Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[Kam]

So you should think of alternative units whom fit to the sea:

1. Turtles
2. Crabs
3. Mur'guls & Murlocs
4. Sea Giants
5. Sea Revenants
6. Think of something that could do as some kind of spectre or ghost that fit to the sea.
7. Water Elementals
8. Serpents

Remember that you can make pretty marvellous looking units by using special effects and visual effects on them just add the effects via passive item abilities which have no statistic effect nor icon.

I'm using 1,3,4,and 7 currently. The issue I have is that the other Sunken Ruin creep models don't have swim animations, and most of the other models here lack swim animations. I'll think of something.

 

[MogulKahn]

There is a nice naga pack on russian site, maybe you can use some of these models? http://xgm.guru/p/wc3/naga-model-pack
Is it forbidden to link other sites? If yes, I am going to remove it !

 

[Kam]

There is a nice naga pack on russian site, maybe you can use some of these models? http://xgm.guru/p/wc3/naga-model-pack
Is it forbidden to link other sites? If yes, I am going to remove it !

I think XGM is ok? I had not seen this though so I thank you.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Yeah, some of the stuff on XGM is alright. Some pretty talented peeps there.

I've had a really hard time accepting "Water Elementals" as more than regular "summons" in a Naga race (possibly as a Unit or even worse, a Hero?). What are your thoughts on that?

 

[Pson]

How about that giant turtle in the xgm pack as the experimental unit (space and animations allowing)?

 

[Kam]

Yeah, some of the stuff on XGM is alright. Some pretty talented peeps there.

I've had a really hard time accepting "Water Elementals" as more than regular "summons" in a Naga race (possibly as a Unit or even worse, a Hero?). What are your thoughts on that?

Right now the heavy magic unit summons Sea Elementals. She can summon quite a few if played correctly as she has Siphon.

How about that giant turtle in the xgm pack as the experimental unit (space and animations allowing)?

Here's the issue. Right now Orcs have their turtle, and Naga have their turtle. I am adding an additional regular turtle that is a mobile harvesting base for Naga. I don't think I should add any more turtles, as much as I love them.

 

[Remixer]

I don't know if you allow more space taken but I got this cool idea of a coral rock golem. That could be pretty badass.

 

[Kam]

I don't know if you allow more space taken but I got this cool idea of a coral rock golem. That could be pretty badass.

I'm looking at a lot of options. I have the spells for the experimental unit. I'll most likely release the next update without that unit in the build tree yet. I need test reports on balance and such.

 

[MogulKahn]

Mate, I have tried your map, and I can say just one thing. One of the best custom race maps I have every played. Really great job. Every race is unique in some way. I was sceptical about your Experimental units, but they are so great. Honestly I am not big fan of a few models, but we all like/dislike some different things. Can't wait to try your naga race !

 

[Kam]

Mate, I have tried your map, and I can say just one thing. One of the best custom race maps I have every played. Really great job. Every race is unique in some way. I was sceptical about your Experimental units, but they are so great. Honestly I am not big fan of a few models, but we all like/dislike some different things. Can't wait to try your naga race !

Thank you for your kind words.

Which models are you not a fan of?

The Naga are in a playable condition right now. I am hoping to release the update tomorrow evening. I'm waiting to see if some model edits can get done but if not they aren't game breaking issues.

For the interested: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/requests-341/model-edits-decay-animations-hp-bar-height-256058/

 

[BandolXD]

Is there any other way to add the mod without making backup file ?

 

[Kam]

Is there any other way to add the mod without making backup file ?

I'm not sure what you mean. All you need to do is drop the map in your maps folder. There is no "install".

 

[BandolXD]

Oh, I thought this was a mod. Thanks for the information ^_^ !

 

[Kam]

Oh, I thought this was a mod. Thanks for the information ^_^ !

It replaces two races entirely and heavily modifies Orcs and Humans so I would consider it a mod.

 

[Remixer]

Remember to Calculate the Shadows, it's necessary to make the map look good.

 

[MogulKahn]

I don't see a point in a tauren hero and troll berserker when they are the only units from their races ! Maybe replace their models whit orcs or goblin? And that altar for your "fallen" race is so ugly ! Not too big just some thing that caught my eye !

 

[Kam]

I don't see a point in a tauren hero and troll berserker when they are the only units from their races ! Maybe replace their models whit orcs or goblin? And that altar for your "fallen" race is so ugly ! Not too big just some thing that caught my eye !

The majority of Tauren are not war-hungry and prefer to live out their lives in the wilderness. This hero is one who prefers blood.

I'm not sold on the Lost Altar so if I find a more suitable model I may replace it.

The new update is out. Here is what I need from you:

How do you feel about the Naga race? Is the synergy between units apparent? Do you find the water bonus (Eternal Well) and ability for all units to swim unbalanced?

Please note that for now only Insane AI works.

I need these models corrected so if you have the ability, time, and are willing:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/requests-341/model-edits-decay-animations-hp-bar-height-256058/

 

[TaShadan]

So Naga is playable in the new update?

 

[Kam]

So Naga is playable in the new update?

Yes, choose Night Elf.

 

[MogulKahn]

I have tested it. And I can say they are really cool. I see that you put a lot of effort in them. There is nothing WOW about them (comparing them to Lost), but you did really great job. Some things are still missing, but all in all, I would give them 4/5. Keep up whit the great work !

 

[Kam]

I have tested it. And I can say they are really cool. I see that you put a lot of effort in them. There is nothing WOW about them (comparing them to Lost), but you did really great job. Some things are still missing, but all in all, I would give them 4/5. Keep up whit the great work !

What would you change?

 

[MogulKahn]

I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, your Naga race is great, you did really great job (waiting for remaining 2 heroes and for that experimental unit), but your Lost race was masterpiece. First time when I saw them, I was like "nahhhh", but when I played them in-game I was mind blown ! Are you planing to add something more to your map or after this you can say that it is finally over?

 

[Kam]

I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, your Naga race is great, you did really great job (waiting for remaining 2 heroes and for that experimental unit), but your Lost race was masterpiece. First time when I saw them, I was like "nahhhh", but when I played them in-game I was mind blown ! Are you planing to add something more to your map or after this you can say that it is finally over?

I'm happy you like the Lost.

The Naga experimental is currently in there. It's the Sunderer.

I'm not done by any means other than major editions. I can't add a great deal more in terms of imported content due to the map size restriction. I will be able to accommodate the remainder of the Naga but I've had to cut a great deal out so far. I also compressed a lot of existing material further. My ultimate goal is to get that same feeling of uniqueness with the Naga which is a task due to how well known they are. In this way creating a whole new race from scratch was much easier. I've always liked Naga though and the lore I've prepared for them fits right in with my timeline. I feel if there had been a second expansion the Naga would have had a greater role.

EDIT:
For anyone interested in balance I've attached a unit comparison chart.

 

[Pson]

I've checked the naga in the new version (Typhoon map, looks great btw) and they do appear quite unique, more so than expected. Very micro heavy for my taste though with all that mana management actives and the rest of abilities on top of that.

I had 3 magic reduction drops from creeps, perhaps you might want to reduce their frequency since they stack up with the naga hero's skill.

Several tooltips, especially upgrades, aren't finished or list completely wrong things/unit names but you probably know this already (armor upgrade comes to mind first, it only described giving an HP bonus). The hero also didn't have the naga racial. Not sure if intended or not.

What's the purpose of a separate structure only to upgrade myrmidons when there is space in their barracks anyway? Are there several missing upgrades?

The mobile dropsite turtle can deposit both gold and lumber and I'm bugged on if the former is good or not. With correct placement it can reduce the worker count needed (for example behind the goldmine lets you gather it at full efficiency with only a couple of miners and is close enough to to trees at the same time for a good while, especially if you rotate it around the back side of the mine, reducing lumberjacks needed as well). I guess it saves pop and resources for a couple of extra combat units per expansion. I have a similar unit for my map (unreleased until the Scythians are ready) and I'm wondering if I should leave it to just lumber. In my map this might be more of an issue since it uses double workers per mine and a lot more would be cut out by such a unit.

Lastly, in the game interface menu you could rename your races so Night Elf list as Naga and Undead as Lost correctly.

 

[Kam]

I've checked the naga in the new version (Typhoon map, looks great btw) and they do appear quite unique, more so than expected. Very micro heavy for my taste though with all that mana management actives and the rest of abilities on top of that.

I had 3 magic reduction drops from creeps, perhaps you might want to reduce their frequency since they stack up with the naga hero's skill.

Several tooltips, especially upgrades, aren't finished or list completely wrong things/unit names but you probably know this already (armor upgrade comes to mind first, it only described giving an HP bonus). The hero also didn't have the naga racial. Not sure if intended or not.

What's the purpose of a separate structure only to upgrade myrmidons when there is space in their barracks anyway? Are there several missing upgrades?

The mobile dropsite turtle can deposit both gold and lumber and I'm bugged on if the former is good or not. With correct placement it can reduce the worker count needed (for example behind the goldmine lets you gather it at full efficiency with only a couple of miners and is close enough to to trees at the same time for a good while, especially if you rotate it around the back side of the mine, reducing lumberjacks needed as well). I guess it saves pop and resources for a couple of extra combat units per expansion. I have a similar unit for my map (unreleased until the Scythians are ready) and I'm wondering if I should leave it to just lumber. In my map this might be more of an issue since it uses double workers per mine and a lot more would be cut out by such a unit.

Lastly, in the game interface menu you could rename your races so Night Elf list as Naga and Undead as Lost correctly.

Thank you for the feedback.

There are a number of tooltips that aren't complete yet. The building for the Myrmidon upgrades will also hold an advanced upgrade for the Incursor, will have a unique ability, and is required for certain upgrades. The armor upgrade is actually correct, Naga upgrades are for mana capacity, and maximum health. They can be upgraded four times for the latter. Several people have pointed out the gold return issue. It is meant as a way to allow the Naga to expand without building a structure, but I can see how it can be exploited. Do you have a suggestion on how to solve this? I've edited the interface so that should be correct in the next release.

 

[Pson]

Thank you for the feedback.

There are a number of tooltips that aren't complete yet. The building for the Myrmidon upgrades will also hold an advanced upgrade for the Incursor, will have a unique ability, and is required for certain upgrades. The armor upgrade is actually correct, Naga upgrades are for mana capacity, and maximum health. They can be upgraded four times for the latter. Several people have pointed out the gold return issue. It is meant as a way to allow the Naga to expand without building a structure, but I can see how it can be exploited. Do you have a suggestion on how to solve this? I've edited the interface so that should be correct in the next release.

What I mean about armor upgrades is that they mention only giving extra hp, and if I remember well they also increased armor.

I don't think it's an unfixable imbalance for your map.. 3 or 7 extra food on average (can't make an exact calculation) or a slightly better economy can be balanced in other ways such as slightly weaker units overall or weaker casters/structures/melee/techs and goes on. Melee WC3, even for the similar in economy humans and orcs, gives a clear lumber advantage to humans with the upgrades so that orcs need more workers for it, but it doesn't turn out gamebreaking. You could also move the turtle to tier 2 to have it's effect work kinda like the human lumber upgrades instead of an early economic boost. I was more concerned about my version of the unit since it would have about double the effect with 10 workers per mine.

If you want to reduce it's effect instead of balance it in other ways, you could increase the turtle's food cost. Say it works best with 2 workers next to a mine, give it a food cost of 3. If you want to also balance the effect of reduced lumberjacks, you could increase it by 1 or 2 more.

Another fix would be editing the model to have it lay on the ground in a rest stance and make it turn into an immobile building to gain the dropsite ability. This could prevent it from being placed too close to gold mines.

Or the obvious, have it deposit only lumber.

I'd love to hear other suggestions you might get on this as they could help in my map as well.

 

[Kam]

What I mean about armor upgrades is that they mention only giving extra hp, and if I remember well they also increased armor.

I don't think it's an unfixable imbalance for your map.. 3 or 7 extra food on average (can't make an exact calculation) or a slightly better economy can be balanced in other ways such as slightly weaker units overall or weaker casters/structures/melee/techs and goes on. Melee WC3, even for the similar in economy humans and orcs, gives a clear lumber advantage to humans with the upgrades so that orcs need more workers for it, but it doesn't turn out gamebreaking. You could also move the turtle to tier 2 to have it's effect work kinda like the human lumber upgrades instead of an early economic boost. I was more concerned about my version of the unit since it would have about double the effect with 10 workers per mine.

If you want to reduce it's effect instead of balance it in other ways, you could increase the turtle's food cost. Say it works best with 2 workers next to a mine, give it a food cost of 3. If you want to also balance the effect of reduced lumberjacks, you could increase it by 1 or 2 more.

Another fix would be editing the model to have it lay on the ground in a rest stance and make it turn into an immobile building to gain the dropsite ability. This could prevent it from being placed too close to gold mines.

Or the obvious, have it deposit only lumber.

I'd love to hear other suggestions you might get on this as they could help in my map as well.

I want to keep it as gold and lumber deposit station, I think I will try increasing the food cost to 5, reduce movement speed, and increase gold/lumber cost for a start. The real drawback for the Naga worker unit is that you must sacrifice it to make a structure. So for instance if you were to send only two slaves with the turtle you would not be able to build any defensive structures, and the turtle would be too slow to escape most units.

The "armor" upgrade increases the number in the armor info box but not the actual armor.

Do you have similar unit in your project? It looks very well done by the way. When will you have a release version?

 

[Pson]

I want to keep it as gold and lumber deposit station, I think I will try increasing the food cost to 5, reduce movement speed, and increase gold/lumber cost for a start. The real drawback for the Naga worker unit is that you must sacrifice it to make a structure. So for instance if you were to send only two slaves with the turtle you would not be able to build any defensive structures, and the turtle would be too slow to escape most units.

The "armor" upgrade increases the number in the armor info box but not the actual armor.

Do you have similar unit in your project? It looks very well done by the way. When will you have a release version?

I'd probably try 4 pop and tier 2 for the turtle then, but what you said could also work. Can't remember it's cost now but, imo it shouldn't be more expensive than 3-4 workers. Or make it tougher so it doesn't die easily if it gets slower and costlier.

Another thing that came to mind is not nerfing it (perhaps only increasing food accordingly) and allowing it to attack. Could work for a hero + turtles rush without barracks as an alternative tactic. You could also add the dropsite attribute with a tech on tier 2 if you do it this way.

Got you on the armor thing.

My map is playable, not ready for release yet, but you can take a look or even have a game with me online. Contact me anytime you wish and I'll play if I can or give you the map.

The unit I'm talking about is a pack horse for the Scythians (Nomad Equestrian Civ)

It's ment to be a slightly costlier worker doing the building construction (villagers will keep the gathering and maybe some advanced structures). Most of their buildings will be rather weak, fast made and redeployable tents packed from/to the horse. Meaning the horse can redeploy as any of the various tents. It will also serve as a dropsite for lumber (for sure) and possibly gold (but I don't want to make it too expensive for obvious reasons and my mines have 10 workers, so here's the issue).

An alternative is to have it do the mining job, which would look good and refreshing with a pack horse and just resort to a storehouse tent for lumber harvesting. But I like the mobile dropsite idea, AOM nostalgia and 0 AD Mauryan worker elephants playing a part, differentiation and fitting with the Scythian civ another.

Overall it's a crazy civ, very different from the rest. But I think it will work in the end, with great (melee and ranged) cavalry, great archery, no houses/farms and very weak town defenses balanced with low building costs, transportability and cavalry being able to return for base protection quite fast. I even had them playable in early versions and they didn't seem very unbalanced.

 

[Kam]

The update today deals mainly with fleshing out the Naga. There in only one more unit upgrade that I will be adding as of now. I am unsatisfied with the Naga air game so that will be my focus next.

I've also attached an updated unit comparison chart.

 

[VeljkoM]

Late comer here so I have yet to see play enough to get the feeling right. So far I did enjoy naga, but I have noticed few things that puzzled me a bit.

Draken upgrades were available before unit was (no idea if this is standard); I couldn't manage to make Naga Witch to hypnotize units, are there some special conditions and for how long does it brainwash; should naga worker cost 25 gold and still have same gathering as human worker who costs 50, some sort of balance because naga worker is consumed when builds?; Shouldn't Wind Serpent's first ability use mana, the AoE 80 damage/stun ability; Will Coral building (food) have secondary role?

When I get more experience with all 4 races (they aren't as I used to remember) I'll try to make better comments. Oh and in the end Valkyrie's Mystic Guff, isn't it kinda easy to abuse to get high intelligent stats, you can use Conceal non stop or use bind on everything you see (including critters).

 

[Kam]

Late comer here so I have yet to see play enough to get the feeling right. So far I did enjoy naga, but I have noticed few things that puzzled me a bit.

Draken upgrades were available before unit was (no idea if this is standard); I couldn't manage to make Naga Witch to hypnotize units, are there some special conditions and for how long does it brainwash; should naga worker cost 25 gold and still have same gathering as human worker who costs 50, some sort of balance because naga worker is consumed when builds?; Shouldn't Wind Serpent's first ability use mana, the AoE 80 damage/stun ability; Will Coral building (food) have secondary role?

When I get more experience with all 4 races (they aren't as I used to remember) I'll try to make better comments. Oh and in the end Valkyrie's Mystic Guff, isn't it kinda easy to abuse to get high intelligent stats, you can use Conceal non stop or use bind on everything you see (including critters).

-I will fix the Draken upgrades.
-Murky Gaze is a permanent effect. It does not affect structures, mechanical units, heroes, or creeps above level 6.
-The low gold cost for the Slave is a balance effort due to sacrificing them to build. Currently that is also causing a problem with lumber shortages in the first five minutes so likely I will be lowering early lumber costs.
-Geyser should have a mana cost, I left it to 0 from when I was testing.
-I would like Coral Beds to have a secondary use. Do you have any suggestions?
For reference:
Burrow - Allows peons to hide inside and gain an attack (greatly buffed over vanilla)
Farm Depot - Allows purchase of vulnerable sheep to quickly increase food cap
Terminus Crux - Mobile attacker

 

[VeljkoM]

Well I still couldn't actually use Murky Gaze. Neutral and enemy units just ignored it.

Coral Beds well I guess easiest would be mana aura since your naga seem to love it (either drains enemy or fills your units) but that wouldn't be to useful at start of the game. I guess heal would be more desirable as I didn't notice that naga has way to heal units but that wouldn't be too original.

 

[Kyrbi0]

The update today deals mainly with fleshing out the Naga. There in only one more unit upgrade that I will be adding as of now. I am unsatisfied with the Naga air game so that will be my focus next.

Consider that perhaps the Naga are merely/intentionally "air-deficient" as a race, like as a racial profile. It saves you from the work, & even makes sense (honestly, how any underwater creature can learn to fly in the less-pressurized atmosphere & without magic...). Kinda like Orcs.

I've also attached an updated unit comparison chart.

Wow, you really get into the whole "charting" thing like I do. Of course, I don't think even I bothered to keep track of HP & damage & stuff like that... And what does "point value" even do??

 

[Kam]

Consider that perhaps the Naga are merely/intentionally "air-deficient" as a race, like as a racial profile. It saves you from the work, & even makes sense (honestly, how any underwater creature can learn to fly in the less-pressurized atmosphere & without magic...). Kinda like Orcs.


Wow, you really get into the whole "charting" thing like I do. Of course, I don't think even I bothered to keep track of HP & damage & stuff like that... And what does "point value" even do??

I will keep this in mind. I am considering some drastic changes to the two air units so I may reduce it to one.

Point Value is used when you vote to turn Bounty on, and in the final game stats scoring screen. For instance if you kill a Siren you get 200 gold.

 

[Heinvers]

Wow that Sea Witch is one helluva badass right now
(Ruined Lock map)

 

[Kam]

Wow that Sea Witch is one helluva badass right now
(Ruined Lock map)

Thank you.

I have a surprise for you all after the next update. I'll let you wonder for now.

 

[Remixer]

Dem Steam gifts ;D

Keep it up Kam, even though I am totally retired from WC3 related things at the moment.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I have a surprise for you all after the next update. I'll let you wonder for now.

*wondering intensifies*

 

[Heinvers]

giftsss

 

[sonofjay]

I have a surprise for you all after the next update. I'll let you wonder for now.

You're such a tease.

 

[Ardesan]

awesome work dude!

 

[Kam]

I have released an update dealing mostly with the Naga.

Keep an eye out in the next week for a special contest.

 

[Kam]

I am currently running a contest to improve the balance in my map. The prize is substantial.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/arena-226/arena-event-detailed-analysis-btt-tod-259581/

 

[JCarrill0]

I might be interested in this Kam!

 

[Wayshan]

Awesome project Kam

Personally I would more likely see 5 workers instead of 10. The reason is simple - you don't need more workers. Even for rush are 5 workers enough. I believe 5 workers should stay.

 

[Kam]

My project has been nominated for Project of the Year at Mod DB. If you enjoy my project and find it deserving please vote.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/beyond-the-throne-tides-of-darkness

 

[ShadowShaman.mn]

I dare to say that the map is a really debonair one. The suave terrain is in a synesthesia with the uncted units. On a separate matter, the grotesque navi implementation, slackens the flatness of the universal impression. Although the lost race makes a conspiracy to the overall theme, I may say that the jeopardy disbursed.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I dare to say that the map is a really debonair one. The suave terrain is in a synesthesia with the uncted units. On a separate matter, the grotesque navi implementation, slackens the flatness of the universal impression. Although the lost race makes a conspiracy to the overall theme, I may say that the jeopardy disbursed.

Someone discovered the thesaurus today... That or a pair of dice with words on the faces. :<

 

[Kam]

Someone discovered the thesaurus today... That or a pair of dice with words on the faces. :<

I'm not sure, I think I was complimented.

 

[Retera]

I thot English was my native language, but now I am not so sure. At least we agree that Beyond the Throne is cool.

Edit: I think... unless I mistranslated? Haha