crypt Fiends cost 2 food, Abominations and Meat Wagons - 3 food, Gargoyles - 1 food, etc... - this prevents the AI from getting supply stuck.
It turns out, however, in RoC, Felhounds (called Fel Stalkers in TFT), Doom Guards, and Infernals cost 0 food. That's not the case for TFT, where they cost 4 - 6 - 6 food respectively.
When the mission was designed in the RoC World Editor, the developers had no reason to touch the food cost of the Burning Legion units, simply because by default, they all cost 0 food.

So imagine the following scenario:
Target: Jaina's base.
Next wave: Wave 10

• Dreadlord Anetheron - 5 food
  
• 6 Crypt Fiends - 12 food
  
• 3 Necromancers - 3 food
  
• 3 Banshees - 6 food (there are different types of Banshees, these ones cost 2 food each, rather than 1)
  
• 5 Abominations - 15 food
  
• 3 Infernals - 0 food (RoC) / 18 food (TFT)
  
• 2 Meat Wagons at least - 6 food or more

Total: at least 47 food (RoC) / at least 65 food (TFT)
Now add around 20 food (5 Acolytes + ~15 Ghouls) and you get:
67 food (RoC) / 85 food (TFT)

Again NOTE: The heroes are ALWAYS the last to be added to the wave, meaning the AI will produce the units, and after that, revive the heroes. So in this scenario Anetheron will be revived when the AI reaches 80 supply. (TFT)
Also keep in mind, the AI has 90 supply cap (Black Citadel - 10 food, 4 modified Ziggurats / Spirit Towers - 80 food)

Now consider the following: Since a wave is formed in a rather short period of time after the previous one is sent, you could end up in a situation where the player hasn't killed all the units from Wave 9 before Wave 10 is sent. Additionally, there is a function in the script called "Bonus Love", which adds additional Meat Wagons (3 food) per wave, by a factor based on the amount of Ancient Protectors the player has (you start the mission with 4 in your base). More bonus Meat Wagons are added on Hard difficulty. For this particular Wave 10, this means that even if you killed everything from the previous wave, if you have Ancient Protectors, the AI will build extra Meat Wagons. Now add up all the numbers I listed above and remember: Anetheron will be the last one to join the party - and you have your answer why he might not show up. The AI will get supply blocked before it even produces all the units it has to.

There is still 1 thing that's not entirely clear to me. The Pit Lord not being revived for Wave 11. Azgalor actually costs 0 food. But I do have a theory of why the AI is not reviving him. Rage Winterchill is ALWAYS revived before Azgalor. The AI gets supply stuck again, before getting to the Lich, so it probably keeps on attempting to revive it, much like a player, who's supply stuck, and spamming his hero icon in the Altar while hearing "SUMMON MORE ZIGGURATS" over and over again. Since the wave is sent before Rage Winterchill is revived, the next one (Wave 9) is called. The AI drops the command for reviving the Lich and starts to, or rather attempts to, produce the units for the next wave and eventually does when units from Wave 11 start dying. If the units from Wave 11 die quickly enough, before Wave 9 is sent, the AI will have enough supply to successfully produce the full composition of units required, and finally revive Azgalor. If not, Azgalor will be skipped once again.

Additional note: If you want to test the mission on Hard difficulty through the editor, you'll stumble upon a problem. By default, as far as I know, all maps run on Normal difficulty (outside a campaign). That default game Normal difficulty is built into the game, to my knowledge. This means you'll need to, not only change all triggers that check for the Hard difficulty from (if Difficulty == Hard) to (if Difficulty == Normal), triggers such as Int Hard Difficulty inside the Map Initialization folder, but you'll also need to use a modified version of the AI script. The script has numerous conditions where it checks for the difficulty, such as the amount of units produced for each wave, the extra time added between some waves, the bonus Meat Wagons factor per Ancient Protector, etc...
I had to edit all those lines of code inside the script, by readjusting the parameters given for Normal difficulty to be the ones used for Hard, but I also added extra functions that print information on the screen to make the mission easier for debugging.

EDIT: It turns out you can set the game difficulty to Hard under File -> Preferences -> Test Map -> Difficulty Level. I am so embarrassed for not knowing this.

I need to take a break now, but later I will try to create a fixed version of the map and upload it.

EDIT: Here are some screenshots from my testing after modifying the mission, I had to go as far as playing as the Undead player to figure it all out:

RoC Burning Legion unit costs.

TFT Burning Legion Unit Costs (Azgalor costs no food)

Wave 11 - Both Azgalor and Rage Winterchill.

Wave 9, second loop iteration

Anetheron on Wave 10 (second iteration)

Wave 11 (second iteration) Azgalor + Rage Winterchill

How am i able to have 2 demon bases sending waves if the food cap even works. Unless the bases have independant caps?

Ive never experience . An issue getting azgal9r back to back on his 2 of the 3 ending repeat waves. Unless he ventured into my base and i lost him

Laslty if rage is blocked from spawning.... why does the altar sound go off twice on the double wave?

It sounds plausible but im not convinced its the food cap

The bonus l9ve meat wagons is amazing though i never knew they would spawn more for towers

The pictures. What did you do to get rage and azgalor to spawn for their wave in reforged?

 

[Tamplier]

Hi All!
I tried to make Dalaran better looking and fix some ugly issues.
Please review and tell what needs to be improved:

Undead07Fixed

 

[deepstrasz]

Hi All!
I tried to make Dalaran better looking and fix some ugly issues.
Please review and tell what needs to be improved:

Please don't spam the Maps forum with stuff like this, guys.
Use pastebin instead.

 

[Daffa]

How am i able to have 2 demon bases sending waves if the food cap even works. Unless the bases have independant caps?

Ive never experience . An issue getting azgal9r back to back on his 2 of the 3 ending repeat waves. Unless he ventured into my base and i lost him

Laslty if rage is blocked from spawning.... why does the altar sound go off twice on the double wave?

It sounds plausible but im not convinced its the food cap

The bonus l9ve meat wagons is amazing though i never knew they would spawn more for towers

The pictures. What did you do to get rage and azgalor to spawn for their wave in reforged?

They are different bases. You can see ownership being reset in the map scripts with each base. There are three players reflecting each base, and a fourth for Archimonde.

Now, how come they have same color? Simple color change code.

 

[Anaxie]

They are different bases. You can see ownership being reset in the map scripts with each base. There are three players reflecting each base, and a fourth for Archimonde.

Now, how come they have same color? Simple color change code.

We still have the double altar sound but single revive question however

Whats sad to me is i played many RoC versions

Ive played RoC rnhanced by terry mcdonald which significantly ups difficulty of campaigns and adds difficult boss fights for all major characters in 1v1. You even fight mannoroth and archimonde + all 3 heros for 2 examples.

And ive played one linked on reddit that uses 1.31.1 balance for campaign.

All of them played flawlessly the worst version and buggiest is sadly and not surprisingly the one thats been touched by the classic team and bugged for orriginal game. And their reforged child campaign

I just want cuatom campaigns so i can throw their campaign map changes and downgrade maps in the trash and use the new graphics over Terrys enhanced campaigns and get a real addition to the game aka boss fights and far more aggressive AI

Edit: Both of those versions use TFT balance.

 

[Domcho]

We still have the double altar sound but single revive question however

What @Daffa said is true, each base is a new player with color change. For the double revival sound - I am pretty sure that's a sound bug in Reforged. I experienced it as well.

As for your question about getting Azgalor and Rage Winterchill to both show up together - remove the food cost for the Fel Stalker, Doom Guard and Infernal, all located in the Neutral Hostile folder, and also under custom units there is an extra Infernal unit called Infernal(AI Buildable Version), remove the food cost for that one too. The AI should no longer be getting supply blocked and should behave the way it did in RoC.

I also fixed RoC Human 05: March of the Scourge, the AI now sends the correct units in their assault groups, including the Liches. - RoC Chapter 5: March of the Scourge fixed

 

[Anaxie]

What @Daffa said is true, each base is a new player with color change. For the double revival sound - I am pretty sure that's a sound bug in Reforged. I experienced it as well.

As for your question about getting Azgalor and Rage Winterchill to both show up together - remove the food cost for the Fel Stalker, Doom Guard and Infernal, all located in the Neutral Hostile folder, and also under custom units there is an extra Infernal unit called Infernal(AI Buildable Version), remove the food cost for that one too. The AI should no longer be getting supply blocked and should behave the way it did in RoC.

I also fixed RoC Human 05: March of the Scourge, the AI now sends the correct units in their assault groups, including the Liches. - RoC Chapter 5: March of the Scourge fixed

is there a way to fix the actual campaign? how would i do this

 

[Domcho]

is there a way to fix the actual campaign? how would i do this

If by actual campaign you mean the missions that are loaded when you select them from the campaign menu inside the game, then I don't think so. I doubt we have access to those specific files, but you can load each Reforged map inside the World Editor by going to File -> Open Map -> click the Blizzard Campaign tab and from there you can select individual campaign maps either for Classic or Reforged, but I doubt editing and saving the map will let you launch it from the campaign menu. I think that campaign map file is stored somewhere inside the game. To test the map on Hard difficulty, make sure you go to File -> Preferences -> Test Map -> Difficulty Level and set the difficulty to Hard. This only works if you're testing the map from the Editor. If you put it inside your map folders and launch it from withing the game, the difficulty is set to Normal by default.

 

[Standhaft]

Are you sure? The files seem to be readily available. I was able to find and open them without having to do any MPQ stuff.

Also, I (accidentally) altered the real campaign once when I was still learning how to rip campaign maps back in classic warcraft so I am pretty sure it was always possible and probably easier now because of how badly Reforged has been made.

 

[deepstrasz]

I presume once you edit the campaign maps accessed via the World Editor's browse/open subprogram, the actual campaign maps are being modified. You can test by saving a game on a certain campaign map, then editing it in the editor and saving it, then trying to load that save game.

 

[Domcho]

Are you sure? The files seem to be readily available. I was able to find and open them without having to do any MPQ stuff.

Also, I (accidentally) altered the real campaign once when I was still learning how to rip campaign maps back in classic warcraft so I am pretty sure it was always possible and probably easier now because of how badly Reforged has been made.

Well I am not sure actually . I mean, I would expect Blizzard to lock / encrypt the specific files that are loaded through the campaign menu. I thought the ones you can access through the editor were just copies made exactly for public access and testing. But with all the crap that's going on with Reforged right now, I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually edit the real files yourself and break the campaign...

Anyway, here's March of the Scourged fixed. There's just 1 small problem - during the cinematics or mid-game transmissions called from triggers, the lips of the units do not move when they say their dialogue lines. No idea why this is, since Reforged is using an entirely new system for dialogues. Does anyone know how this new system works? Where is the string table for the English locale? All other locales are under the import tab, but not the English? Is it built inside the game files?

My gameplay: Reforged, Human Chapter 5 - March of the Scourge (Hard difficulty - fixed)

 

[Anaxie]

if you save from the editor when selecting the campaign file it just throws a map in your Downloads folder

Downloads since i presume Bnet and the world editor are. sigh.... online apps

 

[HerrDave]

online apps

HNNG!

 

[Ardenaso]

So... the models removed in game were High Elf Emissary, Furion, Malfurion Mountless, Tyrande Mountless, Mat'hog, Succubus, Vile Temptress, and Queen of Suffering

Also,

I'm not sure if I should make another separate post for this, but I'm lazy right now

 

[Venombite]

High Elf Emissary, Mat'hog

Really? I think that they do acctually apprear.

Weird thing for me is that the Blood Elven Swordman and Maiev's Avatar of Vengence are there, but are unused in Campaigns.

With all the models missing, it litterally looks like many people here speculated. LemonSky made models they were originally contracted with, and suddenly the Blizzard management cut all the funding of the project, leaving it with basically zero budget left, which automatically canceled the contract with LemonSky and Blizzard released the game with what models they had.

The proof of this, at least to me, is Tharifas having a unique model. I mean c'mon! He only appears in one cutscene, for a brief moment, where he's not even supposed to appear. The dragon in that cutscene is supposed to be red. I mean seriousely, I begin to doubt that the Devs even have a clue about Warcraft lore.

EDIT: And why are the Ogres in TfT Campaign using Draenei huts? That makes no sense. It's like the devs already had those buildings and thought something like, ohhh shiny, it could be used for the Ogre Chieftain. I get it that they are from the same world, kinda, but that makes them just as simmilar as idk let's say, Japan and Mozambique, or Indonesia and France. Though I'm beguining to have my doubts weather the devs even know that the Draenei and the Ogres are from the same world.

 

[Jarrin Derrick]

Blizzard should just give us the old game back. Its that bad.

 

[Ardenaso]

Really? I think that they do acctually apprear.

Weird thing for me is that the Blood Elven Swordman and Maiev's Avatar of Vengence are there, but are unused in Campaigns.

With all the models missing, it litterally looks like many people here speculated. LemonSky made models they were originally contracted with, and suddenly the Blizzard management cut all the funding of the project, leaving it with basically zero budget left, which automatically canceled the contract with LemonSky and Blizzard released the game with what models they had.

The proof of this, at least to me, is Tharifas having a unique model. I mean c'mon! He only appears in one cutscene, for a brief moment, where he's not even supposed to appear. The dragon in that cutscene is supposed to be red. I mean seriousely, I begin to doubt that the Devs even have a clue about Warcraft lore.

EDIT: And why are the Ogres in TfT Campaign using Draenei huts? That makes no sense. It's like the devs already had those buildings and thought something like, ohhh shiny, it could be used for the Ogre Chieftain. I get it that they are from the same world, kinda, but that makes them just as simmilar as idk let's say, Japan and Mozambique, or Indonesia and France. Though I'm beguining to have my doubts weather the devs even know that the Draenei and the Ogres are from the same world.

There's 2 Mat'hog Non-Fel Orc models and 1 unused Fel Orc model

In one of the patches before release they made the models same but they still have different animations

Here's the High Elf Emissary that I didn't see in game:

Yep this is like my biggest gripe.

We have models for Tharifas, Snarlmane, Gnoll Warlod, Moss Covered Granite Golem, Guardian Golem, Defender Golem, Blood Wizard, and even unused units like Gargoyle Spire, Night Elf Fishing Boat, etc.

But no model for Khadgar, Lothar, Anetheron, Mephistroth, Conjuros Rex, Ballador the Bright, Duke Lionheart, Fordred Aran, Landazar, Califax, Draenei Boulder Tower, Black Temple Death Tower, Neeloc Greedyfingers, Khanzo, Genjuros, Haomarush, Thok'feroth, Jubei'thos, Royal Guard, Sen'jin, Zar'jira, Blood Elf Archer, and Lordaeron Emissary

And I just had to realize that this "orcwarlordred" is supposed to be... Ner'zhul

There's also this "legacy model" of Illidan Cage that somehow didn't make it live too

 

[Anaxie]

Crispy Reforged - Warcraft 3 Reforged

Reshade just fixed the ugly neon terrain

 

[deepstrasz]

Reshade just fixed the ugly neon terrain

Don't like any of them. The brightened one makes it look like it's painted while the contrasted option kills lots of colours, shapes and whatnot.

 

[Venombite]

There's 2 Mat'hog Non-Fel Orc models and 1 unused Fel Orc model

In one of the patches before release they made the models same but they still have different animations

Here's the High Elf Emissary that I didn't see in game:

Yep this is like my biggest gripe.

We have models for Tharifas, Snarlmane, Gnoll Warlod, Moss Covered Granite Golem, Guardian Golem, Defender Golem, Blood Wizard, and even unused units like Gargoyle Spire, Night Elf Fishing Boat, etc.

But no model for Khadgar, Lothar, Anetheron, Mephistroth, Conjuros Rex, Ballador the Bright, Duke Lionheart, Fordred Aran, Landazar, Califax, Draenei Boulder Tower, Black Temple Death Tower, Neeloc Greedyfingers, Khanzo, Genjuros, Haomarush, Thok'feroth, Jubei'thos, Royal Guard, Sen'jin, Zar'jira, Blood Elf Archer, and Lordaeron Emissary

And I just had to realize that this "orcwarlordred" is supposed to be... Ner'zhul

There's also this "legacy model" of Illidan Cage that somehow didn't make it live too

High Elf emessary appears in both the editor and at the begining of Undead RoC campaign chapter 3.

I noticed two Fel Orc models and one non Fel Orc. At the end of RoC Human Chapter 1 fel orc slave master in Classic was an inconsistency, he's supposed to be green, so I'm actually glad they changed him to green.

 

[Ardenaso]

from Warcraft Scourgeposting

you could justify and rationalize the crystals and the illustrious design, but there's the Draenei and the Aldor insignia; the design is even out of place with the background terrain

 

[HerrDave]

I think the designers took way more influence from WoW than from-- the actual thing they were recreating.

I imagine they waltzed into Alternate Draenor and were like "Yup, that's Ogre stuff, make it smaller, grittier, and ship it."

 

[Domcho]

you could justify and rationalize the crystals and the illustrious design, but there's the Draenei and the Aldor insignia; the design is even out of place with the background terrain

I haven't started the Rexxar campaign yet, and now I don't think I even want to... I can't believe they are too lazy to make proper Ogre buildings.

 

[Ardenaso]

At the end of RoC Human Chapter 1 fel orc slave master in Classic was an inconsistency, he's supposed to be green, so I'm actually glad they changed him to green.

I actually liked him red, it shows that he was one of the big guys in the Blackrock Clan like Jubei'thos

I haven't started the Rexxar campaign yet, and now I don't think I even want to... I can't believe they are too lazy to make proper Ogre buildings.

they made lots of other stuff, but none for Ogre huts; their priorities are really off

 

[Razorclaw_X]

Well you have to remember there were no Ogre buildings to begin with; they used Draenei buildings, which is why they are still Draenei buildings now.


On a related note I finally decided to unpack one of my campaign files into the local files for the 1.32 patch and it really opened up just how broken the Custom Campaign module was (the fact is Reforged outright ignores anything you did in it), which is really weird because it wasn't THAT broken during the beta.

 

[Ardenaso]

Well you have to remember there were no Ogre buildings to begin with; they used Draenei buildings, which is why they are still Draenei buildings now.

that's not it; if they can make 435234534254352 models for Paladins and Dreadlords, they should've been able to make these as well

 

[Venombite]

I haven't started the Rexxar campaign yet, and now I don't think I even want to... I can't believe they are too lazy to make proper Ogre buildings.

that's not it; if they can make 435234534254352 models for Paladins and Dreadlords, they should've been able to make these as well

I wouldn't mind if they just used the normal Ogre huts, the ones that the other Ogres in the village have, just maybe a bit bigger. They aren't that important. I'm simply bothered by the fact that they use Draenei buildings. I mean they look 100% like they were taken straight out of Telaar, and besides the obviouseness of their Draenei looks, they're even named Draenei huts in the editor. It's like the devs saw these buildings and thought, why not use them for something, like shiny Ogre Chieftain. I mean they don't even look like huts 100%, they originally probably had other purposes, farm, lumbermill, shop, their look supports my theory that the Draenei were originally planed to have a playable chapter in TfT Blood Elf Campaign, before Reforged/Redone Campaigns got scrapped. And the devs probably thought, since we have them let's use it for something.

Well you have to remember there were no Ogre buildings to begin with; they used Draenei buildings, which is why they are still Draenei buildings now.

Well that depends on how you look at it. Yes in Warcraft 3 Classic they had no buildings, they used the gnoll ones. (but still they didn't use the Draenei mushrooms ) But in Warcraft 2, they had they're own building within the Horde. And if you take WoW into account they had a large empire with massive cities long before the Draenei even came to Draenor.

Spoiler