[Altered Melee] Ancient Empires

[Pson]

After a quite long time of not posting here and having ups and downs in development, my Ancient Empires map has reached a state that only some playtesting is needed before an early release. There was a thread for it but since it's closed by now, and the map has some major changes anyway, I'm starting a new one.

Ancient Empires
Created by Pson


Map Info & Download:

In short, it's an ancient era historal RTS, influenced by the Age of Empires series as well as other strategy games like 0 A.D.. Get the first beta version here.


Features:

- 8 playable civs. 5 are ready (Romans, Spartans, Athenians, Carthaginians and Macedonians) and 3 more to come (Persians, Celts, Scythians).

- AI for all playable civs.

- Increased focus on economy and overall room for more playstyles, with turtling, rushing, expansion, booming etc all being viable options.

- New armor system similar to the one in Age of Empires II.

- (Mostly) Soft counters representing realistic unit functions and strengths/weakenesses.

- Units ranking up by killing enemies.

- A huge range of technologies, both shared and civ-specific.

- Naval Combat serving the purpose of capturing fishing regions, which reduce the need for housing and can keep increasing the food cap after the farm limit is reached.

- Randomized neutral buildings and creeps adding more variety to each match.

- Capturable animals serving as an easy but fragile food boost or allowing the construction of stables without imports at the market.

- Many game modes (See Screenshots).

- Much more t.b.a. You can check some of them or some (possibly) scrapped features in the old thread

Civ Attributes:

The 5 civs ready for now are listed under the human race and called collectively Mediterraneans and include:

- ROMANS: Sword Infantry get +1 damage and +10 hit points. Main upgrades give bonuses to Infantry, structures and mechanical units.

- SPARTANS: Spearmen get +3 damage/+30 Hit Points and get limited to 1 per Farm. Main upgrades give bonuses to infantry, slaves and skirmishers.

- ATHENIANS: Workers get +1 gold capacity but starting gold is reduced by 50. Workers, Militia and buildings get +15% hit points. Each Athenian-specific Academy tech and each Phase researched grants one or two free Philosophers unit. Main upgrades give bonuses to ranged units, navy and structures.

- CARTHAGINIANS: Town Centers, Fortresses, Docks and Towers +50% hit points. All units and ships +150 line of sight. Main upgrades give bonuses to mercenaries, economy, structures and navy.

- MACEDONIANS: Stable units and Skirmishers get +1 damage and +10% movement speed. 3 Successor faction options with various bonuses each are unlocked for the Imperial Phase.

The 3 other Civs (Persians, Celts and Scythians) will have more distinct tech trees and models needed and are delayed for now.


Screenshots and Videos:

Screenshots

Image Description:
Find more here

AI Town attack and Leaderboard:

Slingers:

Current Map Layout (slightly edited since the screen was taken):

Game modes (several have multiple levels - submodes)

Here's the wip credits list as listed in the map::

Credits

Credits: General Info
If some of your resources is/was used in the map and I've missed you on the credit lists please contact me (Pson @ TheHiveWorkshop) and I will add you. You might find credits for currently unused resources, I've decided to include their creators as a small tribute to their effort and because even placeholders have helped a lot my motivation to work on the map.

Credits: Models/Skins
hiveworkshop.com
Wc3c.net
Xgm.ru
Fingolfin (some textures from 0 AD)
grunt
Deolrin
Mike
z00rtaz
Eubz
Zyne
Wandering Soul

Credits: Fixes/Triggers
GhostThruster
Hell_Master
Nichilus
DotCa
Huy60vn
Pinzu
Fingolfin

Credits: Icons/Artwork
0 AD (Pyreon, Mythos_Ruler)
Huy60vn
Ragnoras
BandolXD
CakeMaster

Credits: Playtesting
Fingolfin
Tashadan
Vruhg071
uploader27
Pinzu
StoPCampinGn00b
shaMewalkeR

I'm Looking For:

- Playtesters (the first alpha version is almost ready for release after some testing).

- Modelers (mostly for simple WC3 edits)

- A Good Triggerer (the map seems leak-free to my knowledge, but it shouldn't be, there's the odd late game crash)

- Any suggestions are welcome

Map Description Template Created by -Kobas-
Find more here: Map Description - Templates

 

[Fingolfin]

Sounds cool. You know, i've been working on a similar map based on the hellenistic era inspired by "Greece". It was gonna have the same races as you have, + seleucids and ptolemaic egypt. The art style is pretty different from wc3, but you can have a peak of the models here.

I think your concept sounds solid and i like that AI is part of your ambition. It is also good that you have gone for a clean and simple tech tree which is easy to pick up. One question though, how are you going to present the different unit caps? From the old thread i understood you wanted different caps for different animal types. Will this be shown on a multiboard or did you take it out completely?

Good luck with your project!

 

[Pson]

You've got some amazing and accurate models there, I wouldn't expect to see such for WC3! I'd definitely ask for them but they wouldn't fit with the rest (unless you're up for making more, then I'm up for making this a joint project). Seleucids and Ptolemaics (as well as Antigonids) will be in my map, the Macedonians can chose any of the 3 dynasties for different options in the late game.

I've scrapped the special unit caps (at least for now) due to the AI not handling capturable buildings well (it's attacking group bugged after capturing). The new way I plan to work this out is by wisp style (consumed by the building) animals capturable in the wild or bought at the market, which are the only way to build stables and elephant stables, so the usually tougher than infantry and historically more limited cavalry units will need a better economy to spam. If I find a work-around though I'll consider returning it to the old way with iron, horses and elephants needed to increase an initially low cap for cavalry, heavy infantry and war elephants, or possibly a system with aspects of both.

 

[matt5556]

Please Add AI and Creeps,Also make the terrain better..just a bit more trees.Does it have heroes like Alexander the Great,Hercules,and many others?I would like that very much,also nice screenshots!REP+Total Support.

 

[Pson]

Thanks for the support

There's already AI for all factions, good enough to beat any newbie although it still has some issues

There are some creeps planned/placed, wolves/lions/boars etc according to each map (lions for the current one). I don't think creeps will reach wc3 levels though. Trees are already many for a dessert/oasis map, I'm actually thinking of reducing them or their lumber amound as this map is partly about expanding to get enough lumber. Other maps will have more though when/if they come. I'm also open to suggestions on if the core/base map should be this one/have this layout.. something to be decided after more playtesting.

There are no heroes so far (nor will be in the default game), but some might come when I add more game modes. A heroes mode is possible (with real people like Alexander etc), a mythology mode is planned (with mythic beasts trained at the temple and possibly mythic heroes like Hercules) and a regicide (kill the enemy king) mode is also possible.

 

[matt5556]

If you don't have heroes,then you can add a unit that can equip items and you can only have one of them each time.Which means it's limited to 1 each player,for example:1 Siege Commander or..Like other heroes you can revive it.

 

[Pson]

That would be almost the same as having heroes, I could just disable their XP gain. So I'd rather leave them for special game modes, it's not meant to be wc3 in another setting anyway. However, you will find some special units, limited to 1 (like roman centurion after researching the marian reforms) or granted only in special ways (like athenian philosophers after researching tier or academy upgrades).

 

[matt5556]

Hmm....What about near the oasis there are sand scorpions?Or maybe sandwinder snakes.Anyways,thanks for informing me about the Limited to Only-1 Units.

 

[Pson]

The setting aims to be realistic, so I'd rather have for example lions as creeps instead of scorpions/snakes that would need to be exaggerated in size or too tiny to fit in gameplay, as well as seem less threatening. Also the former style is closer to Age Of Empires which is another desirable thing.

On another note, I've done some playtesting with volunteers but I'd like more before the first release.

 

[Ragnoras]

Did ya add elephants to Carthage? Because their main specialty are War elephants

 

[Pson]

Yup, they've got their War Elephants. I've also got a special War Elephant model, made by Grunt for this map, it could use some edits to be perfect though.

The 3 Macedonian sub-factions also get access to War Elephants, as they historically did after conquering the east, with the Seleucids having the most powerful War Elephants in the game, in the form of Armored Elephants (extra upgrade that Carthaginians, Antigonid Macedonians, and Ptolemaics lack). Persians will have War Elephants too when they are finished.

They are trained at the Elephant Stables, which require an Elephant unit, capturable in the wild or imported at the market. Also, out of the 3 mercenary camps available at randomised locations in the map, the Numidian one gives access to mercenary war elephants to any faction (as well as Numidian Cavalry).

War Elephants besides the "elite" and armored upgrades feature an upgradable fear ability that reduces nearby enemies attack damage, a cleaving attack and do siege damage. They are the most durable land unit and the most expensive one.

They might have a run amok trigger setting them to neutral hostile when heavily hurt, but I've disabled those small trigger touches until I find out what causes the occasional late game lag and rare crashes.

That's all on War Elephants I guess

 

[Ragnoras]

Are you a fan of AOE ?

 

[Pson]

I've played all 4 Age Of Empires and Age of Mythology, some much, others a little so I guess I am. This map is an effort to bring their gameplay to WC3 adding more realism and new ideas, but also keeping an eye on balance and engine limitations. It's also set in my favorite historical era.

 

[Ragnoras]

My favourite one was 3, i really likw the muskeeters and skirmishers, its my favourite period, my favourite was Ottoman, Japan in Asain dynasties and Aztec in warchiefs

 

[Pson]

I still think the best gameplay-wise were the first 2, especially the second one since the first had a number of annoying and limited controls. I like how AOE3 differentiates the civs a bit more though, I'd do that if I had more models and space. Maybe if I have the time and assistance for a full mod version in the future.

 

[Fingolfin]

I just made an amazing set of ancient greek buildings, all with ingame textures. I will upload them once i am done with particles and touch-ups. They include a town center, stables, barracks, archery range and a house. I will also make a temple, siege workshop and tower. Pics will come soon.

 

[Pson]

I'm asking for them in advance A greek set is the most useful since it can be used for romans and carthaginians as well without looking too much out of place, saving precious space as well. Btw if the inspiration behind this is my map, I'm using fortress to train siege units instead of a siege workshop. The human barracks scaled up a little looks quite good for this purpose though.

 

[Fingolfin]

lol no, the inspiration was my own map. Also the fact that they could be some of the most useful building models on the hive.

Here are some screens:

Image

 

[Pson]

So are you going to work on your map? Btw didn't expect the AOM meets 0 AD influence and they look great. However I wonder if they will fit with standard WC3 style, especially due to their low height (compared to width), which is a common "mistake" WC3 modelers make when trying to make realistic ancient/medieval structures.

 

[matt5556]

Just asking,are you going to make a Mythology:Based map after this?Because I would really like that so much.Altered Melee.

 

[Fingolfin]

So are you going to work on your map? Btw didn't expect the AOM meets 0 AD influence and they look great. However I wonder if they will fit with standard WC3 style, especially due to their low height (compared to width), which is a common "mistake" WC3 modelers make when trying to make realistic ancient/medieval structures.

You are right that they don't go that well with standard wc3 buildings, but even considering proportions the biggest factor is that the team color scheme is different. The brownish roofs make them look like doodads next to wc3 models who often have teamcolored roofs. I don't see this as a problem though, since i am planning to make enough models to ensure people won't have to mix. Somewhere along the line you have to compromise - if you want to go with narrow, tall, roundish buildings with radiant colors then you end up making something that doesn't look ancient or roman at all.

Another thing i made for my models is some really detailed build animations. When you construct them, you will see them grow the way normal buildings would - first the foundations and flooring, then the walls, roof beams, and finally the roof itself. It has the scaffolds and dust just like normal wc3 models, but it also looks a bit more realistic. I will start uploading them within the coming days.

 

[Pson]

Just asking,are you going to make a Mythology:Based map after this?Because I would really like that so much.Altered Melee.

Not sure about a map, but the plan is to make a mythology mode. Currently the temple, besides priests and their upgrades contains some "worship" techs for 3 different gods per civ, each granting bonuses related with the culture each god's worshiping might bring and/or the gameplay of the civs. On the mythology mode, each of those techs will also unlock a myth unit for training as well, giving 3 per civ.

You are right that they don't go that well with standard wc3 buildings, but even considering proportions the biggest factor is that the team color scheme is different. The brownish roofs make them look like doodads next to wc3 models who often have teamcolored roofs. I don't see this as a problem though, since i am planning to make enough models to ensure people won't have to mix. Somewhere along the line you have to compromise - if you want to go with narrow, tall, roundish buildings with radiant colors then you end up making something that doesn't look ancient or roman at all.

Another thing i made for my models is some really detailed build animations. When you construct them, you will see them grow the way normal buildings would - first the foundations and flooring, then the walls, roof beams, and finally the roof itself. It has the scaffolds and dust just like normal wc3 models, but it also looks a bit more realistic. I will start uploading them within the coming days.

I agree that they look better and more realistic this way, but on the other hand they will cause a big dilemma for me. I'm slightly leaning towards WC3 style for the map cause I prefer visual cohesion over bigger realism/ better looks and they won't cover all of my structure needs, plus I have to mind about the other 3 civs as well in the future (Celts might use wooden murloc buildings with hay roofs, Scythians Centaur/Tribal tents and Persians some naga-ish set by Ultimata). Overall I don't think the current state of the map looks too far from a WC3 styled ancient world, but it could certainly look better. Nice idea with the animation extras and overall great job and usefulness no matter if I end up using them or not.

 

[Pson]

I've decided to use fin's building set (you can see some screens at the moddb link in my sig) as well as redesign the map's shape and setting to fit more with the new buildings and the 5 first civs.

Going for a round continent with a heavily forested middle and small islands at the corners. The middle will be a key position with extra gold mines as well as giving fastest access to other players through forest paths. The forest paths can also be fortified for a more defensive playstyle. However going around the coast can help striking starting bases and most of the expansions from more open terrain. Extra expansions exist on tiny islands, those will also serve as start positions in a migration game mode.

Map Wip

 

[Fingolfin]

I love the new map, it is great that you have decided to go for melee-style gameplay since it is fun, easy to balance, and overall easy to develop. Looking forward to playing this.

 

[Pson]

It was going to be melee-like more or less anyway. In the long term, if this turns out to be a mod, I have plans to make historical campaigns, several other melee maps (many inspired by real locations) and possibly a risk map like yours. Time and help offered will decide the fate of the greater plan.

I've also spotted your ground textures and I'm using some of them. Are you taking a break from the building set or are we going to see more awesomeness soon?

 

[Fingolfin]

Well, there will be more soon, i think either the market or the storehouse is up next. Or possibly the siege workshop. However, i am going on a trip to another city where i will be spending a couple of weeks and i will not be bringing my computer. As soon as i get home there will be more though, i can easily make one of these buildings a day.

My advice to you is to start with a single map and refine it as far as you can. Try to get every aspect of balance and tweaking rock solid. Once you are 100% confident with it, you can start branching out and making more, similar maps. Otherwise you will just find yourself having to constantly change stats over a handful of maps, which is a lot more work than it needs to be.

EDIT: By the way, did you ever play Empire Earth? They had a really cool feature there where you could kind of build your own civilization by distributing a set of points onto different bonuses, like reduced prize or build speed of a certain unit type, increased health and damage, increased harvest rate, population cap, reduced recruitment cost, etc. I know that using fixed bonuses could be to prefer, but perhaps you could also have the option to create your own civilization.

Finally, nice to hear you are using my tiles. I also made some cool palm trees which you may have use for, and oh, i could maybe take the liberty of sharing RedShifts high desert tileset for those egyptian maps...

A cool screenshot of the grass tile coupled with some grass and tree models:

Image

 

[Pson]

That's the plan, starting with one map. Only difference is, if I make more than one map, it's going to be an MPQ mod. I've had some suggestions on it and it seems worth it and quite easy to play without an extra WC3 installation as it won't break the vanilla game.

I've played a little EE (I think the second one mostly) but can't remember this. It could be nice for an alternative game mode though and quite easy to implement (besides the cost/train speed part, I can't see me duplicate every unit, building or tech for it to work with the WC3 limitations).

A suitable sand tile + palms would be great for some maps, as you have a nice dirt one but it wouldn't work alone for a desert map. Is this the grass you have with your tiles? I didn't test it. Also, any tree (destructible) suggestions to go with your grass. I'm using autumn cityscape trees (pine version) currently, it looks quite interesting but I'm thinking of a possible upgrade. Preferably something Mediterranean (or one Med and one temperate).

 

[Fingolfin]

I don't think using an MPQ mod is a great idea - the strength behind wc3 is the ability to keep mods inside the map format allowing anyone to try it regardless of what other files they have on their computer. I think you would lose a lot of audience on b-net and such from doing this, which is sad. I would rather like to see you make a campaign, but ofcourse the melee maps are first priority.

As for temperate trees, well, i do have the ones i used in the screenshot i made to showcase the greek set, but they use a texture from 0 a.d. and i have also not animated them, so i've been reluctant to sharing those. I will add some animations and then you can have them if you want. The palm trees go great with them too.

As for grass, my personal favorite is the GrassBright.blp texture which you can find here (i trust you've already found this link). RedShifts textures are a bit more warcraft-ish though, and go great together, but sadly they have no variations which makes them repeat poorly.

I will not be able to share any of this until two weeks from now since i am leaving early tomorrow, and have to go to bed now. I wish you good luck for now.

 

[Pson]

Thing is, too many maps will be harder to manage and probably go over the size limit if all civs are added. People can always try the first map and install the mod if they like it. Anyway this is something for the semi-distant future, not even the first map is released yet.

0 AD resources are under a freeware license, I'm also using their tech icons, so I don't think it would be a problem (I've actually mentioned using them in their forums and got replies from many team members with no issues). So I'd love them once they're animated.

I'm using a mix of grassbring, grassbrightpale and your mud texture along with some wc3 ones (sand for the coastline and tiny bits of sunken ruins grassdirt. I looks quite good even without much effort and my average terraining skills.

Have a nice trip and thanks for the support and the resources

 

[Sunreaver]

Cool wish u finish this quicly i would love to play it

 

[Pson]

The map is very playable, even if not ready. If you wish to help with some playtesting pm me your email.

 

[Marshmalo]

it looks great from that screen shot you have, any chance of more pics?

Will you be including the egyptians?

I lov age of empires.

 

[Pson]

The moddb link in my cig has several pics, I'll probably add more/better here and there at some point.

There are Ptolemaics in the game, as a subfaction of the Macedonians, but not the "classic" Egyptians (both due to era and lack of models).

Edit: Here's a new one, including a possible new farm system

I'm thinking of making farms more of a resource that needs protection. Weaker, unable to be use as a wall (with bigger pathing) and spawning farmland for cosmetic reasons upon construction. Do you think it's worth to sacrifice their "wall" function for this?

 

[Fingolfin]

Yeah, don't let players use farms as a wall, that would be silly. The spawned farmland is cool, although i can also fix a ground texture for that if you want.

About the MPQ mod vs map: let me just say that no "mod" has ever become popular for wc3. Even the most extensive projects have always been fitted into a map without tampering with the MPQ. I have over 11 megabytes of resources worth in World in Flames - you can fit in a lot more than 8mb due to how well the map compresses, and if you use vexorians map optimizer, you can shrink down the size by another 10%. Do yourself a favor and DONT make this a mod, i for one would not play it if you did.

 

[Pson]

It looks quite good with this texture as well as saves filesize, but if you're up for something better I trust you.

By farms as walls I mean just being able to place them close to each other, like AOE houses and wc3 farms. I always enjoyed being able to use them in many ways (walling, scouting etc) but this idea seems more interesting to me as well.

How about square walls, without gates (think first AOE), fast built or even summoned (undead like)? The main issue would be how they would look on uneven ground and I've buffed town defenses compared to wc3, so it might be an overkill..

Thanks for the compression tips, I never knew how it could be reduced that much. Still not sure if (first main) map + mod or map + follow up maps is better but there's a lot of time to decide on it.

The first option means people can try the map and if they're really into it get the mod, plus easier editing on my part, but probably less people trying the full version.

The second option means more people will get each map, but with more editing work on adding features/balance and bigger size limitations (although the size you mention might be enough even for all civs).

 

[Marshmalo]

well it looks great to me, some of the icons look alittle off but I know how hard it can be to find fitting icons that work.

Have you considered using costom tree models? The WC3 trees look kind of simple when placed against the high quality and realistic building models you have.

I don't know if you know this already but you can save so much space on textures by compressing them further using the WC3 viewer. I compress mine to around 40%

 

[Pson]

Thanks for the tips

Icons are indeed an issue, but many are to be replaced.

I'll certainly use custom tree models in the future. I'll probably get some from Fingolfin and a guy at moddb offered to make some proper Mediterranean vegetation.

I didn't know this. Do they lose quality? It might be something helpful in the future.

 

[Marshmalo]

They do use quality, but only slightly, if you go any lower than 40% then they start to look bad, but it can depend, if you zoom out the camera then people will not notice at all.

(If you havnt already you should defo consider having the camera zoomed out during play by default as the normal wc3 camera is zoomed in so close its very anoying to use. )

You can also resize the texture in photoshop or free Gimp.

Your ground textures look costom? They look very nice.

 

[Pson]

I've tried a custom camera in the past (reseting to the desired distance every 0.5 sec or something so it won't return to default), but it looked a bit strange, especially while changing the view angle. I'm currently using about x0.6-0.65 scale, so the view is more AOE like anyway.

The textures are made by Fingolfin I spotted them available for download somewhere around the forums.

 

[Fingolfin]

Hey, hope you noticed i uploaded a stockpile for the greek set! And also the trees you requested. Some pines and palms will come aswell soon.

 

[Pson]

I'm currently adding all of them to the map Good job once again, I'll be waiting for more!

 

[Fingolfin]

Great, make sure to post pictures!

I will make some poplars and more temperate trees next, as far as buildings go i think i will do a siege workshop or dock.

 

[Sunreaver]

I like the beta but when i test as the Carthagians that elephant model sucks and actually a mammoth

 

[Pson]

Great, make sure to post pictures!

I will make some poplars and more temperate trees next, as far as buildings go i think i will do a siege workshop or dock.

Any vegetation of this quality is very welcome Is there some way to make tree variations work with one destructible entity like the original WC3 trees? Cause I haven't found anything on it while looking around, and I'm currently using 3 different birches, making placement more tedious.

Screens will come soon. Looking forward to more structure models as well (I might not use the siege workshop though, using forts to train siege).

I like the beta but when i test as the Carthagians that elephant model sucks and actually a mammoth

I'm aware that the elephant model isn't the best and the capturable/importable version still uses a mammoth model. Any other things you noticed?

 

[Fingolfin]

Yes, it is quite simple:

Set the path to war3imported\birch.mdl WITHOUT the number in the model field (in the import manager, they should end with numbers ranging from 0 and up, like my models already do). Then, set "variations" to 3. Make sure "has lightweight version" is unchecked. Voila!

So basically: give them the exact same path as the models, except without the number. Sadly, this only works with destructables, and not with doodads though.

 

[Sunreaver]

I don't know i will check them out slowly also the Centurion BP can be put right instead of left because u can train only one of them

 

[Pson]

Great, thanks

 

[Pinzu]

I'll certainly use custom tree models in the future. I'll probably get some from Fingolfin and a guy at moddb offered to make some proper Mediterranean vegetation.

You must share this with me! ^^

Also, for preventing tilting walls you could replace the building with a a destructible when its completed.

Is there a beta release of this somewhere?

 

[Pson]

I don't know i will check them out slowly also the Centurion BP can be put right instead of left because u can train only one of them

The button positions won't always look perfect. I've set them the Age of Empires I/II way, not the WC3 one, since factions share some units and techs. In this example, the legionary replaces the swordsman as an equivalent unit so it takes it's position, and the Centurion comes as a bonus unit so it goes to what position is left.

You must share this with me! ^^

Also, for preventing tilting walls you could replace the building with a a destructible when its completed.

Is there a beta release of this somewhere?

Not sure if he'll do them, it's been a couple of weeks now since we last talked and some minutes ago I messaged him stating it might be pointless since fin made those great trees and he plans on doing more.

It's at a playable alpha state now. Currently doing minor terrain readjustments and adding new fin models. We could play online if you wish or I can just give you the map.

However I'm starting to wonder if I've given it to too many people. Most resources are not credited yet and some have permission for map-only use (or at least not specified for more). Plus there's always the fear of entire map theft. Not that I believe a hive member would steal it and go away with it, but you can't be sure about to whom and how many it is going to be shared second hand. Any thoughts on this?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Subscribing to this thread so I can test if you need help. I've always been a fan of Ancient Greece.