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Zephyr Contest #12 theme discussion

Discussion in 'Submissions Archive' started by Kazeon, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    Welcome to the Zephyr Contest #12 theme discussion thread! Here we are brainstorming about theme for the next Zephyr contest. If you have any or some, please shout them all. But please, also attach a short but understand-able description about your idea. As long as it's not a troll, it will be added to the list no matter what. So just don't hesitate to speak out ;)

    P.S. Polling will be started on 16th October (hopefully).

    Current suggested themes:
    Theme
    [titletd]
    Description

    [tr]Elemental (earth/wind/fire/water)[td]Choose one between those elements as the theme.
    [tr]Uncommon/Bizzare[td]Uncommon means a very-unique spell that likely doesn't fit Warcraft 3 style and doesn't look like common spells (example: 1, 2, 3). Contestants have to create those kind of spell.
    [tr]Combo[td]An interesting idea from the previous Zephyr theme polling thread. Design spells which can have multiple effects based on their cast order.
    [tr]Animal[td]Create a spell that suits and is one special (or not) ability of an animal or even fantasy creature you have ever heard of. Example:
    (Animal) Lion => Roar
    (Fantasy creature) Gargoyle => Stone Form
    [tr]Unit manipulation[td]Specifically controlling units (dragging them, throwing, capture, that sort of thing)
    [tr]Increasing Power[td]Spell increases in power with multiple frequent casts, be it damage, duration, debuff strength, buff strength, change in spell effect, etc
    [tr]Diminishing returns[td]Opposite of Increasing Power
    [tr][B]Crowd Control[/B][td]A crowd control ability is an ability that stuns, hinders, controls, etc. one or more units (e.g. statis trap, storm bolt, sleep, etc.)
    [tr][B]Blood Magic[/B][td]A spell that has a drawback e.g. you deal increased damage but you are reduced to 0 armor.
    [tr][B]Creative Warcraft3-Style[/B][td]Abilities that are unique, creative & useful while still mundane enough to be found on a classic in-game Hero. (Probably) each contestant have to create more than 2 spells.
    [tr]...[td]...
    [/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/titletd]
    [tr][titletd][titletd][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/titletd][/titletd][/tr]
    [tr][titletd][titletd][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/titletd][/titletd][/tr]​
    [tr][titletd][titletd][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/titletd][/titletd][/tr]​
    [tr][titletd][titletd][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][tr][td][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/td][/tr][/titletd][/titletd][/tr]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  2. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    I vote for the elemental theme, I like Avatar way too much to turn it down.

    how about a no-(v)jass theme? I'd love that.

    on a serious note, what about an creature/animal theme? Meaning the spell have to suit with a certain creature, this doesn't need to be a bear/wolf. It might be any fantasy creature you have heard of.
     
  3. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    Limiting code size would just hinder people more than anything else, unless that limit was particularly high, unless you're excluding coding for all things but the main code (on-cast and loop), elemental theme is pretty overdone in the spell section itself, Cinematic spell I positively hate the idea of (since it permits poor code conventions), "Uncommon/Bizzare" needs some if not a lot of clarification, anything can be "not warcraft III like" just by giving it funny effects, like flying sheep for projectiles.
    an animal/creature theme could be pretty good, though I'm not sure on how you'd spin it, but it's workable

    "Do you want to add public voting/polling into final score calculation?" - public polling is part of the default format for zephyr, I also can't condone removal of the voice of the public. We've already gone through reductions to the effect of public polling and multiple times have debates come up about whether or not it should be included and bias' of people which was then extended into the bias of judges.

    Duration of the contest needs to be considered once we have a rough starting area for it, at this point there's no real need or point to doing so - last contest was held during exam season so some people couldn't participate due to the contest's length such things are what we need to be considering. Starting "ASAP" is also not the best of conventions

    Registery is not a thing that needs to be done at all. you register by showing up.

    Build the rules? don't we already have an accepted format for zephyr? why do they need building?

    At this time, I do not actively support any themes suggested but Combo (which I support but keep at arm's length) and an animal theme (which is workable) I have no suggestions of my own for now.
     
  4. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    Please, vote when the polling is open ;)

    Why would you love it? vJass either GUI have exactly same portion of score. If your GUI is well coded while other's vJass is not that good, you will have more score no matter what. There is no discrimination on this matter.

    Will be added to the list.

    No, I meant total lines including initialization function etc. Anyway, the theme will be updated with some additional constraints.

    Indeed. But using only one element as the theme is a nice way to measure contestants' creativity. Imagine this: earth element theme for a lot contestants? They will try to make the most unique and original idea so that their ideas will be the only one. Whereas idea of earth spell itself is very limited already. And yes, Earth Element is in my opinion. Fire, Water, and Wind are rather easier than Earth.

    Imagine some users are able to add some slow-motion and cool cinematic camera effects into their spell, it's cool, isn't it?
    Probably right, but we can add some exceptions for this theme. Anyway, code efficiency is still counted into the consideration, so you shouldn't be worry about that poor-conventions. But, if this theme is indeed over complicating things so I will just remove it, but currently I don't think so since I think I know how to handle and judge such spells.

    How if I change it to "Joke/Comedy" so the spell must be funny. No matter how but contestants' will have to make hilarious spell :D Garfield's chicken burst spell is one great example.

    Oh right. It's registration actually ;)

    In case contestants' want to add more rules. As example:
    I think it's one considerable rule
     
  5. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    That disadvantages people based on the code language they use, GUI for instance, uses global variables which are declared while not using any lines of code, (v)Jass does not and would consume lines just to declare them

    Using camera effects falls under the category of "poor code conventions", and as "cool" as it is, it holds no merit - that only makes things MORE based on appearences which people already complain enough about.

    Apparently not; if you can't see why using camera effects is bad I certainly wouldn't consider you qualified enough. This is a programming contest not a film contest - while being able to give a visually appealing entry is positive and should hold /some/ value, it should not overrule code efficiency and proper conventions under any case.

    And your point is supposed to be what? My point stands.

    And this is one you decided to add by yourself? Have you not considered that deadline extensions tend to be done on a case-by-case basis? There is no reason for that to be a rule as it CANNOT be violated if no extension is given, all that does is set in stone that the contest is inflexible by stating that there's no point in asking for one. You also cannot just bolt on rules without any consensus - it's inconsiderate.

    That would make the idea worse than before, sense of humour differs GREATLY between people and would only serve to skew things.

    That effectively boils down into "do whatever the hell you want, just make sure the effects are brown/use rocks/etc." there is little to no constraint beyond what effects you bolt on which can be completely replaced, I cannot agree that earth is any harder than fire water and wind, just that it looks much more dull by comparison in my opinion. I think it's forgotten all too often that to make your spell "elemental" all you do is change the effects, that's it - very few spells can you /not/ make elemental based
     
  6. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    You have a point that this theme should be removed. Okay, I will remove.

    What?

    That's not my instantly-added rule, I need some corrections. I add this question since I experience a lot of rule modifications in the last Hero contest, I don't like a poorly prepared contest like that. I hope the rules and all constraints are ready to be applied when the contest starts. So there is no rule inconsistency (updates/changes) in the process.

    That's subjective opinion. The theme will still remain in the list.

    No. The measurement is "how earth-ish is your spell?" and uniqueness is still counted in. So if you just create a homing brown missile so it's going to have a low creativity and uniqueness scores.
    What I get is that you just can't produce any unique idea out of Earth theme. That's why you stand against. Whereas I have a bunch of them, as example use terrain deformation to impale units? But in unique way of course. Sorry, but it's still just your subjective opinion, the theme stands still.
     
  7. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    I would've thought that'd be something that you suggest first and then actually get feedback on before adding it to the list. Instead of you know, the exact opposite. Also, you "hope", "(updates/changes) in the process"? I don't think it's clear to you how this works: you do not change the rules of a contest DURING a contest. If they aren't "ready" by then, they are not to be implemented, if there is no consensus on a given rule, it is NOT to be implemented.

    The fact that it makes for a worse theme? yes you could argue that's subjective. The fact that sense of humour differs from person to person and that would then only cause issues/skew things? No, that is called a statement and isn't subjective, if you can prove that people all have the same sense of humour or that adding subjective judging criteria doesn't pervert objective judging results then go ahead, but I think that's an uphill battle that will quickly be lost.

    Yes let's just undermine my position by projecting your ideas about me, as if they are my own. That's not blatantly presumptuous or displaying poor character traits! No, it can't be that I actually have a different view on what makes something elemental or appear such, it simply MUST be that I'm not creative enough to work with it. It's not like I've ever made a spell which centred around the use of rocks or easily substituted effects which would make the spell appear earthen.
    Lets say for arguments sake that I infact, don't have any ideas or that I'm a very uncreative individual. That justifies your sentiment how? "you don't like it because you're bad at it" does nothing to defend keeping it, it's just an attempt at ignoring my criticism. Heck I didn't even say "get rid of this theme it's not good enough!" All I said was that I don't like the theme and then gave my reason why. I stated which themes I support and which I don't, that is all.

    Edit: For the record, terrain deformations are also not allowed in the main spell section because they too fall under the category of "poor code conventions", they leak. You're really showing the kind of expertise in the field we need in a judge. And yes what makes something earthen is entirely subjective, and the theme does indeed stand, I'm saying that I'd expect the theme would have little impact on the submissions beyond having swapped out effects.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2014
  8. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    Whatever you say, man. But I'm too lazy to read and understand a fat sarcastic paragraph. But

    Sadly that happens in the hero contest.

    In fact, all of my theme suggestions do have impact on it, at least I've tried to, but you refused every single one with spell submission rules and some conventions. Even the most reasonable one (Joke/Comedy) you refused it too. I'm out of idea. Sorry I failed to fulfill your needs.
    And you have just contradicted your own arguments between a unique theme and just a follow-the-convention theme.

    EDIT:
    And what I want here for this first week or two is arguments to add or remove a theme from the poll, not why you vote for a theme, you can do it when the poll is open.
     
  9. Magtheridon96

    Magtheridon96

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    Limiting code size is a stupid idea.
    Don't do it in Zephyr.

    If you want to do something like this, you have to call it Code Golf. Ask users to create something that accomplishes a
    certain task with minimal code size in characters. Score would be calculated based on the code length and community
    votes rather than efficiency and structure.

    It's actually a thing.

    That would be a whole different type of contest.
     
  10. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    That one is going to be removed soon.
     
  11. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    I was referencing specifically the elemental theme, not the other themes. Please consider context of statements when trying to counter them. Yes when one of the key rules of zephyr is the fact that the spell submission rules must be abided by, I am going to reject the idea of themes which expressly violate them like the cinematic spell theme.

    Also I made no such contradiction - have you considered that entries/themes can be unique and still follow coding conventions? you know, like in every single other zephyr contest ever? don't conflate following the conventions of programming and the accepted standards of practice, with following a conventional theme for entries.

    Good for you, but that doesn't exactly mean every post must be a request to remove/add themes just because you decided you wanted them to be, and how dare I voice an opinion or say why I prefer certain themes, that's not reasonable to expect at all!
     
  12. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    Do you think Aura is unique? I don't think so. If you want something unique, be dare to break the rule. We have thousands of follow-the-conventions spells in the spell section. I'm afraid we can't produce a that unique theme out of them.

    And please, sir, just stop arguing every little thing I said here. You got no merits by doing so. Except if it's that urgent.
     
  13. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    Then I dare say that I do not think you have a place in this contest, judge or otherwise, if you do not think that anything unique can come of abiding by the rules set out.

    So you're suggesting I don't bother defending my own position, because I won't be rewarded or "get merit"? what makes you think I'm defending myself for rewards/merit? I'm defending my position because it was questioned and falsely reprisented, like any rational human would - you wanted debate, so debate.
     
  14. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    Believe it or not, but that's your point from the beginning. Better I will just ignore someone like you. :)

    This thread does not entirely contain my theme idea only. This is a brainstorming thread where everybody supposed to speak out their opinions about the theme and rules. To produce a well prepared and unique-themed contest. You are free to offer new theme with it's description. That was just all my theme suggestions, you are free to argue, shout out your reason why should I remove it, but it's also free for me to argue why I suggest those themes.

    This is just like the other theme picking thread. So I don't know how on earth this thread turns into a debate club LOL

    I presented some arguments about why I post this and that yet you argue every single thing I said there. I don't get the logic of this "you wanted debate, so debate". You ARE the one who started it.
     
  15. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    Well it's great to know that other people can tell me my intentions for me in an attempt to undermine my character

    Well it's really rather simple, you suggested a theme, I disagreed with it, debate ensues over the theme. Isn't that what you wanted?

    Same as above, unless you're telling me that this:
    Doesn't reflect what you want - I've not known somebody to say "I want argument" and then be surprised when there's argument - it would also explain why a debate so easily arose if this was your intention.

    Anyway, back to the much more important matter of themes, just to throw something out there, perhaps Unit manipulation? specifically controlling units (dragging them, throwing, capture, that sort of thing) or one of the ones which missed out last time, Diminishing returns, or snowballing effects?

    Edit: though personally I don't see how I was the one to "start it" considering I gave my opinion, then you were the one to directly respond to it. But this isn't a game of patty cake, it's irrelevent whom began the debate
     
  16. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    I will add them tomorrow ;) Please notify me if I need to change some things.

    Anyway, should I remove the "Cinematic" theme? I'm not sure.
     
  17. PurgeandFire

    PurgeandFire

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    Spell contests were never "programming" contests--they were always a combination of: (1) a good concept (2) code (3) [usually] some visual.

    It is understandable to be against it since camera changes would restrict code to MPI, but that doesn't limit the creative power of the coder. MUI is a standard for things that should work on multiple units--but if something isn't meant to work on multiple units (or doesn't make logical sense to) then it isn't breaking any conventions.

    I agree that it may be a bit too visual-focused to serve as a solid zephyr theme, but there is a lot of potential beyond the mere smash ball-esque spell. I actually thought the theme was pretty neat. I just don't know how it would play out in a zephyr contest--it might be too restrictive. Could be cool for a mini-spell contest though.

    -----

    That aside, I really like the combo idea. I also really like Kingz idea about Blood Magic (from the last poll) -- a spell that has a drawback e.g. you deal increased damage but you are reduced to 0 armor (that is a boring example, but that is the gist of it).

    Or maybe a theme for Crowd Control? A crowd control ability is an ability that stuns, hinders, controls, etc. one or more units (e.g. statis trap, storm bolt, sleep, etc.). What do you think?
     
  18. GywGod133

    GywGod133

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    Elements Spell is good for me
     
  19. Kazeon

    Kazeon

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    So, do you think "Cinematic" deserves a position in the list?

    Nice. Will be added.

    Looking at your examples, so it's more like an AoE-ish spells with unique effects? I can imagine some nice spells out of it, but doesn't it sound a bit too generic and just-normal? We have a bunch of such spell in the spell section.

    But still, actually, I think generic theme doesn't really affect contestants' creativity. Someone creative will always be able to produce something unique out of one common context. So I just simply disagree that the theme should be that outstanding. Anyway, I will add this theme to the list.
     
  20. Mythic

    Mythic

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    Wait, we are only to make one spell right?