Achieving a better spell section:

[Deuterium]

Introduction: The Issue

As we've been seeing lately, the spell section moderation has been very poor over the last few months. Yet, no approach to improve the spell section moderation has been made.

What we expected after the "purge" was actually getting spells reviewed, instead, barely any are getting reviewed (every few days some spells are reviewed).​

I. Active moderation

So what I'm asking for here? More moderators? No.

What we really need are active moderators!

None of the present moderators are active in any way as they're "busy with real life". And still, such an excuse in my opinion is senseless as no matter how busy they're lives are, 5 spells a day (the supposed upload average in my opinion) out of which usually 3 could be instantly rejected, won't take more than 30 minutes a day. Having 3 moderators, that's 10 minutes per each a day.

And since we need to clean the spell section now, if each moderator works 30 minutes a day, then in a few months the section would have all spells reviewed.

If the current moderators aren't able of doing their job, then new moderators should be chosen to replace them.​

II. Trusted Reviewers List

Well, I also have an idea to make reviewing for the moderators easier:
Making a list of the trusted spell reviewers.

The moderators should make a list of those trusted reviewers for both GUI and (v)Jass. That way, when they check the spells, if they can skim through the reviews, and then compare it to the code, and if the reviews seems logical, either approve or reject according to them (all that won't take more than 2 or 3 minutes per spell).​

III. Spell Section's Sub-Sections

Now this isn't an essential, but an advice to make the spell section neater.

The spell section should have "sub-sections". Something close to how it's done in wc3c. Three sections would be enough:
1. Vanialla GUI and Jass spells
2. vJass spell
3. Systems

And an additional optional section:
4. External systems (which links to external systems on other sites, 'cause really, most of the used systems don't get uploaded to the hive).

I mean really, all that would only make the section neater, and nicer to use.​

IV. The Update Box: Brainstorming

Here I'd be posting any interesting ideas by the fellow users (as long as their logical and useful).

Last Words

Although I don't think any changes would be made as it's not the first time we ask for changes, I at least hope so.

For any who opposes any of the just mentioned ideas, please be gentle enough to explain why.​

Thanks all!
Deuterium

 

[Deuterium]

Just as a separate note:
I know there's the Jass section made for Jass systems and codes, but it seems like users prefer uploading them to the Spells section


Also:
I hope you people could post a link to this thread in your signatures to let everyone know about this discussion.


Please:
Don't get greedy or childish and start asking to become a mod or something. That's just stupid. Oh, and also don't name people who deserve to be a mod, that's also just stupid. If that discussion is to happen, there would be a separate thread.


I know:
I know that Anachron has made a common thread to this some time ago, but this deals a different purpose (although both intend to improve the Spells section).

 

[Reaper2008]

Once more you are right. I see new spells every day, and while some get reviewed, most (usually (v)JASS spells) are left, and soon forgotten.

 

[Linaze]

The difference between the Jass section and the Spells section is that the Jass section contains scripts and the Spells section contains spells (duh) and systems.

 

[Deuterium]

Yes I know that Linaze but I mean usually systems are only plain scripts (few are the systems that use object editing) yet they are mostly posted in the spells section, usually for testing purposes.

 

[Paladon]

After reaching over 200 pending spells again, i wonder why noone used the chance which was given with the "purge".

Yes, having active moderators is a must. The repromotion of old veterans is generally not constructive if these veterans avoid doing their job nowadays.
There should be a list of trusted people who may review submitted ressources since the moderators don't seem to be able to handle it alone.
Sub-sections are not necessary in particular. You have the search options.

Good luck with brainstorming.

 

[Linaze]

In my personal opinion, we should combine the Jass and Spells section into a Code section (a bit like wc3c has), but instead of sub-forums like wc3c has, we'll just have our good old filtering system.

 

[HINDYhat]

The moderators should make a list of those trusted reviewers for both GUI and (v)Jass.

The majority of GUI reviewers I've crossed have been full of poo in most of their reviews. Besides, if we really had a list of trusted reviewers, they'd probably already be up for promotion, so the whole reviewing thing is kind of pointless.

The spell section should have "sub-sections". Something close to how it's done in wc3c.

The way it's organized now is fine. That would just make it feel like we're copying wc3c for the sake of copying. There is no real advantage to organizing it in sub-sections rather than having tags for different submissions.

External systems (which links to external systems on other sites, 'cause really, most of the used systems don't get uploaded to the hive).

And they don't get uploaded because often the author doesn't want them here (see Vexorian's stuff etc). Shouldn't spells and systems follow the same credit principle as other resources?

I know there's the Jass section made for Jass systems and codes, but it seems like users prefer uploading them to the Spells section

The systems that are uploaded to the spell section and actually have a decent test map are probably meant for the spell section. The Jass scripts forum is meant for scripts and systems that don't need demo maps, or that are difficult to use without one. Besides, this isn't really a huge problem, is it?

I can't really think of any solution other than trying to hire more motivated moderators, and that isn't saying much. Fiddling with the spell section's layout definitely won't fix anything...

 

[-JonNny]

I personally do not really care about sections
but sections wouldnt be that bad

In my opinion we need more active mods.
Easily said - not easy to do

but due the spell section looks kinda dead ( ~ 1 approve per week or something) i guss something has to happen
rcruiting more and more spell mods cannot really be the solution due most seem to loose motivation after some month to approve much because they seem to be alone each time

At first reviews stopped due the 1.24 patch and i was told that afterwards, after all bugged spell are removed the approving continues

but nothing happenes even now

 

[Deuterium]

Now this isn't an essential, but an advice to make the spell section neater.

As you can see guys, this was only ADVICE

Besides, if we really had a list of trusted reviewers, they'd probably already be up for promotion, so the whole reviewing thing is kind of pointless.

Not really... mods need to have alot of good traits besides knowing coding...
However, reviewers don't. A reviewer could be a good one just by knowing how to code.

The majority of GUI reviewers I've crossed have been full of poo in most of their reviews.

Humm, well, the MAJORITY
That's why there should be a list...

And they don't get uploaded because often the author doesn't want them here (see Vexorian's stuff etc). Shouldn't spells and systems follow the same credit principle as other resources?

Also this was an additional advice. Linking to the original resource doesn't violate any accreditation.

 

[HINDYhat]

However, reviewers don't. A reviewer could be a good on just by knowing how to code.

A reviewer would check a spell to see if it has flaws. If it's flawless, he would put it up for approval.
A moderator would check a spell to see if it has flaws. If it's flawless, he would approve it.
What other responsibilities do spell moderators have?

Linking to the original resource doesn't violate any accreditation.

Oh, did you mean linking to Wc3c's resource thread for, say, Vexorian's Map Optimizer, as opposed to uploading it here?

 

[Zack1996]

You speak the truth.
The purge didn't do anything. It just made some spells deleted and re-uploaded again, causing another re-review.

I do agree that active mods are needed, but are lacking. Sometimes, it feels as if some spells should just be rejected straight away. There should probably be some "Vote for Rejection" button that works like Report Post, so the Spell mods can just open the map, know that the spell was crappily done, and reject it.

My idea so far.

 

[Rmx]

Yes, the spell section needs to be active.

Nothing barely gets approved, we need mods.

I agree with you SEED.

 

[Deuterium]

@ Hindy:
Well the thing is moderators need to be mature and responsible and smart... to say it in short: a leader.
That's how they differ from reviewers... I mean I've seen some really good coders, but tell them "I don't really like this spell", and you'll see their childish reactions

And yes I mean linking to the original and not resource, just a plain link... I'm actually totally against re-uploading here

@ Zack:
There already is the mini-mod option where you vote for rejection or approval

 

[Linaze]

A resource moderator mainly needs to know how to properly review something.

 

[Deuterium]

Well if a moderator isn't at least slightly mature and understanding, then there's no way he'd be doing a good job since he'd be the one with the childish behaviors

 

[Palaslayer]

you have my vote, but i doubt that anything will be changed.

 

[Deuterium]

We all doubt that

 

[Kwah]

Yes, more moderators would be nice. But it won't happen, primarily because the SPELL SECTION SUCKS.

 

[Deuterium]

I didn't say more moderators... I said active moderators

 

[Kwah]

And no one wants to be active on a section that is 98% crap.

 

[HINDYhat]

I didn't say more moderators... I said active moderators

Same difference? I don't think THW would hire mods who would be inactive in their debuts.

And yeah, hawk is correct. Moderating spells sucks when they're all terrible.

 

[-Berz-]

Same difference? I don't think THW would hire mods who would be inactive in their debuts.

And yeah, hawk is correct. Moderating spells sucks when they're all terrible.

That's why attaching the spell code is a must.

If it's crap you can see without downloading the spell, and you can reject it without wasting precious time.

And not all spells are terrible.

 

[Deuterium]

No, they're all terrible cause they're not well moderated. I mean I don't see any of those "terrible spells" getting deleted or even reviewed. :s

And I'm sure some people are willing to improve the section...

 

[En_Fuego]

Well if a moderator isn't at least slightly mature and understanding, then there's no way he'd be doing a good job since he'd be the one with the childish behaviors

who cares? It's not like a spell section moderator can really do anything with his/her power. I'd say the 'worst' thing a spell section moderator can do is reject someone's spell just because they don't like them, in which case you just tell an admin.

 

[Deuterium]

Well, I doubt that would happen... but what I mean by immature is when you argue stupidly with someone... or flame, or such stuff...

 

[En_Fuego]

Well, I doubt that would happen... but what I mean by immature is when you argue stupidly with someone... or flame, or such stuff...

That has nothing to do with being a spell moderator...so like I said...who cares?

 

[Palaslayer]

this discuission is just senseless.

 

[En_Fuego]

this discuission is just senseless.

yeah, pretty much. If they really cared about the spell section they would make it so only moderators can see pending spells. Why let someone download a pending spell if it could possibly dangerous/doesn't follow the site standards?

 

[Septimus]

Having a extremely active moderator would do little to none in ensuring all good quality resources approve and the bad one rejected.

What we need is to implement something that cause the new user who first time submitted their spells to answer specific question regarding the spells section rules. If they could answer all those question correctly, then only they would be allowed to upload the spells.

I been trying to get Ralle to accept this method (Especially at map section), but it isn't accepted by him.

This kind of implementation would born a lot of little baby crying about them unable to submit resources due to it, then again it is better to have a user who could understand and follow the rules instead of user who submit it without reading and understanding the rules.

With this being implement, if they still violate the rules. Then, the staff could just banned the user immediately without any warning since they already have a full understanding of the rules and still break it.

This might be harsh, but it is the only way to reduce the amount of pending resources.

 

[Deuterium]

Well I'd find that way a bit... meh annoying

However, what could be done, is that new users can't post their spells directly in the spells section, but in the Triggers & Scripts section...

If the triggering is fine and worth approving, then the mod could be contacted and the user would be allowed to post it in the spell section.


However, this is NOT THE SOLUTION... the main solution is having active mods cause even at a rate of one spell per day, the present mods wouldn't be able of doing their jobs

 

[Septimus]

However, what could be done, is that new users can't post their spells directly in the spells section, but in the Triggers & Scripts section...

If the triggering is fine and worth approving, then the mod could be contacted and the user would be allowed to post it in the spell section.

That would be a real hassle for a mod.. a question/answer system just like at certain forum where it need you to answer specific question before you could become part of the community is the best solution.

 

[Aspard]

I am totally agreed with Deuterium, we've been talking in too many spell threads about this.

Yeah, there are no really active moderators, but that's not the most irritating point about that for me. I really hate the point, that only people who has modds as a friends could ask them to review their spell and approve it, all other uploads will be just ignored.

However, what's the matter in approving spells, if we can search for both approved and pending spells, huh? The reason of "approving" itself for me seems as to sort off all this harsh with leaking, unefficient, boring and non-creative spells and systems. But if you look here NOW - what will you find? About 4/5 of pending uploads are kinda like this. Yes, we help people to make their spells better with our reviews, but sometimes we just face ignorance or belief in being an outstanding codder with even Wait actions in five line scripts.

Some changes concerning moderators team should be really done, especially talking about the point of getting one or two new members to it, who spend much time here NOW (Not in the past, e.g. I really respect Hanky, but when did you see him last time with a review?) and they should be divided by the type of codding they check: GUI and Jass.

 

[PurplePoot]

yeah, pretty much. If they really cared about the spell section they would make it so only moderators can see pending spells. Why let someone download a pending spell if it could possibly dangerous/doesn't follow the site standards?

Because it used to be like that and people bitched that it took ages for them to get out to the public.

--

hvo-busterkomo is [usually] active, but he tore the skin off his neck in a sports accident and is thus busy being hospitalized for the time being. This accounts for a significant dip in the spell moderation of late (and the fact that everyone was on vacation over the summer did not help). The other spell moderators moderate now and then but are not the most active in my experience, but whatever. Even if they only review a spell a week, that's better than nothing.

--

The main problem is the lack of moderators, yes. Now here's the challenge: give me a list of people you think are qualified for spell moderation. I'd be surprised if I haven't seen them all and had a good reason not to promote them, but maybe you'll find a good candidate, so it's worth a shot.

 

[HINDYhat]

this discuission is just senseless.

This.

Having a extremely active moderator would do little to none in ensuring all good quality resources approve and the bad one rejected.

... and why's that? There are very few spells submitted. It could be covered by one extremely active moderator. Hell, when I first started moderating, I was alone. wyrmlord, Poot and DSG barely did any moderating, yet I steadily reduced the spell submissions for a while. Until I got bored to death from moderating the same shitty code over and over again.

What we need is to implement something that cause the new user who first time submitted their spells to answer specific question regarding the spells section rules.

Most spell submitters are completely oblivious of the terrible quality of their script. Making them pass a "DOES UR SPELL LEAKS??" quiz would do absolutely nothing right.

Then, the staff could just banned the user immediately without any warning since they already have a full understanding of the rules and still break it.

lol

Yes, we help people to make their spells better with our reviews, but sometimes we just face ignorance or belief in being an outstanding codder with even Wait actions in five line scripts.

I didn't understand a single thing from that.

The main problem is the lack of moderators, yes.

Thread solved, kk.

 

[Thanathos]

@Poot
So we should open a threat where we suggest people who might be qualified for being spell mod ? And if you think someone from that list is qualified as mod could get promoted ?

 

[PurplePoot]

No. You should give me a short list here, with an explanation as to why you think they are qualified to be a moderator and a link to their profile (hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/<their name>/).

 

[Palaslayer]

lol. promotion of mods by members. thats not the usual way, isnt it? i dont think that it is the solution... everybody will hope to be promoted, lol.

 

[Coolty44]

A Q&A about the rules is pointless, answer them right and you never have to look at them gain. A great example would be a day before my schools prom, we had a quiz focusing on what the rules were for prom. Things like "What arn't you allowed to be well at prom" A: Drunk. Guess how many people showed up drunk. 15.
____

I think we just need more active members that are willing to review for the mods and make suggestions on which spells are good/bad/horide. The most I've seen reviewed was Hvo's rejection spree that mainly focused on minority rules, like discription, screenshot, ect. If it wasn't for the constant reviews of normal users, then theres really no ground for map makers looking for spells (and know nothng about the "art") to pick an ability

 

[PurplePoot]

lol. promotion of mods by members. thats not the usual way, isnt it? i dont think that it is the solution... everybody will hope to be promoted, lol.

And they will be rejected if they do.

It's not like I'm saying "here, promote some people." I'm saying "here, have a chance to give me an introduction to some people I may not have noticed."

 

[Aspard]

I didn't understand a single thing from that.

Maybe that's because you just don't want to?

 

[PurplePoot]

Maybe that's because you just don't want to?

No, it really made no sense. Feel free to rephrase it.

 

[Thanathos]

My candidates for promotion (i did not ask them yet if they would agree)

Name:	Reasons
Dark_Dragon	Awesome coder and he has a huge knowledge about spellmaking. Furthermore he also as an impressive knowledge of the things which happen 'beyond Jass', what i mean is the C++ code of the natives. I´ve also heard he was your pupil and if this is true you should know his abilities.
Kingz	He´s also a very good coder and has a lot knowledge about spellmaking. It seems he fails when making his spells or giving other people a review. He also knows how to tread and argue with the flaming who claim their stuff is good.

Before someone says they are not worth to be a mod why not give them a chance to prove that they can handle spell moderating ? In the worst case they get depromoted and thats it. They can´t ruin the spells section, because it´s already an absolute mess.

 

[PurplePoot]

Before someone says they are not worth to be a mod why not give them a chance to prove that they can handle spell moderating ? In the worst case they get depromoted and thats it. They can´t ruin the spells section, because it´s already an absolute mess.

Because I can gauge that by seeing reviews they did as a non-moderator and seeing the way they behave on the site.

Also,

It seems he fails when making his spells or giving other people a review.

If he "fails" then why are you suggesting him?

 

[Thanathos]

What i meant was that i did not see him failing since i´m in the hive. Ofc he can fail when doing a review or whatever, but that´s normal because he´s human. Even the current spell mods can fail when they moderating and if someone claims he or she is *unfailable* then he/she is lying or not human.

[edit]
And what do you think about Dark Dragon ?

 

[PurplePoot]

The problem I have with DD (and I know a good deal about him, naturally) is that he often has trouble communicating as his English skills are quite sub-par; if you can't be clear, reviews are useless.

 

[Septimus]

A Q&A about the rules is pointless, answer them right and you never have to look at them gain. A great example would be a day before my schools prom, we had a quiz focusing on what the rules were for prom. Things like "What arn't you allowed to be well at prom" A: Drunk. Guess how many people showed up drunk. 15.

That is why I said "Immediate banned without warning" if they dare to do it even though they already understand it.

 

[PurplePoot]

That is why I said "Immediate banned without warning" if they dare to do it even though they already understand it.

But people make honest mistakes too.

 

[-JonNny]

But people make honest mistakes too.

True
Banning is way to harsh in my opinion
but still i think some uploads could have some harder consequences because theres a bunch of users uploading completely GUI crap full of leaks which does break rules
atleast a bigger warning for ignoring the spell rules could change their mind a bit

Thinking about another good Spell mod there is only DD coming into my mind. I dont really know about his ability to express himself but i did not recognize any big problems according to this till now
and i think due noone as to write a huge article as a review it does not really matter if he would have some minor flaws
i definitely know he always has some good suggestions and i would give my vote for him.

 

[Aspard]

Yes, we help people to make their spells better with our reviews, but sometimes we just face ignorance or belief in being an outstanding codder with even Wait actions in five line scripts.

For those, who didn't get the point:

Sometimes novice (or noobs) upload unefficient, leakful or laggy spells. Some of them are patient enough to listen to advices of advanced spellmakers through reading their reviews, going into useful discussion and trying to learn something. But usually such people are just damned retards, thinking they'd done everythng perfect and we are just a group of freacky commentators and want to make them look dull.

Afterwards, they upload about 2-3 more such spells, ignoring any comments. Since that the spells section become flooded with such "spells & systems". So that's why somebody should take care about that.

And since there is a discussion about DD and Kingz, I can just definetily say that I see the ladder really little now.
But talking about DD, I'm pretty sure he could take this place, I know him as really responsive and helpful person, also that's not a problem to find him, he visits community one time in two days at one hundred percents. So if it would be a pool, I would give him my vote.