Is Logic Real?

[Hakeem]

Have you ever tried to hold yourself up in the air? It doesn't work because there is nothing between you and the ground to keep you suspended.

Is logic the same?

Does our logic only work in our universe? If god can do anything, does that mean our logic doesn't work on his level? Can we even answer that question with our logic, if our logic is only a creation?

I think the only thing holding our logic up is itself and therefore: yes, yes, yes, no.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Have you ever tried to hold yourself up in the air? It doesn't work because there is nothing between you and the ground to keep you suspended.

Is logic the same?

Does our logic only work in our universe? If god can do anything, does that mean our logic doesn't work on his level? Can we even answer that question with our logic, if our logic is only a creation?

I think the only thing holding our logic up is itself and therefore: yes, yes, yes, no.

1. I think they call that the laws of physics.
2. Only work in our universe? The universe is all of space and everything in it, and therefore, there can only be one universe.
3. Nothing is "above logic". That's a stupid way to put it. If a new phenomenon occurs, new logic happens. Logic is a growing knowledge of the mechanics of everything.
4. God is a hypothetical entity that can't be proven nor disproven, and has unknown traits. The only known thing about this being that we are sure of is that he is above some known scientific laws, and therefore could not be explained in any other way than supernatural. In fact, what we see of him is composed completely of logic and religion.

 

[SimonKurciski]

Well, logic is pretty universal. For example, If I gave you the following problem to solve:

There are two people in one room. There is also one hat in this room. One of the people in the room puts on the hat. How many people in the room are wearing a hat?

The above is a very stupid problem. Most normal people could figure it out as soon as they had read it. But how did you figure it out? By using logic. It is logically impossible for more than one person in the room to be wearing a hat. Now this is according to our laws of physics and whatnot. In other universes, there may be a different set of logical rules.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Well, logic is pretty universal. For example, If I gave you the following problem to solve:

There are two people in one room. There is also one hat in this room. One of the people in the room puts on the hat. How many people in the room are wearing a hat?

The above is a very stupid problem. Most normal people could figure it out as soon as they had read it. But how did you figure it out? By using logic. It is logically impossible for more than one person in the room to be wearing a hat. Now this is according to our laws of physics and whatnot. In other universes, there may be a different set of logical rules.

If there are other universes, they do not utilize space and mass, and therefore is plenty irrelevant and most likely nonexistent. Furthermore, there are not "different sets of logical rules". There is only one logic. The logic is just knowledge. The "hat" problem had different ways to tackle it. What if a person was already wearing a hat? What if the hat fit more than one person? These are thoughts that do not cross because common sense dictates these things as unlikely and therefore shouldn't be thought of. But we aren't using common sense. Logic is every single thought of the mechanics of, well, everything. Logic can't be proven wrong. Of some logic doesn't pertain to something, new logic is created. That's what the scientific method is all about.

 

[robot-dude]

Here's Another logic for Religous People :

If a Person belive in god are they saying; "I belive that their is a higher power then me that controls my life" or "I belive that theirs something out their is more advanced then me".



Fact : Some Times Logic can not be proven or dis-Proven.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Here's Another logic for Religous People :

If a Person belive in god are they saying; "I belive that their is a higher power then me that controls my life" or "I belive that theirs something out their is more advanced then me".



Fact : Some Times Logic can not be proven or dis-Proven.

If it can't be proven nor disproven, it's nothing more than Santa Claus.

 

[Hakeem]

1. I think they call that the laws of physics.
2. Only work in our universe? The universe is all of space and everything in it, and therefore, there can only be one universe.
3. Nothing is "above logic". That's a stupid way to put it. If a new phenomenon occurs, new logic happens. Logic is a growing knowledge of the mechanics of everything.
4. God is a hypothetical entity that can't be proven nor disproven, and has unknown traits. The only known thing about this being that we are sure of is that he is above some known scientific laws, and therefore could not be explained in any other way than supernatural. In fact, what we see of him is composed completely of logic and religion.

1. I'm not talking about physics I'm talking about logic.
2. Our universe doesn't contain every dimension (assuming there are other). There could be other dimensions that we do not intersect and there could be an infinite number of universes other than our own. We don't know if there are other universes.
3. Our universe is clearly bound by logic (and physics) everything in our universe can be explained logically.
4. I can prove god exists but I don't think anyone who doesn't believe in god would accept my explanation.

In other universes, there may be a different set of logical rules.

Exactly. What besides our logic tells us that our logic is the only logic in all the cosmos.

If a Person belive in god are they saying; "I belive that their is a higher power then me that controls my life" or "I belive that theirs something out their is more advanced then me".

And?

 

[robot-dude]

If it can't be proven nor disproven, it's nothing more than Santa Claus.

The following Logics Was Proven to be a fake :

Santa Claus
Jesus (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
God (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
Tooth Fairly
Easter Bunny
Buggy Man.

Following Logics been proven as Real :

Contacting the Dead
Seeing Ghosts
Able to See 2minutes into the Future
Able Too See Ghosts Whilst Debugging Sounds/Images.
Black Magic (Which Causes to release Evil spirits which will harm you)

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

1. I'm not talking about physics I'm talking about logic.
2. Our universe doesn't contain every dimension (assuming there are other). There could be other dimensions that we do not intersect and there could be an infinite number of universes other than our own. We don't know if there are other universes.
3. Our universe is clearly bound by logic (and physics) everything in our universe can be explained logically.
4. I can prove god exists but I don't think anyone who doesn't believe in god would accept my explanation.

Dimensions do not explain anything but shapes and directions. Christ, the only reason dimensions are explained as "different worlds" and such is because of a hypothesis that you would need to at least understand another dimension in order to travel to other worlds.. I don't think understanding a tesseract will produce a new set of logic. Our universe is not bound by anything. We create logic. Logic is not something that was set in stone. Logic is knowledge. The more we know, the more is added to logic. If there is proof of god that only a believer will believe, that isn't really proof. It's a group of people agreeing with each other.

Exactly. What besides our logic tells us that our logic is the only logic in all the cosmos.

There isn't more than one logic. Logic is something we create. It's knowledge. It's a group of facts that we add more and more to. If pigs flew in the 92nd dimension, it's still our logic. We would just add that fact to a list of long facts.

The following Logics Was Proven to be a fake :

Santa Claus
Jesus (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
God (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
Tooth Fairly
Easter Bunny
Buggy Man.

Following Logics been proven as Real :

Contacting the Dead
Seeing Ghosts
Able to See 2minutes into the Future
Able Too See Ghosts Whilst Debugging Sounds/Images.
Black Magic (Which Causes to release Evil spirits which will harm you)

1. Those aren't "logics". They are Religious beliefs.
2. If it's "your opinion", it's not really proven fake, is it?
3. CITATIONS

 

[SimonKurciski]

@MySpaceBarBroke:

I disagree that there can only be one logic. Taking the hat thing, for example. What if, in some universe, it was possible for one object to be in two places at once? Then two people could logically wear the same hat, which, for the purposes of argument, only fits one person.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

@MySpaceBarBroke:

I disagree that there can only be one logic. Taking the hat thing, for example. What if, in some universe, it was possible for one object to be in two places at once? Then two people could logically wear the same hat, which, for the purposes of argument, only fits one person.

Again, it only adds to logic, not make a new set of logic. If in that place, items have no mass as such, it would only add to current logic. Why don't you get it? Laws of physics =/= logic. Logic is just whatever you know.

 

[Hakeem]

Logic is set in stone:
1+1=2
That's logic, discovering that pigs fly in the 92nd dimension is science not logic.

 

[robot-dude]

I would love to say. "This is what Gangs say where i live" Pigs do fly .

Police are known as "Pigs" and "Hot Fuzz".

And if you entered another Demension those Logics in that Demension could over right any of our Logic''s. Such as Able to fly without the use of wings and feathers.

Or

You might be entered into the same world but the good people you know are bad, and the bad people are good.

Left will be right, and right would be left.
Smart would be Dumb
Section A(Known as by immature people Retards) people would be Smart.
Smart people would be Section A People.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Logic is set in stone:
1+1=2
That's logic, discovering that pigs fly in the 92nd dimension is science not logic.

Jesus Christ, I'm dying here. Logic is not just mathematics and philosophy. Logic means whatever we understand of everything. It's just knowledge. the flying pig thing is logic. After learning of such, one might want to find out why there is such a thing, they might create new theories to explain this. The new theories will be considered logic, then we add more and more and more. That's how it works. That's the scientific method. Logic is not set in stone. The universe is set in stone (and others, if they exist). Logic is our interpretation of it.

 

[RedBlade]

If you find an apple in a swer (how do we write it?) and you eat it u mostly die from infection. This way logic should say ''Dude ..... ARE YOU TOTALLY NUTS ????''

Now that was a bad example .... but u should get the point...

 

[Hakeem]

Logic is not the same as knowledge.
1+1=2 and 1+2=3 and 1+3=4
Therefore logic tells us that:
2+2=4
That is logic, using reason to figure out what must be true. When we find proof that 2+2=4 using science, we can add it to our knowledge.

 

[robot-dude]

Heres another logic.

If you drop a Bowling Ball at the same time as you jumped of a sky Scraper.
Who would hit the floor first ?

The Good thing about that logic you do not no the weight of the bowling ball or the person jumping off so you can not know which will hit the floor first

So this is more of a Cliff Hanger Logic.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Logic is not the same as knowledge.
1+1=2 and 1+2=3 and 1+3=4
Therefore logic tells us that:
2+2=4
That is logic, using reason to figure out what must be true. When we find proof that 2+2=4 using science, we can add it to our knowledge.

That's not logic... That's common sense. Those 2 things are completely different. Yes, logic is knowledge. We create it. It's not set in stone or anything.

Logic (from Classical Greek λόγος logos; meaning word, thought, idea, argument, account, reason or principle) is the study of the principles and criteria of valid inference and demonstration.

This does not pertain just to physics. This does not pertain just to mathematics. And this most certainly does not pertain to common sense. Valid inference and demonstration. It means it's the study of whether assumed facts are true or not, and whether or not it's a plausible belief. THAT'S ALL.

 

[Razorbrain]

Heres another logic.

If you drop a Bowling Ball at the same time as you jumped of a sky Scraper.
Who would hit the floor first ?

The Good thing about that logic you do not no the weight of the bowling ball or the person jumping off so you can not know which will hit the floor first

So this is more of a Cliff Hanger Logic.

with logical thinking, you would know that the fall speed of a object is measured not only with the weight of the object, but also the areal

that is logic, we make it, but it has been there for as long as there has been a universe, its not like we discover it, and it just happends to be there

 

[Hakeem]

Logic [...] is the study of the principles and criteria of valid inference and demonstration.

That means what we can figure out, not what we know and can prove. It does not mean the study of whether assumed facts are true or not.

What word would you suggest I use instead of logic?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

That means what we can figure out, not what we know and can prove. It does not mean the study of whether assumed facts are true or not.

What word would you suggest I use instead of logic?

Scientific Laws of our Universe? lol, SLU.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

The following Logics Was Proven to be a fake :

Santa Claus
Jesus (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
God (Non-Religius People "My Opinion)
Tooth Fairly
Easter Bunny
Buggy Man.

Following Logics been proven as Real :

Contacting the Dead
Seeing Ghosts
Able to See 2minutes into the Future
Able Too See Ghosts Whilst Debugging Sounds/Images.
Black Magic (Which Causes to release Evil spirits which will harm you)

Those are all concepts, not "logics".

Also, all of them except for God and Jesus are exquisitely false. God may or may not be exquisitely false, but something that touchy is not for me to say, as well as impossible to prove in either direction.
Jesus certainly existed, you fail pretty hard for denying that. What is controversial is whether his biblical actions are true or not.

I disagree that there can only be one logic. Taking the hat thing, for example. What if, in some universe, it was possible for one object to be in two places at once? Then two people could logically wear the same hat, which, for the purposes of argument, only fits one person.

That happens in this universe, electrons simultaneously going through two different holes. I don't remember the experiment, but the article eventually got around to saying "if electrons can be in two places at once, what's stopping us?".

Heres another logic.

If you drop a Bowling Ball at the same time as you jumped of a sky Scraper.
Who would hit the floor first ?

The Good thing about that logic you do not no the weight of the bowling ball or the person jumping off so you can not know which will hit the floor first

So this is more of a Cliff Hanger Logic.

[HIGHLIGHT]No[/code]. That can certainly be solved by logic. The bowling ball would hit the ground first. A sphere denser than a human definitely has a higher terminal velocity than a human. Clothing would definitely create drag, not only lowering the person's velocity but his acceleration.

Alright then, here is actual logic for you, proving that the moon landing was not faked: There is a video of Lance Armstrong (or possibly Buzz Aldrin) holding both a hammer and a feather. He drops them, and they fall at the same rate. The reason they do not on earth is because of air resistance. It would be next to impossible (if not impossible) to produce a large enough vacuum chamber to record the entire "fake" moon landing, especially considering that the fake landing is supposed to have happened in the middle of the Arizona Desert. Judging by the impossibility of such a feat, the moon landing was quite obviously not fake.

 

[Hakeem]

"Scientific Laws of our Universe" is not logic, it's knowledge.
Philosophers use logic. Logic is the process of reasoning to come to a conclusion. You use logic to form a hypothesis. The more you know the more you can reason.

That's what I mean by 'logic'. Can you think of a better word?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

"Scientific Laws of our Universe" is not logic, it's knowledge.
Philosophers use logic. Logic is the process of reasoning to come to a conclusion. You use logic to form a hypothesis. The more you know the more you can reason.

That's what I mean by 'logic'. Can you think of a better word?

It wasn't supposed to be synonymous with logic, it was supposed to be a better word to replace all the times you've said logic.

 

[Kitabatake]

4. I can prove god exists

I'd certainly like to hear your proof

 

[Mecheon]

Following Logics been proven as Real :

Contacting the Dead
Seeing Ghosts
Able to See 2minutes into the Future
Able Too See Ghosts Whilst Debugging Sounds/Images.
Black Magic (Which Causes to release Evil spirits which will harm you)

Oh REALLY?

For your first point. Go contact the dead in a controlled scientific enviroment and prove it. I have a community who'd be interested in your results
Get me undisputable evidence for the second as well
Prove the third, seeing as, while I have hella hunches, I've seen no evidence
Prove the forth undisputably and not just due to the human habit of seeing patterns which aren't actually there
The fifth sounds silly. Prove it as well

 

[Arab4life]

Jeez you people. There is nothing complicated about Logic.

Take it this way. If you have a working brain, you have logic.

My definition of logic: Solving problems and realizing different situations.

If you have a brain, you have logic. Its like saying, "I dont believe in thinking".

Its something anything with a brain has.

A cat has a brain, my cat attempts to reach a piece of balony (i hate actually trying to spell it, balgonae or what ever)scraps on the balcony, she figures the situation by thinking (Logic) and use's the fence to reach the balcony up high.

There is no Philosophy about Logic. Anything with a mind has logic.

Why do you people take everything so complicated?

Following Logics been proven as Real

Technically, those sound like your opinions.
You think Dark magic exists (no offence intended but i think it sounds silly) but your proof is what you think you saw. Thinking so doesnt make it so. And dont go "No i saw it, i saw dark spirits haunt me" because you didnt. You THINK you saw evil spirits haunting you. If you think something without real proof, then it is not logic, it is your opinion.

 

[Shados]

Logic is not knowledge, logic is the principles or methods of reasoning and arguementation. While logic can be used to obtain and interpret knowledge, it is as different to knowledge as the means are to the end.


-*meow*

 

[lorothrigs]

Logic is simply a system of reasoning. It's nothing more complicated than that.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I'd certainly like to hear your proof

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/ claims to use logic to prove that God exists.

Some of their arguments are a little off, especially considering that while the concepts of the laws of etc. are abstract, the laws them selves are as tangible as you or me.

Basically, if you go along with everything, you end up reading this:

To reach this page you had to acknowledge that immaterial, universal, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality exist. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are necessary for rational thinking to be possible. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws cannot be accounted for if the universe was random or only material in nature.

The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.

Romans 1 vs. 18 - 21 says:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist. Only in a universe governed by God can rational thinking be possible. We use rational thinking to prove things. Therefore...

The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything.

Another page states this:

How do Christians account for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws?

Christians account for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws as they reflect the very nature of God.

The Bible accounts for immaterial entities as in John 4 vs. 24 it states: "God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth."

In Malachi 3 vs. 6 God says "I the Lord do not change." accounting for His unchanging nature.

Psalm 90 vs. 2 states: "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God." and Psalm 139 vs. 7 - 10 states: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast," accounting for God's universality.

The laws of logic, mathematics, science, and morality, reflect the thinking and character of God and what He has created in order to accomplish His purposes.

In Jeremiah 33 vs. 25 God speaks of how He has 'fixed the laws of heaven and earth.' These universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are the basis for all knowledge and are rooted in God's word. The apostle Paul said in his letter to the Colossians: My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Chapter 2 vs. 2 - 3)

Of course everyone uses universal, immaterial, unchanging laws, but many do so denying their only possible source. Christianity proclaims the source which can be summarized with Christ's declaration: "apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15 vs. 5)

This is what it shows you if, at the end, you click "I do not believe God exists"

Denying the existence of God is not unbelief but an exercise in self-deception. You may know things, but you cannot account for anything you know. Arguing against God's existence would be on par with arguing against the existence of air, breathing it all the while. You use the universal, immaterial, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality in order to come to rational decisions, but you cannot account for them. These laws are not the only way God has revealed himself to you, but they are sufficient to show the irrationality of your thinking, and expose your guilt for denying Him.

There is a reason that you deny the existence of God and it has nothing to do with proof. I can show this to you. Examine what your initial reaction was to the proof of God's existence offered on this website. Did you think that you could continue to deny God because you are not a scientist, or philosopher but 'Surely somewhere, sometime, a philosopher or scientist will come up with an explanation for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws apart from God?' Did you try to come up with an alternate explanation on your own? OR Did you even consider that the proof was valid?

Hoping that an alternate explanation for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws can someday be found apart from God, is a blind leap of faith, or wishful thinking. Isn't it interesting that this is exactly what professed unbelievers accuse Christians of?

Please examine the real reason why you are running from God. It is my prayer that God will open your eyes and change your heart so that you may be saved from your sin, embraced by His forgiving love, and come to know the peace which passes all understanding.

This is where it takes you if you say that you do believe: http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php

While I personally believe that there must have been some God to create all of everything, I doubt he actually cares about humanity. If finding God turns your life around (in a good way) good for you.

 

[lorothrigs]

That website is completely illogical. It leads you to you think like them.

You have denied that absolute moral laws exist but you appeal to them all the time. You say that rape IS wrong because you know that it IS wrong and not just against your personal preference. Unless you reconsider your stand on this matter, your road to this site's proof that God exists ends here. It is my prayer that you come to understand how inconsistent and irrational this line of thinking is and return to seek the truth.

Obviously I think it's wrong. That's only because my parents and the society I live in told me that. If I was told otherwise then it would not be wrong(for me). I then either can click "Back" or "Exit" after they tell me I'm irrational and illogical. It's circle logic.

Then they ask whether the laws are unchanging, of course it's changing. In the Catholic Faith, 3 = 1. The Trinity.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Logic is universal. It exists (so far as a concept can exist) in any circumstances. Correct logic is absolute proof for all circumstances where the assumptions hold true.

Correct logic is always the same, but assumptions may change.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

That website is completely illogical. It leads you to you think like them.

Obviously I think it's wrong. That's only because my parents and the society I live in told me that. If I was told otherwise then it would not be wrong(for me). I then either can click "Back" or "Exit" after they tell me I'm irrational and illogical. It's circle logic.

Then they ask whether the laws are unchanging, of course it's changing. In the Catholic Faith, 3 = 1. The Trinity.

Yeah. Like in some cultures eating the dead is actually taboo. Well then what are they supposed to do with that meat? Taking natural resources from Mother Earth, hmph. Not to mention that all the laws the mention are completely material (which I may have already said). Not to mention they basically say "matter isn't organized". Haha, crystal formations are based upon the molecular structure of the rock, GGYOULOSE.

 

[Razorbrain]

one more thing about that website

it said that the Laws of Science(about how objects interact with eachother, like what Fire does to Water and what Water does to Fire) was Immaterial

now, if we freeze there, it says that, in fact, the abilities of Water and Fire doesnt exist, that they are mere Immaterial

explain that to me someone

 

[Teh_Ephy]

They claim to use logic, but logically the are wrong. The laws of science are material, it is our descriptions and concepts of them that are immaterial. Flower petals and leaves grow in spirals that are related to the Fibonacci Sequence (I don't remember how, I'll look it up). There's mathematics in nature. "Two" is a concept that represents something material. The golden ratio exists everywhere in nature, and is a part of what humans (subconsciously) consider to be beautiful. Here is the Discover Magazine article about the man who did a study about that if you don't believe me.

Anyways, back to logic. Now!

 

[Eleandor]

since the start of the universe (or at least the big bang), the velocity of light has been decreased slightly... not much, but it did.
Morality is changing, just look at homosexuality, more and more people start to accept that in the civilization. Look at divorces, people don't think anymore you'll go to hell because you divorce.

And I completely agree with you, lorothrigs.

Now for those that don't know what logics is:

Morality is changing, just look at homosexuality, more and more people start to accept that in the civilization

. If you agree, you used logics. If you disagree, you know what logics is NOT (because you're being illogical). Now you can only understand what logics is, by knowing what logics is NOT. If you do understand that, you're using logics. otherwise, you're hopeless.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Morality is changing, just look at homosexuality, more and more people start to accept that in the civilization.

Actually, the ancient Greeks indulged in homosexuality quite frequently. The site defeats itself because of its lack of acknowledgement that Christianity certainly shifted moral laws quite a bit.

Erm... gb2/logic/ nao!

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

since the start of the universe (or at least the big bang), the velocity of light has been decreased slightly... not much, but it did.
Morality is changing, just look at homosexuality, more and more people start to accept that in the civilization. Look at divorces, people don't think anymore you'll go to hell because you divorce.

And I completely agree with you, lorothrigs.

Now for those that don't know what logics is:

. If you agree, you used logics. If you disagree, you know what logics is NOT (because you're being illogical). Now you can only understand what logics is, by knowing what logics is NOT. If you do understand that, you're using logics. otherwise, you're hopeless.

Morality doesn't change. Our perspective of it changes. What's bad is still bad and what's good is still good no matter what way you look at it. All humans are born knowing the basic things of good and bad, like compassion for other human beings, respect for law and order, etc. We are simply getting more in touch with it the more we think.

 

[Hakeem]

I wont tell you my absolute proof of god, it would be a waste of time.
This thread is not about god. I would rather this thread weren't closed because it was talking about god.

I think we all understand 'logic' now.

Logically, we can conclude that our logic is only supported by our logic, and that there is no proof that our logic would work in other universes. Right?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Logically, we can conclude that our logic is only supported by our logic, and that there is no proof that our logic would work in other universes. Right?

Of course, there is no reason to doubt that logic would not work in alternate plains of existence. And sorry for thread hijack.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

We don't HAVE a logic. Logic is a single thing that is as real and solid as the universe. The only things that might not work on other universes, assuming there ARE other universes, are our perspectives of logic. If our perspectives of logic do not work, our perspectives of logic are widened.

 

[Eleandor]

Morality doesn't change. Our perspective of it changes. What's bad is still bad and what's good is still good no matter what way you look at it. All humans are born knowing the basic things of good and bad, like compassion for other human beings, respect for law and order, etc. We are simply getting more in touch with it the more we think.

no, morality happens to be our perspective on good/bad. Also: if all humans say abortion is good (or ok)and should be allowed, doesn't that MAKE it good? I'm sorry if this is going to sound harsh, but there IS no God that will make justice of us and tell us what is good or not. it is us who decide what is good and what is bad.

Let me make a simple example (as I have most contant with christianity, it's easier for me to "attack" that religion although I'm christian myself).
Some time ago (not sure of the year, it's at least 30 years ago), eating meat on friday was strictly prohibitted by the pope. If you did eat meat on friday, and you didn't confess for it, you would go to HELL.
Now, 10 years ago (again, I don't know when), the pope declared that eating meat on friday is no longer a sin. What the hell? So the man who's suppossed to spread the word of God suddenly decides something is good instead of bad? Now you have 2 options: you either believe that 1 of the popes has been *wrong* and will go to HELL, or you believe nobody but us decides what good or bad is. We don't change our perspective, we change the whole definition of good itself. There's only one morality, and that's what morality means to you.

Tell me why we're made of the IMAGE of God (according to christianity again), but only God knows the exact border between good and evil? Tell me why we eat from the tree of wisdom so we know good/evil but not the exact border? That would mean that Adam and Eva, who run naked around, which in our world would obviously be bad, have done bad things (before eating the fruits), but went unpunished. So why will we be punished because we know the difference but not the exact border? Maybe because there is no border at all.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

no, morality happens to be our perspective on good/bad. Also: if all humans say abortion is good (or ok)and should be allowed, doesn't that MAKE it good? I'm sorry if this is going to sound harsh, but there IS no God that will make justice of us and tell us what is good or not. it is us who decide what is good and what is bad.

But from where do we get these ideas from? If you are religious, you will believe these ideas are from god, and therefore morality is concrete. But if you are aren't religious, you still would have to take in the factor that these ideas, religious rules, establishment of civilizations, these things all had to come from somewhere. I believe we were all born with a basic mindset for what is right and wrong, and whether this has come from higher power(s) or evolution is beyond me.

Let me make a simple example (as I have most contant with christianity, it's easier for me to "attack" that religion although I'm christian myself).
Some time ago (not sure of the year, it's at least 30 years ago), eating meat on friday was strictly prohibitted by the pope. If you did eat meat on friday, and you didn't confess for it, you would go to HELL.
Now, 10 years ago (again, I don't know when), the pope declared that eating meat on friday is no longer a sin. What the hell? So the man who's suppossed to spread the word of God suddenly decides something is good instead of bad? Now you have 2 options: you either believe that 1 of the popes has been *wrong* and will go to HELL, or you believe nobody but us decides what good or bad is. We don't change our perspective, we change the whole definition of good itself. There's only one morality, and that's what morality means to you.

Again, this tradition has to have originated from somewhere, but has been overruled by rethinking of morality. Someone must have thought up this tradition, and made it popular, and later it was written into religion. The pope, probably thinking of this odd tradition and comparing it with the currently developed perspective of morality, has changed it. Again, this perspective of morality must have come from somewhere. If it was based off survival instinct, it would be a free for all world, so some other factor must have been involved, supernatural or not.

Tell me why we're made of the IMAGE of God (according to christianity again), but only God knows the exact border between good and evil? Tell me why we eat from the tree of wisdom so we know good/evil but not the exact border? That would mean that Adam and Eva, who run naked around, which in our world would obviously be bad, have done bad things (before eating the fruits), but went unpunished. So why will we be punished because we know the difference but not the exact border? Maybe because there is no border at all.

There is a border, but it's a border we cannot see. It's a border that becomes clearer and clearer to us the more we look into it. We may never see the border's true width, but I am most certain morality is solid and not a varying thing. I will not go into the maybe-ing world of bible stories, but I will say that the ten commandments have to have come from either god or humans. If it is from god, morality is solid because god dictates what's good or bad. If it is from us, morality is still solid because that would mean someone must have gotten the idea of something beyond free for all philosophy, and created a system that involved physically nonbeneficial sacrifice.

I wont tell you my absolute proof of god, it would be a waste of time.

I have solid proof that I am god, but only people who believe I am god will agree with me. Furthermore, I will not bother telling you my proof, but I expect you to take be seriously anyways. I am god.

 

[boomwolf]

saw this "prove god is real" site...

bunch of bulls...

they sometimes pick words so that "no" answer defies itself, while it would not with other wording...

and they make some conclusions upon other conclusions they never proved...

in the end-religious preaching....

 

[Hakeem]

I have solid proof that I am god, but only people who believe I am god will agree with me. Furthermore, I will not bother telling you my proof, but I expect you to take be seriously anyways. I am god.

I did not ask you to take me seriously about it.

 

[JacKThERiPPeR]

Without logic, we would haven't come out from the caves.

Another logic question: it's obvious that if you poke yourself a little deep with something pointy, it will hurt.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Without logic, we would haven't come out from the caves.

Another logic question: it's obvious that if you poke yourself a little deep with something pointy, it will hurt.

You know, questions usually ask things, and that isn't a display of logic, that is a display of common sense. The pointy thing could be quite frail and would break before causing any noticeable pain. It is therefore safe to assume that there is more than one possibility, depending on unknown conditions. That is logic, i think.

 

[Shados]

MySpaceBarBroke, morals and ethics are both merely perspectives, even if their is some sort of god or supreme being, then they are merely that being's perspectives, supposedly enforced on us. As for where they came from, it is obvious: humanity is more likely to survive in a world where people are repulsed by what is considered 'evil', and instead strive to be 'good'. So, natural selection would have worked towards this.


-*meow*

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

MySpaceBarBroke, morals and ethics are both merely perspectives, even if their is some sort of god or supreme being, then they are merely that being's perspectives, supposedly enforced on us. As for where they came from, it is obvious: humanity is more likely to survive in a world where people are repulsed by what is considered 'evil', and instead strive to be 'good'. So, natural selection would have worked towards this.


-*meow*

But think about it. If there was no God saying good or bad, and people weren't born with knowledge of good or bad, the only thing one might consider good is self benefit, and we would therefore have to live in a materialistic world. We'd still have to have a God to tell us what is good or bad, or be born with such knowledge, or we'd otherwise never actually sacrifice things for the betterment of others. Why would we help a person knowing he probably won't help us back? It's because it feels good to do so. But why does it feel good to do so? And what gave us the idea to help others in such a way in the first place? There has to be some source of morality that drives us to do so. We could not have done this ourselves. You say that humanity is likely to be repulsed by what is considered "evil", but why would they consider that evil? In most cases, it is because they hurt others, like rape or murder. But unless it happened to you, why would you care? Why would you call a rapist or a murderer sick? They didn't rape you. They didn't kill you. Why do you have sympathy? If you say because the rest of society educates you of sympathy, how did they get their sympathy? Their ancient ancestors must also have had sympathy. But where did they get it from? Why did it feel good to help others? There has to be a source of our love for the fellow man, be it god, or our brain.

Pardon the ridiculously long paragraph.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

i consider logic as it is used in electronics, or logic gates. it basically is a decision based on preset rules to give a certain result. this can be used to ask a question which will result in a logical outcome. this works in real terms as the rules we associate with our environment are rules we have picked up by experience in life. for example if we want to go somewhere we logically know the quickest route is a straight line; but this may not be possible over a mountain so we go around it. the rules are straight line and not being able to go over mountains, but one defeats the other to result in a correct and logical outcome. this may not be a great example but the meaning is the same, logic is simply a decision based on preset rules.