Existence of God

[Deometris]

Do you create characters so that you can act like yourself?

Authors always have characters in thier books that have similarities to themself.

Some people think that they understand god's nature, and try to use that to say he does not exist.

How can they understand god's nature and at the same time believe he doesnt exist? I think what you mean is they think they can understand the nature of God depicted in the bible, or some other religious text.

Anyways, Its an assumption to say that the Bible shows the true nature of god, or some other religious text does, after all thier just books telling you thier version of history. And they can't all be correct, because they do obvoiusly contradict eachother.

Also, how would the nature of god be used to prove he (im using "he" because its an easy way to refer to him) does or does not exist? Maybe he is a sadist, that doesnt contradict his existence.. Maybe it does according to a religious text, but again nothing shows thier the truth.

 

[Elenai]

A question for everyone here....

The Bible actually shows a historical chronicle of the Hebrew people and is backed by archealogical evidence. So at least its true in historical value...as well as moral value. Why not then should it be true in God's nature? And why should it not be true?

 

[Deometris]

The Bible actually shows a historical chronicle of the Hebrew people and is backed by archealogical evidence. So at least its true in historical value...

You mean some facts from it are true? That doesnt mean ALL of its true.

as well as moral value

True in moral value? You're trying to say that morals expressed in it must be the true morals of god? Thats ridiculous and unfounded. Also that would impy all other religious text are preaching false values, and the values do obviously differ. What an assertion.

 

[Hakeem]

Why would you create characters to act like someone you aren't? Most people spend most of their lives putting on masks to be accepted in real life, why would they need to do it in their imagination?

Because God was alone. If you were locked away from the world with nobody to interact with, then you could very easily find a need to do it in your imagination.

I have a question Hakeem. You are a Muslim correct?

If I went to Hell...would I stay for eternity? Or would I go through a cleansing process and enter Heaven later?

My religion, my beliefs of the afterlife, your religion, and your beliefs of the afterlife, are irrelevant to the debate, because we cannot possibly know the nature of God.
My explanation for the existence of God does not involve God's nature, it relies on physics and logic.

Sorry if I offended you or anything, I just picked a random religion that has had... disagreements with Christianity.

I was not offended, but the debate is not about Christianity.

Authors always have characters in thier books that have similarities to themself.

Keyword: similar. They will also very often have characters very different from themselves.

How can they understand god's nature and at the same time believe he doesnt exist? I think what you mean is they think they can understand the nature of God depicted in the bible, or some other religious text.

They try to understand what God's nature must be in order for him to exist. Then when its illogical, they think they've disproved him.

Also, how would the nature of god be used to prove he (im using "he" because its an easy way to refer to him) does or does not exist? Maybe he is a sadist, that doesnt contradict his existence.. Maybe it does according to a religious text, but again nothing shows thier the truth.

I guess the nature of God is actually used to try and disprove a religion.

Something everyone should note: There are many more reasons to believe in God than simply because we want to or because something is unexplainable.

 

[Elenai]

I was only asking a question to verify if I posted correctly when I posted information that most likley involved a major theme in the Quaran.

It was for the sake of not being wrong in my information.

But you are correct. There are more reasons to believe in God than simply because we wish to.....It also gives us peace and hope.

 

[donut3.5]

Because God was alone. If you were locked away from the world with nobody to interact with, then you could very easily find a need to do it in your imagination.

So he puts a bunch of humans doomed to become immoral into his world.
That's exactly the morality it takes for humans to pit animals each other to the death in an arena ring.
No offense to the big guy, but he sounds like a real wanker to me :\
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

Far from a wanker...He gave us salvation through Christ. And that is the ultimate form of non-wankerness.

 

[Hakeem]

So he puts a bunch of humans doomed to become immoral into his world.
That's exactly the morality it takes for humans to pit animals each other to the death in an arena ring.
No offense to the big guy, but he sounds like a real wanker to me :\

So you understand God's nature? Just because he created us doesn't mean we are like him.

 

[Gilles]

If there is a god, and that god damned you to eternal suffering for not believing him, I'd actually feel good not being on such a tard's side.

People seem to not understand Catholic teaching. Most Christians think this, but Catholics do not. If you deny God then you would probably go to hell, but if someone lives a very moral good life he can go to heaven. Some even argue that God's love will save everyone in the end. We cannot judge someone. Even you may go to heaven.

Ever read Narnia? The guy in the last book believed in the evil God, and Aslan, the good God, saved him anyways because the man was good. Aslan's said, if you do good in evils name, it is done for good, if you do evil in goods name, then it is done for evil. This is what I believe.

God put us on the earth with free will. We can choose to be evil or not.

 

[donut3.5]

I'm just saying if he put beings as corrupt as humans on the Earth to amuse him, he doesn't sound like the most moral big guy.
And true Ele, if Christ was put on here by him to save humanity, that does make him unwankeryish.
Just a quick pondering that passed through my head: If you learned your wife was impregnated by God, would you be excited or ticked?
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

The fact I prayed, and the fact I changed are one and the same. The cause and the effect.

Simple change did not make me into a Christian. I still sin, and I still feel guilt. But the realization that God loved me so much that he being God would do something to allow me, a sinner, that deserves nothing. To be forgiven. Is a feeling of such completeness. That it is like poetry in comparison to mere words.

So you did not change because of the prayer, but because you thought that the prayer would make you change, and so you changed.

You probably could have changed fine without praying.

Far from a wanker...He gave us salvation through Christ. And that is the ultimate form of non-wankerness.

So he gave the ultimate punishment to... almost everyone instead of everyone?

Even worse, now he's profiling as well =/

Oh, he also got to kill someone in the process =o

 

[Elenai]

@PurplePoot: I was changed by the grace of God, not by my own works or action.

He gives the just punishment to those who deserve it, But he gives us a choice to accept the pardon. Those who accept are pardoned, those who reject it. Are given their just punishment.

And the wages of sin is death. Thats why Christ had to die. But the gift of grace is eternal life.

@Donut: Well....to be honest at least I would know that she was getting it alot better than I could give.....and I would feel sad.

Hahahaha...

But just for the record Mary wasnt married at the time and God didnt have sex with her....(just for the record...but a funny question none the less.)

[probably the last post before I sleep]

 

[Deometris]

They try to understand what God's nature must be in order for him to exist. Then when its illogical, they think they've disproved him

You should actually explain how its illogical, cause you haven't yet, nor has anyone. I also dont care for what's said about god's nature in the bible or other religious text, as that is all very questionable and shouldn't be brought up in an argument.

 

[Gilles]

You should actually explain how its illogical, cause you haven't yet, nor has anyone. I also dont care for what's said about god's nature in the bible or other religious text, as that is all very questionable and shouldn't be brought up in an argument.

Why can't we bring it up? It's the same for any religion, most og them have some sort of "book".

 

[Hakeem]

You should actually explain how its illogical, cause you haven't yet, nor has anyone. I also dont care for what's said about god's nature in the bible or other religious text, as that is all very questionable and shouldn't be brought up in an argument.

I don't think that God existence is illogical. What I'm saying is that some people think they understand what God must be like, and they try to find some illogical contradiction as to why he can't exist.
Nobody knows God's nature.

Why can't we bring it up? It's the same for any religion, most og them have some sort of "book".

Because this is about God's existence and not religion.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

@Elenai: God doesn't help you, S/He helps you help yourself. Even if it was with God's help, your change was mostly by your own power.

@Hakeem: God is plenty illogical, but that doesn't matter because there are plenty of illogical things around that happen to exist.

 

[donut3.5]

I suppose playing into the side I am debating against, but still a valid argument, is that you cannot prove the lack of existence, only existence. No matter how much it is proven God as a being doesn't exist, there's still a small chance he could.
However, there comes a time when you must draw the line at logic. Only, such logical proofs have not been given yet, really, and it will be difficult to give them. I have a feeling, however, with how much religion has been destroyed against science (note to Hakeem, I am not saying ALL religions), within the next millennium, if humans exist this long, God will either be proven or dis proven. And to say that is impossible, to disprove God, is exactly like my statement above, you can't disprove something, although at some point you will have to draw the line.
It is fairly commonly accepted that there are not Gods perched atop Mt. Olympus, for example. Who knows what will happen?
--donut3.5--

 

[PurplePoot]

[09:05:52]

Zeus smites donut3.5

I basically agree with donut, but I lean stronger on the evidence we have to make god a bit more unlikely.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Empirically, there is little reason to believe in God. Logically, there are plenty of arguments for God, although many of them may not put any special importance on the metaphorical shoulders of God.

 

[donut3.5]

[09:05:52]

Zeus smites donut3.5

Haha win. Although I would expect Zeus to be more than a.. peon of the Hive.
--donut3.5--

 

[Craka_J]

rofl Zeus pwnt himself, just by being a Peon. xD
~Craka_J

 

[donut3.5]

If I only had chat room moderation privileges, I could give that bugger a 0 second ban for smiting me!
((Poot knows what a 0 second ban does ^ ^))
--donut3.5--

 

[Deometris]

I don't think that God existence is illogical.

Thats why I also said "nor has anyone else", but yeah I did direct at you too much, didn't really mean to.

What I'm saying is that some people think they understand what God must be like, and they try to find some illogical contradiction as to why he can't exist.

I haven't seen anyone say that, but I didn't read through this entire thread either I guess.

"God is only good and since life has evil in it, he must not exist", thats the only argument I can see someone using, or one to that extent.. But if people are going to assume something about his nature, and thier not basing it on religious text as you already said they aren't, they should obviously look at his creations, so how they would even come to the conclusion that god is good and then say his creations are evil...Doesn't make sense at all to say God is illogical unless your being illogical yourself and assuming things with nothing to back them up.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

God is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. Why does evil exist when God is good, knows about the evil, and could stop the evil?

That's a plausible argument against God. Also, there is no empirical evidence that could imply God's existence, although there is also none that would imply the absence of a God. Those are usually the most frequent arguments against God.

 

[Deometris]

God is all-good. Why does evil exist when God is good, knows about the evil, and could stop the evil?

My point is, how would you even come to that conclusion about his nature in the first place? Its illogical.. Nothing to back it up..

 

[Teh_Ephy]

That's just an argument against the God of the big three monotheistic religions. Most logical arguments for God really tell nothing about Her/His nature, and could define the God of any monotheistic religion.

Anyways, as I've said earlier, the lack of empirical evidence is why most people don't believe in God.

 

[Deometris]

That's just an argument against the God of the big three monotheistic religions. Most logical arguments for God really tell nothing about Her/His nature, and could define the God of any monotheistic religion.

Yeah.. What I'm saying is, if you were to disregard whats said in religious text, the only way you could derive something about god's nature is by looking at his creations, so how could you say his creations are evil but he is not? That type of argument just contradicts itself.

The only way you could say God's nature MUST be something is by looking at his creations, and the only way you could find someting illogical about his existence is by looking at his creations.. And that's not going to lead you to the conclusion his existence is illogical, it will just mean he's similar to his creations. I think its not possible to find something illogical about him unless your going off religious text.

 

[Hakeem]

Unnecessary

note to Hakeem, I am not saying ALL religions

I would have responded if you hadn't said that.

within the next millennium

I'm sure someone said the same thing millennia ago.
I don't think that there is anything very illogical about God that would make it common for everybody to dismiss it as very, very, unlikely.
Personally, I think it makes perfect sense for God to exist, and it becomes impossible for anything to exist if you throw God out of the equation.

And If you want to debate that we are at a much greater point in development than any other civilization has been before, then I suggest it's taken to a new thread.

 

[donut3.5]

I'm sure someone said the same thing millennia ago.

2 and a half millenniums ago, Zeus was thought to exist.
Now he is commonly believed to be nonexistent, except when smiting me in chatrooms.
--donut3.5--

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I don't think that there is anything very illogical about God that would make it common for everybody to dismiss it as very, very, unlikely.
Personally, I think it makes perfect sense for God to exist, and it becomes impossible for anything to exist if you throw God out of the equation.

If time isn't circular, there is absolutely no way that God can't exist, but something about Her/Him still strikes me as illogical. I'll let you know when I can stick my finger on it. Also, please not that illogical does not mean highly improbable.

@donut3.5: Christianity will never ever die. There exists an entire city devoted to Christianity; the Vatican. No matter how comparatively powerless it becomes, Christianity will exist until somebody eradicates the Vatican.

 

[donut3.5]

Sigh.. I hate to go back to Ancient Greece again, but there were cities devoted to Gods. Athens, for instance, although I don't think a single Athenian today goes to the statues of Athena every day to pray.
--donut3.5--

 

[Hakeem]

2 and a half millenniums ago, Zeus was thought to exist.
Now he is commonly believed to be nonexistent, except when smiting me in chatrooms.

That's because that religion is pretty much gone.

Teh_Ephy, I can't see a way for time to be circular without the entirety of it being a creation.

 

[Deometris]

I personally think a PROBABLE outcome will be all of religion dying out the more significance science has in our life.

Also to clarify my other point. I was arguing that the nature of God didnt have relevence to this thread, and I mentioned that religious text also didnt have relevence since thier highly questionable, and Hakeem said people could deduce what his nature MUST be, and come to the conclusion his existence is illogical. But they couldn't come to that conclusion unless thier basing thier idea of his nature off religious text, and as already stated those shouldn't have relevence.My point is actually quite clear.

 

[Hakeem]

cheeder no offense but its seems you are too dogmatic, in your rambling you have not brought up a single tenable argument. And as the last user most intelligently stated, your using circular reasoning which in reality does not work, but in some people's minds do.....(ahem*)

No offense at all, but i am a strict believer in god, but i am also skeptical over how you can prove his existence with our limited human minds...

I didn't notice until just now, post 666!

I personally think a PROBABLE outcome will be all of religion dying out the more significant science has in our life.

Many religions do not contradict science. (Whoa, I just came really close to advertising my religion with recent science.)

Also to clarify my other point. I was arguing that the nature of God didnt have relevence to this thread, and I mentioned that religious text also didnt have relevence since thier highly questionable, and Hakeem gave me the impression people could deduce something about his nature through other means and then come to the conclusion his existence is illogical. My point is actually quite clear.

I was saying that... I forget.
/me goes back and checks
Oh! I was saying why some people bring God's nature into this debate.
Hopefully it's now clear to everyone that God's nature is not a means to prove or disprove him.

 

[Tobbzn]

But; Would the religions have been there today if nobody had written about them?

 

[PurplePoot]

Sigh.. I hate to go back to Ancient Greece again, but there were cities devoted to Gods. Athens, for instance, although I don't think a single Athenian today goes to the statues of Athena every day to pray.

Delphi too!

[09:05:52]

Zeus is evolving!

[09:05:54]

Zeus is evolving!

[09:05:55]

Zeus is evolving!

[09:05:58]

Zeus is evolving!

[09:06:03]

Zeus smites donut3.5!

Zeus could've gone to a TC, but TCs are lame. We all know shamans can pwn them with their lightning bolts ;p

 

[Teh_Ephy]

@donut3.5: The Vatican is not only a city, but an organization. Also, Athens was not a city devoted to Athena, just named after her. The story is that Poseidon and Athena were having some war or something over the name of the city. Athena promised to protect the city from whatever Poseidon would do to it if they named it after her as opposed to him, so the city became Athens.

@Hakeem: Think about a circle for a second. No start, no stop. The status quo is just established, period. Also, I didn't say that a circular universe must not involve a God. It's possible that if time is circular, it is God that keeps it so. Just because A must be true if B is true does not mean A must be false is C is true.

 

[Elenai]

Sorry if I am dragging up old posts.

@Elenai: God doesn't help you, S/He helps you help yourself. Even if it was with God's help, your change was mostly by your own power.

Just a heads up. I think that since this is my own life and experiences. I think I would know if it was God that caused my change. It was definately not by most of my power.....

But why is it that because Christianity defies evolution, and the BigBang...that we are automatically against science? Two theories in a box of HUNDREDS that make up the Scientific conglomerate....Seems like its unreasonable to think that we are against science when we support medical health advancements, agriculture advancements, advancement in technology in general, advancements in genetics, and all sorts of things.

Just because God allows evil to exist does not mean he is not good. He allows evil to exist, because if he did not it would interfere with free will. And he allows evil to exist, so that he can help us overcome it and show us that he loves us as free beings....not automotons.

Christianity will live on and stand the test of time. Voltair once boasted that 100 years after his death in 1728 that the Bible (the cornerstone of the faith) would be gone from the face of the Earth...it has survived.

And as I said before, as long as the word exists, Christianity will exist with it.

And any omniverse with a circular time line, would have no effect on the existence of God Hakeem. Just as Teh-Ephy said above.

 

[Hakeem]

Think about a circle for a second. No start, no stop. The status quo is just established, period.

I understand the concept of circular time.
But why does our version of time exist instead of one of the other infinite possibilities?

 

[PurplePoot]

Btw, here's a great cartoon that illustrates my view on 'Free Will'.

 

[Gilles]

You deny free will? I don't see how people can. We don't have perfect control of ourselves of course. There is addiction, previous experience, pressure, ect. But in the end the decision is ours.

 

[Deometris]

And he allows evil to exist, so that he can help us overcome it and show us that he loves us as free beings....not automotons.

Should it be considered evil then?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

You deny free will? I don't see how people can. We don't have perfect control of ourselves of course. There is addiction, previous experience, pressure, ect. But in the end the decision is ours.

Because time, at least to our knowledge, is but a single line, straight or not. Things are simply destined to happen, and you are destined to react in a certain way towards that event. Let me use an example, such as flipping a coin. It's not really a 50/50 chance of landing on one side or the other, because if you go through that exact coin flipping (same time, same action, down to the very atom) it would be exactly the same. How strongly you flip it, the ongoings of the air it passes though, etc. lead up to one and only one side facing up.

And he allows evil to exist, so that he can help us overcome it and show us that he loves us as free beings....not automotons.

Let us suffer so that when we don't, he looks good... what an pompous bastard.

 

[Tobbzn]

Sorry if I am dragging up old posts.



Just a heads up. I think that since this is my own life and experiences. I think I would know if it was God that caused my change. It was definately not by most of my power.....

But why is it that because Christianity defies evolution, and the BigBang...that we are automatically against science? Two theories in a box of HUNDREDS that make up the Scientific conglomerate....Seems like its unreasonable to think that we are against science when we support medical health advancements, agriculture advancements, advancement in technology in general, advancements in genetics, and all sorts of things.

Just because God allows evil to exist does not mean he is not good. He allows evil to exist, because if he did not it would interfere with free will. And he allows evil to exist, so that he can help us overcome it and show us that he loves us as free beings....not automotons.

Christianity will live on and stand the test of time. Voltair once boasted that 100 years after his death in 1728 that the Bible (the cornerstone of the faith) would be gone from the face of the Earth...it has survived.

And as I said before, as long as the word exists, Christianity will exist with it.

And any omniverse with a circular time line, would have no effect on the existence of God Hakeem. Just as Teh-Ephy said above.

Just like there are atheists that don't believe in the big bang, there are christians who do.

Also, I thought the pope and the protestant church were both against genetics, because it was "Changing creation"?

 

[<Offspring>]

I don't know simply. If he exists where is he then? If he doesn't exist the people of the past are dumb***es.
*cough* Ha ha *cough*

 

[Elenai]

Genetics research when used to help cure things like Cancer....and other sicknesses.

And the BigBang was an example.

And calling God a pompous bastard and ect......Is just wrong. Thats like calling Mother Tereasa a whore.

 

[Tobbzn]

Would you get angry if I said Luther had some problems spending his spare time?

 

[Elenai]

......I suppose not.

 

[PurplePoot]

You deny free will? I don't see how people can. We don't have perfect control of ourselves of course. There is addiction, previous experience, pressure, ect. But in the end the decision is ours.

And since when did I ever say that?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Just a heads up. I think that since this is my own life and experiences. I think I would know if it was God that caused my change. It was definately not by most of my power.....

God may have pushed you in the right direction, but if you didn't do the grunt work nothing would have changed. It only seems like God did the majority of it because it's always the first step that seems the biggest.

But why is it that because Christianity defies evolution, and the BigBang...that we are automatically against science? Two theories in a box of HUNDREDS that make up the Scientific conglomerate....Seems like its unreasonable to think that we are against science when we support medical health advancements, agriculture advancements, advancement in technology in general, advancements in genetics, and all sorts of things.

Last time I checked, Christianity as a greater whole neither denies nor supports evolution and the big bang.

Just because God allows evil to exist does not mean he is not good. He allows evil to exist, because if he did not it would interfere with free will. And he allows evil to exist, so that he can help us overcome it and show us that he loves us as free beings....not automotons.

Something else on free will, God gives you free will, even if S/He knows full well how you will spend it.

Christianity will live on and stand the test of time. Voltair once boasted that 100 years after his death in 1728 that the Bible (the cornerstone of the faith) would be gone from the face of the Earth...it has survived.

It's just too big to ever become just another chapter in a history book (or an independent history book). And there are plenty of people that keep it alive, for better or worse.

And as I said before, as long as the word exists, Christianity will exist with it.

And any omniverse with a circular time line, would have no effect on the existence of God Hakeem. Just as Teh-Ephy said above.

Facts.

I don't know simply. If he exists where is he then? If he doesn't exist the people of the past are dumb***es.
*cough* Ha ha *cough*

Yes, because being technologically underprivileged is totally the only deciding factor of intelligence. Most gods are created to explain the world, when there was no way of deriving any other explanation. You should really just shut the fuck up.

Hmm, good bye page 50.