Blood Tournament Reloaded

[deepstrasz]

A pretty nice concept. Nothing that much to say, seems quite fun. Maybe you can expand with races/factions and game modes further.

Approved.

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[Jaccouille]

Spent a few weeks playtesting and fixing bugs, and managed to correct all the issues that were stressing me out, I can say with fair confidence that the map is stable now.

 

[NiceSlay]

Hi Jaccouille,
I like this map a lot, and I was wondering if you have any tips on creating my own map with my own units using the Blood Tournament theme? I haven't used WorldEdit in many years and am very beginner but I think it would be very fun to create this type of map with units of my design.

Thank you,
NiceSlay

 

[NiceSlay]

Update from my last reply: I have been trying to learn to use Wurst and add a custom unit (anything really to start).
For instance I wanted to make a super footman that is really tanky, ignoring balance issues and stuff at the moment but I couldn't even get it to spawn. I was able to do it if I edit the regular footman but I can't seem to add a unit of my own using similar code.

Then I reverted that, and I wanted to make footmen have an upgrade to a stronger footman and the upgrade didn't show up.

Wondering if you have any advice?
Thank you!

 

[Jaccouille]

Update from my last reply: I have been trying to learn to use Wurst and add a custom unit (anything really to start).
For instance I wanted to make a super footman that is really tanky, ignoring balance issues and stuff at the moment but I couldn't even get it to spawn. I was able to do it if I edit the regular footman but I can't seem to add a unit of my own using similar code.

Then I reverted that, and I wanted to make footmen have an upgrade to a stronger footman and the upgrade didn't show up.

Wondering if you have any advice?
Thank you!

Hello,
For starters, this map can't really be edited with the editor only as it is dependent on Wurst, you could create the units in the editor but then, you'd need to reference their IDs in the script which I find tedious.

With Wurst you can define units, abilities buffs & upgrades with code and leverage the advantage of Object Oriented Programming. This is a time saver, especially for programmers who doesn't like to click on a user interface like the World editor.

I may write some documentation & make a template map to let people make their own blood tournament map, I believe it is fairly possible with perseverance even for non-programmers.

Can you elaborate on what you have done already :
1. Have you installed wurst? (Tutorial here but may be incomplete)
2. Have you managed to run a map from Visual Studio code?
3. Are you editing the blood tournament map or have you created a project from scratch?

 

[3nemy_]

Finally a proper successor to original BT with some nice features and QoL changes unlike those clone maps with imba units (Grand, Origin, LOTR, W40K, SW..), hopefully more people pick this one up and start hosting it more often!


There's a typo in the knockout stage it says "Demi Finals" not sure if intended.

 

[3nemy_]

After a few online games I'd like to point some issues I had and maybe you could consider making some changes.

So far I'd say human and undead are strongest races, pally with protection ability/item, upgraded knights and upgraded sorceress is really strong but undead with vampire lord is on a whole different power level. I find other races to be quite lackluster in comparison.
Mass building vampires with his ability can obliterate entire frontline if you place them in first rows, you'd need lots of canon fodder in front to counter that but then you'd need to wait for your main contigent of army to walk out of portal. I see spectral armor of vengeance spirits can apparently counter that due to vampire lord attack weakness however I haven't had a chance to test that in a live game yet.
So maybe his ability could be nerfed or perhaps make the spell have a delay when casted if that's possible.

As for other races, NE seems to have best ranged units naturally but they shine either after 1v1 fight in middle of arena or elimination round because in a normal round they get massacred by mortars, sorceress AoE, etc, but if you were to add e.g. to 5th or 6th row it would be useless unless you spam lots of them but they would occupy more rows so really there is no solution to this.

I find Orc to be possibly the weakest of all, units are individually strong but their count is too low, orc has least amount of units on field, they lack AoE nuker type of unit, shaman and witch doctor fades in comparison to similar units of other classes imo but I have yet to try orc in live match, so far I've had terrible experience with it against AI.

Now, some bugs I encountered. Not sure if this is caused by leavers or not but in late game voting to start the round breaks completely and there are multiple errors on screen, vote won't pass and no matter how many times players vote it will still bring up the error so you have to wait for timer to count down.

Also, sometimes when countdown is at 0 army still isn't coming out but it fixes itself in about half a minute or so.
There were some other error messages on screen but I can't remember it now on top of my head, I'll screenshot them next time.

Few suggestions: Add option for host to be able to change roundtime in the middle of a game or extend elimination time to maybe 3 minutes or so because at the beginning default time is too long but late game it's actually not enough if you have lots of units and you need to trade blood for gold, upgrade or add buy items. I know red can modify this at the beginning but because of the reasons above it wouldn't work for entirety of game.

I like item system but selecting all buildings and buying items for them often doesn't work as intended and you have to do each one individually and if you have lots of buildings this becomes really time consuming and tedious and yes I did have enough resources so again this brings us back to late game roundtime.

Lastly, add end game builder or more buildings purchasable only with blood like original BT had because currently you have too much blood by the end and you just spam same units, I just think it needs more variety even though this could potentially cause more balance issues as was the case in OG BT where gryphons for example would absolutely dominate the field unless opponent had mass archer posse and longbow squadrons.
Also add option to trade gold to blood in case of a screw up.

I have another more "radical" suggestion that could potentially break balance or not.
So I'm not a fan of mass building and moving buildings around just to find perfect formation each round. In original BT there were posse and squads of units, their count was much higher than in your map but you could choose to build either one single unit or a squad if I remember right, so perhaps if you don't agree on increasing count maybe consider adding one single unit instead of squad of more.

Okay, so this was a more lengthy post than I expected however I really enjoyed playing your map since I used to play a lot original BT back in the day and I'd like to see a revival to this style of maps more.

I'll edit my post if I think of anything else but this is it for now and I hope to see more of this map, thank you!

 

[Jaccouille]

Thanks for writing such a long feedback, I apologize for the delayed response.

I'll certainly keep your points in mind, but please understand that, for me, the game is intentionally chaotic. Balancing it is a challenge I find difficult and not necessarily my priority, as my goal was to approach this as a technical and design experiment, primarily for my own enjoyment and that of my close friends.

So far I'd say human and undead are strongest races, pally with protection ability/item, upgraded knights and upgraded sorceress is really strong but undead with vampire lord is on a whole different power level. I find other races to be quite lackluster in comparison.
Mass building vampires with his ability can obliterate entire frontline if you place them in first rows, you'd need lots of canon fodder in front to counter that but then you'd need to wait for your main contigent of army to walk out of portal. I see spectral armor of vengeance spirits can apparently counter that due to vampire lord attack weakness however I haven't had a chance to test that in a live game yet.
So maybe his ability could be nerfed or perhaps make the spell have a delay when casted if that's possible.

I'll keep an eye on this. Debuff and ranged magic are meant to serve as counters to heavy-damage frontlines. I understand the frustration caused by massed Carrion Swarm, a solution could be implementing a cooldown upon spawn, so the unit must survive for five seconds before casting.

As for other races, NE seems to have best ranged units naturally but they shine either after 1v1 fight in middle of arena or elimination round because in a normal round they get massacred by mortars, sorceress AoE, etc, but if you were to add e.g. to 5th or 6th row it would be useless unless you spam lots of them but they would occupy more rows so really there is no solution to this.

I’m not entirely sure I understood this part, but from my previous feedback, NE seemed stronger than other races while still susceptible to defeat, which felt balanced enough. Archers being vulnerable to AoE is intentional, but the frontline is designed to mitigate this by soaking up AoE damage, which often has a cap (e.g., Carrion Swarm is absorbed by front liners, sparing backline ranged units).

I find Orc to be possibly the weakest of all, units are individually strong but their count is too low, orc has least amount of units on field, they lack AoE nuker type of unit, shaman and witch doctor fades in comparison to similar units of other classes imo but I have yet to try orc in live match, so far I've had terrible experience with it against AI.

The Orcs are meant to excel in sheer brute force on the frontline, the idea was "Orc breakthrough frontline and decimate backline", with a focus on Grunts, Raiders, and Warmongers. The reduced impact of their casters is by design, as they serve more as support for the frontlines rather than being game-changers on their own.

Now, some bugs I encountered. Not sure if this is caused by leavers or not but in late game voting to start the round breaks completely and there are multiple errors on screen, vote won't pass and no matter how many times players vote it will still bring up the error so you have to wait for timer to count down.

Also, sometimes when countdown is at 0 army still isn't coming out but it fixes itself in about half a minute or so.
There were some other error messages on screen but I can't remember it now on top of my head, I'll screenshot them next time.

I haven't been able to replicate these issues, but your suggestion that leavers might be involved could be a useful lead.

Few suggestions: Add option for host to be able to change roundtime in the middle of a game or extend elimination time to maybe 3 minutes or so because at the beginning default time is too long but late game it's actually not enough if you have lots of units and you need to trade blood for gold, upgrade or add buy items. I know red can modify this at the beginning but because of the reasons above it wouldn't work for entirety of game.

I'll extend elimination times and add more voting options to adjust game settings mid-match.

I like item system but selecting all buildings and buying items for them often doesn't work as intended and you have to do each one individually and if you have lots of buildings this becomes really time consuming and tedious and yes I did have enough resources so again this brings us back to late game roundtime.

This is indeed a drawback of the system, and I recognize how tedious it can become.

Lastly, add end game builder or more buildings purchasable only with blood like original BT had because currently you have too much blood by the end and you just spam same units, I just think it needs more variety even though this could potentially cause more balance issues as was the case in OG BT where gryphons for example would absolutely dominate the field unless opponent had mass archer posse and longbow squadrons.
Also add option to trade gold to blood in case of a screw up.

I’m hesitant to add such units, as elimination units tend to be overpowered. In this version, you can refund all your units, so players would simply sell their "normal" units and only build elimination units, which leads to the exact issue of "spamming the same units" that you highlighted.

I have another more "radical" suggestion that could potentially break balance or not.
So I'm not a fan of mass building and moving buildings around just to find perfect formation each round. In original BT there were posse and squads of units, their count was much higher than in your map but you could choose to build either one single unit or a squad if I remember right, so perhaps if you don't agree on increasing count maybe consider adding one single unit instead of squad of more.

This is an interesting suggestion, but it would require significant changes to my current system. I’ve considered reducing the complexity of building placement and item purchases by adding a blueprint system (like Factorio), where players could save their army composition and reuse them across games. I thought that would be an innovative and fun solution.

Okay, so this was a more lengthy post than I expected however I really enjoyed playing your map since I used to play a lot original BT back in the day and I'd like to see a revival to this style of maps more.

I am glad you enjoyed the map to the point where you wrote such a lengthy post.