Is Logic Real?

[MySpaceBarBroke]

i consider logic as it is used in electronics, or logic gates. it basically is a decision based on preset rules to give a certain result. this can be used to ask a question which will result in a logical outcome. this works in real terms as the rules we associate with our environment are rules we have picked up by experience in life. for example if we want to go somewhere we logically know the quickest route is a straight line; but this may not be possible over a mountain so we go around it. the rules are straight line and not being able to go over mountains, but one defeats the other to result in a correct and logical outcome. this may not be a great example but the meaning is the same, logic is simply a decision based on preset rules.

so, it's like drawing a conclusion from the given conditions? like the scientific method?

 

[GST_Nemisis]

yes thats exactly it

 

[Hakeem]

You use more logic to form a hypothesis than to draw a conclusion.

Evolution of emotion:
Most mothers in nature have evolved to be very protective, because protective mothers have more children.
Most animals don't care about each other, we were once the same. Evolution of care for each other helped us survive longer and have more children. This doesn't happen in other animals because their brains are smaller.

 

[Shados]

But think about it. If there was no God saying good or bad, and people weren't born with knowledge of good or bad, the only thing one might consider good is self benefit, and we would therefore have to live in a materialistic world. We'd still have to have a God to tell us what is good or bad, or be born with such knowledge, or we'd otherwise never actually sacrifice things for the betterment of others. Why would we help a person knowing he probably won't help us back? It's because it feels good to do so. But why does it feel good to do so? And what gave us the idea to help others in such a way in the first place? There has to be some source of morality that drives us to do so. We could not have done this ourselves. You say that humanity is likely to be repulsed by what is considered "evil", but why would they consider that evil? In most cases, it is because they hurt others, like rape or murder. But unless it happened to you, why would you care? Why would you call a rapist or a murderer sick? They didn't rape you. They didn't kill you. Why do you have sympathy? If you say because the rest of society educates you of sympathy, how did they get their sympathy? Their ancient ancestors must also have had sympathy. But where did they get it from? Why did it feel good to help others? There has to be a source of our love for the fellow man, be it god, or our brain.

Pardon the ridiculously long paragraph.

MSBB, you seem to be reading what I am writing, but you're not getting it at all. I already said where society's perception of good and evil comes from, it comes from survival of the fittest, evolution. I say this because humankind as a species is more likely to survive if they work together, and do things along the lines of what we currently consider 'good'. Criminals and people who rape/kill/hurt others lower the number of humans, and therefore our chance of survival as a whole, so we see them as 'bad'.

As for sympathy, I heard something about human beings having 'mirror neurons', which allow us to directly empathise with what others are feeling by copying their neuronal patterns, to a lesser degree. There's some biological/genetic backing, if you don't beleive evolution is sufficient to produce empathy/sympathy


-*meow*

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

MSBB, you seem to be reading what I am writing, but you're not getting it at all. I already said where society's perception of good and evil comes from, it comes from survival of the fittest, evolution. I say this because humankind as a species is more likely to survive if they work together, and do things along the lines of what we currently consider 'good'. Criminals and people who rape/kill/hurt others lower the number of humans, and therefore our chance of survival as a whole, so we see them as 'bad'.

As for sympathy, I heard something about human beings having 'mirror neurons', which allow us to directly empathise with what others are feeling by copying their neuronal patterns, to a lesser degree. There's some biological/genetic backing, if you don't beleive evolution is sufficient to produce empathy/sympathy


-*meow*

The materialism I got. One reason we help others is because they might benefit us in the future, yeah. The neural whatsit part was what I was getting at, though. People must have been born with empathy or some other person-to-person compassion to some degree to feel good about helping the less fortunate without expecting anything in return. Problem solved. Morality has been uncovered to a satisfiable degree.

 

[Shados]

The materialism I got. One reason we help others is because they might benefit us in the future, yeah. The neural whatsit part was what I was getting at, though. People must have been born with empathy or some other person-to-person compassion to some degree to feel good about helping the less fortunate without expecting anything in return. Problem solved. Morality has been uncovered to a satisfiable degree.

Not really. Having the ability to feel what others are feeling does not neccesarily mean we will move to help them. It may even make some people wish to harm them.


-*meow*

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Not really. Having the ability to feel what others are feeling does not neccesarily mean we will move to help them. It may even make some people wish to harm them.


-*meow*

But as long as there is an exterior motive beyond materialism, there is something from which morality can stem from and grow.

 

[Sesshoku_sendo]

Of course logic exists at least in this realm or universe or whatever you want to call it. Everyone has a sort of logic or more commonly called common sense Some people have it in different feilds sch as science or on the street logic does exist or we would be no more than cave men

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Common sense != logic.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Common sense != logic.

indeed it isn't

 

[Shados]

Common sense is related more to wisdom, logic is related more to intelligence. Note I say 'related to', not 'is'.


-*meow*

 

[Sesshoku_sendo]

I think that Common sese has more to do with logic than you think I'm not gonna act like I know more than you on this subject because I dont know if I do or not but I still believe that logic has to do with common sense. But I also think that it has to do with intelegence because You cant have common sense with no inteligence (I know I can't spell)

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I think that Common sese has more to do with logic than you think I'm not gonna act like I know more than you on this subject because I dont know if I do or not but I still believe that logic has to do with common sense. But I also think that it has to do with intelegence because You cant have common sense with no inteligence (I know I can't spell)

You know what I love about intelligent debate? People always back up their statements. It's not just a bunch of blindly unsupported beliefs.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I think that Common sese has more to do with logic than you think I'm not gonna act like I know more than you on this subject because I dont know if I do or not but I still believe that logic has to do with common sense.

Uh... Logic can be based on common sense, but that's about it.

But I also think that it has to do with intelegence because You cant have common sense with no inteligence (I know I can't spell)

Common sense and intelligence are two wholly separate things. Any of my friends IRL would tell you that I'm pretty damn smart, but I have the common sense of a stereotypical dumb blonde. Well okay, not that bad, but you don't need to be smart to have common sense, and you don't need common sense to be smart.

 

[Daelin]

Too long thread for me to read... Yet I'm going to get into the whole god-religion stuff. Until not that recently (let's say 3 years) I used to believe in the church, and in its will. However, then I read some interesting facts, which include burning mental-ill women by the supposition that they were witches, inventing concepts such as miraculous religious paintings or just miracles (in order to attract the non-believers who were much easier to convince back in the past) and in the case of the catholic church, inventing the purgatory (in order for it to keep its good relationship with the merchants - temporary petience followed by forgiveness). Not to mention that in the church's position, I am a moral abjection, fighting against the normal laws of nature. And people start wondering why I won't submit to the church's law. Thank god it's starting to lose its power over population nowadays.

As for beliving in god... you need to believe in god in order to believe in the power of church. But you don't need to believe in the church in order to be a god-believer (deist!). And I also used to believe in god until I had a revelation based on a phrase I was taught at religion "God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end [...] This world needed a creator, it couldn't have just popped out of nothing". And then it just struck me... God is just a feeble attempt of explaining the creation of the world, all the bad and good things happening into our life, and over all, our purpose... It is simpler to say that the World is not an eternal element, yet it was created by an eternal being. Rrrright... and I'm Mona Lisa. I see it's more logical to assume that the World itself is eternal, or that something else might've existed before the material world, as we know it (composed out of matter, particles, with the current laws of physics etc.).

Also, there is the possibility that the universe is a cycle. It is known that dark matter is accumulating. Everything will in the end be pulled into a grand black hole. What happens then? Probably an explosion similar to the Big Bang. Not demonstrated, highly improbable, but hey, it's much more logical to me than the whole God-thing.

We try to explain everything by our current standards and limitations, but things are not so simple. There are other stuff in this world than ration, senses, logic, intelligence, bravery, hope, and any other feeling a human being may possess... Hell, there are most likely other forms of dynamic than just "life" as we know it. I believe that the simple existance of the anti-matter which we can barely detect with our current senses, or even the simple X-rays which seemed inexistant to us until technology came into the scene and helped us demonstrate their existance and detect them properly, clearly shows how limited we are.

Blasphemies, outrageous words? These are my current thoughts... take them or leave them. You may say that I'm limited by thinking like this, but I don't really care. Cheers!

Edit: Oh yeah, and back to topic, of course logic is real. But come to think of it, what is reality? Is it the product of our senses in combination with the chemical and electrical processes taking place in our brain? In my opinion yeah, logic is real.

-Mihai

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Also, there is the possibility that the universe is a cycle. It is known that dark matter is accumulating. Everything will in the end be pulled into a grand black hole. What happens then? Probably an explosion similar to the Big Bang. Not demonstrated, highly improbable, but hey, it's much more logical to me than the whole God-thing.

.... Black holes are not massive sources of infinite gravity. They only have enormous gravitational pull at small (relatively) proximities. If the sun magically went from its current state to a black hole (without the super nova part, and pretending that it has enough mass to) all the planets would stay in their orbits.

If you mean that it's going to be a black hole when it all crunches together... whatever. Anyways, for some strange reason dark matter is actually accelerating our percieved expansion of the universe.

 

[Daminon]

People don't see the church as a big chrisitan thing too much. It has made up alot of bullshit that few believers what I think really believed in. The old times church were there mostly for power it seemed. Just think of the "forgivness of sins" that people were forced to bye from the priests at some time. It's all bullshit. Today however churches has changed. Still there are some power hungry ones.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

People don't see the church as a big chrisitan thing too much. It has made up alot of bullshit that few believers what I think really believed in. The old times church were there mostly for power it seemed. Just think of the "forgivness of sins" that people were forced to bye from the priests at some time. It's all bullshit. Today however churches has changed. Still there are some power hungry ones.

And this relates to the topic at hand how?

 

[Sesshoku_sendo]

for once I agree with myspacebarbroke

 

[Cool Joe Smith]

logic is what the masses see as right(correct), and a non logical what defies the masses... so is logic realy logical or illogical?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

logic is what the masses see as right(correct), and a non logical what defies the masses... so is logic realy logical or illogical?

You contradicted yourself. Why? Because that was an incorrect definition of logic. That was a definition of common sense. Logic is, as GST said, simply the process of the scientific method, which means the conclusions we draw from facts and the validity of them.

 

[Aspharatos]

Well, logic is pretty universal. For example, If I gave you the following problem to solve:

There are two people in one room. There is also one hat in this room. One of the people in the room puts on the hat. How many people in the room are wearing a hat?

The above is a very stupid problem. Most normal people could figure it out as soon as they had read it. But how did you figure it out? By using logic. It is logically impossible for more than one person in the room to be wearing a hat. Now this is according to our laws of physics and whatnot. In other universes, there may be a different set of logical rules.

well thats unless the hat was really long lol

 

[Sesshoku_sendo]

No the hat must be wide!! lol

 

[Teh_Ephy]

That's been brought up before, just so the two of you know. Its counter was that most hats are normal sized.

 

[Hakeem]

Daelin:
Not all religions have dynamic morals. Many religions are very different from Christianity.

God is not an excuse to purpose and existence. Think about it. Keyword: Think.
We think (Well, I do anyway). We feel and see. It's more than just electrical impulses traveling through our brain cells. We are beings. We don't just react. There is something that makes us, well, us. Either we are consciousness in an experiment, or there is a god that created us. Something, created me because I know I couldn't have done it. If I had I would remember it.

Basically:
"I think therefore I am." But, I didn't create me, therefore I am a creation. But then, if I was created, was my logic created, too? Is my logic real? Do I even exist if the only thing that tells me I exist is a creation and is only supported by itself?

Someone not smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" might question their existence.
When you get smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" you have no doubt.
And now it has come to this level.

Are you still sure you exist?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

God is not an excuse to purpose and existence. Think about it. Keyword: Think.
We think (Well, I do anyway). We feel and see. It's more than just electrical impulses traveling through our brain cells. We are beings. We don't just react. There is something that makes us, well, us. Either we are consciousness in an experiment, or there is a god that created us. Something, created me because I know I couldn't have done it. If I had I would remember it.

Wrong. The mind is nothing more than electrical impulses amongst a brain. Any other component to the mind is completely hypothetical. Furthermore, memory is imperfect. I can't remember past a few miniscule things when I was three years old.

Basically:
"I think therefore I am." But, I didn't create me, therefore I am a creation. But then, if I was created, was my logic created, too? Is my logic real? Do I even exist if the only thing that tells me I exist is a creation and is only supported by itself?

Please do not butcher my favorite philosophy. Cogito ergo sum does nothing more than prove I exist. For all I know, I could have existed forever, but do not remember it. My entire life could have all been mere tricks on my five senses. My memory is imperfect as well. No one can be certain they are a creation, when it comes to "I think, therefore I am".

Someone not smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" might question their existence.

Indeed.

When you get smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" you have no doubt.
And now it has come to this level.

Are you still sure you exist?

What the hell? You say the Cogito theory puts in cement that I exist, then you suddenly question my existence?

 

[Hakeem]

Wrong. The mind is nothing more than electrical impulses amongst a brain. Any other component to the mind is completely hypothetical. Furthermore, memory is imperfect. I can't remember past a few miniscule things when I was three years old.

No it's not. My feeling is not hypothetical. I know it's real. I've felt it. I didn't just react to it.

I think I would remember being God.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

No it's not. My feeling is not hypothetical. I know it's real. I've felt it. I didn't just react to it.

I think I would remember being God.

God, like all entities, is a hypothetical entity that, as of now, has not been scientifically proven, and therefore cannot be assumed to be true without scientific evidence of existence. Your feelings don't win trials.

 

[Hakeem]

I know I feel more than most things. I didn't scientifically prove it, I logically proved it. (As much as I can with logic.)

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I know I feel more than most things. I didn't scientifically prove it, I logically proved it. (As much as I can with logic.)

I'm waiting for your "logical proof"

 

[Hakeem]

I think and I did not create myself, therefore I am a creation.
While you may not trust your earthly memories, if you were the only consciousness and you were all that existed, then you would be god and you would remember it.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I think and I did not create myself, therefore I am a creation.
While you may not trust your earthly memories, if you were the only consciousness and you were all that existed, then you would be god and you would remember it.

I do not know whether you exist or not, but I think, and I know my memory is imperfect. I therefore could have existed forever, but forgot all about it, seeing as I can only remember a few vague memories of when I was supposedly three years old. Furthermore, you could have been created by something else, say, your mother, maybe?

 

[Hakeem]

My mother didn't create my, I guess I can't think of any other word: soul.
Something created me (if I am not god) while I was in my mother. My mother just had sex.

Either I am god or god made me. Is there any other option?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

My mother didn't create my, I guess I can't think of any other word: soul.
Something created me (if I am not god) while I was in my mother. My mother just had sex.

Either I am god or god made me. Is there any other option?

yes, there is. Your soul is yet another hypothetical entity that has been neither scientifically nor logically proven to exist. Next, please.

 

[Hakeem]

Well, how do I feel and see and think?
My brain only explains how I react. There is something beyond my neurons. You can't in all the cosmos tell me why I feel. You can tell me what causes the neuron paths to be used, and why I react, but you cannot tell me why I experience it.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Well, how do I feel and see and think?
My brain only explains how I react. There is something beyond my neurons. You can't in all the cosmos tell me why I feel. You can tell me what causes the neuron paths to be used, and why I react, but you cannot tell me why I experience it.

Oh boy... I am not a major in the study of human bodies, but I can tell you right now that your nerves direct electric impulses to your brain, of which processes it and therefore you feel. Furthermore, even if it doesn't explain the mind's efficiency, that was not an argument for souls, that was an argument against the brain. You haven't provided valid argument as to why, if there is an unknown component involved in the workings of the mind, is my guess not as good as yours. For all we know, there could be tiny munchkins smaller than atoms working in our brains that fulfill the rest of the minds functions, if there is a "rest".

 

[Hakeem]

Normally, I wouldn't jump to the supernatural, (the door moved! Ghosts! ... or wind) but, there is nothing in the brain that makes me, experience touch, sight, sound, taste, or thought. It's just a chemical reaction in this universe, I think the is something in all of us that goes beyond this universe, that science will never explain. It seems to me that there is no other way for thought to exist without god.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Normally, I wouldn't jump to the supernatural, (the door moved! Ghosts! ... or wind) but, there is nothing in the brain that makes me, experience touch, sight, sound, taste, or thought. It's just a chemical reaction in this universe, I think the is something in all of us that goes beyond this universe, that science will never explain. It seems to me that there is no other way for thought to exist without god.

I think wikipedia calls this "weasel words". Indeed, you still haven't the proof that not everything in the minds workings is physical, and it still isn't a stable link to the existence of god.

 

[Daelin]

Daelin:
Not all religions have dynamic morals. Many religions are very different from Christianity.

Yet Christianity remains one of the most expanded religions.

God is not an excuse to purpose and existence. Think about it. Keyword: Think.

Which involves a serie of complex chemical reactions and electrical impulses.

We think (Well, I do anyway). We feel and see. It's more than just electrical impulses traveling through our brain cells.

Yes, it's actually an extremely complex system that has required a long evolution, and which is too complicated at this point to be fully comprehended by... itself.

We are beings. We don't just react. There is something that makes us, well, us. Either we are consciousness in an experiment, or there is a god that created us.

Or it was actually nature's will. Define nature however you want it... universe, everything that exists, material world, wurever...

Something, created me because I know I couldn't have done it. If I had I would remember it.

I never implied self-creation of yourself as an individual. In truth, evolution of the universe is far too complex for a small being like us to comprehend. And in the end, what does this whole comprehension bring us? They bring personal satisfaction, but nothing more.

"I think therefore I am." But, I didn't create me, therefore I am a creation. It is But then, if I was created, was my logic created, too? Is my logic real? Do I even exist if the only thing that tells me I exist is a creation and is only supported by itself?

Nice words... too bad they are the words of yet another human. Limited... like always, it is simply impossible to overcome our limitations. True we can use "technology" and pass information further to future generations, but they are just "tools" capable of increasing our possibilities.

Someone not smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" might question their existence.

Yet what is existance itself, and what is it's purpose? Why were we born here? What if we had never existed? Was there anything for us before we were born? And if not, why should there be something once we die? Simple questions, as we can formulate them, but we are uncapable of answering.

When you get smart enough to think of "I think therefore I am" you have no doubt.

No doubt that you just exist? Wow, very neat. Now, why do you actually exist? Just for the sakeof existing?!

Are you still sure you exist?

Of course you exist, atleast that's your truth. Truth is relative, as nothing is just 100% right. Truth is perception and nothing else. So yeah, in my eyes, I do exist!

-Mihai

 

[FuryOfASquirrel]

wow XD

A stable link to god? The Holy Spirit
The spirit that christ left within us move within me when God calls on me to do something, it's like a huge burst of feeling towards one specific action, standing up and professing my heart to christ was one instance i felt this, and another is a leadership group in my own church.

Explain that feeling, it can't just be all electrical impulses happening because of evolution that the big bang started, and aparently top scientists think that happened on accident, no, the big bang, since there seems to be proof that it happened, i say started from God How else do you explain creation with "logic"

Logic is simply the way our brain is, as said before anything with a brain has logical thinking, even instincts can be considered into the greater group Logic.
You have to understand that logic is a HUGE group, containing thinking creatures with brains, instincts, rational thinking, reasoning, relative thinking, analyitcal thinking, it's all PART of logic! Part to Whole comparisions

Our logic is limited, god's logic is infinite.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

wow XD

Indeed.

A stable link to god? The Holy Spirit

Link to the existence of god based on the existence of exterior sources that function the mind? Not a chance.

The spirit that christ left within us move within me when God calls on me to do something, it's like a huge burst of feeling towards one specific action, standing up and professing my heart to christ was one instance i felt this, and another is a leadership group in my own church.

I'm not exactly sure of the term, but I think they call it "emotion".

Explain that feeling, it can't just be all electrical impulses happening because of evolution that the big bang started, and aparently top scientists think that happened on accident, no, the big bang, since there seems to be proof that it happened, i say started from God How else do you explain creation with "logic"

You said it. Feeling. Electrical impulses and chemical reactions in your body. If you say God created the Big Bang, that would disprove the fact that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Because the Big Bang also created life and therefore started the process of evolution, that would disprove adam and eve, as well. Sounds more like the words of a freethinker than a christian.

Logic is simply the way our brain is, as said before anything with a brain has logical thinking, even instincts can be considered into the greater group Logic.
You have to understand that logic is a HUGE group, containing thinking creatures with brains, instincts, rational thinking, reasoning, relative thinking, analyitcal thinking, it's all PART of logic! Part to Whole comparisions

Logic is NOT how our brain works... it's the methods we use to draw conclusions from facts, or analyze the validity of such conclusions... it's the scientific method, something religion doesn't utilize.

Our logic is limited, god's logic is infinite.

Our logic isn't limited. There is only one logic, and that is the logic that runs the universe. What's limited is our understanding of it.

 

[FuryOfASquirrel]

ok mr. i think im a freethinker -.-

Why can't the evolutionists and christians just get along -.- come up with a plan, maybe the big bang started it all, ok, god did that, but the world, he could've spent the 6 days making Earth, it is in the perfect place for life afterall

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

ok mr. i think im a freethinker -.-

Why can't the evolutionists and christians just get along -.- come up with a plan, maybe the big bang started it all, ok, god did that, but the world, he could've spent the 6 days making Earth, it is in the perfect place for life afterall

Why don't murderers and cops get along, skip all the trials, and just give him half a death sentence..? Because that won't uncover the truth about shit. Scientific method utilizes doing experiments, seeing the facts, and drawing conclusions from it. The religious method utilizes having the conclusion, then looking for facts to support it. It's not the way we find the truth.

 

[FuryOfASquirrel]

And what truth is that?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

And what truth is that?

That's what the scientific method is for. Finding out the truth. The Human Race may never know everything, but if we keep trying, it beats the hell out of "God did it."

 

[Elenai]

Spacebar I have stayed out of this thread for long enough.

We dont constantly try to say God did it, Many of us try to figure out how.

DO NOT compare religion and science to be murderers and cops.

And second of all science and religion can get along.

And not too mention that Science is man's way of explaining things and usually that means it is flawed and thus is never entirely true.

Science often claims to have the conclusion and tries to find facts to support it.

And the very being of SCIENCE owes Religion its very existence.
Modern Science was built on the back of the church and was kept alive by it.

With out the church thousands of ancient documents about Roman and Greek and eastern science would be lost and we would have lost hundreds of years of scientific development.

Science also owes the Muslim and Jewish religions its existence. Algebra and High mathematics the very basis of scientific data came from the muslims. And the Jews gave us History of which without science would not know were to look for answers.

And much of the bible supports science and scientific things. Scientists dont want to admit that God exists because God tells them that they are living their lives in sin and people dont like to be told they are living in sin.

 

[FuryOfASquirrel]

XD

 

[LordDz]

Have you ever tried to hold yourself up in the air?.

A bit offtopic but.. I can hold myself into the air with just my hands and the ground

 

[FuryOfASquirrel]

sweet

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Spacebar I have stayed out of this thread for long enough.

We dont constantly try to say God did it, Many of us try to figure out how.

But you don't even DARE question the Bible when there's evidence contradicting, do you? No, you say it's just a theory.

DO NOT compare religion and science to be murderers and cops.

I'll use metaphors however I want. As long as the situation is the same.

And second of all science and religion can get along.

Usually, it all boils down to using the scientific method, which religion does not, and is therefore moot in scientific evidence.

And not too mention that Science is man's way of explaining things and usually that means it is flawed and thus is never entirely true.

When I jumped up, I fell down afterwards. Newton seems pretty right to me.

Science often claims to have the conclusion and tries to find facts to support it.

Nope. The scientific method is drawing conclusions from the facts given. That's the definition of the scientific method, of which I believe was drawn from the Renaissance times.

And the very being of SCIENCE owes Religion its very existence.
Modern Science was built on the back of the church and was kept alive by it.

Religions were made, like Greek myths, to explain the unknown. Now that we realize that such things are nonsensical, it's time we've grown out of it.

With out the church thousands of ancient documents about Roman and Greek and eastern science would be lost and we would have lost hundreds of years of scientific development.

Upper statement.

Science also owes the Muslim and Jewish religions its existence. Algebra and High mathematics the very basis of scientific data came from the muslims. And the Jews gave us History of which without science would not know were to look for answers.

Upper statement.

And much of the bible supports science and scientific things. Scientists dont want to admit that God exists because God tells them that they are living their lives in sin and people dont like to be told they are living in sin.

Oh, that's rich. I'm sinful and that's why I don't believe in God. I got to tell that to my "sinful" scientists.