[Hive's Battlefield] - A community Map

[dead-man-walking]

Wow Mr. Goblin! Awesome! But, I think the "Battle Field" should be written as "Battlefield" (No space between "Battle" and "Field").

 

[Mr.Goblin]

Wow Mr. Goblin! Awesome! But, I think the "Battle Field" should be written as "Battlefield" (No space between "Battle" and "Field").

fixed

 

[dead-man-walking]

Much better sir!

 

[Anachron]

MotAr- I really hope those trees have an death animation.
Anyway, will work on the map again (hopefully) on friday.

 

[krisserz]

Will there be some special heroes with other way of playing?
(I don`t like dota but it can be there as a good example: invoker)

 

[HailFireer]

Awesome Job Mr. Goblin.

Terrain also looks awesome. But, I think that bases are too big. Way to big...

 

[Anachron]

Working on the missle engine. Should be finished soon.

 

[Xarwin]

Hey guys!
MortAr-, thanks for your awesome work at the terrain!

Mr.Goblin, thanks for the logo, I've added it in the first post!

Thanks to all of you of for the idea's, work, ..
This is turning out great! Hell yeah.

Some other news: I've updated the first post with a new look, enjoy!

 

[Anachron]

Started working on city of death.
Have fun!

 

[Xarwin]

As you said before:

[23:27:17] Anachron: End of dota as we know it

An Awesome piece of terrain!

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I don't like the kill system and the assist system is ridiculous. How can you people even think of replacing Dota if do nothing but to create a map that is a cheap copy of it's ideals ? Wc3c tried and they failed, what makes you think you can make it?

As for the system itself I suggest something better: there are NO kills. That's right.
So, how to reward people? Easy: when a hero dies, each player of the team will get gold according to the damage they dealt. This way if you do all the job, you get all the gold. If you last hit, you get a null portion of gold. It can't get fairer than this. No needs for an assist system when you opt for the option. Just saying.

And about the spells, why only have 4 ? Why not make a tree of spells and allow the user to chose the strategy he wants like in diablo II ? Just saying, it is possible.

I could go on and on making suggestions, but experience tells me I am simply going to me flamed or ignored in the next thread, so I won't waste my time with this.

Cya guys, GL, you'll need it.

 

[MortAr]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/166837-albums3135.html
Updated with the latest changes being made.

@Flame_Phoenix
No you won't be flamed or ignored. Ideas are always welcome, and (imo), the suggestion about the reward is really cool, I never though of that myself. Like you, I really think the assist system is not the best way. Anyway, will be discussed when the time comes.
Thank you for your suggestion.

 

[Xarwin]

I don't like the kill system and the assist system is ridiculous. How can you people even think of replacing Dota if do nothing but to create a map that is a cheap copy of it's ideals ? Wc3c tried and they failed, what makes you think you can make it?

As for the system itself I suggest something better: there are NO kills. That's right.
So, how to reward people? Easy: when a hero dies, each player of the team will get gold according to the damage they dealt. This way if you do all the job, you get all the gold. If you last hit, you get a null portion of gold. It can't get fairer than this. No needs for an assist system when you opt for the option. Just saying.

And about the spells, why only have 4 ? Why not make a tree of spells and allow the user to chose the strategy he wants like in diablo II ? Just saying, it is possible.

I could go on and on making suggestions, but experience tells me I am simply going to me flamed or ignored in the next thread, so I won't waste my time with this.

Cya guys, GL, you'll need it.

Your comments are harsh in my eyes.
You could at least tune down and say it in a more happy way (but that's my opinion and perhaps I'm taking it from a wrong perspective).

Anyway. I think your idea rocks about the killing system.
But the diablo II system.. I'm quite unsure. The map is supposed to be kept noob friendly and still easy to play.

I'd like to hear more suggestion.
Thanks

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

@MorTar: I am admired in seeing such a friendly attitude. I was expecting something like "Go to hell" or a very similar behaviour. Perhaps it is wise to invest some of my considerable map making experience into aiding you people making this project better.

The kill system I suggested is unknown but it is an idea I took from a similar old map. When you play many maps you can find amazing things in their codes. The map in cause is no longer playable (Thx patch 1.24...) but it's ideas are very wide and can be used. Besides new versions of vJass will help implementing it.
When is that time coming? What are you people focusing now? I am quite lost after 11 pages...

Your comments are harsh in my eyes.
You could at least tune down and say it in a more happy way

You are right, my comment was harsh, I admit it. In part because I felt offended: you try to achieve a goal that a better community couldn't, and you don't even try to innovate. You simply don't learn with the mistakes. There is no denial when I say wc3c has better coders, but at least THW has a better community and that's something I respect. I could've done it in a better way, but again, I was so sure I was going to be flamed that I simply didn't bother being nice. It may change now.

The tree system can be simple. It doesn't matter what people play wc3, most of them surely know Diablo 2 and many are expecting for diablo 3 (just see the huge amount of download that D3 wc3 got). This had one meaning: people know D2 interface and they like it. This means that you can (and should) explore a simple version of their tree system.
I am not suggesting you to give 50 abilities to each hero. Instead, I suggest you to make organized heroes. Per example, a defensive support hero could have the following trees:
1 - heal (healing spells to heal HP and mana)
2 - shield (protects the party from damage)
3 - scout (for map control and creep control)

Each tree would then have 5 abilities. Experience says that people enjoy this sort of evolution: they can build their hero to fit any case.
This idea is not new and a part of it was already implemented by Aeroblyctos in his great campaign. I strongly recommend you to download it and test it:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/chosen-ones-3-3a-83535/?prev=search=TCO&d=list&r=20

He uses a very simple "tree" system. This poor imitation of tree system could be explored. He uses Taverns and allows people to choose their heroes. You can see it in the first map.
With a good designer you could attempt in doing something like this:
http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/data/500/medium/skill-tree-blizzcon2009-barb2.jpg

It is not that hard, believe me, it just needs a lot of work and trackables. With someone to design the artowrk Anachron could do it MPI.

It also makes me mad the fact that you are selecting people to be your heroes in an indiscriminate fashion. How can someone ignore the work of thousands of members !? You do realize that the real hero is the community and not some lonely guy. Do you really think you should thank Ralle ? I don't, if THW didn't exist people would simply move on to wc3c or to other community. If you are going to select heads, you better have Anachron in that selection because he is working for you! XD

It also freaks me the creep system. One of the things I find completely stupid in Dota (and HoN) is the fact that although your lane creeps have mana they are just too retarded to cast even a simple spell. What's the point then? Free food? Consume more CPU?!
Creeps and NPC's should have an intelligent behaviour capable of killing players. In DOta a player simply runs into a lane and start getting free gold - it offers no challenge. The best AOS's I've have have intelligent creeps that heal heroes, buff them and aid them in killing an enemy human player. In big battles you really have the feeling to be in the middle of hell, the feeling you are just another soldier.
And what about creeps camps !? How do creeps respawn? They simply appear by magic or what? It makes no sense. In another great AOS I've played, creeps had creep camps. These creep camps had creeps for the players to kill AND buildings. It was like a mini-AI evolving. Such creep camps could be destroyed and taken. Once a creep camp is taken it start supporting the team of the hero, thus adding a fundamental strategy to the game. Creep camps are not simply dummy gold mines, they actually serve a purpose and cant be ignored.

I think I've made enough suggestions for now.
I haven't see the rest of the plan. Maybe I will do so later.

 

[MortAr]

First of all, thank you for the suggestions you've made so far. I hope we'll get more amazing posts from you later on.

Now lets get to comment.

1. The Skill-Tree System: I don't think it'll be good to have something like this into an AoS type of map. Since, most of AoS (and I think this one too) will have a fast-paced action gameplay, which will be clearly impossible to implement such a system. Not just because its hard, because its dizzy. Nobody wants to spent 3-5 minutes, just reading the tooltips over every spell they got into their tree. True, people will learn the spells, but it will take alot of time. Anyway, suggestion is not bad, but for the first version I don't think we are going to do something like this.

2. Creep Camps: About that, yes, I had this idea about some weeks ago (probably, when the project was started), but a bit different. There will be some spots over the map that will be called relics, this relics will be guarded by dangerous monsters that will aim for the first hero that comes to take the relic. Relics can be "owned" by the team who kill the head-guardian of the specified relic. After collecting an relic, the team will be supported with new type of creeps that will attack from all 3 lanes, with the normal creeps that spawns every wave. The relic will also grant one special aura that works for the that owns it. The relics can then be taken by the enemy team who attack them and, again, kill the head-guardian.

Okay, thats for now, lets not destroy the surprise.

Again, its good that we have someone with such fresh and nice ideas. Thanks for sharing them with us.

 

[Septimus]

I don't like the kill system and the assist system is ridiculous. How can you people even think of replacing Dota if do nothing but to create a map that is a cheap copy of it's ideals ? Wc3c tried and they failed, what makes you think you can make it?

The correct term would be replacing aos, not dota. After all, dota was created generally by using aos concept as well. It was only far more popular than the origin aos it self. :=/

And about the spells, why only have 4 ? Why not make a tree of spells and allow the user to chose the strategy he wants like in diablo II ? Just saying, it is possible.

The problem is, spells require sfx and some sfx are custom made model that could increase the map size. We want to optimize the model usage as much as possible so more hero could be implement.

To top up with, if we add too much skill to 1 specific heroes; there is a small possibilities there is 2 hero with generally quite close/similiar spells. Which could turn into a rather much worst idea.

as mortar say, aos was afterall a fast paced action game.

@MorTar: I am admired in seeing such a friendly attitude. I was expecting something like "Go to hell" or a very similar behaviour. Perhaps it is wise to invest some of my considerable map making experience into aiding you people making this project better.

Your suggestion are definitely welcome, but you got to tune down your message as it was rather hostile.

You are right, my comment was harsh, I admit it. In part because I felt offended: you try to achieve a goal that a better community couldn't, and you don't even try to innovate. You simply don't learn with the mistakes. There is no denial when I say wc3c has better coders, but at least THW has a better community and that's something I respect. I could've done it in a better way, but again, I was so sure I was going to be flamed that I simply didn't bother being nice. It may change now.

Just because the other community was full of people with serious attitude or troll, it doesn't mean this community was part of it as well. Different place, different culture and so on; please remember that.

It also makes me mad the fact that you are selecting people to be your heroes in an indiscriminate fashion. How can someone ignore the work of thousands of members !? You do realize that the real hero is the community and not some lonely guy. Do you really think you should thank Ralle ? I don't, if THW didn't exist people would simply move on to wc3c or to other community. If you are going to select heads, you better have Anachron in that selection because he is working for you! XD

We need to make restriction on who deserve to be in it or else there is hundred or thousand of people would like to join.

The hero included are those who gives contribution not only to this site, but to this map development as well.

To top up with, it also include the aspect of how much contribution the person gives. We don't want people with barely 10 post at hive say "hey!! i wanna help!!" and all he does was barely give 2-3 suggestion and expected to be included into the map as a heroes.

It also freaks me the creep system. One of the things I find completely stupid in Dota (and HoN) is the fact that although your lane creeps have mana they are just too retarded to cast even a simple spell. What's the point then? Free food? Consume more CPU?!
Creeps and NPC's should have an intelligent behaviour capable of killing players. In DOta a player simply runs into a lane and start getting free gold - it offers no challenge. The best AOS's I've have have intelligent creeps that heal heroes, buff them and aid them in killing an enemy human player. In big battles you really have the feeling to be in the middle of hell, the feeling you are just another soldier.
And what about creeps camps !? How do creeps respawn? They simply appear by magic or what? It makes no sense. In another great AOS I've played, creeps had creep camps. These creep camps had creeps for the players to kill AND buildings. It was like a mini-AI evolving. Such creep camps could be destroyed and taken. Once a creep camp is taken it start supporting the team of the hero, thus adding a fundamental strategy to the game. Creep camps are not simply dummy gold mines, they actually serve a purpose and cant be ignored.

I hate to burst your bubble!! Some suggestion are not offficially announce yet. Some of us discuss some of the suggestion privately with xarwin because we do not want to reveal the entire content.

Just because you do not any suggestion about it at here, it doesn't mean it have not been discuss at other place.

I hope this clear it up.

 

[Viikuna]

As you said before:

[23:27:17] Anachron: End of dota as we know it

An Awesome piece of terrain!

Have to lol.

Actually, creating a more popular wc3 map than DotA is impossible, because DotA alone has a bigger player base than rest of wc3.


And yea, AoS is indeed a fast paced action game, like Septimus said.
Its all about cool player vs player combat. You need to focus on that.

Cool heroes are everything. They need to look cool. They need to do cool stuff. Thats most important.

Also improving normal wc3 hero system with new mechanics such as Blood Meter, is not a bad idea. You dont neccesarily have to live with only health and mana, for example.

Its hero vs hero combat you need to focus on. Make it interesting and cool and funny and wicked and everybody will love it.

 

[krisserz]

As for the system itself I suggest something better: there are NO kills. That's right.
So, how to reward people? Easy: when a hero dies, each player of the team will get gold according to the damage they dealt. This way if you do all the job, you get all the gold. If you last hit, you get a null portion of gold. It can't get fairer than this. No needs for an assist system when you opt for the option. Just saying.

I think this idea is great. It will be fair for players and will finish the problem of kill-stealing.

 

[Viikuna]

You should also take buffing allies and debuffing enemies in account. Also taking damage should be there, because tanking damage is important too.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

The problem is, spells require sfx and some sfx are custom made model that could increase the map size. We want to optimize the model usage as much as possible so more hero could be implement.

We just know you will import hero unit models -> that's what really takes up the space.
Spell FX have ridiculous sizes, in my map I only used one FX with 500KB and it was an atomic bomb explosion. All other FX's take about 1-5 KB which is really small->and you can compress some of them.

To top up with, if we add too much skill to 1 specific heroes; there is a small possibilities there is 2 hero with generally quite close/similiar spells. Which could turn into a rather much worst idea.

This will only happen if you lack ideas. In Aeoriblyctos campaign he has 3 heroes, each one with 3 trees and none of them has repeated spells nor similar spells -> which is why I recommended it as an example.

as mortar say, aos was afterall a fast paced action game.

One thing does not necessarily exclude the other. In "LoL" (per example) heroes have evolution trees, and people still love the game because it is still fast paced. In TCO (Aeroblyctos camapign) you actually choose the tree when the game starts and not in the middle of it. There are lots of options that can help you "fast pace" the evolution with trees. Besides, as Vikuna says, doing this will mean you will focus more on the human vs human player strategy and it also means people will like it better.
There is no denial, there will always be people playing the game for the first time, you can't think about them all the time. If they like the game, they will play it again. Besides you can make your trees simple and focused, offering only the important information about what spells do. When I first played the TCO campaign or other maps involving trees I always had enough time to read the skills that interested me. It doesn't take over a minute and people love it.

Just because you do not any suggestion about it at here, it doesn't mean it have not been discuss at other place.

How was I supposed to know that!? lol...

As for the creeps, I remember a nice AOS made by darkwulfy's clan. In his AOS creeps on the lanes could cast spells and the map was a real challenge to play. I think you should also do it.It was one of the best AOS's I've ever seen.
Another thing, I like the idea of people evolving creeps. Why not select a commander in each team? The commander will then decide what creeps to evolve or what skills to train for them «, thus making the lanes stronger. It is an idea from a game called Savage2, and it is really fast paced.

Its all about cool player vs player combat. You need to focus on that.

Yet, it doesn't exclude all other ideas. Don't focus too much on that, if you do you risk doing nothing original at all. People like new ideas, this is the place to have them implemented. People are tired of common AOS, that's why they are leaving Dota for other maps and games. Don't focus on the obvious.

In my project I had a secret idea. I wanted to include a creep camp player called the Nerubian Empire. This NPC's camp would behave like a melee player training units and evolving. Then, every X minutes of game this player would start an event:
- transporting gold caravans crossing the map (the players could attack and steal them)
- launching an attack on an enemy creep force or human force (the players could intercept the forces and engage battle for bonuses)
- etc.

Then each action could increase the favour and friendship of the players team according to the empire, thus making it a power enemy or a powerful ally. Players could obviously attack and take the empire by force as well.... but the empire would eventually rise against xD

Just a few ideas I didn't had time to use.

Also improving normal wc3 hero system with new mechanics such as Blood Meter, is not a bad idea. You dont neccesarily have to live with only health and mana, for example.

I don't like it that much :s. So you have no mana and no HP to cast spells ? It could make sense to use it as a "rage meter" like they use it on the videos, but nothing else... It also doesn't feel good to see a large damn grey box following your hero all around the map ... it's just "meh". XD

 

[HailFireer]

Fck, I'm way toooooo lazy to read 1 and a half page of a lot of text.

Anyway, I like reward system as well.

But we do need a hero count system. Because if there weren't one, and once you got all the gold you want there's nothing to do except gang creeps in hope you swarm enemy base first.

 

[Viikuna]

Its kinda like rage meter yea. Just one more bar. Heroes still have mana and health. ( Expect Blood Mage who has only health. )


Shit, you could even get rid of Blizzards own health bars, and do some custom bar thingy which shows health, mana, rage, energy or whatever that unit uses. ( Just took those example from WoW. It could be blood as well. )

Anyways, my point was that your ideas are too much about some random nerubian emipres, when the thing that you should focus on is Hero vs Hero combat, which is why the game is actually played. ( You wanna pwn some other guys with your friends )

So, thats why from the all new stuff you add, the things that play some role in Hero vs Hero combat, should have first priority.


At leats thats how I see it.


edit. The Legend of Sand had some pretty damn cool mechanics for upgrading your troops and gaining gold. From all AoS maps it achieved best this "two factions in war" -thingy. Its Hero vs Hero combat just wasnt too interesting.

But yea. Theres of course shitloads of other cool stuff that Hero vs Hero combat. That doesnt mean you should forget it, though.

 

[HailFireer]

Anyways, my point was that your ideas are too much about some random nerubian emipres, when the thing that you should focus on is Hero vs Hero combat, which is why the game is actually played. ( You wanna pwn some other guys with your friends )

Actually you want to pwn your friends.

 

[Viikuna]

Well, that too sometimes. Its indeed sometimes more satisfying than pwning some random guys.

 

[watermelon_1234]

In Aeoriblyctos campaign he has 3 heroes, each one with 3 trees and none of them has repeated spells nor similar spells -> which is why I recommended it as an example.

It's true that it's a nice idea, but keep in mind that the map being developed is an AoS; it will definitely have more than 3 heroes. The tree idea might not be bad though if it was applied to one hero to make that one creative or unique.

 

[Lore-Wolf]

do we like have teams already? like "evil VS good" for simple?

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Shit, you could even get rid of Blizzards own health bars, and do some custom bar thingy which shows health, mana, rage, energy or whatever that unit uses. ( Just took those example from WoW. It could be blood as well. )

Won't this make the game harder for newbies to learn? I really sounds a bad idea to me. What do you need rage for !? Bonus damage? Buy items then! Bonus armor? Buy items then! Bonus HP or MP ? BUY ITEMS !(lol).

It's true that it's a nice idea, but keep in mind that the map being developed is an AoS; it will definitely have more than 3 heroes. The tree idea might not be bad though if it was applied to one hero to make that one creative or unique.

Again, I answer with games such as "LoL" and DemiGod, which both use trees and people still like the fast paced AOS tactics it brings.

Anyways, my point was that your ideas are too much about some random nerubian emipres, when the thing that you should focus on is Hero vs Hero combat, which is why the game is actually played. ( You wanna pwn some other guys with your friends )

The nerubian empire was only an idea. It is the factor that makes every game different because both teams will try to get to it first. You'll still be trying to pawn an enemy human player, but with more strategy involved. People like that.
I want it to be clear: I am not saying you should add a nerubian player to the AOS, I am saying that you should use NPC's as a factor to create random events in the game to make it more interesting.

Legends of Sand? I think I've heard about it. A map in which there are caravans that carry gold? And that gold is used to allow your lanes to spwan creeps? very interesting map, one of my favourites. I played it 1 time and loved it. To bad the human vs human spells were just too simple. That killed the map for me, I was expecting better code
Other good examples of AOS's would be:
- Doomsday
- Age of Myths
- Clan BFAC AOS

You people should really check these out.

 

[HailFireer]

Yeah we need to determine teams soon!!

 

[Viikuna]

Won't this make the game harder for newbies to learn? I really sounds a bad idea to me. What do you need rage for !? Bonus damage? Buy items then! Bonus armor? Buy items then! Bonus HP or MP ? BUY ITEMS !(lol).

Because something is done in one way in wc3, it doesnt mean that its the best way. You have no real argument here.

Seriously. Trying new things and ideas is the way you find better ways to do stuff. I personally hate the whole item conpect.

There is nothing interesting in spending X gold for Y damage and Z agility.

The nerubian empire was only an idea. It is the factor that makes every game different because both teams will try to get to it first. You'll still be trying to pawn an enemy human player, but with more strategy involved. People like that.
I want it to be clear: I am not saying you should add a nerubian player to the AOS, I am saying that you should use NPC's as a factor to create random events in the game to make it more interesting.

I personally find the interaction between players more interesting than random computer driven events.
Of course you can have both, but I still feel kinda uneasy with these ideas. I cant really say why, because I dont know. ( lols )

Legends of Sand? I think I've heard about it. A map in which there are caravans that carry gold? And that gold is used to allow your lanes to spwan creeps? very interesting map, one of my favourites. I played it 1 time and loved it. To bad the human vs human spells were just too simple. That killed the map for me, I was expecting better code

Yep. That it is. I loved the idea. Too bad the map was not continued. It could have turned out to be something cool. :´(

edit. For those who havent played The Legend of Sand: There were three caravans you could try to ambush.

Stone Caravan - stone was used to raise your towns tech level to get better shops with better items, better unit types for lane, stronger defence structures.

Food Caravan - food was used to feed your army. If your town runs out of food, your troops get this starving debuff, which makes them shit ass weak.

Gold Caravan - gold was given to players so they could buy stuff. This replaced common X gold/sec mechanic which is used in many AoS maps.

 

[Anachron]

Guys the missile system for this map is nearly finished.
I would like to have feedback, please check the thread here.

 

[Lore-Wolf]

so how do we like want to make teams just look at the heros and say. this hero looks like evil it can go to evil side and so on. or do some thing like said erlier terrainer + modelers VS ... but I think that will be very hard for people that which you dont know to put where.

 

[HFR]

Amazing idea, and I'm sure it will be a great map with a this team.

I'm waiting for the completion, and to play it.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Because something is done in one way in wc3, it doesnt mean that its the best way. You have no real argument here.

Seriously. Trying new things and ideas is the way you find better ways to do stuff. I personally hate the whole item conpect.

There is nothing interesting in spending X gold for Y damage and Z agility.

So you would make players unable to buy items ? What to do with gold then? Simply upgrade your units? buy more units? evolve the citadel? It is a possibility, personally I don't like the concept of items in an AOS much either.

I personally find the interaction between players more interesting than random computer driven events.
Of course you can have both, but I still feel kinda uneasy with these ideas. I cant really say why, because I dont know. ( lols )

The best hero arenas had random events. People loved them and so did I. Killing players was nice, but entering the random event (like a duel every X minutes) and win gold, or killing zombie pigs in the lanes was super fun. My opinion.

edit. For those who havent played The Legend of Sand: There were three caravans you could try to ambush.

Stone Caravan - stone was used to raise your towns tech level to get better shops with better items, better unit types for lane, stronger defence structures.

Food Caravan - food was used to feed your army. If your town runs out of food, your troops get this starving debuff, which makes them shit ass weak.

Gold Caravan - gold was given to players so they could buy stuff. This replaced common X gold/sec mechanic which is used in many AoS maps.

And you say you don't like NPC's events? lol.
I agree with Vikuna, this is an awesome concept and personally I would love to have it implemented in your project. Things make a lot more sense this way.

 

[Viikuna]

Hrm, maybe Im not making too much sense.

Maybe its not the NPC events in general that bother me, but that the fact that most of NPC event ideas around here are complete bullshit. ( Not neccesay in this threa, dont kill me pls.. )

 

[redscores]

What about using gold as a kind of score, and if you reach a certain score you can unlock things, for example:

1000 Gold required: Allied units attack 10% faster.
2000 Gold required: Allied units deal 10% more damage.

and so on, that would make it challenging and not frustrating!

Gold would be GLOBAL, everyone can gather it, but you cannot by simply fighting, you have to be lucky that a creep drops a coin and heroes always drops coins which count as 5 coins of gold or so... isn't that a idea?

So basicly: You have a gold vault in your base, the gold value which shows normally your real gold shows the amount of gold in the vault, if you have enough gold you can unlock a bonus ^^.

 

[Anachron]

Random events.
Team upgrades.
Players able to control the creeps (click = overwrite owner, unselect = owner change again).

Just to throw some stuff into the discussion.

 

[krisserz]

Random events.
Team upgrades.
Players able to control the creeps (click = overwrite owner, unselect = owner change again).

Yes (good idea)
Not at all but yes
Yes

 

[HailFireer]

No no no, player able to control creeps is out of the question. Everyone would just make them stop, pile up an army and the send it. No jut leave em at control of PC. Random events and team upgrades (if they upgrade the PC not the heroes) are cool.

 

[krisserz]

No no no, player able to control creeps is out of the question. Everyone would just make them stop, pile up an army and the send it. No jut leave em at control of PC. Random events and team upgrades (if they upgrade the PC not the heroes) are cool.

That`d be fun. And not that after player deselcets the unit it stops. The AI takes control over it again so it move on.

 

[redscores]

look at what i wrote up

*points upwards*

 

[Viikuna]

Better Ai for creeps would be cool. Something further way from generc AoS and closer to normal wc3 ladder play. ( Units attack, retreat and stuff like that. )

I remember some guys making this modified Lost Temple map with 2 computers playing normal ladder and 5 players with AoS like heroes fighting on each side.


It was kinda like AoS, but instead of lanes and towers and bases there was normal ladder gameplay. It was actually pretty cool. Heroes where cool and there was shops with stuff and everything.

Map was made by some finnish guy called MuhisYliJumala if I remembers correctly. Cant remember maps name.




Anyways. Something in between generic AoS and ladder AI might turn out to be pretty cool. Trying to protect your retreating troops might be pretty fun. As well as trying to kill enemys. Some caravan stuff for suplies might also be cool.

Hrm. Thanks to Flame Pheonix, I now remember how cool The Legend of Sands systems were. Evolving from AoS to "two cities at war" -map is what I want to do someday. Gotta investigate further.

But anyways. Dont forget Heroes. Players dont play with creeps and towers. They play with Heroes.


Hero vs Hero combat.


Viikuna out.

 

[Anachron]

I could make an creep AI that allows creeps (whether they are neutral or spawn creeps) to act as a group and do stuff based on the situation.

About the creep control:
What I meant was you are able to change the targets and the actions of the creeps, however, if you try to use the stop / hold position order the creeps will just ignore it and continue their current order.

 

[Xarwin]

Aargh guys so much responses makes the topic look pretty much as a "spam" and is splitting up important topics (each member keeps quoting A LOT with responses).
Our original team discussion and eventually more is getting scattered.
Please keep it down a bit with the idea's and if you really feel to suggest them post them at my profile so we can discuss about it in another place (you, and the team members).

For now I'll just respond on some replies.

It also freaks me the creep system. One of the things I find completely stupid in Dota (and HoN) is the fact that although your lane creeps have mana they are just too retarded to cast even a simple spell. What's the point then? Free food? Consume more CPU?!
Creeps and NPC's should have an intelligent behaviour capable of killing players. In DOta a player simply runs into a lane and start getting free gold - it offers no challenge. The best AOS's I've have have intelligent creeps that heal heroes, buff them and aid them in killing an enemy human player. In big battles you really have the feeling to be in the middle of hell, the feeling you are just another soldier.
And what about creeps camps !? How do creeps respawn? They simply appear by magic or what? It makes no sense. In another great AOS I've played, creeps had creep camps. These creep camps had creeps for the players to kill AND buildings. It was like a mini-AI evolving. Such creep camps could be destroyed and taken. Once a creep camp is taken it start supporting the team of the hero, thus adding a fundamental strategy to the game. Creep camps are not simply dummy gold mines, they actually serve a purpose and cant be ignored.

Creeps will be AI controlled as told before in the very first thread. Also I'd like to come back on a reply of Septimus:

I hate to burst your bubble!! Some suggestion are not offficially announce yet. Some of us discuss some of the suggestion privately with xarwin because we do not want to reveal the entire content.

Just because you do not any suggestion about it at here, it doesn't mean it have not been discuss at other place.

It is indeed true that most users of the team are discussing with me in private. Some idea's might sound very basic because they are also the basic of an AoS and not dota. Dota is almost the equal word for AoS which should not be. Beside the fact of having basic idea's we also have fresh idea's to add which have not been used before.
Also, it is my responsibility to keep stuff movin'. I'm doing my best to make everyone work on things if they contact me (or when I contact them).

The problem is, spells require sfx and some sfx are custom made model that could increase the map size. We want to optimize the model usage as much as possible so more hero could be implement.

Not all stuff requires to be a model, skin or something else which is custom. However Septimus is right at this point. The map may have a lot heroes in late-stage which could take up a lot of space. I am planning to keep the size low as much as we can.

Have to lol.

Actually, creating a more popular wc3 map than DotA is impossible, because DotA alone has a bigger player base than rest of wc3.

It was sarcasm, I just had to laugh when Anachron said that in our conversation.

It also makes me mad the fact that you are selecting people to be your heroes in an indiscriminate fashion. How can someone ignore the work of thousands of members !? You do realize that the real hero is the community and not some lonely guy. Do you really think you should thank Ralle ? I don't, if THW didn't exist people would simply move on to wc3c or to other community. If you are going to select heads, you better have Anachron in that selection because he is working for you! XD

It's not my intention keeping out those "thousands" members of you. Everyone may have a chance (beside the 1-post nuubz: CAN I HAS JOIN?). However, we will filter like it has been mentioned before. Beside that we'll find a good way for users having their own hero inside the map.

What about using gold as a kind of score, and if you reach a certain score you can unlock things, for example:

1000 Gold required: Allied units attack 10% faster.
2000 Gold required: Allied units deal 10% more damage.

and so on, that would make it challenging and not frustrating!

Gold would be GLOBAL, everyone can gather it, but you cannot by simply fighting, you have to be lucky that a creep drops a coin and heroes always drops coins which count as 5 coins of gold or so... isn't that a idea?

So basicly: You have a gold vault in your base, the gold value which shows normally your real gold shows the amount of gold in the vault, if you have enough gold you can unlock a bonus ^^.

Sounds great. Perhaps we should replace the lumber resource for that since we're not using it yet.
I think we still should use gold for hero/unit upgrades & eventually items.
Items are still important and half of the people will not play the game if there are no items (it makes the game more interesting).

Random events.
Team upgrades.
Players able to control the creeps (click = overwrite owner, unselect = owner change again).

Just to throw some stuff into the discussion.

Random events sounds good, I was thinking on something like that too lately.
Team upgrades = look at redscores idea.
Players able to control the creep uh? Personally I think it would lead into chaos.
Why? Because if they select all units and keep focusing on something else than the other enemy creeps the balance would be out of it soon. Perhaps we could add it as a mode.


@Flaming_Phoenix
I think that the skill-tree system like you explained is a pretty good idea.
Heroes could have different abilities and it makes the map more enjoyable.
People could play with their favorite hero having different skills which can be chosen at the start. However, we'll see how to turn it out. You know we can still add it in the end.

For the rest, its great to see you people contribute so much.
Sorry if I missed something from anyone. If you'd expected a response please let me know it.

 

[redscores]

Well, I would love to be hero concept writer for you, for stuff like synergies, and theoretical stuff about skills, because you don't seem to need a coder anymore... Or any other concept writing would be great.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Random events.
Team upgrades.
Players able to control the creeps (click = overwrite owner, unselect = owner change again).

I am not sure if controlling creeps is a nice idea. It works in single players, but what about having 5 players controling 1 creep? Bad idea imo.

Anyways. Something in between generic AoS and ladder AI might turn out to be pretty cool. Trying to protect your retreating troops might be pretty fun. As well as trying to kill enemys. Some caravan stuff for suplies might also be cool.

This would be the perfect map. It remembers me of a demo map Moyack made. I can post it here if you want

 

[Xarwin]

Guys, its about time we also eget the items idea's up beside th hero concepts.
Post them in our social group and for the non-team people who'd like to support: feel free to post idea's here.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Social What!? How can I even access that!?
Items ....Well, there is little to say except that : use Anachrons item system.
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...inventory-159130/?prev=d=list&r=20&u=Anachron

This should do it

As for the items themselves ... the concept does not offer any space for originality. I suggest throwing away the Wc3 item concept and create a concept simillar to the concept of an RPG. Per example, if the hero buys a sword, the player should see the model with the sword. If the hero a new shield, the player should see the new shield on the model.
This is possible using small add-ons:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/packs-542/weapon-attachments-157748/

However one needs to make sure that the models of the heroes DO HAVE A BONE STRUCTURE and that they have the necessary attachment points -> which is why I think that using normal Wc3 model should be enough, since they have all you need and cost 0 extra space.

Just a suggestion for you to consider.

 

[redscores]

No. not such a system for a AoS.... I am out of this then, a rpg item system simply doesn't match a AoS....

 

[Xarwin]

I have to agree with redscores.
This is an AOS and nothing else. We should keep the basics in mind and not expand or mix it with any other gamestyle which makes it not fit.
As what has been said before: fast action is required.
redscores, you mean you're out of the team, or what?

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

No. not such a system for a AoS.... I am out of this then, a rpg item system simply doesn't match a AoS....
___

Then you suggest we simply copy the others thousands of AOS's without adding anything new?
As an item system, it SHOULD have something new. It might not be necessarily an RPG item system, but should be something new. Remember that we are creating something new around here, not just "another crappy" AOS.

EDIT EDIT EDIT

As for the items themselves ... the concept does not offer any space for originality. I suggest throwing away the Wc3 item concept and create a concept simillar to the concept of an RPG. Per example, if the hero buys a sword, the player should see the model with the sword. If the hero a new shield, the player should see the new shield on the model.
This is possible using small add-ons:
Weapon attachments

However one needs to make sure that the models of the heroes DO HAVE A BONE STRUCTURE and that they have the necessary attachment points -> which is why I think that using normal Wc3 model should be enough, since they have all you need and cost 0 extra space.

Just a suggestion for you to consider.

Ok, what about this part of my suggestion? I think it is acceptable.