Viking Era Ring with Arabic Inscriptions

[N.Knight]

I was doing some reading on Vikings and came across this article on LiveScience.com

'For Allah' Inscription Found on Viking Era Ring

If anything, this discovery proves that the old world was far more different than we perceive it to be. Apparently, cultural exchange between regional communities was more wide reaching and far ranging than thought. Perhaps, our ancestors were less culturally biased than we are. Yes, you can take that as an allegation, if you find that offensive Nice find I would say.

Edit: Don't give this thread a religion twist, its not meant to be....if you do however, atleast keep it logical

 

[takakenji]

uhh no.. our ancestors where definitely alot more culturally biased than we are today, i think that goes without saying

more likely the viking traded for this ring, as they did trade with middle eastern peoples, and perhaps did not even realize what the inscription meant.

 

[VeljkoM]

Takakenji is right, ancestors were lot more culturally biased, what they lacked compared to us was nationalism.

Even the article when suggesting how vikings got ring was by stealing or kidnapping women that happened to wear the ring. And who is to say they even took it from Arabs, maybe they took it from Khazars during the Varangian expansion in eastern europe. Vikings traveled a lot, in the western europe across France, England and even South Italy/Sicily (another good place to meet arabs in middle ages) and in the east across Russia and Ukraine all the way to Constantinople and even possibly to Greenland. So yeah my mind is kinda not blow by the idea that they brought one arabian ring back home, it fits from what we know about vikings.

 

[N.Knight]

Well, I certainly do not deny both of the above comments have to say but I do not fully agree with them either. Reason being, that 'it seems' the posters have not fully comprehended the article. I am no expert at the subject so I will only quote from the article. Before I do that however, it is important to note that the research on this object was undertaken by "an international team of researchers led by biophysicist Sebastian Wärmländer of Stockholm University." That pretty much 'should' speak for itself. If they found it interesting, the ring must be more than a mere trade bauble or scavenged loot.

Now please take a look at what the article actually has to say.
1. The ring was found in graves at the Viking age trading center of Birka.

2. It was recovered from a grave which indicates it was a female burial dating to about 850 A.D.

3. In the words of Dr. Wärmländer: “It’s the only ring with an Arabic inscription found in Scandinavia. We have a few other Arabic-style rings, but without inscriptions,”. Indicating the importance of the find.

4. Most interestingly, Wärmländer and colleagues noted the ring body is in mint condition. “On this ring the filing marks are still present on the metal surface. This shows the jewel has never been much used, and indicates that it did not have many owners,” Wärmländer said. In other words, the ring did not accidentally end up in Birka after being traded or exchanged between many different people. “Instead, it must have passed from the Islamic silversmith who made it to the woman buried at Birka with few, if any, owners in between,” Wärmländer said.

5.“The mint condition of the ring corroborates ancient tales about direct contacts between Viking Age Scandinavia and the Islamic world,” he said.
Which in other words means, interactions besides trade and warring with each other. Interactions on personal level, like socializing, emotional bonding, giving gifts and all that sort of stuff. Considering the tension in todays society, it might be considered a blasphemous act. From both the sides, that is, Arab and converted Christian Vikings.

I will also add that these are not my views but of those of the scientist mentioned in the article. I do agree with them to some extent but am also open for suggestion.

uhh no.. our ancestors where definitely alot more culturally biased than we are today, i think that goes without saying

While I would love to agree with you but I don't think anything goes without saying. You will require proof before making an infallible statement. While the same can be said for my comment (to which yours is the reply) to some extent, if you will. Although, I did make sure that I inserted the jesting smilie at the end, to mark the non-serious nature of my comment.

 

[VeljkoM]

Now please take a look at what the article actually has to say.
1. The ring was found in graves at the Viking age trading center of Birka.

Yes a trading center, Volga trade route went all the way to Asia minor and in direct contact with caliphate and that was one out of two main trade routs that entered black sea. Thus I keep to my statement that I am not at all shocked that one ring managed to get to Scandinavia.

2. It was recovered from a grave which indicates it was a female burial dating to about 850 A.D.

By that age vikings had enough contact with Arab world and unless I am missing something it isn't that strange for women to be buried with jewelry, that is how we learn about cultures of people who didn't have extensive written records. Not even denying that women was Arab taken to Scandinavia by some way as article mentions.

3. In the words of Dr. Wärmländer: “It’s the only ring with an Arabic inscription found in Scandinavia. We have a few other Arabic-style rings, but without inscriptions,”. Indicating the importance of the find.

I do find it odd. I find it odd that it is the only one. Again not news that Vikings had contacts with Arabian caliphates or nations that were in relations with Arab caliphate.

4. Most interestingly, Wärmländer and colleagues noted the ring body is in mint condition. “On this ring the filing marks are still present on the metal surface. This shows the jewel has never been much used, and indicates that it did not have many owners,” Wärmländer said. In other words, the ring did not accidentally end up in Birka after being traded or exchanged between many different people. “Instead, it must have passed from the Islamic silversmith who made it to the woman buried at Birka with few, if any, owners in between,” Wärmländer said.

How many is "many owners", that alone could matter greatly. Besides you need only at this point buyer husband or Arab bride (or even a slave) taken to Scandinavia. Also how about age of the female when she died or more details about the burial itself. Heck could claim that she was servant sacrificed when her master died (not exactly often practiced by vikings)

5.“The mint condition of the ring corroborates ancient tales about direct contacts between Viking Age Scandinavia and the Islamic world,” he said.
Which in other words means, interactions besides trade and warring with each other. Interactions on personal level, like socializing, emotional bonding, giving gifts and all that sort of stuff. Considering the tension in todays society, it might be considered a blasphemous act. From both the sides, that is, Arab and converted Christian Vikings.

Yeah Volga trade route, again nothing new. As I said even in Sicily vikings meet Arabs by that point. But by no means should interaction be taken that much out of context by claiming that it would mean anything more than trade. Even without any hostility you can not realistically expect on such long distance for two people two form warm relations. Individuals are more likely case but that is it (and considering we are literally dealing with one of the kind ring this is for now the only case). Also I was sure vikings were still pagan in 850 A.D and not Christians.

I will also add that these are not my views but of those of the scientist mentioned in the article. I do agree with them to some extent but am also open for suggestion.

From article:
“Perhaps the woman herself was from the Islamic world, or perhaps a Swedish Viking got the ring, by trade or robbery, while visiting the Islamic Caliphate,”

Article does not claim that vikings and Arabs had warm and friendly contact. They are surprised that they had contact at all which is extremely odd since that isn't new discovery.

Maybe I am just questioning biophysicist trying to do archeologist and historian job. And considering how surprised he seems about idea that one of the most traveled group of people visited caliphate well you can see why I am not exactly confident.

 

[chr2]

I think you're reading too much into this. The fact that you get "Which in other words means, interactions besides trade and warring with each other. Interactions on personal level, like socializing, emotional bonding, giving gifts and all that sort of stuff. Considering the tension in todays society, it might be considered a blasphemous act. From both the sides, that is, Arab and converted Christian Vikings." from the article (and specifically the part you quoted) makes me think you're applying your own optimistic views on what you read. Direct contact only means there has been some kind of physical contact between the two cultures, and could easily mean trade or war. Also, Veljko is right about Vikings, especially the Swedes, not being Christian at that time (not that it has much relevance for the thread).

Also, this:
"Maybe I am just questioning biophysicist trying to do archeologist and historian job."
This is a historical subject. The fact that a scientific article even quotes a biophysicist on historical facts is, frankly, ridiculous. They could've at least found a historian to bring in on the subject. Heck, they could've probably even found a historian specializing in Vikings, 'cause you just know anyone with a degree like that would have nothing better to do.

 

[N.Knight]

I am not going to quote each and every sentence and try to debunk it cause that just causes more confusion. Just understand what the person is trying to say, take the post as a whole and reply, thats what I do.

@VeljkoM....Arabs & Vikings traded, thats an established fact, why are we even going there? I never denied the fact, did I . The ring is apparently important, biophysicist involved or not. Hell, it is the only one of its kind. If anything, it increases its market value much higher than any regular viking era artifacts. About the bio-physics thing, I think it could have been a cross study, historians unearthed the ring and then they took it to the biophysicist to be inspected. Whatever, I never intended to go that far in this topic.

@chr2...Yes I am applying my optimistic views, is there something wrong in having an optimistic worldview? I think not my man. Infact, I find your views very pessimistic. How can you not think beyond trade and war. Vikings and Arabs were Humans too dude. Wherever people congregate for trade, or anything, there is bound to be an exchange of culture, language, food and all things. Some sparks can fly in such close quarters. People are ultimately people beneath the cultural masks they wear. A viking could have fallen for an Arab woman's charm or an Arab man could have fallen for a fiery viking woman, vice versa. I mean why is it so difficult to believe that two people from different cultures could not have exchanged anything beyond material stuff, (like body fluids )?

You know if you ask me, its cool to have a healthy amount of cynicism but you've got to be more open for new ideas. I am not asking you guys to accept anything outright but don't be rigid. Established facts keep getting built upon, especially in a field like history. You may never know what changes a new turn of events can bring about. I keep atleast one window of my mind open to new ideas. I don't ever negate or reject any idea outright, I personally find that counterproductive.

 

[VeljkoM]

@VeljkoM.....

My point is that whole story is inflated out of proportions. Yes it is interesting that it is one of the kind but it doesn't reveal anything we didn't know. The story was still written from biophysicist perspective and from the article I get impression that he had no knowledge of Arab and Viking connections. What I was trying to point out this whole time is that it shouldn't strange at all that one arab ring with writings found a more direct way to Scandinavia. I say what should be strange that there are no others. That is why I kept stating multiple times about Volga Trade route because it isn't considered at all, they had only considered a less direct trade through other nations.

@chr2...

Point was "isolated case" vs "mass cultural exchange". Most simple thing why is it that way is "distance". It just was not at all practical for exchange to happen and traders rarely spent sufficient time home as their occupation doesn't allow it. Look at their world from their perspective. And to be honest we are dealing with middle ages and at an arab society. I am probably biased (hey I didn't get study of arab women in middle ages) but I doubt arab women were that often allowed to interact with foreign traders. Tempted to say she was sold but not in literal sense like a slave.

You know if you ask me, its cool to have a healthy amount of cynicism but you've got to be more open for new ideas. I am not asking you guys to accept anything outright but don't be rigid. Established facts keep getting built upon, especially in a field like history. You may never know what changes a new turn of events can bring about. I keep atleast one window of my mind open to new ideas. I don't ever negate or reject any idea outright, I personally find that counterproductive.

First thing they teach you in historiography is to be always skeptical but of course still need to think logically. Yes History is uncertain science but it isn't that easy or common for established facts to be changed as people think these days (which allows for more problematic things to appear like pseudohistory be it about aliens or nationalistic revisions but that is topic for some other day). And what you are asking is to apply modern way of thinking in time when it can't be applied. Because of one isolated ring you want us consider that vikings were more tolerant than modern men even though we are the ones who have concept of tolerance and acceptance. Also there is that...lack of arabian culture in viking society. I am not trying to be cynical, I am trying to be realistic and despite popular opinion those two aren't same.

By the way Chr2 is a viking.

 

[chr2]

About the bio-physics thing, I think it could have been a cross study, historians unearthed the ring and then they took it to the biophysicist to be inspected. Whatever, I never intended to go that far in this topic.

According to the article the biophysicist and his team came across the ring in a museum exhibition where it was showcased and thusly there's no indication of any form of contact between a historian and the team, and even less so between the team and the archeologists who unearthed it (the only thing a historian unearths is his dusty history books ;P )

@chr2...Yes I am applying my optimistic views, is there something wrong in having an optimistic worldview? I think not my man. Infact, I find your views very pessimistic. How can you not think beyond trade and war. Vikings and Arabs were Humans too dude. Wherever people congregate for trade, or anything, there is bound to be an exchange of culture, language, food and all things. Some sparks can fly in such close quarters. People are ultimately people beneath the cultural masks they wear. A viking could have fallen for an Arab woman's charm or an Arab man could have fallen for a fiery viking woman, vice versa. I mean why is it so difficult to believe that two people from different cultures could not have exchanged anything beyond material stuff, (like body fluids )?

You know if you ask me, its cool to have a healthy amount of cynicism but you've got to be more open for new ideas. I am not asking you guys to accept anything outright but don't be rigid. Established facts keep getting built upon, especially in a field like history. You may never know what changes a new turn of events can bring about. I keep atleast one window of my mind open to new ideas. I don't ever negate or reject any idea outright, I personally find that counterproductive.

I never said there's anything wrong with having an optimistic worldview, but you shouldn't let it affect your judgement (and if you decide to, you should at least expect meeting opposition). Not only are the things you get from this article very far from what I got from it, but they also contradict everything we currently know about Vikings, and while every now and then we find a ground-breaking piece of evidence that revolutionizes everything we know about a specific culture/period/whatever, this isn't it. I don't deny the possibility that there has been more inter-cultural exchange between the early Arabs and Vikings than we currently know, but I'll need more proof than a single misplaced ring. C-man out! *drops mic*