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Nerubian Race Ideas & Design

Discussion in 'Idea Factory' started by SgtWinter, Mar 23, 2019.

  1. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Dunno, maybe have each drone give a certain amount of evasion/spell block, and the amount goes down/cooldown increases every time it triggers, killing a drone?


    Didn't have time to play all the map, but the spiderlings should not be sacrificed for every single building (only production ones).
     
  2. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    I don't really know what to say about the Queen slash Drone ideas. Neat idea but I feel like coding that would be way too much of a hassle.

    Also, about the workers. You really think that Workers shouldn't be sacrificed? They cost 50 gold and can be mass-produced from the main structure. I think it's reasonable.
     
  3. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Wisps aren't sacrificed for every building, it makes lining up multiple buildings less of a hassle. Also, why do Spiderlings only gather 8 wood at a time?

    Cocoons should have a rally point so units can be made to follow another (and workers gather).
    Main building should use a mercenary system so you know how many cocoons are available. And maybe a Spawn Larva analog.
    Colonies very much need a regular attack, the broodlings should be triggered by melee attacks.
    Chancellor's Learn Frost Bolt icon is a green square.
    Summon Faceless One still mentions the Archmage.
    Why is the Guardian slow?
    Needs a better healing spell.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  4. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Workers only get 8 lumber because I usually find that I've been stockpiling way too much lumber with this race for some reason. You're supposed to be making more workers to replace the sacrificed units. It's cheap and not really a problem once you get used to it. It's necessary to have backup workers with this race, and you can either dispose of them for gold or get them on woodchopping duty until they're needed again. Also, you can make Workers from the Spawning Pit if your main structure is busy upgrading.

    Cocoons indeed should have a rallypoint. I've recently finished adding that. I've also updated the main hall to show the number of Cocoons it currently has. You can also cancel currently morphing Cocoons with ESC now.

    I've decided to make the Colonies Hatchling passive an active ability. Once you reach Tier 2, you're able to use the ability to send 2 Hatchlings towards a target point. Each Hatchling lasts 10 seconds and are painfully slow, so it's usually better to just use them as defenses. It also solves the problem where the race lacks a defensive structure. Making Hatchlings cost mana too, and the Colonies regen mana a lot slower.

    Yes, I noticed the Chancellor's Frost Bolt icon and the Summon Faceless One's tooltip. I've fixed those already. I'll fix the Guardian's movement speed too. Most of the Heroes have temporary abilities and I'll probably be replacing them with more unique ones. (Although the Ancient One's abilities seem kind of fine to me.)

    I might remove the damage effect on the Widow's Transfusion to make it much more effective, except with a longer cooldown. I might do an AoE heal but I always thought instant AoE heals were a little bit too effective. Maybe use something like the Obsidian Statue's AoE heal for that? I dunno. I'll try working on it more.

    Any other suggestions to improve the race? I'll post another version soon.
     
  5. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Slower lumber makes the early game harder though. Maybe have lumber be affected by upkeep instead.

    Unit upgrades should be done at the hatchery and not the reliquary.

    Given the lack of healing, Burrow should provide regeneration.

    Needs a better melee unit than the Reaver.
     
  6. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Lumber being affected by upkeep is based on the Gameplay Constants. Doing so will change all the other races. Are you having problems with lumber? Six workers on wood is all you really need. As in matter of fact, they get wood a bit faster than the normal races since they only have to hit the tree 8 times instead of the usual 10. Plus they move faster than the normal workers and can reach their mill much faster.

    The Spawning Pit's production system glitches when putting the upgrades there. I'll relocate the upgrades back to that when I fix it someday.

    I guess increasing the hp regen of Burrow would actually be useful. Gives a reason to use it other than as a pseudo-Sentry Ward.

    A better melee unit than the Reaver? I don't think the race needs another melee unit when I could probably just improve the standards units I already have. I prefer to avoid situations where unit A is statistically better than unit B like how a Knight is just overall better than an upgraded Footman. Although I'd be happy to hear any alternatives you have.
     
  7. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Way I see it, the Nerubians don't have a fast melee unit like the others (Knight, Abomination, Raider, Huntress) and the Reaver is more a Siege Engine that can attack units.


    Selecting a Random Hero before playing gives a random undead hero.
     
  8. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Abominations are fast? Wait what?

    I could probably increase the movement speed of the Glacial Reaver. If you're talking about a high mobile melee unit then I don't think it's necessary. The upgrade that causes Arachnids to move faster and give them poison damage can turn them into a pretty speedy attacker. The Glacial Reaver is definitely supposed to be more of a siege engine unit but also viable against normal units.

    The Random Hero thing? Geez, didn't know there were some people who use those. That's really minor, but I should probably replace Undead heroes as well on startup I guess.

    Anything else?
     
  9. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    They were at one point, but I always use them with Unholy Aura so I didn't notice the change.

    As for siege engines, I think their main mechanic was that they were hard to kill in exchange for relatively low building damage while the rest of the attackers were engaging the army (ever see a battering ram rush in an Empire Earth game?), so a siege attack isn't that great against units if it doesn't deal high damage and splash.

    I'll see if I can think up some more if I ever manage to actually win against the AI.
     
  10. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Is winning against the AI hard with this race? I've personally won multiple matches on Insane. I assume it's because I know the cheesy tactics the Nerubians can employ since I made them. Perhaps I'll buff the Nerubians. The only question is HOW exactly I can do that without making them too strong.
     
  11. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Philosophers have been asking the same question for ages.

    It might be the unfamilarity, but I think the relative lack of creeps on the map is a factor: by the time the they're all used up, the AI is already substantially higher on the techtree.
     
  12. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    I suppose I can change the map, but importing the race again will be a huge hassle. I'll try to though.

    Can you send a replay of your gameplay? I want to see how another person plays this race. I've also updated the race a bit. Added the Wraith hero too, but it's lacking a second skill so I used Ensnare as a placeholder.
     
  13. Pyrogasm

    Pyrogasm

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    There is an "import/export all object data" function in the world editor (and you can copy an entire folder of triggers at once); might make that easier.
     
  14. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Managed to win (by waiting for their first attack in my base so my reinforcements would come faster, and after that attacking them before they could build up)... except I didn't, there seems to be a bug where killing all enemy units and buildings doesn't trigger victory.
    Multiple chancellors can be trained.
    Viziers had Forced Evolution before Master Training.
    There should be 5 Spiderlings at the start of the game.
    Researched Web, but none of my Webspinners could use it (trained before and after the research).
     
  15. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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    Hi, SgtWinter. I am really pleasantly surprised with your Nerubian race. I really like what I am seeing here, and also, great job to the guys who gave you all of the ideas. I have played your race, and here are my thoughts/suggestions:

    * Buildings
    - I would change name of the tier 1 main building from Haven to Hive or something like that. I mean, while it works, I think there are plenty other names that are more fitting for the Nerubian race.
    -Also Altar of Wrath. That name would be fitting for some brute race, like, let's say Fel Orcs, while for the Nerubians I would rather go with Altar of Cunning or Altar of Brood, or something more "insectoid".

    *Units
    - First, I want to suggest you to remove "Regenerative Skin" upgrade completely and instead replace it with a "Burrow" as a "race ability". It is more fitting thematically and Jungle Trolls already have increased regeneration as their "race ability".
    - Arachnid - For this unit I have the most amount of changes, so hear me out. First, I would completely change it's model, from that scorpion to this Crypt Mother. I am sure that we all know that Arachnids are not part of the Nerubian race (I am not sure if they are even canon any more, to be honest) and Nerubians are using in WoW some spider-like units, and I think this one fits perfectly there. I would change it's name into Skitterer. Don't forget about my suggestion about "Burrow" being available to all ground Nerubian units (except Glacial Reaver, because he has a stronger and more fitting one already). AND, in the end, I would actually make it so that from one egg you are getting TWO Skitterers. Of course, you need to reduce their stats. With this, you are getting that swarm feeling and playstyle which is perfect for the Nerubians. Also, I would reduce collision size of that model, so majority of them can attack at the same time one enemy. "Poison Sting" would stay, while I would give "Resilient Carapace" to Horror instead.
    - Webspinner - I would swap "Web" (no need to copy Crypt Fiend here, and it doesn't even work at the moment) with a new ability called "Web Spin". Upgradeable passive ability that gives Webspinner with every attack 20% chance to reduce armor by 2.5 and attack damage by 10% for 30 sec.
    - Stinger - "Cling" is mentioning Weaver instead of Stinger.
    - Horror - I would just change icon of the "Acidic Corrosion" into this one BTNPlagueNova, because current icon is being used by Chimera.
    - Glacial Reaver - You need to increase cost of this unit. He has stats similar to the Mountain Giant, while costing 200 gold less. Also, I would change name of it. It is not really needed, but when I read Glacial Reaver, I thought about some kind of ice construct. It is a bit of misleading. My suggestions are Spiderlord or Underlord. Also, because his "Burrow" is different, I would rename it into "Harden Carapace" and use this icon instead BTNBurrow.
    - Obsidian Disruptor - While I do like idea of this unit, fr theme standpoint it is unfitting. While Scourge did adopted architecture of the Nerubians, they were never that advanced to have flying buildings. Just imagine bunch of spiders controlling flying ziggurat. I would change it's model into CryptGuard. Make it big. Keep "Disruptor Attack". Rename it into "Acid Shower" and use this icon BTNAcidShower. Keep "Poison Mist". And I would replace "Dark Summoning" with "Swarm" passive upgrade. When killed, split into two Venomspitters using this model Nerubian Flyer. They have really low, fast hitting attack (like 5-10) and a passive ability called "Acid Blood" where they deal 200 damage to all nearby flying units when killed. I would use this icon BTNAcidRain. I would rename this unit into Devourer.

    Also, you needed an idea for 1 more unit. I got 2 new units.

    - Ambusher - Agile Nerubian adept at disrupting enemy lines. Has Parasitic Bomb. Can learn Abduct and Burrow.
    "Parasitic Bomb" - Afflicts a target enemy unit with a deadly parasite that deals 5 damage per second for 30 seconds. If the afflicted unit dies while under the effect of Parasitic Bomb, a Spiderling will spawn from its corpse.
    "Abduct" - Pulls a target unit to the location of the Ambusher.
    MODEL: Nerubian Arbalest
    ICON for Parasitic Bomb would be Naga Siren's Parasite, while for Abduct, I would use this: BTNGlutton'sGreed.

    - Ravager - Defensive Nerubian adept at defending and harassing enemies. Has Tunnel and Seismic Spines. Can learn Chitinous Plating.
    "Tunnel" - Permanent invisibility.
    "Seismic Spines - Slams the ground, shooting spiked tendrils out in a straight line, dealing damage and hurling enemy ground units into the air in their wake. (Pretty much Impale, but without mana cost, lesser stun time and damage).
    "Chitinous Plating" - Return 100% of the damage taken to melee attacker.
    MODEL: HeroCryptLord (Underground, spiked form).
    ICONS: Tunnel - BTNRift; Seismic Spines - BTNImpale; Chitinous Plating - BTNCR_Spiked_Armor

    This unit has no attack, and I would suggest to have minimum movement speed. 100, if I am not mistaken? It would be built from main building, and would require tier 3 to be built. Only reason for this unit is base defense. Because, right now, Hatchlings and Reliquary are not enough. You just use Ravagers to stun the enemies so Hatchling can finish them off. It has nice synergy and strategy included.

    *Items
    You need 2 more items in your item shop. Also, Orb of Frost needs to be nerfed. Every other orb deals 5 damage and slow should be a bit reduced.
    Nerubian Ward (1 charge) - Place a Nerubian Ward that gives 10% movement and attack speed to all nearby allied units. Lasts for 30 sec.
    Has 200 health and 10-10 Frost Attack. Model: webward
    Nerubian Armor (1 charge) - Gain 10 armor for 60 sec. Icon: BTNNerubianSmasher

    *Heroes
    I would completely re-do all of your heroes. Here are my suggestions:

    Guardian -> Guardian of the Deeps (In your face, tanky hero. Best in the middle of the fray. You charge in with your Q, wreck havoc, use Overwhelm to stay alive, Crushers are helping you with your every spellcast, and Adaptation is there to improve your tankines while at low health).
    Q - Burrowstrike - Burrow into the ground and tunnel forward, damaging and stunning enemy units above as Guardian of the Deeps resurfaces. (Sand King's Q from DOTA 2).
    W - Overwhelm (Now it also damages friendly units).
    E - Host - Using an ability spawns a Crusher to attack nearby enemies. (He has no timer) MODEL: LobstrokkGreen.blp
    R - Adaptation

    MODEL: Nerubian Guard I would use this model, because it is of a higher quality then the current one, and it fits Nerubians more.
    ICONS:
    Q - BTNImpale
    E - BTNBeatle
    R - Monstrous Armor


    Wraith -> Hive Assassin (Hero specialized into burning down single target. While in fight, you go into Vendetta, approach their squishy hero, hit him, cast Cocoon to keep him in place, and then burst him down with your Killing Frenzy, and Spellbane is there to protect your from stuns).
    Q - Killing Frenzy - Gain X% bonus attack speed, burn X mana with every attack, but take X% more damage over duration. Lasts for 10 sec.
    W - Cocoon - Wrap target enemy into a cocoon, dealing X damage and rooting it for X sec. (Ensnare with damage added to it. Just use Web instead of a net.)
    E - Spellbane
    R - Vendetta -
    Go invisible, gain X% bonus movement speed and deal X backstab damage. (Wind Walk with huge damage from invisibility)

    MODEL: Blood Beetle I would also use this model, instead of the current one. That derpy face... :grin:
    ICONS:
    Q - BTNSilithidDevourer
    W - BTNWeb2Spiderless
    R - BTNcrBurowSTRIKE


    Ancient One -> Broodlord (Summoning hero. Infector is your main source of damage. With just two, on squishy targets, you can destroy whole armies. Shadow Pulse is there to keep them alive, aura reduces their armor, while your ulty is just good team fight ultimate).
    Q - Summon Infector - Summon an Infector with "Parasitic Claws" (from level 2) to fight your enemies for 30 sec. Parasitic Claws - If target dies in 2 seconds after being hit by an Infector summon Spiderling for 10 sec. MODEL: Nerubian Infector
    W - Shadow Pulse
    E - Terror Aura -
    Reduce armor of all nearby enemy units by X.
    R - Hivemind - Summon a huge egg that spawns 2 Spiderlings every few seconds. Lasts for 60 sec. MODEL: EggSack1

    MODEL: Crypt Warlock
    ICONS:
    Q - BTNNerubPunch
    E - BTNCRcleric
    R - BTNNerubEgg
    Parasitic Claws - BTNNerubSlash


    Chancellor -> Prophet (Your typical caster. A bit more on supportive side. Q should have pretty low cooldown on level 3. His ulty is broken on nearly dead Glacial Reaver).
    Q - Finger of Death - Deal X damage to target enemy unit, reduce armor by X and silence it for X seconds.
    W - Frost Surge
    E - Meditation -
    Passively increase mana regeneration by X.
    R - Chosen One - Heal target non-hero friendly unit to full health.

    MODEL: Nerubian Elder
    ICONS:
    Q - Finger of Death
    W - Just swap it with one you have on the Frost Bolt right now
    E - BTNPD3WizMeditation
    R - BTNDeathHand


    Good luck with your project! Keep it up! :smile:
     
  16. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Kay, I'm back. Thanks for reporting those bugs, cleavers. I've fixed them but I've yet to upload a new map.

    MogulKahn, where were you when I needed you earlier!?

    Those suggestions really solved most of my problems, and the hero ideas are actually extremely good! Also, glad you suggested item ideas. For some reason, I could never figure out what to do with the items. The Arachnids probably won't change though, as I wanted them to be durable and usable from start to finish. Though I''ll probably change their model and name. Skitterer sounds nice enough, though it sounds more like it'll tickle someone to death than anything. Agreeing on the collision size though, will change that.

    Will update and post a new version someday with some of those changes. My wifi is currently down so I don't really have a chance to update the map just yet.

    No spellcaster suggestions though? I'm sort of satisfied with the Widow, but the Vizier's last ability seems to be lacking (since it was originally going to give a unit an ability instead of straight up damage.) so any ideas for the Vizier would be welcome.

    Again, thanks for suggestions!

    The whole race was supposed to have Burrow, but most Nerubian units don't have the burrow animation like the Widow for example.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  17. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Regarding Burrow: The Reaver's should have him do something else, better armor is no substitute for not being attacked in the first place.
    For those units that don't have the animation, maybe substitute one (e.g., the Widow barfs up a pile of webs as she burrows and unburrows to hide the fact that she pops from one state to another).

    I think the original version of Evolve is a good idea (if only for the creativity) for the Vizier.

    Also, maybe have the Widow's Hatchery heal the unit but apply to enemies as well, and the spiderlings are stronger when hatched from stronger enemies (e.g. xenomorphs).
     
  18. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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    Also, I kind of liked spells of your casters. And yes, I agree with cleavinghammer about "Evolve" idea. It is the most unique. Also, Burrow idea from cleaving is good, in my opinion.

    About that Reaver's Burrow comment, I must disagree. It is good, because you are getting fortified armor, you are a lot more tanky, while that aura is crippling enemy forces. Only, maybe add like 30% melee damage return.
     
  19. Tuwnew

    Tuwnew

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    I was just reading and all...

    You suggested a Nerubian Ward to increase movement speed. But why not the opposite?
    It's a WEB ward (the model at last). So you know, Web are made to capture and stuck minors insects. It would be more fitting to make a Slow Aura instead of a Endurance Aura. No?
     
  20. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Alright, I've completely overhauled the heroes and I think they're a lot better now (Aside from the Ancient One because I quite enjoy him as is). However, I've hit a couple of roadblocks.

    1.) Revamping Evolution. The original problem with Evolution was that it was difficult to come up with abilities that made an impact for each individual Nerubian unit as most of the abilities that come to mind work better as upgrades. Any help for this?
    2.) Burrowing for most units. Like I said, most units don't have a Burrow animation, and regardless of how many special effects you put in a trigger, you'll still notice the Nerubian unit popping in and out of existence. Help with this would be appreciated.
    3.) Brood Host revamp. They're useful, Fleshmite Swarm helps with DPS and Blinding Fog forces the enemy to reposition, but I feel like they're lacking in some areas. I'm thinking about changing them up to have a different use. Perhaps give them the Colony's Spew Hatchling ability to make them more of a backline supporter? Or perhaps I should give them more abilities? Fleshmite Swarm and Blinding Fog is kinda underwhelming right now.

    Aside from that, the race is looking good right now.

    Screenshot_5.png