Maps - Credits

[IcemanBo]

Hello,

There are often author names, listed at a map thread, without any note what they are credited for. (which is fine with rules)
But for me, such pure author list is mostly useless when I look at it. I want to know who, but also what for, credits are given.

 

[Chaosy]

Sounds like a pain in the ass.

Doesn't the automatic import detector do this anyway? for most stuff

 

[IcemanBo]

The imports script alone does not suffice for generating a credit list: Content Moderation and it's impact on the creator's ideas.
Furthermore, also stuff that is not listed in the ImportManager can be credited, like code systems, terraining, idk.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Don't we only need to credit Blizzard nowadays?

 

[General Frank]

Don't we only need to credit Blizzard nowadays?

No.
Blizzard is not this community.
People that contribute resources and things to it are.
It is also common courtesy to credits a resource or idea you have used.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

No.
Blizzard is not this community.
People that contribute resources and things to it are.
It is also common courtesy to credits a resource or idea you have used.

Agreed =) though sometimes there are difficulties with credits.

 

[General Frank]

Agreed =) though sometimes there are difficulties with credits.

Care to elaborate on that?

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Care to elaborate on that?

Only wanted to point it out but I guess I can a little, deleted resources, in map only resources, too many resources used, and same/similar idea's.

 

[Chaosy]

How far does the rabbit hole go?
If I should thank IconMaster 1337 for using one icon, surely I should also credit Microsoft for making windows which I am using while making the map.
Should I also credit Ralle for making the hive which hosts the resources?
Should I credit everyone that offers help with scripts in the trigger section?
Should I credit model editing programs if I choose to modify existing models.
If I am using WEX/WEU/HiveWE should I credit them?

Because I think that some of these aspects affect my map WAY more than a few individual resources do.

For me, a proper credit list takes way too much research to put together. Unless you are writing things down from the very start of development.
This is also annoying because you might import things that does not end up in the final product so you need to go through your gigantic list to double check everything anyway.

If you want to enforce proper crediting, fine. But you should be very specific in what should and shouldn't be credited.

 

[General Frank]

For me, a proper credit list takes way too much research to put together. Unless you are writing things down from the very start of development.

You answered your question there quite well.

 

[deepstrasz]

While it's honourable to make a proper list, enforcing people to write the specifics like name-model/link is a bit too much when most don't do their list while developing their maps. We're lucky if they even do a list afterwards from the View in Use Resources link. I've been criticized numerous times for demanding such a detailed credits list before I went to actually reviewing those maps.

Keeping it minimal would be ideal.
Example:

Models:

• Johnny
• Billy
• Dave

Icons:

• Salammy
• Bamboocha
• Whatshisface

Coding:

• Namephilia

Music/Sounds:

• BravoNoMore Entertainment
• Wolf van Bear

 

[General Frank]

While it's honourable to make a proper list, enforcing people to write the specifics like name-model/link is a bit too much when most don't do their list while developing their maps. We're lucky if they even do a list afterwards from the View in Use Resources link. I've been criticized numerous times for demanding such a detailed credits list before I went to actually reviewing those maps.

Keeping it minimal would be ideal.
Example:

Models:

• Johnny
• Billy
• Dave

Icons:

• Salammy
• Bamboocha
• Whatshisface

Coding:

• Namephilia

Music/Sounds:

• BravoNoMore Entertainment
• Wolf van Bear

That sounds very reasonable.

 

[Shar Dundred]

While it's honourable to make a proper list, enforcing people to write the specifics like name-model/link is a bit too much when most don't do their list while developing their maps. We're lucky if they even do a list afterwards from the View in Use Resources link. I've been criticized numerous times for demanding such a detailed credits list before I went to actually reviewing those maps.

Keeping it minimal would be ideal.
Example:

Models:

• Johnny
• Billy
• Dave

Icons:

• Salammy
• Bamboocha
• Whatshisface

Coding:

• Namephilia

Music/Sounds:

• BravoNoMore Entertainment
• Wolf van Bear

^That.

 

[Ralle]

Some of you make it sound like using something you didn't make and writing it down takes more time than making the thing yourself.

Basically, for your map, anything you added to the map (from outside) that you did not create should be credited or attributed.

And I agree with IcemanBo. Credit lists are best if they actually reference the thing used next to the name.

 

[Chaosy]

Its more about not wanting to spend 2 days straight trying to lookup who made what.

 

[The_Silent]

If you don't want to credit, don't use custom resources.

People spend hours making those resources for free, crediting is the very least you can do.

If it is hard, it is only hard because YOU planned poorly.

Nobody is entitled to other peoples free work, and what we have here at the hive is almost unique. Don't be the guy, that steps on those people and their work because you couldn't be asked to make a list.

 

[Chaosy]

Admittedly I do not own the super-big code resources like Damage Engine but I could not care less if I was given credit for any of my help with code (which is a lot over the years as 75% of my posts are from the trigger and help section) or public resources.
You are welcome to double check any of my posts, I have never demanded credit.

I helped people out because I find it fun to code, not because I want to be on some pointless list.

 

[The_Silent]

You have the right to not want to be credited. But that has no effect on anybody else. It is not an ideological discussion, there is nothing wrong with either.

We credit people because they did us an service, and that is the very least we can do. If you don't want to be credited personally, that is cool.



The "I don't want to make a list because it is hard work" is just a shitty argument. Making that resource was also hard work. You can upload your map anonymously and de-protected, but that is your personal choice too.

 

[Chaosy]

If they want to credit me fine. But I would never go and cry about not being credited.

I do not feel any better from being credited, in fact most of the time I wont even know if I am in a map or not because no one reads the credits anyway, it's a pointless list unless you want to lookup a specific model and even then you do not really care about who made it, you just want it for yourself.

 

[The_Silent]

Cool, good for you I guess

Has no effect on anybody else though.



One day, hiveworkshop might be forced to have licenses on everything, like almost everywhere else, and it will only be the worse for it. Giving credits is literally nothing.

 

[General Frank]

The "I don't want to make a list because it is hard work" is just a shitty argument. Making that resource was also hard work. You can upload your map anonymously and de-protected, but that is your personal choice too.

Thank you for speaking out loud for many resource providers.

 

[Chaosy]

Think about it this way.

For every person that does not demand to be credited, I save a minute for every person that uses my stuff. (just a nice round number, how quickly it takes to look something up is different per person probably)
This adds up very quickly in total.
Why would we enforce thousands of people to waste time on something that "benefits" a small number of people.
Because the number of modders compared to the number of people creating public submission is like 1 to five.
Especially when the benefit is just an ego boost.

And you might say "Yeah but not everyone lack common decency like you, Chaosy."
To which I say, go look at the map section. I have seen many maps over the years where the moderator have had to force a credit list being made.

How about letting people who are nicer than me do a credit list, and rest dont.

edit: something something path of least resistance

 

[The_Silent]

If people don't even want to make a credit list for the map, reject the map. I don't get the issue at all.

Might even call it intellectual property theft. But I won't, because that is an area I'm not qualified to speak about. Just know that everyone who has ever released anything on this site, could go somewhere else and get paid for that same work. People are getting it for free, and are to entitled to even credit. Something that should take a couple of seconds per resource.

 

[Chaosy]

That's not an argument.
"It's the current rules, follow them lol"

Thought we were talking about updating them, although Icemanbo suggests updating it in the opposite direction I want to. But update nonetheless.

 

[The_Silent]

It is my property I've given away from free. Stop complaining and do the absolute minimum in acknowledging the service I've provided.



I could arguably not release most of it, without doing some alterations. But then again, I could do that.

 

[Chaosy]

So you're uploading your resources for your personal ego boost rather than how fun it was to make. Or if you are one of those few that just like to contribute to a community.

Forgive me if I forgot to shed a tear.

 

[The_Silent]

Stop being entitled to my work.


(Or anybody elses)

 

[Chaosy]

This is a hobby site, you might have forgotten.

 

[The_Silent]

That changes literally nothing. Legally, morally, or otherwise.


"Lets alienate content creators that do free work for us, because crediting is a hassle."

 

[Chaosy]

A hobby is meant to be for pure fun and interest.

If you created a model/texture as a freelancer, obviously credit makes sense. Along with payment.

But a hobby map is just to be a fun thing to make, why drag copyright issues into an otherwise fun process?

 

[The_Silent]

Because "hobby" is not a term that magically makes ownership, copyright or licensing go away. Just be happy you don't have to worry about it too much here I guess.

 

[Chaosy]

Non-commercial projects usually do not have to worry about copyright.

 

[The_Silent]

Sure they have, if they don't have a license to use the material they use. Game assets also has owners.

 

[General Frank]

Because "hobby" is not a term that magically makes ownership, copyright or licensing go away. Just be happy you don't have to worry about it too much here I guess.

I applaud your conviction and passion on this manner, but I doubt you can make someone change his/her mind that has not released something or made a map for the public in about 2 years.

 

[Chaosy]

Because credit was added last year, yeah?
Oh wait.
Also if you want to do low blows, where are your maps released this/last year? surely this means you are not qualified to speak on this subject
^ Sarcasm obviously

Sure they have, if they don't have a license to use the material they use. Game assets also has owners.

What I meant is. A lot of sources offer their product for free for non-commercial products.
Seen it on deviantart quite a few times for example.

 

[General Frank]

Because credit was added last year, yeah?What I meant is. A lot of sources offer their product for free for non-commercial products.
Seen it on deviantart quite a few times for example.

Just because it is free, it does not mean you can leave your morals and gratitude down at the door.
You would NOT say thanks to your friends for helping you for free, would you?

 

[Chaosy]

A more accurate metaphor would be having 100 friends help me out with different things over a year and then I would try to remember who did what and try to thank them at the end of the year.

It's not that I refuse to say thank you, it is that I do not find it reasonable to expect everyone to keep track of it.

If gratitude is all you want, then me leaving a nice comment on a resource as I download it should fill the same purpose.

edit: or rate it? I am unsure if you can do so without leaving a comment.

 

[General Frank]

A more accurate metaphor would be having 100 friends help me out with different things over a year and then I would try to remember who did what and try to thank them at the end of the year.

It's not that I refuse to say thank you, it is that I do not find it reasonable to expect everyone to keep track of it.

If gratitude is all you want, then me leaving a nice comment on a resource as I download it should fill the same purpose.

edit: or rate it? I am unsure if you can do so without leaving a comment.

I don't see this solution being too much of a hassle:
Maps - Credits

 

[loktar]

I don't really get the resistance to credits. Just put a reasonable amount of effort into mentioning everyone by name (and if you can, mention what they did and add a link to a download), and add some general thanks or something if you're not sure you remembered everyone.
What constitutes a reasonable amount of effort is for everyone to decide for themselves, but if you really think the submission rules are unreasonable in this regard, I guess you'll have to make an unreasonable effort.

 

[Ralle]

Its more about not wanting to spend 2 days straight trying to lookup who made what.

That's the wrong way of going by it. It's much more work to do it after the fact that while editing the map. If you keep a list of who and what, and always update it when you add something, it basically takes no time at all.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

If the resource creators care that much which should be respected and I do agree that credit is a must then shouldn't they be writing their names down on their resources somewhere instead of asking for a list nobody will read unless they want that resource for themselves or to ask the maker of that resource for something?

Edit: A list is still good though it'd be better if the resource creators name was on the file/s and in them as well.

 

[deepstrasz]

If the resource creators care that much which should be respected and I do agree that credit is a must then shouldn't they be writing their names down on their resources somewhere instead of asking for a list nobody will read unless they want that resource for themselves or to ask the maker of that resource for something?

Like a sort of signature? I'm not sure it'll work as it will probably not be seen. As for the filename containing the author's, that's also not viable when you edit stuff that's not yours.
I guess, the main proof, so to speak, is the author's resource thread here on the site or somewhere else.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Like a sort of signature? I'm not sure it'll work as it will probably not be seen. As for the filename containing the author's, that's also not viable when you edit stuff that's not yours.
I guess, the main proof, so to speak, is the author's resource thread here on the site or somewhere else.

A list doesn't work in the same way you commented as well so... However for ones who actually want to spend the time and effort with credits then it'll be very viable. As you mentioned, a signature of sorts could be added into basically any resource and function many times better then a list.

Edit: You mentioned only the filename, I meant the filename for mapmakers to easily credit and more such as in the texture itself, a comment somewhere in the triggers or dummy objects for spells/terrain and similar stuff, a name on an unused animation or in the node manager or maybe if possible in the .mdl itself with notepad for models.

 

[deepstrasz]

A list doesn't work in the same way you commented as well so... However for ones who actually want to spend the time and effort with credits then it'll be very viable. As you mentioned, a signature of sorts could be added into basically any resource and function many times better then a list.

I'm saying if this was that simple, it would have been done already. Hence, why a basic text list is more adequate.
Besides, the list is visible in the map thread or in the game if the mapper writes one there too while if the map is for instance protected there would be no way to see the files which includes who made them.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

I'm saying if this was that simple, it would have been done already. Hence, why a basic text list is more adequate.
Besides, the list is visible in the map thread or in the game if the mapper writes one there too while if the map is for instance protected there would be no way to see the files which includes who made them.

It is this simple and it should of been done already. A basic text list is not more adequate but it can still prove useful and shouldn't be forgotten, more steps which don't even take a minute for the resource maker... It's kind of funny when you want detailed credit lists.

The map thread might not always be around and not everyone will go to the same source for this, relying on anything in-map is a nice idea too but more can be done with minimal effort... No such thing as map protection in wc3 if wc3 can still read the map/file, only corruption which is easily restored nowadays especially when Blizzard helps with this by making it more difficult to protect/cover your maps with corruption. The data inside the files like models or textures doesn't get corrupted, only the names are changed which means my point still stands. To add to that, you can now restore file names with ease based on how you put the imported file into your map and used it. For example you import GiantMinion.mdx and use it as a model for a unit in object editor, it takes less then a minute to restore the .mdx file from 000001.xxx to GiantMinion.mdx.

 

[deepstrasz]

To add to that, you can now restore file names with ease based on how you put the imported file into your map and used it. For example you import GiantMinion.mdx and use it as a model for a unit in object editor, it takes less then a minute to restore the .mdx file from 000001.xxx to GiantMinion.mdx.

What you write of is not something most will do. We're not talking about sophisticated means to find out credits. We need in your face stuff that comes easy to everyone.
I don't doubt those possibilities. I'm saying they're generally impractical.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

What you write of is not something most will do. We're not talking about sophisticated means to find out credits. We need in your face stuff that comes easy to everyone.
I don't doubt those possibilities. I'm saying they're generally impractical.

The in your face stuff tends to be ignored except for the map reviewer who'll read it once or twice I would guess, backups are handy which is why they're used and recommended. If at least the file names are named for credit then maybe these lists wouldn't be as tiring to make. If you expect a mapmaker to sort through hundreds or thousands of resources to properly credit then there shouldn't be a problem to expect someone who devotes their time to make those wonderful resources to spend maybe a minute with that extra step...

 

[deepstrasz]

The in your face stuff tends to be ignored except for the map reviewer who'll read it once or twice I would guess, backups are handy which is why they're used and recommended. If at least the file names are named for credit then maybe these lists wouldn't be as tiring to make. If you expect a mapmaker to sort through hundreds or thousands of resources to properly credit then there shouldn't be a problem to expect someone who devotes their time to make those wonderful resources to spend maybe a minute with that extra step...

That's better. Let's just hope they won't still resort to laziness when they will start making the list after using hundreds or more resources because that's basically what Chaosy said he wouldn't do.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

That's better. Let's just hope they won't still resort to laziness when they will start making the list after using hundreds or more resources because that's basically what Chaosy said he wouldn't do.

Though that laziness works both ways and is even worse on the resource creators side when they spend much more time per resource when a minute would get them more people crediting them for their great work, I definitely don't check credits per import as I import or before I import it. If I can't find the name easy enough then I will just ask them to let me know if I forgot anything which a lot have been doing too. I can already guarantee there'd be one more person giving credits better if there was an easy to find signature as you mentioned.

Edit: If this one minute per resource extra step was put into place, mapmakers could just screenshot their import managers giving the deserved credit to the makers of the resources they used in their projects.

 

[loktar]