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Content Moderation and it's impact on the creator's ideas.

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by meatfactory, Sep 28, 2018.

?

Do you believe this could be real issue sometimes?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  3. Maybe

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    The idea behind this thread is to reduce the alterations made by requests of the resource moderators to the content creator's ideas if the original idea does not break any of the rules and is functioning properly.

    While it is of upmost importance to keep the quality of the resources on the site at it's best, there maybe a "darker" side to the process of moderation. For example, if someone submits a resource which more or less follows the rules under which a resource could be submitted and it is of sufficient quality it should be approved. However at the whim of the moderators this could be a long and tedious process which could lead to the total metamorphosis of the creator's original idea (for better or worse).

    A specific example:

    I bring your attention to this -> Harbor of War
    Now on most points the moderator is correct and actions have be taken to improve the resource,
    however the status of the resource is held on "awaiting update" for the soul reason that it doesn't follow
    a guideline from a user-made tutorial which is not an official site rule.

    Please don't think this thread is some sort of whining about a resource's status. I do believe this is a serious issue which should be addressed and some code should be further developed to prevent situations like these.
     
  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

    Map Reviewer

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    That's why there are moderators/reviewers so that the rules won't be easily dodged with lower quality stuff. The rules are mostly vague or incomplete.

    I've asked Ralle to include the tag descriptions in the rules so that such interminable debates won't appear but it didn't happen.
     
  3. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Oh do not get me started on that clown fiesta of a section.

    Nothing against the enforcers, I just fundamentally disagree on how it is being run.

    "Substandard" and "Approved" are words describing quality, yet there are multiple rules that have absolutely nothing to do with this.
    How a lack of credit list can cause a map to not be approved is beyond me, for example.
     
  4. Ralle

    Ralle

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    We have always required that people give credit where credit is due. I am sure most content creators agree with that. I feel like if we should discuss this topic more, we need a new thread.

    We will add tag descriptions for sure.
     
  5. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    In my opinion giving credit is just polite/decent/proper/fair but I do not see how it has anything to do with quality.
    And substandard is clearly describing quality.

    But it is just a nitpick so I do not think it should be a big discussion.
     
  6. KILLCIDE

    KILLCIDE

    Administrator

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    A map won't get rejected because it is missing a credits list; it will be put on Awaiting Update until a credits list is made. What kind of rush are people in to dislike their map being put on Awaiting Update because of a missing credits list?
     
  7. Credits list should be generated automatically, by looking into imported files. Server should automatically ask map submitter for author of any unrecognized asset. Afterwards user could add any names to the credits list.
    Default contents of melee map descriptions should be generated by categorically enlisting pre-placed units and generating an image where creep camp icons (of appropriate color) are placed onto the map preview image.
     
  8. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Fair enough. But let's say I do not update my description, eventually it will be put as substandard.

    As I said, it is not really that serious of a problem it really is a nitpick which I do not even know why I dislike, it just triggers me.

    If I made directors cut map and it did not get approved by a mod because of a credit list.. I'd lose my shit.

    Actually, I do know why it triggers but I just feel like I have a problem putting it into words.
    It's like: "I apply to a basketball team, coach rejects me because I have red shoes. Which happens to the the team's color" it has nothing to do with my performance at all.

    How about, just judging whatever I submit by its quality alone? to me that just makes sense.

    There is already a imported list for all maps now. However it only works for stuff downloaded from the hive AFAIK
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  9. KILLCIDE

    KILLCIDE

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    Makes sense, but in our case, the "coach" told you not to wear red shoes, and if you still wore them, that's on you lol. Anyway, the Reviewers are just following a process. Making exceptions to rules because of special cases can easily get abused by other users, so its best to keep the rules black / white so we save everyone headaches in the future.

    I actually think the credits list is sort of off topic of what OP intended. Im guessing this is similar to a case in the icon section where authors were making "required" changes based on their taste vs considering the authors vision.
     
  10. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Even so, it's not like Michael Jordan would get rejected because of his shoes, see what I am getting at?

    As I said, I understand that mods/reviewers are just following the site rules, I do not blame them for that.
    All I am saying that I find rules that does not relate to quality pointless, if anything I have a problem with Ralle's view of what is required in a map (since he is ultimately the one who decides the rules)

    Obviously, it would not be fair to only apply rule X if the map is average or less.
    Which is why I'd remove the rule entirely.

    ___

    As for being off topic, I think there can be some truth to that thought it connected with the thread's purpose to some extent.
    Once I read the thread again I realize that my initial translation was a bit off to put it mildly.

    That said, approving a map should be insanely simple.
    Play map, ask yourself "was it fun" if the answer is yes: approve it
    Very simple.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  11. Ralle

    Ralle

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    It only works for stuff on Hive that is the same version as the stuff on Hive. So if a used model file is changed, the chain is broken.
    He wouldn't even show up at the game if he got pulled over for a broken tail light.
     
  12. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Maybe he walked.
     
  13. KILLCIDE

    KILLCIDE

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    Thats definitely not true. When it comes to anything on the site, everyone on the Staff has to agree to it, not just Ralle. In addition, the rules probably havent been updated in years. It takes threads like this for us to decide to revist the rules and adjust them accordingly. The same case happened for both the Spells & Icon section.
     
  14. Alxen345

    Alxen345

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    Instead of creating a thread for things like this, you could have simply talked to the reviewer that moderated your map. The rules are totally fine in my point of view. As for the credits, it's fine as well. Think of this, you create an icon, some models and an User Interface. Someone uses them all in his/her map, without putting you in the credits list as a "THANK YOU BOY FOR CREATING THESE AWESOME STUFFS". Wouldn't that be kinda unfair? The modellers, icon creators and so on, put effort in what they do, it is totally normal to have a credits list.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  15. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Hiveworkshop is not just a site. We're trying to do things here somewhat academically, hence references are an important aspect of the overall stability.

    This would be over quick if we had the tag guide in the rules and the new melee tag (Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes) added otherwise the melee or altered melee tag description would have to be changed. I know the tweaked melee tag is sloppy but the idea was to save those thinly altered melee maps from Substandard so authors won't suffer and not to combine these maps with those melee with major gameplay/visual etc. changes.
     
  16. Hence the "Server should automatically ask map submitter for author of any unrecognized asset. Afterwards user could add any names to the credits list."
     
  17. tulee

    tulee

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    It is hard to take these complaint threads about maps not getting approved when they come across as whining about their own map's situation. Also, it is hard to not notice how many of these threads convey an expectation that the staff/moderators have no other purpose in life except to serve Hiveworkshop. But I guess when you have a website like hive where people as young as 10 years of age are mixed with people in their 30s, there will be confusion as to the role the staff/moderators play. The rules for moderation reflect a desire for HWS to become a higher quality community, and not just a map repository. If you come across rules that you feel do not have a place on this website, perhaps try to make a post conveying your arguments about they should be removed, and not make general complaints about the "system". For me personally, I disregard all comments that make broad generalizations that hint that "the system" is against. This "darker side" the original poster mentions fits right into that paranoid theme, and it masks any real arguments he made behind a wall of ignorance.

    The Original poster's complaint on his thread was regarding the issue of how to label maps with the melee tag. That issue has been debated before, and I believe it was for the sake of melee players that those maps with non standard melee doodads/units would not be allowed to be posted under the melee tag.

    The argument for the credits not being mandatory really shows a lack of awareness about why it is so important to include them, not just for the community but for the sake of the author of the map himself/herself. Also, expecting the admins to be able to solve the issue of the server not being able to recognize credits when there is a discrepancy between the model version on hive and the one in the map with a simple snap of their fingers is silly.
     
  18.  
  19. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    The "Resource in Use" tab is not very reliable when it comes to credits.

    Resources that do not hail from the Hive Workshop are obviously not credited (this is kinda predictable, but still).
    Also, more importantly, it is not very accurate. I have been looking through the 30 pages of "Resources in Use" of
    one of my campaigns and have seen quite a few resources from Hive that are definitely NOT imported into the campaign file.
    Other resources from the Hive were missing.
    While it is a good addition to find used resources, it cannot be trusted to replace a seperate credits list.
    I think that the lack of creating a credit list is nothing but laziness which should not be supported.
     
  20. That's bad code to be fixed.
    I think you don't even try to understand my proposal, which would enforce crediting each asset, factoring out human error due to failing to keep tabs on asset credits. And do not conflate automation and laziness, this is about automatically putting the user to maintain credits, maybe autofilling some.

    Visual for troglodytes:
    upload_2018-10-3_13-38-15.png
    The server is making sure Cool_Orb.mdx is credited as well.