[Altered Melee] Ancient Empires

[Pson]

Pson do u Play AOE3

everyone loves AoE3

I've played it a bit and I like it, but besides graphics I think the older games were better. I'm also more into ancient history so I'm not that fascinated by it's era that much.

Btw I also have a playable "Medieval Empires" alpha map which I don't think I'll finish. It's simpler than this one and largely an AOE II copy. I think Byzantines and Spanish are finished and I've started the Turks. If someone would like to take over its development I wouldn't mind.

I think that is made up for by the Ctrl groups, so it will be how fast reflexes are to press the group hotkeys.

The 12 unit limit? I kinda hate it since it favors micro which is not my forte, but WC3 has by far the best editor so i decided to make this here.

 

[Pson]

New map wip version:

- An attempt to make naval combat slightly more important and games slightly shorter.
- So far testing shows it should work better with less players than the previous one. The AIs also seem to like it more.
- Probably needs more trees and detail.
- Each time the map loads some creeps are replaced by other types. For example, you won't always find horses or sheep in the exact same region, but they will still be in an equal distribution for all players. Together with the randomized buildings and other changes to come it should offer more replayability and reduce the effectiveness of copy-paste strategies and build orders.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Luv it

 

[Fingolfin]

The new terrain looks absolutely beautiful. I am baffled by how you managed to make it so symmetrical, did you use the heightmap tool? The layout seems strategically interesting too.

I agree you'll need some more wood though, in most games i've played, the map gets deforested quite quickly. Also, i feel like players who start on the same island are a bit close to eachother... are they supposed to be allied? If not, you should consider putting them on opposite corners.

 

[Vinz]

I think increasing tree health would do, while preserving space.

 

[Ragnoras]

Yes! increase the treehealth to about 500 - 700, that'lll work!

 

[Pson]

Luv it

The new terrain looks absolutely beautiful. I am baffled by how you managed to make it so symmetrical, did you use the heightmap tool? The layout seems strategically interesting too.

I agree you'll need some more wood though, in most games i've played, the map gets deforested quite quickly. Also, i feel like players who start on the same island are a bit close to eachother... are they supposed to be allied? If not, you should consider putting them on opposite corners.

I think increasing tree health would do, while preserving space.

Yes! increase the treehealth to about 500 - 700, that'lll work!

Thanks for the kind words I made it symetrical by designing 1/4 of it first, and then enlarging the map and copy-pasting. I think it's a bit more strategic and even vs AI the games feel more different to each other.

I've added a little more trees, will see how it works and will possibly increase their health as well. 500+ sounds to much though.

So far only team players have spawned on the same island. I've also slightly increased their distance. Further testing will show if they need to be moved to the corners, I like it more this way though, more variety in starting locations/conditions without any serious imbalance. The issue I see so far is teamgames with very good town defenses, as the edges of two close bases join each other.

Another issue.. I've messed something in the triggers again and lategame lag and occasional crashes appeared once more.

Fin, is there any chance you have better resolution/less tiling textures for the dirt and grassdirt you gave me? They kinda downgrade the beauty of the grass textures and the trees.

Finally, for the next few hours, I'll be up for a game on Bnet if anyone is interested.

Edit: I've also had one more idea inspired by age of empires 3 and civilization.

City-states:

They would be added to the randomised building pool together with the mercenary camps and extra gold mines, representing civs that will be excuded from the main factions (like various greek city states, numidia, pontus, india, iberian tribes etc) They would either be capturable/destroyable or use the extra players left (9-12 and possibly neutral victim/extra). You would either capture them or ally them (if you chose not to destroy them) and they would add to your income, let you train or just gift you units and provide a couple of unique techs each. They would also have some defense in the form of creep camps or units spawned with an ability when they are under attack, and a possible way of capturing/forcing them to ally you would be defeating their army. Thoughts?

 

[Vinz]

Oh, the image didn't show for me earlier. I actually agree, some more tree borders wouldn't hurt. Otherwise a cool map overview.

 

[Fingolfin]

I am sorry, but i don't have any higher resolution for either. Frankly i think the resolution of the dirt texture is fine, but the grassdirt texture is quite poor due to the simplistic way in which it was made. I will try to remake it once i have time, i just started my first year at university to become a computer engineer (yay), so my schedule might be a bit tight.

 

[Heinvers]

New map wip version:

- An attempt to make naval combat slightly more important and games slightly shorter.
- So far testing shows it should work better with less players than the previous one. The AIs also seem to like it more.
- Probably needs more trees and detail.
- Each time the map loads some creeps are replaced by other types. For example, you won't always find horses or sheep in the exact same region, but they will still be in an equal distribution for all players. Together with the randomized buildings and other changes to come it should offer more replayability and reduce the effectiveness of copy-paste strategies and build orders.

Pretty lovely.

 

[Pson]

Oh, the image didn't show for me earlier. I actually agree, some more tree borders wouldn't hurt. Otherwise a cool map overview.

I've mostly added extras to existing bunches and increased tree health to 250 (up for 150). The AI that often had wood issues likes it a lot now, and late game eco management is recuded as well.

I am sorry, but i don't have any higher resolution for either. Frankly i think the resolution of the dirt texture is fine, but the grassdirt texture is quite poor due to the simplistic way in which it was made. I will try to remake it once i have time, i just started my first year at university to become a computer engineer (yay), so my schedule might be a bit tight.

Nice Take your time, I don't want to pressure you in any way and you've made half the map resources already. Agreed that the dirt one isn't that bad (still not as great as the grass), and alone it would work great for dessert maps.

Pretty lovely.

Thanks

I've also made a thread for trigger leak help. It also includes the current map version.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Pson have you played Rome: Total War?

 

[Pson]

Quite a lot I'd say


Here's the wip credits list as listed in the map:

Credits

Credits: General Info
If some of your resources is/was used in the map and I've missed you on the credit lists please contact me (Pson @ TheHiveWorkshop) and I will add you. You might find credits for currently unused resources, I've decided to include their creators as a small tribute to their effort and because even placeholders have helped a lot my motivation to work on the map.

Credits: Models/Skins
hiveworkshop.com
Wc3c.net
Xgm.ru
Fingolfin (some textures from 0 AD)
grunt
Deolrin
Mike
z00rtaz
Eubz
Zyne
Wandering Soul

Credits: Fixes/Triggers
GhostThruster
Hell_Master
Nichilus
DotCa
Huy60vn
Pinzu
Fingolfin

Credits: Icons/Artwork
0 AD (Pyreon, Mythos_Ruler)
Huy60vn
Ragnoras
BandolXD
CakeMaster

Credits: Playtesting
Fingolfin
Tashadan
Vruhg071
uploader27
Pinzu
StoPCampinGn00b
shaMewalkeR

And a list of various ideas that might or might not be included. Feel free to discuss or use any of them in your maps (many should be useful in altered melee or strategy/risk maps).

Gameplay/Misc:

- Rank up displayed by an inventory item instead (allowing more stat options, not sure cause it selects holding units individually)
- Gift to ally button for capturable animals (and more?)
- Converting workers replaces them with your own (to avoid access to other techtrees when more diverse factions are added)
- Villager bonus vs buildings tech
- Skirmish mode for ranged units (minimum range and togglable barrage to attack in melee)
- Burning Oil tech for towers (add minimum range, this adds a barrage with melee range)
- Make AI trade in its market when low on some resource.
- Government system choice for some civs (oligarchic favors cavalry and elites, democratic favors line infantry and economy)
- Re-add sea trade routes (capturable/periodic income. Carthage/Athens sea trade routes upgradeable).
- Ramming tech for ships
- Passive City-States (capturable/destroyable). Capturing them allows unique units and techs, trainable or periodically granted. Destroying them lets you build your own colonies. Macedonian ones train settler soldiers (pikemen? greek/thracian/galatian) or add this ability to their villas with an upgrade. Or military settlers tech (buff units or allow villas/colinies to spawn periodic defense units like the forgotten one.
- Ships do extra damage to ships
- Fortress trains mercenaries (requires docks)
- Changing biomes at map start. Further customization/randomization of animals and fishing regions.
- Re-Add capturable resources needed for some units/techs or increasing build limits (iron, horses, elephants etc)
- Walls spawned per small square piece with "build a tiny" ability
- Start the game with scout towers (mode?)
- Charge ability (strong autocast with long timer for melee cavalry)
- Add passive buttons for all passives
- Hide garrison flags for more space (needs testing)
- Experiment with homing attacks
- Use modified zeppelins as transport ships to check if AI uses them
- Tall grass/ruins hide troops/light troops
- Relics giving auras to temples when carried there
- Pile of junk treasures across the map

Civs

- All civs granting team bonuses
- Carthage Merc Camps allow double mercenaries
- Carthage each naval tech gives a ship
- Carthage Merc barracks that costs gold
- Rome Bread and Games tech increases gather rate but tougher slaves when they revolt.
- Persians periodically spawn free weak units (maybe choice of which ones by choosing a satrapy.)
- Macedon free pikemen with each barracks from age 3
- Macedon Pikemen train in groups if player has the extra resources
- Spartan Agoge tech also adds feared effect to spartan spearmen
- Civ? Each gather tech gives a villager
- Civ/Taxation tech? farms/houses periodicaly add gold
- Civ? age advance grant units/resources/a free tech/villagers
- Civ extra gather tech at academy
- Civ destroyed buildings spawn militia infantry
- Civ with batch training (scrapped cause they won't follow rally points)
- Civ with villagers/other units spawned instead of being trained, with limit, tech to increase spawn rate- Civ were peasants cost wood
- Civ where peasants cost no pop but more gold + limit + less hp
- Civ where peasants cost lumber
- Civ double pop house that spawn villager on built
- Civ techs refund once completed

Modes/Options

- Loot mode: killer of a player gets his remaining resources
- Wonder mode: Build and hold a wonder for sometime to win
- Team mode: Allows in game alliances
- Fixed teams Mode: Alliances can't change
- Vassalization: Allows surrendering player to stay in game but tributes a percentage of his income to victor.
- Starting Phase mode: Choose the starting tier
- Maximum Phase mode: Choose the maximum tier
- Migration/Nomad Modes: Start on tiny islands or random locations with no town center
- Extra/High resources/Deathmatch: Increase in starting resources.

Maps/Campaigns

- Delphi (Temple of Apollo in the middle high ground with income, heal and large vision to owner. Other pathways are only narrow passes at map corners. Horses on surrounding plains. - Could also add an oracle mode to the main map with the temple in the middle.)
- Thermopylae: Sea with a passage on top left, narrow mountain passage on bottom right
- Nile: Sea/Delta north side with buildable lighthouse, long river to the south.
- North Africa: north to south shore, forest, mountains, desert
- Oasis: most wood around middle lake
- Italy: Long peninsula with water on both sides
- Aegean Sea: Many Islands and possibly land on east and west
- Silk Road: Capturable trade routes adding to income
- Scythian Plain: Flatland
- Many more
- Various historical campaigns like Persian wars, Peloponnesian Wars, Alexander's Conquest, Successor Wars, Pyrrhic Wars, Syrian Wars, Punic Wars, Gallic Wars, Roman Civil Wars etc)
- Any of those would probably need a lot of help since my free time is going to be more limited this year.

Possible Major Change

- Historical character choice on each age up granting various bonuses and renaming the civs name when AI: for example Romans - Romans (Caesar).
- Kinda like how the macedonian dynastic change works now, but for all phases and factions. And possibly linked to phase up or free tech instead of how it works now. Think advisors of AOE III or god choice in AOM.
- Example Athens:
Town - Miltiades (spearmen) / Themistocles (ships and buildings)
City - Pericles (income and buildings) / Alcibiades (cheaper town centers?)
Imperial - Iphicrates (all infantry speed) / Demosthenes (some free techs and buildings?) / Leosthenes (cavalry)

 

[Ragnoras]

Can i help you make Campaigns?.. i have onw in mind...

 

[Pson]

It's still a bit early for that. I'd love to have stable gameplay mechanics, balance and leakless triggers first so there's no need to edit each map all the time. But I'll consider your help when the time is right.

 

[Ragnoras]

ok... finish that up!... i have a great and big plans for this Bad Boy....(Ya Map)

 

[Pson]

And what plans are those?

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Very interesting ideas. I hope you'll be able to pull this off. Good luck

 

[Ragnoras]

I tell ya, soon enough,,,,

 

[Sunreaver]

How many percent is finish now ?

 

[Pson]

Very interesting ideas. I hope you'll be able to pull this off. Good luck

Thanks Not all of them are to be used though. Many don't fit with each other and current features and some of them require simply too much work.

I tell ya, soon enough,,,,

Ok.

How many percent is finish now ?

If you count out the extra 3 civs, which are mostly a matter of missing models, else I'd have them ready in about a week, I'd say it's at about 70-80% now.

 

[Vinz]

- Pile of junk treasures across the map

This should be totally used.

Also if I may suggest some wandering mythic creatures (Lernaean Hydra, Nemean Lion, Minotaur, Great Boar, etc.) that can be captured/enslaved/killed for food/money.

 

[Pson]

This should be totally used.

Also if I may suggest some wandering mythic creatures (Lernaean Hydra, Nemean Lion, Minotaur, Great Boar, etc.) that can be captured/enslaved/killed for food/money.

The first is easy and under consideration.
On the second, people need to understand this tries to be a realism/historical game. Those would only fit in the mythology mode, probably as units trained at the temple, with maybe some as creeps as well.

I'm currently waiting for trigger fixes by GhostThrusher before adding new things. I'd also need an expert triggerer cause while he has simplified many triggers, the late game lag/occasional crash doesn't seem to go away.

 

[Vinz]

Oh right.. sorry, I forgot.

 

[Pson]

Any clue why this trigger doesn't work?

• Lose Herds
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Dies
  • Conditions
    • ((Triggering unit) is A structure) Equal to True
  • Actions
    • Set UnitGroup = (Units owned by (Owner of (Triggering unit)) matching (((Matching unit) is A structure) Equal to True))
    • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
      • If - Conditions
        • (Number of units in UnitGroup) Equal to 0
      • Then - Actions
        • Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_UnitGroup)
        • Set UnitGroup = (Units owned by (Owner of (Triggering unit)))
        • Unit Group - Pick every unit in UnitGroup and do (Actions)
          • Loop - Actions
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
                  • Conditions
                    • (Unit-type of (Picked unit)) Equal to Chicken
                    • (Unit-type of (Picked unit)) Equal to Sheep
                    • (Unit-type of (Picked unit)) Equal to Elephant (change for AI, NE)
                    • (Unit-type of (Picked unit)) Equal to Horse (change for AI, NE)
              • Then - Actions
                • Unit - Change ownership of (Picked unit) to Neutral Hostile and Change color
              • Else - Actions
      • Else - Actions
        • Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_UnitGroup)

Placing last

• Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_UnitGroup)

after

• Unit - Change ownership of (Picked unit) to Neutral Hostile and Change color

doesn't work either.

It's supposed to turn the capturable animals of a player left without structures to neutral hostile, so that you don't have to search for worthless units all over the map to win.

 

[Vinz]

May not solve, but is more efficient; use Triggering Player over Owner of Triggering Unit.

Also store anything you use more than twice into a variable. In this case Picked Unit is referenced 5 times. Calling a variable is faster than calling functions like Picked Unit.

 

[Pson]

May not solve, but is more efficient; use Triggering Player over Owner of Triggering Unit.

Also store anything you use more than twice into a variable. In this case Picked Unit is referenced 5 times. Calling a variable is faster than calling functions like Picked Unit.

Hearing various opinions of more experienced triggerers (compared to me at least) has got me confused over what is more efficient.

Anyway, making this work should mean all desired triggers are functional in the current version, but the map would still need a check for a mysterious, so far, cause of late game lag and sometimes ctd.

New Sig by Cakemaster for anyone wanting to use:

 

[Vinz]

Yay! Finally I can wear it. I will check the triggers when I have time.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Yeah, me too
Can't wait

 

[Vinz]

Sorry, made an outline mistake (actually, neglected a text outline). Update with more clarity and a semi transparent texture for the text.

 

[Pson]

General balancing updates:
- Reduced Catapult Trireme AOE (it was extremely effective vs land units).
- Reduced the damage bonus of impale vs heavy infantry and War Elephants to x1.5 from x2.

Lategame balance:
- Slightly increased Spearmen hit point gain through techs for Greek factions.
- Slightly reduced Swordsmen movement speed gain through techs for Romans.
- Slightly reduced Cavalry Skirmisher movement speed gain through techs for all factions.

Late/mid game balance:
- Having already increased all unit hp to prevent them from dying too fast, didn't mean this worked great for all the game duration. Still as the game advanced the death rates started to accelerate due to massed units, elite units and techs in general improving offense more than defense.
- In an attempt to reduce this and allow for some extra time for tactical movements, each phase up tech (advance to next tier) now also increases all unit and structure HP by 10%. This might need further adjustment.

I'm also thinking of adding food limit choices:
- 100 food limit: 20% reduced health for structures (to make up for having less units), should allow better micro and faster paced games
- 200 food limit: 10% reduced health for structures, intermediate.
- 300 food limit: normal health for structures, better chances for long, epic games with the downside of the late game being partly a troop-spam-fest.

@Cakes: Looks better indeed. I'd still advice you to do as I suggested in the pm if you have the patience.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Those food choice limits sound good
I'd probably go with 100 or 200.

 

[Vinz]

Oh, you mean use the font for all letters? I actually did but it seems to work only for capital letters.

If so, do you prefer the current text sizes, or should they be equal?

 

[Pson]

Oh that's probably cause ancient Greek had only capital letters. I'd say use them capitals, and try what you like for the size, I don't have a strong preference.

 

[Vinz]

Hopefully this one looks okay.

 

[Pson]

Yeah much better

 

[Pson]

Updated first post to make it less.. ancient.. (credits, more recent screenshots and various little details).


Upcoming feature: Game modes

Note that some of them have several levels beyond those displayed. Triggers for them are not done yet.

Clicky

 

[Vinz]

Those look very awesome!

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Still need a triggerer to check over your work?

 

[Pson]

Still need a triggerer to check over your work?

Sure, cakes will also check it, but more wouldn't hurt since my issue seems hard to spot. I could also use help implementing the new triggers I have in mind (like the ones for the game modes since I'd need a lot of research to make them efficient).

In case anyone was wondering, first post wasn't updated until now.. I mistook preview changes for having it posted and closed the tab

 

[Tal'Rarity]

I'll make mostly anything you ask, just need the map. =)

 

[Pson]

Any updates on the trigger check guys?

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Any updates on the trigger check guys?

Only one-time triggers to free up memory otherwise looks rather clean to me. Will triple-check again sometime soon.

 

[Fingolfin]

One thing i recently learned about lag-buildup: some abilities will act strange if you set "duration" to 0. This especially applies to spells based on Shockwave. If you have any such abilities in your map, try setting the duration to 0.01 instead. Spells based on Channel will be fine though.

 

[Vinz]

Shockwave shouldn't be used at all. :/

The deformation created by it causes desyncs sometimes, especially in the late game. That might be the problem all along. I suggest Carrion Swarm.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Don't use terrain deformation abilities at all. Like Mythic said, Carrion Swarm.

 

[Pson]

Only one-time triggers to free up memory otherwise looks rather clean to me. Will triple-check again sometime soon.

One thing i recently learned about lag-buildup: some abilities will act strange if you set "duration" to 0. This especially applies to spells based on Shockwave. If you have any such abilities in your map, try setting the duration to 0.01 instead. Spells based on Channel will be fine though.

Shockwave shouldn't be used at all. :/

The deformation created by it causes desyncs sometimes, especially in the late game. That might be the problem all along. I suggest Carrion Swarm.

Don't use terrain deformation abilities at all. Like Mythic said, Carrion Swarm.

I don't have any such things in the map. All this seems a bit strange to me, I thought it should be trigger leak issues. Is there any chance the memory gets heavy from the detailed imported textures or something like that?

 

[Sunreaver]

So when will this be release ?

 

[Pson]

Some things need minor polishing, the game modes need their triggers to be implemented and there needs to be some fix on the late game lag and occasional crash issue. Then it will be ready for a beta release.

For a full release I'd like to have several more models for some of the existing units and structures and even more if I am to include the three remaining civs. Also some more extensive playtesting and balancing.

During the following days I can't work on it though, I'm pretty busy with other things and especially joining a new band and having many songs to learn for the upcoming lives. After that the beta shouldn't be very far unless there's no fix for the lag/crash issues. I guess it's a matter of weeks.

 

[danasius]

Watch out for the triggers and functions that execute periodically. If they are meant to be executed indefinitely, increase the efficiency of such triggers/functions, and i'm not even talking about leaks, for instance: don't create and destroy a group each 2 seconds, and try to refreshing it instead. Also avoid GUI in such trigg's/func's.
You may also want to try and test the fps while playing your map.

I hope this may help you.