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[Altered Melee] Ancient Empires

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Level 15
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We can Play online any time (pm me).:)


As for protecting your resources from me or other people I can't advice you because I have no experience with it. If you can or can't trust me is up to you.

Also I'm sort of trying to help the current editor of "Greece", which is a game I still play from time to time, seing the unit models in this game updated would be great. Also, I'm making own Ancient Empires Themed map, so if you want to pool your resources my way, i'd be grateful; but I understand entierly if you dont.
 
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Subscribing to this thread so I can test if you need help. I've always been a fan of Ancient Greece.

Want to test it yourself or in multiplayer?

We can Play online any time (pm me).:)

As for protecting your resources from me or other people I can't advice you because I have no experience with it. If you can or can't trust me is up to you.

Also I'm sort of trying to help the current editor of "Greece", which is a game I still play from time to time, seing the unit models in this game updated would be great. Also, I'm making own Ancient Empires Themed map, so if you want to pool your resources my way, i'd be grateful; but I understand entierly if you dont.

I'm up for a game even now:)

It wasn't personally directed to you, you just reminded me of the issue and I'd like some advice from more experienced community members. On my behalf I couldn't care less if everyone gets access to all resources they'd like, I'm even for it, I just want to respect the hive's rules and each resource creator's will. Besides that I just don't want to see modified versions of my map around claiming they're made by someone else.

Whatever resource is free to use you can take it, you can even get and use the 0 Ad icons I've converted to WC3 format, they're under a free license. On the other hand I'd love some of the resources in "Greece" if you're in any way authorized to give them or can spot Fluff who seems inactive. I'd like to hear more about your map as well.
 
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Oh My God!!! This is like a dream map for me. If it was about 6 months ago I would have helped u heavily and I really mean heavily with testing but now i am really busy. But when u upload the map, I will play it 100%. +Rep.
EDIT: Ok subscribed. Total of 1 subscription.
 
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Oh My God!!! This is like a dream map for me. If it was about 6 months ago I would have helped u heavily and I really mean heavily with testing but now i am really busy. But when u upload the map, I will play it 100%. +Rep.
EDIT: Ok subscribed. Total of 1 subscription.

Thanks:)

One pic as requested (terrain is once more wip, layout mostly the same)
Screenshot_2014-07-31_17.10.58.png
 
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I've fixed my ports and can now host on B.net for easier playtesting. You can now add me as AncientEmpires in the European server.
 
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Suggestions:
- You can liberate/recruit slaves as basic soldiers if you attack another faction.
- Make the terrain less flat.
- Make it so farm give food based on the amount of grass they are built on. Make the crops field expand slowly.
- Move the town center closer to only require 5 workers?
- Have you considered using a world map?
- I can take over allied sheep/chickens.
- You shoud add a chicken take over of passive resources through walking near them. And play a rescue sound and ping the map so that you know when your scout has found a resource.
- I only looked through your triggers and they leak, so someone should help you out with that. And that desync was worrying.
- The AI doesnt take over neutral critters.
- I didn't manage to use the market to trade resources as Romans, "A valid patron must be nearby?" Had army units and citizens standing there.
- 20 or so minutes in starts to lagg real bad for me.

Rome, Carthage, Sicily, Athens Sparta and Macedon and Crete could be the map bounds. But then again you want people to chose a faction not starting location.

  • rank up
    • Events
      • Unit - A unit Dies
    • Conditions
      • (Level of A Rank for (Killing unit)) Less than or equal to 4
    • Actions
      • Set u1 = (Killing unit)
      • Unit - Increase level of A Rank for u1
      • set u1 = null
]Merged your Capture resource with AI into one trigger instead of 5.

  • Capture Resource
    • Events
      • Unit - A unit Is attacked
    • Conditions
      • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
        • Conditions
          • (Unit-type of (Triggering unit)) Equal to Elephant (change for AI, NE)
          • (Unit-type of (Triggering unit)) Equal to Horse (change for AI, NE)
          • (Unit-type of (Triggering unit)) Equal to Sheep
          • (Unit-type of (Triggering unit)) Equal to Chicken
          • (Unit-type of (Triggering unit)) Equal to Fishing Region
    • Actions
      • Set u1 = (Triggering unit)
      • Set u2 = (Attacking unit)
      • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
        • If - Conditions
          • (Unit-type of u1) Not equal to Fishing Region
        • Then - Actions
          • Unit - Change ownership of u1 to (Owner of u2) and Change color
          • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
            • If - Conditions
              • ((Owner of u1) controller) Equal to Computer
            • Then - Actions
              • Set Point = ((Owner of u1) start location)
              • Unit - Order u1 to Move To Point
              • Custom script: call RemoveLocation(udg_Point)
            • Else - Actions
        • Else - Actions
          • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
            • If - Conditions
              • (Life of u1) Less than or equal to 500.00
            • Then - Actions
              • Unit - Change ownership of u1 to (Owner of u2) and Change color
            • Else - Actions
      • Set u1 = No unit
      • Set u2 = No unit
  • as said
    • Events
      • Time - Every 2.00 seconds of game time
    • Conditions
    • Actions
      • Set Point = (Random point in (Playable map area))
      • Set UnitGroup = (Units in (Playable map area) matching (((Unit-type of (Matching unit)) Equal to Scout) and (((Owner of (Matching unit)) controller) Equal to Computer)))
      • Set u1 = (Random unit from UnitGroup)
      • Unit - Order u1 to Move To Point
      • Set u1 = No unit
      • Custom script: call RemoveLocation(udg_Point)
      • Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_UnitGroup)
Your scouting trigger is abit weird? You want to pick a random unit every time, or move eveyr unit in that group randomly? Perhaps scout starting locations insead?

Its important that you remove u1 , u2 and point in every trigger, otherwise this above would malfunction. Also if you want to prevent players capturigng allied resources you just insert a condition before the or block in the beginning.

I think the rank trigger was causing the lagg? Since it leaked and its the only thing that happens frequently?
 
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Alright, i fixed some mediterranean flora for you... first off i made animations for my palm trees, which can be used in more dry regions. Also i edited the skin for the oaks to give a more dry look, so you can use them with the palm trees. I made a really cool desert texture with some shrubbing in it. I also attached a slightly modified version of the grass texture, which might look more mediterranean, but i am not sure i like it. Judge for yourself. Finally, i want to introduce you to an amazing new concept i invented: Decals.

The basics of decals is that you replace a building texture with an environmental texture, and give it to an invisible and unselectable building. Then you are free to place it all over your map to give a high-res feel to the ground!!

The decal texture i attached is high res, let me know if you need one with lower resolution. I suggest you import it to "ReplaceableTextures\Splats\DemonGateUberSplat.blp" and use the "Demon Gate" ground texture.

Important object editor settings for the decal unit:

Abilities: Invulnerable, Locust
Icon: "ReplaceableTextures\WorldEditUI\DoodadPlaceholder.blp" (totally optional but i think it looks neat)
Model File: "Doodads\Terrain\LOSBlocker\LOSBlocker.mdl" (the same as pathing blockers)
Ground texture: the texture of your choice.
Shadow texture - building: none
Attacks enabled: none
Can flee: false
Is a building: true
Race: critter (you must ofcourse always place them as neutral passive)
Sight radius day/night: 0
Upgrades used, units trained, etc: none

About Pinzus suggestions: don't use a world map, this is not that kind of game. There are PLENTY of maps like this which use a world map, including my own project and likely his. I love the melee feel you have now. Also, a rule of thumb when designing games: don't add features which don't immediately become obvious to the player. By immediately obvious i mean by some kind of visual feedback, pieces of text don't count.
 

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Level 7
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Messages
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Suggestions:
- You can liberate/recruit slaves as basic soldiers if you attack another faction.
When I re-add the revolt trigger for slaves, you'll be able to get them as your own by attacking/capturing them. Slaves were very rarely liberated in antiquity, compared to them changing owners and I see no need for an extra weak unit in the mid to late game.
- Make the terrain less flat.
Terrain will change quite a lot.
- Make it so farm give food based on the amount of grass they are built on. Make the crops field expand slowly.
I don't want to mess with complex triggers, plus this system works quite well so far.
- Move the town center closer to only require 5 workers?
It's intentional to have 9-10 workers per mine. It might be confusing at start, but together with slaves and other minor things makes the gameplay more eco-heavy and that's what I wanted to do. It's not just like add double workers, you have to think more on your worker distribution (especially in the early game) depending on the situation, your faction and your strategy.
- Have you considered using a world map?
Yes. If I make more of them one might be a Mediterranean map, but the main map will be similar to the one I'm working on. Layout may change again though if something better comes up.
- I can take over allied sheep/chickens.
I know, no big deal for an alpha though, to be fixed.
- You shoud add a chicken take over of passive resources through walking near them. And play a rescue sound and ping the map so that you know when your scout has found a resource.
Nice idea, no clue how to trigger it and it's low priority, but I'll think about it.
- I only looked through your triggers and they leak, so someone should help you out with that. And that desync was worrying.
Could you mention which ones leak? I've used point, unit etc variables so I've got no clue on what's wrong. That out of memory error happens in like 10% of games in the late game. It could be those leaks or something else I'm thinking about. The rank skill every unit has calculates miss and critical for a few hundreds of units at the same time, could it be the cause? It's debatable if it's good for gameplay so I might as well remove it anyway.
- The AI doesnt take over neutral critters.
I know (at least when scouting, armies will take over them when they meet them), and your related suggestion might help with that as well.
Rome, Carthage, Sicily, Athens Sparta and Macedon and Crete could be the map bounds. But then again you want people to chose a faction not starting location.
I've made/started and abandoned several ancient era wc3 maps in the past and most of them were similar to this suggestion (or a bit bigger). This time I'm going more for classic RTS/Altered melee than Strategy/Risk style, and my chosen factions wouldn't exactly fit anyway (leaves out 2 Macedonian sub-factions, Celts, Scythians and Persians).

Thanks, nice feedback and suggestions:)
 
Level 7
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Messages
243
Alright, i fixed some mediterranean flora for you... first off i made animations for my palm trees, which can be used in more dry regions. Also i edited the skin for the oaks to give a more dry look, so you can use them with the palm trees. I made a really cool desert texture with some shrubbing in it. I also attached a slightly modified version of the grass texture, which might look more mediterranean, but i am not sure i like it. Judge for yourself. Finally, i want to introduce you to an amazing new concept i invented: Decals.

The basics of decals is that you replace a building texture with an environmental texture, and give it to an invisible and unselectable building. Then you are free to place it all over your map to give a high-res feel to the ground!!

The decal texture i attached is high res, let me know if you need one with lower resolution. I suggest you import it to "ReplaceableTextures\Splats\DemonGateUberSplat.blp" and use the "Demon Gate" ground texture.

Important object editor settings for the decal unit:

Abilities: Invulnerable, Locust
Icon: "ReplaceableTextures\WorldEditUI\DoodadPlaceholder.blp" (totally optional but i think it looks neat)
Model File: "Doodads\Terrain\LOSBlocker\LOSBlocker.mdl" (the same as pathing blockers)
Ground texture: the texture of your choice.
Shadow texture - building: none
Attacks enabled: none
Can flee: false
Is a building: true
Race: critter (you must ofcourse always place them as neutral passive)
Sight radius day/night: 0
Upgrades used, units trained, etc: none

About Pinzus suggestions: don't use a world map, this is not that kind of game. There are PLENTY of maps like this which use a world map, including my own project and likely his. I love the melee feel you have now. Also, a rule of thumb when designing games: don't add features which don't immediately become obvious to the player. By immediately obvious i mean by some kind of visual feedback, pieces of text don't count.

Woah thanks! I'll check them and come back to you. Decals sound interesting, I might include them. I won't change to a real world map, don't worry. Is that last part about the mine worker count for example? I'd rather not change it but could add a hint warning at game start.
 
Mine worker count? Not sure what you are talking about, if you mean the worker-heavy gameplay, no problem. People can grasp that pretty quick. I was talking about people who suggest stuff like "hey, lets make seasons and make it so that crops yield less in the winter, and HEY, lets make it so that units get tired when walking in desert", etc. Functionalities that the player will not immediately understand unless there is some kind of art added for it, like an indicator above the head, or a change in the crops texture, etc.

About decals, they are not something you need to "implement", you just place the unit as you would with a doodad, to kinda paste a texture onto the ground. Here's a screenshot of all the new resources ingame:

attachment.php
 

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Level 15
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Messages
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The farm suggestion would be immedietly obvious as it would only change terrain over grass. You could even add a floating text over it when its completed to read how high the effectivity of it was. (Im gonna try make a test map for it, don't know if I have time to finnish it today though.) ;)

Actually for my map I had ideas for terrain effecting the units. It could work by adding a (invisible dummy hostile creep) with a negative endurence aura for example or you could give them negative life regeneration. But I don't think this map needs this.

I liked how the towers were really hard to kill.
 
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Messages
322
Decal actually sound like they will give more textures. Also love to see AOE-like terrain in War3. U guys are killing it.
 
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243
I updated my post with two triggers for you to draw from.

Thanks! I'll fix them when fin stops keeping me busy with new eyecandy:p

Mine worker count? Not sure what you are talking about, if you mean the worker-heavy gameplay, no problem. People can grasp that pretty quick. I was talking about people who suggest stuff like "hey, lets make seasons and make it so that crops yield less in the winter, and HEY, lets make it so that units get tired when walking in desert", etc. Functionalities that the player will not immediately understand unless there is some kind of art added for it, like an indicator above the head, or a change in the crops texture, etc.

About decals, they are not something you need to "implement", you just place the unit as you would with a doodad, to kinda paste a texture onto the ground. Here's a screenshot of all the new resources ingame:

attachment.php

Got you. about decals, when I posted that I didn't even know how they would look like, they look great it seems. I'm also using your dirt decal under palms and it looks wonderful. I've got some issues though. New dirt doesn't border well with grass (I've also got one guy making me a dirt texture so no need to rush fixing that), neither does the shrub decals. Also, decals stay above my spawned farmground (any fix for this? Is decal/building ground that somehow goes over other decals possible?).

Screenshot_2014-08-02_01.56.57.png

Screenshot_2014-08-02_02.02.43.png

Screenshot_2014-08-02_01.55.56.png


Thanks to everyone for the support/kind words/help!
 
More models!!

Today i made a new type of palm tree, the fan palm. It is a bit more "bushy" than the regular date palm and makes for great variation. I also made a new decal texture, this time for cliffs, and it looks quite amazing. I used it to replace the "castle" ground texture (ReplaceableTextures\Splats\HumanCastleUberSplat.blp). Here's a screenshot of the new stuff:

attachment.php


And one in a less barren setting:

attachment.php


I made some more edits to the grass color aswell, it is a bit better now... i think. Try it out for yourself and see what you think.

EDIT: Ah, well... for the farmland, there is no solution except making the field into a decal aswell (just a ground texture for the farm). The last placed ground texture will always be on top. If you want to try that, i can send you one. I know the grass doesn't transition well into the sand, and i am working on trying to fix that, or making some intermediate tile perhaps.
 

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Level 7
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I also made a new decal texture, this time for cliffs, and it looks quite amazing. I used it to replace the "castle" ground texture (ReplaceableTextures\Splats\HumanCastleUberSplat.blp). Here's a screenshot of the new stuff:

attachment.php


And one in a less barren setting:

attachment.php


I made some more edits to the grass color aswell, it is a bit better now... i think. Try it out for yourself and see what you think.
WTF??? Now u made even the clifs AOM style. Got to love u my friend.
 
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More models!!

Today i made a new type of palm tree, the fan palm. It is a bit more "bushy" than the regular date palm and makes for great variation. I also made a new decal texture, this time for cliffs, and it looks quite amazing. I used it to replace the "castle" ground texture (ReplaceableTextures\Splats\HumanCastleUberSplat.blp). Here's a screenshot of the new stuff:

attachment.php


And one in a less barren setting:

attachment.php


I made some more edits to the grass color aswell, it is a bit better now... i think. Try it out for yourself and see what you think.

EDIT: Ah, well... for the farmland, there is no solution except making the field into a decal aswell (just a ground texture for the farm). The last placed ground texture will always be on top. If you want to try that, i can send you one. I know the grass doesn't transition well into the sand, and i am working on trying to fix that, or making some intermediate tile perhaps.

Both a farm ground texture and a nice transition (or even better an intermediate texture would be great). Awesome new goodies once more and screenshots as well. What fog do you use?

Cool but I am hoping somewant remake aom in Wc3 style I missed that game very much

Not just u. there are a lot of others. lets create a heaven for all those players ;)

I'll eventually add a mythology mode, not to the point of the original game though. Probably like 3 myth units per civ unlockable at the temple.
 
I fixed you a farmland decal which you can use as building texture for the farm. It looks much better than the ol' war3 crops!! This time i made it in 256x256 to spare you some filesize. Just import it with the path "ReplaceableTextures\Splats\HumanUberSplat.blp" and use the "Spawning Grounds" ground texture (it is bigger than the regular human ones). It will show up above the other decals.

EDIT: I use a custom fog with R: 255 G: 230 B: 170, Z Start: 1800, Z End: 5000.

By the way, next time you play on b-net, count me in!

EDIT2: Okay, i made this really quick intermediate texture... the tiling is a little bit off, though i might try to touch it up later. It does the job of transitioning from grass to desert though (provided you use the latest grass texture), so maybe you can use it for now.
 

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I'll probably still be around for the next 3-4 hours. Off playing with the terrain once more till then:)
 
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Yeah it's probably leaks. Pinzu pointed out some, I'd still like some triggering help though.
 
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I've been working on my farm system. Maybe you would want to know you can remove the farm land that belongs to a particular farm when it dies. You use jassnewgenpack or normal world editor? If the first you could try my trigger, otherwise i'd have to convert it to gui (meh). ;)

Could someone help me with the paths for the models of Fingolfin? :s
 
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Fin made a farmland buildingground texture, so there's no need, I'm using that instead. I can help you with anything on the paths, just in a couple of days though, I'm currently in the middle of preparations to leave for the weekend.
 
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Fin made a farmland buildingground texture, so there's no need, I'm using that instead. I can help you with anything on the paths, just in a couple of days though, I'm currently in the middle of preparations to leave for the weekend.

Right, forgot about that. Take your time.

I finished my Farm Land System, I still think it could have a place in your map. (Giving farm return based on the tileset under the crops.)
 
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Right, forgot about that. Take your time.

I finished my Farm Land System, I still think it could have a place in your map. (Giving farm return based on the tileset under the crops.)

I'm mostly against such a system but we'll see about it. What resources do you need the paths for?

From a pm after a playtesting run with Fin, posted here to allow more people take part on the suggestions:

Fingolfin said:
Pson said:
Is there anything else you remember besides these?

-Elephant fear aura not affecting enemy elephants
-Reduce building hp ~20%
-Increase unit hp ~20%, appropriate upgrades
-God choice with required dummy unit (everyone has at start, remove once upgraded)
-Villas not garrisonable, unload with trigger
-Slightly increase pike collision
-Unit tool tips with clear roles
-Double(?) the repair time

Only one thing: try to add a slight sense of countering. I know you say you want units to be balanced by their natural stats, but there are so many aspects of ancient combat that you simply cannot recreate, such as pikemen being useless on their own, and their strength in syntagma formation depending on the attacker coming from the front. The fact that it says all unit counters cav also kinda discourages you from getting cavalry at all, despite it being the key to Alexanders victory. Cavalry should counter all ranged units, they should be quite strong vs swordsmen, quite weak vs spearmen and very weak vs pikemen. If they haven't already: Seleucids should get a cavalry bonus (because they were the only ones who had heavy cataphracts).

-Pikes are cost-ineffective unless massed, and I could reduce their turn rate a lot to bring them even closer to their natural attributes (extra vulnerable to being surrounded). In mass they will beat anything melee, especially cavalry, but are slow and vulnerable to ranged, especially skirmishers who are bonused vs them.

-Spears are meatshields (especially tough with some upgrades for several civs) bonused against cavalry.

-Swords have slighly less defense but considerably more attack and often more speed than spears, without a special role. Rome can mass more and stronger swordsmen, even more so by sacrificing their Spearmen with the Marian Reforms tech.

-Skirmishers are good vs melee infantry, short-ranged and fast to train. While weak when not protected by melee, they have high-ish hp and for some civs they can act like semi-infantry with extra buffed hp (peltasts, thureophoroi), while for others they become better at hit and run with extra speed.

-Archers have low attack, low hp and they are long ranged, cheap, slow-ish to train with smaller collision than skirmishers and ability to become semi-siege with fire arrows. Extremely weak when unprotected but strong in masses.

-Gastraphetes are extra long ranged and have high attack, low fire rate, which differentiates them from other ranged troops but they might need a bit more special role. Very weak when unprotected.

-Rams are heavily anti-structure, Ballistas anti-structure that can become anti-troop as well with fire rate upgrades and Onagers anti-structure with aoe (especially good vs low collision units like pikemen and archers).

-Cavalry Skirmishers are very fast and slightly bonused vs ranged infantry, workers and support (representing raiding/skirmish/light cavalry good vs anything light).

-Heavy Cavalry is not a specialized unit, but they're fast and very powerful. They should be effective vs anything but anti-cav.

-Elephants are expensive tanks, melee aoe and anti-structure, best stopped by tank + ranged/siege and secondarily by anti-cav. They'll also run amok when damaged (turn neutral hostile) when I re-add the trigger.

Overall cavalry is powerful, or at least will be if it's currently not properly balanced. More expensive, slower to train, limited due to extra effort/cost to build stables compared to other troop structures. A generally less numerous and more elite force like in reality. Seleucids get the Hellenistic Catafracts and Armored Elephants upgrades and they also get the default Macedonian cavalry bonus so their cavalry is potentially the strongest amongst the first civs and subfactions.

I think it's a system that can work with fine-tuning here and there, without adding extra hard counters.

Edit: Just finished a game vs AIs with the most important changes applied (unit, building and tech stats altered). It felt much better, there's enough time to micro your units in most cases now.
 
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I'm mostly against such a system but we'll see about it. What resources do you need the paths for?

From a pm after a playtesting run with Fin, posted here to allow more people take part on the suggestions:



-Pikes are cost-ineffective unless massed, and I could reduce their turn rate a lot to bring them even closer to their natural attributes (extra vulnerable to being surrounded). In mass they will beat anything melee, especially cavalry, but are slow and vulnerable to ranged, especially skirmishers who are bonused vs them.

-Spears are meatshields (especially tough with some upgrades for several civs) bonused against cavalry.

-Swords have slighly less defense but considerably more attack and often more speed than spears, without a special role. Rome can mass more and stronger swordsmen, even more so by sacrificing their Spearmen with the Marian Reforms tech.

-Skirmishers are good vs melee infantry, short-ranged and fast to train. While weak when not protected by melee, they have high-ish hp and for some civs they can act like semi-infantry with extra buffed hp (peltasts, thureophoroi), while for others they become better at hit and run with extra speed.

-Archers have low attack, low hp and they are long ranged, cheap, slow-ish to train with smaller collision than skirmishers and ability to become semi-siege with fire arrows. Extremely weak when unprotected but strong in masses.

-Gastraphetes are extra long ranged and have high attack, low fire rate, which differentiates them from other ranged troops but they might need a bit more special role. Very weak when unprotected.

-Rams are heavily anti-structure, Ballistas anti-structure that can become anti-troop as well with fire rate upgrades and Onagers anti-structure with aoe (especially good vs low collision units like pikemen and archers).

-Cavalry Skirmishers are very fast and slightly bonused vs ranged infantry, workers and support (representing raiding/skirmish/light cavalry good vs anything light).

-Heavy Cavalry is not a specialized unit, but they're fast and very powerful. They should be effective vs anything but anti-cav.

-Elephants are expensive tanks, melee aoe and anti-structure, best stopped by tank + ranged/siege and secondarily by anti-cav. They'll also run amok when damaged (turn neutral hostile) when I re-add the trigger.

Overall cavalry is powerful, or at least will be if it's currently not properly balanced. More expensive, slower to train, limited due to extra effort/cost to build stables compared to other troop structures. A generally less numerous and more elite force like in reality. Seleucids get the Hellenistic Catafracts and Armored Elephants upgrades and they also get the default Macedonian cavalry bonus so their cavalry is potentially the strongest amongst the first civs and subfactions.

I think it's a system that can work with fine-tuning here and there, without adding extra hard counters.

Edit: Just finished a game vs AIs with the most important changes applied (unit, building and tech stats altered). It felt much better, there's enough time to micro your units in most cases now.

While this is good and all.. i think you need to make use of the armor system that warcraft has. ANY good melee mod will need to do this. This is how i use it in my map:

Attacks:
Normal (normal): Used by most melee units.
Projectile (piercing): Used by archers and skirmishers.
Spear (magic): Used by spearmen (duh) and some cavalry types.
Siege (siege): Used by siege units.

Armors:
Light armored (small): recieves 50% extra damage from normal attacks.
This is used by all ranged units.
Heavy armored (medium) recieves 50% extra damage from projectile attacks.
This is used by all melee units.
Mounted (large) recieves 50% extra damage from spear attacks, and 50% less damage from projectile attacks.
This is used by all cavalry.

Just go to advanced>gameplay constants and get this fixed. You can edit how they appear in advanced>game interface. The BEST thing about this is that if you ever want to nerf units vs buildings again, you can just reduce their damage to "fortified" in the gameplay constants and ALL units will be nerfed at once.

Think of how it makes sense: it is hard to hit a mounted units with projectiles since they travel fast. Horses cannot dodge or parry spears in the same way as swordsmen can. This has nothing to do with how much "damage" either would make, it is just a basic difficulty in fighting that scenario. If the bonuses are limited to 50%, then neither can be said to be "hardcounter" either. And it makes for some really cool combos, such as skirmishers having mounted armor and projectile attacks. People would instantly see in which situations these are good!

Finally, i think ballistas should not be siege units, but rather anti infantry (using projectile damage), with extra bonuses against elephants. Just imagine an elephant skewered by such a massive projectile! And such an easy target! Also, i think you should utilize the "line damage" feature that warcraft has, letting ballistas damage units in a line. Really, elephants can be strong against everything, as long as you have this counter.
 
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Can I be tester?
Sure, as long as you don't share, upload, edit the map. Want to face me in a game in EU b.net for starters?

While this is good and all.. i think you need to make use of the armor system that warcraft has. ANY good melee mod will need to do this. This is how i use it in my map:

Attacks:
Normal (normal): Used by most melee units.
Projectile (piercing): Used by archers and skirmishers.
Spear (magic): Used by spearmen (duh) and some cavalry types.
Siege (siege): Used by siege units.

Armors:
Light armored (small): recieves 50% extra damage from normal attacks.
This is used by all ranged units.
Heavy armored (medium) recieves 50% extra damage from projectile attacks.
This is used by all melee units.
Mounted (large) recieves 50% extra damage from spear attacks, and 50% less damage from projectile attacks.
This is used by all cavalry.

Just go to advanced>gameplay constants and get this fixed. You can edit how they appear in advanced>game interface. The BEST thing about this is that if you ever want to nerf units vs buildings again, you can just reduce their damage to "fortified" in the gameplay constants and ALL units will be nerfed at once.

Think of how it makes sense: it is hard to hit a mounted units with projectiles since they travel fast. Horses cannot dodge or parry spears in the same way as swordsmen can. This has nothing to do with how much "damage" either would make, it is just a basic difficulty in fighting that scenario. If the bonuses are limited to 50%, then neither can be said to be "hardcounter" either. And it makes for some really cool combos, such as skirmishers having mounted armor and projectile attacks. People would instantly see in which situations these are good!

Finally, i think ballistas should not be siege units, but rather anti infantry (using projectile damage), with extra bonuses against elephants. Just imagine an elephant skewered by such a massive projectile! And such an easy target! Also, i think you should utilize the "line damage" feature that warcraft has, letting ballistas damage units in a line. Really, elephants can be strong against everything, as long as you have this counter.

I don't think there's only a single working way for balance, nor that mine isn't balanceable.

Light units are lower on hp so they'll die easier anyway. And I don't think they should be weaker to melee, just weak in general. Ranged/light cavalry are good against them since they can catch them easily and I don't see what other unit should be especially bonused vs agile infantry. Heavy cavalry will also be cost effective against them due to speed + power.

Heavy infantry units will have better armor/hp and them being weaker to ranged makes no sense, especially in ancient warfare, most missiles were more effective as disruption and cohesion breakers back then, rather than mass killers. The real killing happened in the melee clash or during the rooting (that won't be simulated). A notable exception to this are the skirmishers who could inflict more damage to heavy infantry with their javelins by closing in than the light arrows of antiquity, so they are bonused vs heavy/melee infantry.

Cavalry indeed take extra damage from spears but they have strong enough defenses to not need extra protection vs missiles, and high enough speed to take very few hits while closing in.

My attack types are actually the same, besides not distinguishing melee from ranged since the bonuses are handled in another way.

You're right that the gameplay constants way is the easiest to edit (and that counters don't need to be hard), but it won't work that well in my case. For example I don't want spears and pikes to have the same anti-cav bonus, and I might need a third or forth different anti-cav attack in the future, I can't go on adding extra attack types, demolish works better (besides siege due to an aoe-attack ground bug). That being said I'm not 100% against something closer to your ways, I just think I'll try this as it looks like it has potential to me and fall back to classic WC3 combat if it doesn't work.

On Ballistas this sounds interesting (and I'll check about the line attack and the bug as well), but shouldn't the onagers be bonused against Elephants as well due to massive projectiles? Plus elephants are large targets for siege, but more mobile and smaller than blocks of infantry. Also ballistas already work as anti-unit in general when they have protection, especially with their attack speed upgrades, and they have the biggest range so they might in practice be the anti-siege as well, not sure they should be extra bonused. Gastraphetes, (hand ballista) might come into play somewhere around here and pick some of those roles. Keep in mind that not all civs will have Ranged Siege or Gastraphetes, so there will be a need of other ways to stop Elephants as well. That's why I currently have anti-cav as semi-counters to them, with a durable unit tanking and ranged killing as the most viable option.

Do you think I should keep the 5 rank veterancy skill for all units adding 3% dodge/critical per rank? Is it resource draining when calculated for many units?
 
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Ugh, well i for one can see several weaknesses in this approach.

First of all, it makes your balance system very hard for users to comprehend. When i play a new melee game, the first thing i do is always to look at what attacks counter what armor types. It is much harder to spot how subtle differences in collision size or movement speed would have impact on combat. And by the way, if it is wrong to use damage tables as balance, how could it be better to use collision size? It is not like the syntagma was the only packed formation in ancient times.

Second, it might make the game very focused on micromanagement. If ranges, speeds and positions are so important, players will have a much harder time using their units correctly.

I kinda feel like the result of this is that all units seem pretty much the same. Like, why would you have both ballistas, onagers and rams if they all serve the same purpouse? Ballistas are not effective at knocking down walls but were instead used to break formations. They are also much more accurate than onagers, which is why i suggested they could be used to target elephants (try hitting an elephant with a catapult rock... it would be harder than you think!).

The reason i suggested a damage bonus for archers vs melee infantry is that in real life, it would usually take much longer for the infantry to close into melee range than it does in an RTS game like this. It makes it hard to represent the actual value of arcers/javelinists versus infantry. There is also the fact that arrows, in all times, have always been able to penetrate armor almost regardless of thickness. The same cannot be said of swords.

It would not be impossible to combine the two methods, in World in Flames some units also have damage bonuses against specific units apart from the basic damage type.


About the rank: it is not resource drawing, please keep it. It is a nice feature.
 
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Ugh, well i for one can see several weaknesses in this approach.

First of all, it makes your balance system very hard for users to comprehend. When i play a new melee game, the first thing i do is always to look at what attacks counter what armor types. It is much harder to spot how subtle differences in collision size or movement speed would have impact on combat. And by the way, if it is wrong to use damage tables as balance, how could it be better to use collision size? It is not like the syntagma was the only packed formation in ancient times.

I'm improving the tooltips so you won't see the kind of mess you saw, with some units saying "basic melee infantry" and others having a mess of a text like the pikeman. Something like "good in masses" will suffice instead of describing collision mechanics to help people get the basics and see the rest in practice. Syntagma (pike phalanx) certainly wasn't the only packed formation, but it was probably the most packed and certainly the most cohesion reliant. I like how the pikemen work, it think they're fairly unique this way with low collision, "long" melee range and slow turn rate and I don't plan to change them besides balancing, unless something brilliant comes up. Other units are more subject to change.

Second, it might make the game very focused on micromanagement. If ranges, speeds and positions are so important, players will have a much harder time using their units correctly.

I tend to like macro more as well, but since WC3 is designed for micro and many people prefer it, I'm trying to find a happy medium. It will give a slight boost to micro players, but they won't have the auto-economy of warcraft so macro players can keep up. At least that's the current plan.

I kinda feel like the result of this is that all units seem pretty much the same. Like, why would you have both ballistas, onagers and rams if they all serve the same purpouse? Ballistas are not effective at knocking down walls but were instead used to break formations. They are also much more accurate than onagers, which is why i suggested they could be used to target elephants (try hitting an elephant with a catapult rock... it would be harder than you think!).

Ram is tough, melee, with a transport capacity and only hits buildings, Ballista has the longest range and highest attack speed and onager a good range and AOE, so they're already fairly different. Ballistas were indeed more effective vs troops, but I'd like to give them a siege ability, even if lesser than that of the other 2 siege units. After all they're still better than troops at that. Fair point about accuracy though and I'm considering all your suggestions here. So far I'm for:

Ram: heavy anti-structure only
Ballista: anti-troop (infantry and elephants?), secondary anti-structure
Onager: anti-structure, secondary anti-troop aoe (pikes and archers mostly)
Gastraphetes: ? So far they are an elite late game ranged unit with high attack, low attack speed, like mini-siege without siege capacity. Could also remove them since they were quite rare but I'd rather not to.

The reason i suggested a damage bonus for archers vs melee infantry is that in real life, it would usually take much longer for the infantry to close into melee range than it does in an RTS game like this. It makes it hard to represent the actual value of arcers/javelinists versus infantry. There is also the fact that arrows, in all times, have always been able to penetrate armor almost regardless of thickness. The same cannot be said of swords.

Javelinists (skirmishers) currently own infantry, I just slightly nerfed their hp and will see how it goes. Archers serve a different role, general long ranged support so they aren't bonused vs anything. But Imo ranged attacks are relatively much higher than they would be in reality and this makes up for the lost range/time. I've read quite a bit about ancient arrows generally being light and ineffective, especially vs armor. A prime example being almost hoplite only greek armies owning archer heavy persian armies with minor loses, and ancient archers in general not being able to inflict heavy casualties on heavy infantry unless safe and resupplied. You'll always find various points of view on that aspect, but since this seems the most logical to me, and I don't want to make archers and skirmishers the same unit, skirmishers will be anti-infantry specialists and archers all around units that will need protection or huge masses to work effectively (again open to suggestions though).

It would not be impossible to combine the two methods, in World in Flames some units also have damage bonuses against specific units apart from the basic damage type.

About the rank: it is not resource drawing, please keep it. It is a nice feature.

As I said I currently can't see why it can't be balanced the way I try. It will need more creativity and is slightly more micro orientated but besides correctable "mistakes" I might make on the way I believe the rest is mostly a mater of personal preferences. Anyway in the end I am for a relatively balanced, enjoyable game, not high end competition.

Ok, I'll keep the ranks:)

^Agreed for the most part, you can give Pikemen a special ability that indicates they don't deal more damage to Cavalry unlike their type does. A DDS can help well with this.

Pikes will actually do even more damage to cavalry than spears. I've got a design document but it's been quite a while since I last updated it. Mostly keeping notes with needed changes currently.
 
In the peloponnesian wars, spartan hoplites were in many cases defeated by the skilled athenian archers, often because of the rough terrain in Greece. Like i said though, given your description, i am puzzled over which situations i'd want to use archers in or why i'd ever prefer them over skirmishers. If skirmishers are strong against infantry, perhaps make it so that archers are strong against skirmishers?

I think ballistas should use normal attack type. Give them line damage just like the Glaive Thrower in warcraft. Also add a damage bonus when used against elephants.

I noticed that all siege units are late-game tech. For this reason i hope you make it easier to destroy buildings using regular infantry.

The key to good game design is to make sure every unit serves a unique purpouse. You can't just go "in history they used a little bit of this and a little bit of that", it needs to make sense and the player has to be clear about what units to use when.

By the way, i uploaded a model for the watchtower!
 
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In the peloponnesian wars, spartan hoplites were in many cases defeated by the skilled athenian archers, often because of the rough terrain in Greece. Like i said though, given your description, i am puzzled over which situations i'd want to use archers in or why i'd ever prefer them over skirmishers. If skirmishers are strong against infantry, perhaps make it so that archers are strong against skirmishers?

That would mostly be peltasts, at least in the battle accounts I've read. Also keep in mind that hoplites didn't always have heavy armor, there were various types of them. I think it wasn't until the boadkin arrow when arrows could penetrate good quality armor. Even linothrorax is said to have worked wonders against missiles, let alone muscle cuirass. You'd prefer archers over skirmishers cause they're better when massed, have almost double the range and are slightly more cost effective vs anything but infantry. They also get a fire attack when upgraded which makes them do full damage to structures. I think they're pretty strong as it is, I've tested them on several scenarios.

I think ballistas should use normal attack type. Give them line damage just like the Glaive Thrower in warcraft. Also add a damage bonus when used against elephants.

I'm thinking about that, might as well to test it. Another idea is to keep the siege damage, but lower the attack, and add a x4 or something multiplier vs infantry and elephants. That way they will be ok vs structures, good vs inf/eles and weak vs cavalry and ranged. And very different from onagers. Ideas?

I noticed that all siege units are late-game tech. For this reason i hope you make it easier to destroy buildings using regular infantry.

Town defenses aren't that strong early on, as there are no forts before the siege weapons. Towers are tough but with relatively low firepower, so if you overwhelm a players army, he will eventually lose even if their structures last a bit. Not totally confident here, will see how it works.

The key to good game design is to make sure every unit serves a unique purpouse. You can't just go "in history they used a little bit of this and a little bit of that", it needs to make sense and the player has to be clear about what units to use when.

I'm trying to turn history into game mechanics the best I can, but though my own vision. Thanks for the constant stream of suggestions, much of it will be used anyway and I'll think about the rest. But I want to try some things. Else I could just copy one of the proven formulas and be more relaxed about it.

By the way, i uploaded a model for the watchtower!

Cheers, it looks great once more!
 
In the battle of Sphacteria there are many accounts of the athenian missile troops being mostly archers, the spartans are known to have excused their defeat with the fact that their opponents used "womens weapons". You'd also be surprised at how well an arrow can penetrate even bronze armor, however, the large shields of the time made things more difficult. In either case, you are right that archers played a very small role in ancient warfare, they were mostly used by the persians, on chariots, or for defending walls.

One thing about the pelasts - in many cases, the purpouse of the javelin was to stick into the enemys shields, forcing them to drop it, as it could often be hard to pull out. What if skirmishers would, rather than having bonus damage, have an attack that temporarily reduces the targets armor? Just a suggestion, but i think it could make for some cool strategy.

Finally, regarding the wall question - i have a solution. The idea is to set a base ground level for the map at a point where the ground is the highest. Then, once you create a wall, you set its fly height to [max terrain height] - [local terrain height]. This way, all wall pieces will be at the exact same level. I think it is possible to set a buildings fly height if you set its movement type to "fly". Otherwise, you can replace the building on creation with a destructable. This is kind of an ugly hack, but it could also be good for other purpouses, such as units not being too distracted with attacking walls all the time.
It is possible to get the terrain height through a quick jass line which i can provide. It is very, very easy to use it in a GUI context. The only question is how the wall would look, i have no ideas on how to design an ancient greek wall.
 
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In the battle of Sphacteria there are many accounts of the athenian missile troops being mostly archers, the spartans are known to have excused their defeat with the fact that their opponents used "womens weapons". You'd also be surprised at how well an arrow can penetrate even bronze armor, however, the large shields of the time made things more difficult. In either case, you are right that archers played a very small role in ancient warfare, they were mostly used by the persians, on chariots, or for defending walls.

In Sphacteria the biggest part of the Athenian force would be sailors and rowers equiped as "psiloi" (usually very light javeliners, sometimes fewer archers or slingers). Archers we always a small minority in Athenian and most greek/hellenistic armies (besides the Cretans who were mostly archers, and Macedonians/Successors who sometimes had a little larger percentage). Keep in mind that they were at an enormous numerical advantage and still it took them too long to defeat the few Spartans. Shields indeed played a large part in protection, so no matter if we disagree about armor, ancient heavy infantry had large, quality shields that would stop arrows. Pikemen would be somewhat more vulnerable in that aspect, but Alexander's "low cost" victories against Persian archer-heavy armies again point to my view that armor was also vital (the phalanx front rankers were well armored but still had small shields, the back rankers had more distance and pikes overhead to protect them deflecting some of the arrows). Archers were used a lot in the east in general, but indeed in the west and north they were limited, for various reasons. Chariots we mostly a relic in the classical and hellenistic era.

Remember also that peltasts were the main reason hoplite-only armies became obsolete, not archers, and I think most scholars agree on that. And by peltasts I mean the specialised greek troops influenced by thracian warfare and other similar units, not any light javelinman. Which gives another Idea, the peltast upgrade giving the anti-infantry damage bonus. However, I like how it works now. Spears are dominant in age1, with archers as optional support (only archer is still possible, but not that effective at least in offense). In age2 with peltasts entering the fray, spear only armies become weaker, and you'll be forced to use more troop types, like in reality.

One thing about the pelasts - in many cases, the purpouse of the javelin was to stick into the enemys shields, forcing them to drop it, as it could often be hard to pull out. What if skirmishers would, rather than having bonus damage, have an attack that temporarily reduces the targets armor? Just a suggestion, but i think it could make for some cool strategy.

That would mostly be the roman pilla, used as sidearms by roman swordsmen which had a specific shape and design for that purpose, not normal peltast/velites etc javelins. However this sounds very interesting. But it could have side effects as peltasts being almost a mandatory debuff any player should use. This could be given to Gastraphetes perhaps with their heavier than normal and higher velocity arrows, as they also are late game and more expensive than peltasts. Any chance you could make a slinger model btw? There's not even one for wc3 and they are interesting for the ancient era.

Finally, regarding the wall question - i have a solution. The idea is to set a base ground level for the map at a point where the ground is the highest. Then, once you create a wall, you set its fly height to [max terrain height] - [local terrain height]. This way, all wall pieces will be at the exact same level. I think it is possible to set a buildings fly height if you set its movement type to "fly". Otherwise, you can replace the building on creation with a destructable. This is kind of an ugly hack, but it could also be good for other purpouses, such as units not being too distracted with attacking walls all the time.
It is possible to get the terrain height through a quick jass line which i can provide. It is very, very easy to use it in a GUI context. The only question is how the wall would look, i have no ideas on how to design an ancient greek wall.
Sounds interesting. Something square, so it doesn't need directional triggers, similar to the age of empires 1 wall connectors, with your building textures could work.
 
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