Zephyr Contest #12 theme discussion

[Kazeon]

Welcome to the Zephyr Contest #12 theme discussion thread! Here we are brainstorming about theme for the next Zephyr contest. If you have any or some, please shout them all. But please, also attach a short but understand-able description about your idea. As long as it's not a troll, it will be added to the list no matter what. So just don't hesitate to speak out

P.S. Polling will be started on 16th October (hopefully).

Current suggested themes:

Theme [TD] Description [tr]Elemental (earth/wind/fire/water)[td]Choose one between those elements as the theme. [tr]Uncommon/Bizzare[td]Uncommon means a very-unique spell that likely doesn't fit Warcraft 3 style and doesn't look like common spells (example: 1, 2, 3). Contestants have to create those kind of spell. [tr]Combo[td]An interesting idea from the previous Zephyr theme polling thread. Design spells which can have multiple effects based on their cast order. [tr]Animal[td]Create a spell that suits and is one special (or not) ability of an animal or even fantasy creature you have ever heard of. Example: (Animal) Lion => Roar (Fantasy creature) Gargoyle => Stone Form [tr]Unit manipulation[td]Specifically controlling units (dragging them, throwing, capture, that sort of thing) [tr]Increasing Power[td]Spell increases in power with multiple frequent casts, be it damage, duration, debuff strength, buff strength, change in spell effect, etc [tr]Diminishing returns[td]Opposite of Increasing Power [tr]Crowd Control[td]A crowd control ability is an ability that stuns, hinders, controls, etc. one or more units (e.g. statis trap, storm bolt, sleep, etc.) [tr]Blood Magic[td]A spell that has a drawback e.g. you deal increased damage but you are reduced to 0 armor. [tr]Creative Warcraft3-Style[td]Abilities that are unique, creative & useful while still mundane enough to be found on a classic in-game Hero. (Probably) each contestant have to create more than 2 spells. [tr]...[td]...

[tr][TD]​

 

[Chaosy]

I vote for the elemental theme, I like Avatar way too much to turn it down.

how about a no-(v)jass theme? I'd love that.

Spoiler

on a serious note, what about an creature/animal theme? Meaning the spell have to suit with a certain creature, this doesn't need to be a bear/wolf. It might be any fantasy creature you have heard of.

 

[Tank-Commander]

Limiting code size would just hinder people more than anything else, unless that limit was particularly high, unless you're excluding coding for all things but the main code (on-cast and loop), elemental theme is pretty overdone in the spell section itself, Cinematic spell I positively hate the idea of (since it permits poor code conventions), "Uncommon/Bizzare" needs some if not a lot of clarification, anything can be "not warcraft III like" just by giving it funny effects, like flying sheep for projectiles.
an animal/creature theme could be pretty good, though I'm not sure on how you'd spin it, but it's workable

"Do you want to add public voting/polling into final score calculation?" - public polling is part of the default format for zephyr, I also can't condone removal of the voice of the public. We've already gone through reductions to the effect of public polling and multiple times have debates come up about whether or not it should be included and bias' of people which was then extended into the bias of judges.

Duration of the contest needs to be considered once we have a rough starting area for it, at this point there's no real need or point to doing so - last contest was held during exam season so some people couldn't participate due to the contest's length such things are what we need to be considering. Starting "ASAP" is also not the best of conventions

Registery is not a thing that needs to be done at all. you register by showing up.

Build the rules? don't we already have an accepted format for zephyr? why do they need building?

At this time, I do not actively support any themes suggested but Combo (which I support but keep at arm's length) and an animal theme (which is workable) I have no suggestions of my own for now.

 

[Kazeon]

I vote for the elemental theme, I like Avatar way too much to turn it down.

Please, vote when the polling is open

how about a no-(v)jass theme? I'd love that.[/spoiler]

Why would you love it? vJass either GUI have exactly same portion of score. If your GUI is well coded while other's vJass is not that good, you will have more score no matter what. There is no discrimination on this matter.

on a serious note, what about an creature/animal theme? Meaning the spell have to suit with a certain creature, this doesn't need to be a bear/wolf. It might be any fantasy creature you have heard of.

Will be added to the list.

Limiting code size would just hinder people more than anything else, unless that limit was particularly high, unless you're excluding coding for all things but the main code (on-cast and loop)

No, I meant total lines including initialization function etc. Anyway, the theme will be updated with some additional constraints.

elemental theme is pretty overdone in the spell section itself

Indeed. But using only one element as the theme is a nice way to measure contestants' creativity. Imagine this: earth element theme for a lot contestants? They will try to make the most unique and original idea so that their ideas will be the only one. Whereas idea of earth spell itself is very limited already. And yes, Earth Element is in my opinion. Fire, Water, and Wind are rather easier than Earth.

Cinematic spell I positively hate the idea of (since it permits poor code conventions)

Imagine some users are able to add some slow-motion and cool cinematic camera effects into their spell, it's cool, isn't it?

(since it permits poor code conventions)

Probably right, but we can add some exceptions for this theme. Anyway, code efficiency is still counted into the consideration, so you shouldn't be worry about that poor-conventions. But, if this theme is indeed over complicating things so I will just remove it, but currently I don't think so since I think I know how to handle and judge such spells.

"Uncommon/Bizzare" needs some if not a lot of clarification, anything can be "not warcraft III like" just by giving it funny effects, like flying sheep for projectiles.

How if I change it to "Joke/Comedy" so the spell must be funny. No matter how but contestants' will have to make hilarious spell Garfield's chicken burst spell is one great example.

Registery is not a thing that needs to be done at all. you register by showing up.

Oh right. It's registration actually

Build the rules? don't we already have an accepted format for zephyr? why do they need building?

In case contestants' want to add more rules. As example:

No deadline extension.

I think it's one considerable rule

 

[Tank-Commander]

No, I meant total lines including initialization function etc. Anyway, the theme will be updated with some additional constraints.

That disadvantages people based on the code language they use, GUI for instance, uses global variables which are declared while not using any lines of code, (v)Jass does not and would consume lines just to declare them

Imagine some users are able to add some slow-motion and cool cinematic camera effects into their spell, it's cool, isn't it?

Using camera effects falls under the category of "poor code conventions", and as "cool" as it is, it holds no merit - that only makes things MORE based on appearences which people already complain enough about.

But, if this theme is indeed over complicating things so I will just remove it, but currently I don't think so since I think I know how to handle and judge such spells.

Apparently not; if you can't see why using camera effects is bad I certainly wouldn't consider you qualified enough. This is a programming contest not a film contest - while being able to give a visually appealing entry is positive and should hold /some/ value, it should not overrule code efficiency and proper conventions under any case.

Oh right. It's registration actually

And your point is supposed to be what? My point stands.

No deadline extension.

And this is one you decided to add by yourself? Have you not considered that deadline extensions tend to be done on a case-by-case basis? There is no reason for that to be a rule as it CANNOT be violated if no extension is given, all that does is set in stone that the contest is inflexible by stating that there's no point in asking for one. You also cannot just bolt on rules without any consensus - it's inconsiderate.

How if I change it to "Joke/Comedy" so the spell must be funny.

That would make the idea worse than before, sense of humour differs GREATLY between people and would only serve to skew things.

But using only one element as the theme is a nice way to measure contestants' creativity. Imagine this: earth element theme for a lot contestants? They will try to make the most unique and original idea so that their ideas will be the only one. Whereas idea of earth spell itself is very limited already. And yes, Earth Element is in my opinion. Fire, Water, and Wind are rather easier than Earth.

That effectively boils down into "do whatever the hell you want, just make sure the effects are brown/use rocks/etc." there is little to no constraint beyond what effects you bolt on which can be completely replaced, I cannot agree that earth is any harder than fire water and wind, just that it looks much more dull by comparison in my opinion. I think it's forgotten all too often that to make your spell "elemental" all you do is change the effects, that's it - very few spells can you /not/ make elemental based

 

[Kazeon]

Using camera effects falls under the category of "poor code conventions", and as "cool" as it is, it holds no merit - that only makes things MORE based on appearences which people already complain enough about.

You have a point that this theme should be removed. Okay, I will remove.

And your point is supposed to be what? My point stands.

What?

And this is one you decided to add by yourself? Have you not considered that deadline extensions tend to be done on a case-by-case basis? There is no reason for that to be a rule as it CANNOT be violated if no extension is given, all that does is set in stone that the contest is inflexible by stating that there's no point in asking for one. You also cannot just bolt on rules without any consensus - it's inconsiderate.

- Please help me to build the rules, give it corrections or add more rules.

That's not my instantly-added rule, I need some corrections. I add this question since I experience a lot of rule modifications in the last Hero contest, I don't like a poorly prepared contest like that. I hope the rules and all constraints are ready to be applied when the contest starts. So there is no rule inconsistency (updates/changes) in the process.

That would make the idea worse than before, sense of humour differs GREATLY between people and would only serve to skew things.

That's subjective opinion. The theme will still remain in the list.

That effectively boils down into "do whatever the hell you want, just make sure the effects are brown/use rocks/etc." there is little to no constraint beyond what effects you bolt on which can be completely replaced, I cannot agree that earth is any harder than fire water and wind, just that it looks much more dull by comparison in my opinion. I think it's forgotten all too often that to make your spell "elemental" all you do is change the effects, that's it - very few spells can you /not/ make elemental based

No. The measurement is "how earth-ish is your spell?" and uniqueness is still counted in. So if you just create a homing brown missile so it's going to have a low creativity and uniqueness scores.
What I get is that you just can't produce any unique idea out of Earth theme. That's why you stand against. Whereas I have a bunch of them, as example use terrain deformation to impale units? But in unique way of course. Sorry, but it's still just your subjective opinion, the theme stands still.

 

[Tank-Commander]

That's not my instantly-added rule, I need some corrections. I add this question since I experience a lot of rule modifications in the last Hero contest, I don't like a poorly prepared contest like that. I hope the rules and all constraints are ready to be applied when the contest starts. So there is no rule inconsistency (updates/changes) in the process.

I would've thought that'd be something that you suggest first and then actually get feedback on before adding it to the list. Instead of you know, the exact opposite. Also, you "hope", "(updates/changes) in the process"? I don't think it's clear to you how this works: you do not change the rules of a contest DURING a contest. If they aren't "ready" by then, they are not to be implemented, if there is no consensus on a given rule, it is NOT to be implemented.

That's subjective opinion. The theme will still remain in the list.

The fact that it makes for a worse theme? yes you could argue that's subjective. The fact that sense of humour differs from person to person and that would then only cause issues/skew things? No, that is called a statement and isn't subjective, if you can prove that people all have the same sense of humour or that adding subjective judging criteria doesn't pervert objective judging results then go ahead, but I think that's an uphill battle that will quickly be lost.

No. The measurement is "how earth-ish is your spell?" and uniqueness is still counted in. So if you just create a homing brown missile so it's going to have a low creativity and uniqueness scores.
What I get is that you just can't produce any unique idea out of Earth theme. That's why you stand against. Whereas I have a bunch of them, as example use terrain deformation to impale units? But in unique way of course. Sorry, but it's still just your subjective opinion, the theme stands still.

Yes let's just undermine my position by projecting your ideas about me, as if they are my own. That's not blatantly presumptuous or displaying poor character traits! No, it can't be that I actually have a different view on what makes something elemental or appear such, it simply MUST be that I'm not creative enough to work with it. It's not like I've ever made a spell which centred around the use of rocks or easily substituted effects which would make the spell appear earthen.
Lets say for arguments sake that I infact, don't have any ideas or that I'm a very uncreative individual. That justifies your sentiment how? "you don't like it because you're bad at it" does nothing to defend keeping it, it's just an attempt at ignoring my criticism. Heck I didn't even say "get rid of this theme it's not good enough!" All I said was that I don't like the theme and then gave my reason why. I stated which themes I support and which I don't, that is all.

Edit: For the record, terrain deformations are also not allowed in the main spell section because they too fall under the category of "poor code conventions", they leak. You're really showing the kind of expertise in the field we need in a judge. And yes what makes something earthen is entirely subjective, and the theme does indeed stand, I'm saying that I'd expect the theme would have little impact on the submissions beyond having swapped out effects.

 

[Kazeon]

Whatever you say, man. But I'm too lazy to read and understand a fat sarcastic paragraph. But

you do not change the rules of a contest DURING a contest. If they aren't "ready" by then, they are not to be implemented, if there is no consensus on a given rule, it is NOT to be implemented

Sadly that happens in the hero contest.

I'm saying that I'd expect the theme would have little impact on the submissions beyond having swapped out effects.

In fact, all of my theme suggestions do have impact on it, at least I've tried to, but you refused every single one with spell submission rules and some conventions. Even the most reasonable one (Joke/Comedy) you refused it too. I'm out of idea. Sorry I failed to fulfill your needs.
And you have just contradicted your own arguments between a unique theme and just a follow-the-convention theme.

EDIT:
And what I want here for this first week or two is arguments to add or remove a theme from the poll, not why you vote for a theme, you can do it when the poll is open.

 

[Magtheridon96]

Limiting code size is a stupid idea.
Don't do it in Zephyr.

If you want to do something like this, you have to call it Code Golf. Ask users to create something that accomplishes a
certain task with minimal code size in characters. Score would be calculated based on the code length and community
votes rather than efficiency and structure.

It's actually a thing.

That would be a whole different type of contest.

 

[Kazeon]

Limiting code size is a stupid idea.
Don't do it in Zephyr.

If you want to do something like this, you have to call it Code Golf. Ask users to create something that accomplishes a
certain task with minimal code size in characters. Score would be calculated based on the code length and community
votes rather than efficiency and structure.

It's actually a thing.

That one is going to be removed soon.

 

[Tank-Commander]

In fact, all of my theme suggestions do have impact on it, at least I've tried to, but you refused every single one with spell submission rules and some conventions. Even the most reasonable one (Joke/Comedy) you refused it too. I'm out of idea. Sorry I failed to fulfill your needs.
And you have just contradicted your own arguments between a unique theme and just a follow-the-convention theme.

I was referencing specifically the elemental theme, not the other themes. Please consider context of statements when trying to counter them. Yes when one of the key rules of zephyr is the fact that the spell submission rules must be abided by, I am going to reject the idea of themes which expressly violate them like the cinematic spell theme.

Also I made no such contradiction - have you considered that entries/themes can be unique and still follow coding conventions? you know, like in every single other zephyr contest ever? don't conflate following the conventions of programming and the accepted standards of practice, with following a conventional theme for entries.

EDIT:
And what I want here for this first week or two is arguments to add or remove a theme from the poll, not why you vote for a theme, you can do it when the poll is open.

Good for you, but that doesn't exactly mean every post must be a request to remove/add themes just because you decided you wanted them to be, and how dare I voice an opinion or say why I prefer certain themes, that's not reasonable to expect at all!

 

[Kazeon]

Also I made no such contradiction - have you considered that entries/themes can be unique and still follow coding conventions? you know, like in every single other zephyr contest ever? don't conflate following the conventions of programming and the accepted standards of practice, with following a conventional theme for entries.

Do you think Aura is unique? I don't think so. If you want something unique, be dare to break the rule. We have thousands of follow-the-conventions spells in the spell section. I'm afraid we can't produce a that unique theme out of them.

And please, sir, just stop arguing every little thing I said here. You got no merits by doing so. Except if it's that urgent.

 

[Tank-Commander]

Do you think Aura is unique? I don't think so. If you want something unique, be dare to break the rule. We have thousands of follow-the-conventions spells in the spell section. I'm afraid we can't produce a that unique theme out of them.

Then I dare say that I do not think you have a place in this contest, judge or otherwise, if you do not think that anything unique can come of abiding by the rules set out.

And please, sir, just stop arguing every little thing I said here. You got no merits by doing so. Except if it's that urgent.

So you're suggesting I don't bother defending my own position, because I won't be rewarded or "get merit"? what makes you think I'm defending myself for rewards/merit? I'm defending my position because it was questioned and falsely reprisented, like any rational human would - you wanted debate, so debate.

 

[Kazeon]

Then I dare say that I do not think you have a place in this contest, judge or otherwise, if you do not think that anything unique can come of abiding by the rules set out.

Believe it or not, but that's your point from the beginning. Better I will just ignore someone like you.

This thread does not entirely contain my theme idea only. This is a brainstorming thread where everybody supposed to speak out their opinions about the theme and rules. To produce a well prepared and unique-themed contest. You are free to offer new theme with it's description. That was just all my theme suggestions, you are free to argue, shout out your reason why should I remove it, but it's also free for me to argue why I suggest those themes.

This is just like the other theme picking thread. So I don't know how on earth this thread turns into a debate club LOL

So you're suggesting I don't bother defending my own position, because I won't be rewarded or "get merit"? what makes you think I'm defending myself for rewards/merit? I'm defending my position because it was questioned and falsely reprisented, like any rational human would - you wanted debate, so debate.

I presented some arguments about why I post this and that yet you argue every single thing I said there. I don't get the logic of this "you wanted debate, so debate". You ARE the one who started it.

 

[Tank-Commander]

Believe it or not, but that's your point from the beginning. Better I will just ignore someone like you.

Well it's great to know that other people can tell me my intentions for me in an attempt to undermine my character

This is just like the other theme picking thread. So I don't know how on earth this thread turns into a debate club LOL

Well it's really rather simple, you suggested a theme, I disagreed with it, debate ensues over the theme. Isn't that what you wanted?

I presented some arguments about why I post this and that yet you argue every single thing I said there. I don't get the logic of this "you wanted debate, so debate". You ARE the one who started it.

Same as above, unless you're telling me that this:

And what I want here for this first week or two is arguments to add or remove a theme from the poll, not why you vote for a theme, you can do it when the poll is open.

Doesn't reflect what you want - I've not known somebody to say "I want argument" and then be surprised when there's argument - it would also explain why a debate so easily arose if this was your intention.

Anyway, back to the much more important matter of themes, just to throw something out there, perhaps Unit manipulation? specifically controlling units (dragging them, throwing, capture, that sort of thing) or one of the ones which missed out last time, Diminishing returns, or snowballing effects?

Edit: though personally I don't see how I was the one to "start it" considering I gave my opinion, then you were the one to directly respond to it. But this isn't a game of patty cake, it's irrelevent whom began the debate

 

[Kazeon]

Anyway, back to the much more important matter of themes, just to throw something out there, perhaps Unit manipulation? specifically controlling units (dragging them, throwing, capture, that sort of thing) or one of the ones which missed out last time, Diminishing returns, or snowballing effects?

I will add them tomorrow Please notify me if I need to change some things.

Anyway, should I remove the "Cinematic" theme? I'm not sure.

 

[PurgeandFire]

Apparently not; if you can't see why using camera effects is bad I certainly wouldn't consider you qualified enough. This is a programming contest not a film contest - while being able to give a visually appealing entry is positive and should hold /some/ value, it should not overrule code efficiency and proper conventions under any case.

Spell contests were never "programming" contests--they were always a combination of: (1) a good concept (2) code (3) [usually] some visual.

It is understandable to be against it since camera changes would restrict code to MPI, but that doesn't limit the creative power of the coder. MUI is a standard for things that should work on multiple units--but if something isn't meant to work on multiple units (or doesn't make logical sense to) then it isn't breaking any conventions.

I agree that it may be a bit too visual-focused to serve as a solid zephyr theme, but there is a lot of potential beyond the mere smash ball-esque spell. I actually thought the theme was pretty neat. I just don't know how it would play out in a zephyr contest--it might be too restrictive. Could be cool for a mini-spell contest though.

-----

That aside, I really like the combo idea. I also really like Kingz idea about Blood Magic (from the last poll) -- a spell that has a drawback e.g. you deal increased damage but you are reduced to 0 armor (that is a boring example, but that is the gist of it).

Or maybe a theme for Crowd Control? A crowd control ability is an ability that stuns, hinders, controls, etc. one or more units (e.g. statis trap, storm bolt, sleep, etc.). What do you think?

 

[GywGod133]

Elements Spell is good for me

 

[Kazeon]

Spell contests were never "programming" contests--they were always a combination of: (1) a good concept (2) code (3) [usually] some visual.

It is understandable to be against it since camera changes would restrict code to MPI, but that doesn't limit the creative power of the coder. MUI is a standard for things that should work on multiple units--but if something isn't meant to work on multiple units (or doesn't make logical sense to) then it isn't breaking any conventions.

I agree that it may be a bit too visual-focused to serve as a solid zephyr theme, but there is a lot of potential beyond the mere smash ball-esque spell. I actually thought the theme was pretty neat. I just don't know how it would play out in a zephyr contest--it might be too restrictive. Could be cool for a mini-spell contest though.

So, do you think "Cinematic" deserves a position in the list?

a spell that has a drawback e.g. you deal increased damage but you are reduced to 0 armor (that is a boring example, but that is the gist of it).

Nice. Will be added.

Or maybe a theme for Crowd Control? A crowd control ability is an ability that stuns, hinders, controls, etc. one or more units (e.g. statis trap, storm bolt, sleep, etc.). What do you think?

Looking at your examples, so it's more like an AoE-ish spells with unique effects? I can imagine some nice spells out of it, but doesn't it sound a bit too generic and just-normal? We have a bunch of such spell in the spell section.

But still, actually, I think generic theme doesn't really affect contestants' creativity. Someone creative will always be able to produce something unique out of one common context. So I just simply disagree that the theme should be that outstanding. Anyway, I will add this theme to the list.

 

[Vinz]

An interesting idea from the previous Zephyr theme polling thread. Design spells which can have multiple effects based on their cast order.

Wait, we are only to make one spell right?

 

[Chaosy]

Why would you love it? vJass either GUI have exactly same portion of score. If your GUI is well coded while other's vJass is not that good, you will have more score no matter what. There is no discrimination on this matter.

Most of the top notch modders in terms of triggering use vjass, so if we take that away I have a chance at least x)

 

[Kazeon]

Wait, we are only to make one spell right?

It depends on the chosen theme.

so if we take that away I have a chance at least x)

You will still having the same chance even if you are the only GUI-er among 100 vJass-ers in this contest.

 

[Vinz]

Crowd control is a type of buff by the way. I think LoL used that term first, for Roots, Slows, Silences, Blinds, Stuns, etc. It doesn't really have to be AOE. Some spells are instant target (ex. Morgana's Soul Shackles; slows nearby enemies and stuns them if they don't leave).

 

[PurgeandFire]

Looking at your examples, so it's more like an AoE-ish spells with unique effects? I can imagine some nice spells out of it, but doesn't it sound a bit too generic and just-normal? We have a bunch of such spell in the spell section.

But still, actually, I think generic theme doesn't really affect contestants' creativity. Someone creative will always be able to produce something unique out of one common context. So I just simply disagree that the theme should be that outstanding. Anyway, I will add this theme to the list.

As Mythic said, it doesn't have to be AoE. For example, polymorph is a common CC (crowd control) ability. And yes, I don't think themes have to be particularly outstanding. e.g. Aura is pretty common. But people can always find a way to produce something creative.

I think LoL used that term first, for Roots, Slows, Silences, Blinds, Stuns, etc.

As far as I know, the term was first popularized by EverQuest then WoW.

 

[Kazeon]

Okay, I will update the thread tomorrow (my last exam) with new topics and thoughts

 

[Vinz]

@Purge Ah, thanks for telling.

@Dal Will this turn into a poll?

 

[Kazeon]

Yes sure, but let's wait until we have enough theme options

 

[Kazeon]

Any other opinions guys?

I'm currently updating this thread with more reasonable contents and some new offered themes. I'm sorry that the thread was doubtful because I was working on it in a hurry (exam days). Hopefully I can finish it tomorrow or even tonight.

Regards,

Okay, it's been updated. Now this thread discuss especially about contest theme.

 

[Chaosy]

Blood magic sounds really good too.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'd like to throw out another Suggestion:

Troll: Craft a fitting spell for our nefarious, xenophobic, tribal bruddas here, mon! Whether wards & voodoo for da Gurubashi, ice & brutality for da Drakkari, axes & cunning for da Amani, sand & fury for da Farraki, or any oder kinda Troll, make a spell dat will honor de ancestors!

Lol.

"Do you want to add public voting/polling into final score calculation?" - public polling is part of the default format for zephyr, I also can't condone removal of the voice of the public. We've already gone through reductions to the effect of public polling and multiple times have debates come up about whether or not it should be included and bias' of people which was then extended into the bias of judges.

I am one of those who have called for a retrofit to the Polling/Voting process, due to what I have experienced/perceived as several distinct issues (primarily with accountability).

It might be something to consider, then; having a purely "popularity vote"-type Poll that does not affect the scores.

Duration of the contest needs to be considered once we have a rough starting area for it, at this point there's no real need or point to doing so - last contest was held during exam season so some people couldn't participate due to the contest's length such things are what we need to be considering. Starting "ASAP" is also not the best of conventions

Good point.

Build the rules? don't we already have an accepted format for zephyr? why do they need building?

I'm sure we do, but if people want to suggest additions or submit alternative templates for Contests (ostensibly, in order to improve them), I don't see the problem. It's what I've been doing for a bit now.

And this is one you decided to add by yourself? Have you not considered that deadline extensions tend to be done on a case-by-case basis? There is no reason for that to be a rule as it CANNOT be violated if no extension is given, all that does is set in stone that the contest is inflexible by stating that there's no point in asking for one. You also cannot just bolt on rules without any consensus - it's inconsiderate.

I see what you're saying (& agree that "deadline extensions" should not be mandated either way)... But he's not "just bolt[ing] on rules without any consensus"; this very topic is his form of seeking consensus. It's not official 'til it's Hosted & moved by Mods, so he's putting this up there and asking "What say ye"?

(Of course, it doesn't appear that he actually changed any Rules aside from potentially adding the one about deadlines, so whatevs)

That effectively boils down into "do whatever the hell you want, just make sure the effects are brown/use rocks/etc."...
I think it's forgotten all too often that to make your spell "elemental" all you do is change the effects, that's it - very few spells can you /not/ make elemental based

I guess this makes sense, but consider that those who do abuse the Theme like that (i.e. "make random spell -> apply dusty brown SFX -> = Earth Elemental Spell!") would get shafted in the Judging...

That's not my instantly-added rule, I need some corrections. I add this question since I experience a lot of rule modifications in the last Hero contest, I don't like a poorly prepared contest like that. I hope the rules and all constraints are ready to be applied when the contest starts. So there is no rule inconsistency (updates/changes) in the process.

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, I don't feel you have much support for that view, since my original contest submission/discussion thread (in the same vein as yours here now) was available for discussion nearly a full year before the actual Contest happened. It was not poorly-prepared; it was poorly-discussed (which is out of my control). Then people (including myself) wanted a Hero Contest, and mine was chosen... As a result, I did the best I could, but there were still some Rules that needed refining when the Contest came to fruition.

...Also, you "hope", "(updates/changes) in the process"? I don't think it's clear to you how this works: you do not change the rules of a contest DURING a contest. If they aren't "ready" by then, they are not to be implemented, if there is no consensus on a given rule, it is NOT to be implemented.

One does the best one can. Ideally, yes, the Rules of a Contest should be stable. At the same time, ideally the deadline should remain stable, yet we allow extensions under extenuating circumstances. Similarly, if it's discovered that something is awry or needs re-working, Rule changes (when generally agreed upon) can be beneficial things, I submit.

It can be difficult to get unanimous & far-enough-reaching consensus, however, due to a number of factors. One cannot simply walk into Mordor hold a separate Poll for each & every Rule-change, for example; just not feasible.

Limiting code size is a stupid idea.
Don't do it in Zephyr.

If you want to do something like this, you have to call it Code Golf. Ask users to create something that accomplishes a
certain task with minimal code size in characters. Score would be calculated based on the code length and community
votes rather than efficiency and structure.

It's actually a thing.

That would be a whole different type of contest.

Y'know, that's a good point, and a really interesting idea... What do (you) people think about having other kinds of Contests? Like not just one "Coding" Contest, but having the regular "Zephyr" and then a "Mini-Zephyr" (i.e. "Code Golf"), and/or others? Too much overlap? I think this could be a good idea.

Wait, we are only to make one spell right?

Depends on the Theme chosen. Mine submitted idea, for example, might be 'simple' enough that we should perhaps have us do 2-5 spells (much like the Icon-drawing Contest(s) feature 4 or more icons per contestant).

 

[Vinz]

I guess this makes sense, but consider that those who do abuse the Theme like that (i.e. "make random spell -> apply dusty brown SFX -> = Earth Elemental Spell!") would get shafted in the Judging...

I agree. It's kinda okay for the elements theme to be wide, the spell/s itself have to stick to its element to have a good score (or probably, to not be disqualified).

 

[fladdermasken]

Seeing as the polling thread is up this thread serves no further purpose

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