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What is your preferred language for developing Warcraft III maps?

Discussion in 'Warcraft Discussion' started by MindWorX, May 30, 2018.

?

What is your preferred language for developing Warcraft III maps?

Poll closed Jun 13, 2018.
  1. Jass

    80 vote(s)
    27.4%
  2. vJass

    87 vote(s)
    29.8%
  3. cJass

    9 vote(s)
    3.1%
  4. Lua

    18 vote(s)
    6.2%
  5. Zinc

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  6. Wurst

    46 vote(s)
    15.8%
  7. vrJass/vrJass2

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  8. I don't program maps directly. I just use the trigger GUI.

    173 vote(s)
    59.2%
  9. Other

    10 vote(s)
    3.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

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    I'm not sure what exactly you plan to do with this survey data, but if you want to extend the world editor in a fashion similar to WEX, I don't think Wurst should play a role there, because the main point of it is to get away from that clunky mess and use the world editor for terrain only.

    As @Sir Moriarty already elaborated in detail, Wurst was made by developers, for developers. Pretty much all of us work in the IT industry and want a user experience close to that of a standalone language/framework - for Warcaft III. With Wurst and the related tools developed, we finally achieved complete independence from the game files and can make maps without them entirely.

    Of course this is a niche. If you want your changes to benefit most map makers, focus on GUI and editor tooling. If, in the same process, features are exposed which can be used by wurst, that would be ideal imho.
     
  2. MyPad

    MyPad

    Spell Reviewer

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    Is @Ruke still working on vrJASS?
     
  3. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    [my second post]

    depending ofc on what do you exactly have in mind for the map, Updating GUI can be much more beneficial for the future of modding in this community, first of all the statements that are risen that people who are not investing in (jass/vjass/wurst and other methods) just because they are not passionate enough to invest time in learning something can be very wrong in certain situations. for the most part however i have seen many people not getting into map making at all just because of GUI to begin with, let alone jass and wurst, so updating GUI can bring new people into modding as a whole.

    not trying to hit people nor the community in the head AT ALL but the modding community (the actual people who sit down and make maps) is not very big and due to people not gaining anything from map making other then doing it for the love of the game, its hard for them to get into modding, learn GUI and decide if they want to move on to harder stuff or not or just drop out of the current idea's they have.

    we've all been there, ditching ideas after another, and also since some people can't find time and just prefer to do it as a hobby.

    unlike me, i'm one of the map makers that loves using GUI and is really passionate about what he can make for everyone to play, but investing time in learning it the hard way around in 2018 is not very comfortable for me, including when i have collage to attend to. but that's still me i have already started mapping for around 3 year's and started a project 1/5 year ago until now. but people who are trying to come into mapping if they are NEW and end up getting comfortable with GUI and if GUI happens to have more advancements it can really cover anything a map maker need's.

    unless someone plans to start a huge project requiring 3 to 4 years worth of work GUI can pretty much handle this.

    as for new things that can really impact map making and catapult the work of a lot of people i can say a small part for myself, i also found ( Mirage1's ) suggestions really useful, for me in person however: i have taken notice that with the help of ingame buff's one can really do marvel's in terms of adding new mechanics for abilities and even effecting other mechanics using abilities combined with buff's which can be used as one of the best detection system's for ability usage combined with auras.

    adding functions such as [ buff is applied, buff expires, buff is dispelled, buff ends ]

    or event: unit has a buff

    can also really help us.

    improving GUI can be much better in the long term as we would spend more time investing in making the things we love instead investing to learning how to make them to begin with for a longer term as learning GUI is easier and faster then other methods and it would appeal to newcomers when they see what can they do with it. and for those who say GUI is clunky and hard to maneuver in my personal opinion is not true at all and it even is more easy for me to copy paste my own work around my map's to increase the development rate of abilities, mechanics, functions and event's that fuel a map.

     
  4. maxxxus

    maxxxus

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    ooh, thanks for explain your point. i think i'll learn more about wurst or lua; jass is really tedious and boring as you said. this is why i think we can't vote only for a language if you don't know how are the rest of them. i'd vote gui or jass just for being the only languages i know; wurst could be more cool than those.
     
  5. Ouguiya

    Ouguiya

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    I made my original map with GUI and holy goofs, was it buggy! And slow (both to create, to debug and while running the map).

    I recently got back into mapping and discovered Wurst and have been completely blown away. It's an amazing language. In my humble opinion, it is what JASS should have been like, with all the features offered by the VSCode integration. If you haven't tried it yet, @MindWorX , I can only recommend it. I am guessing that the number of users would be much higher if:

    A - More people knew about it
    B - More people knew about programming in general and
    C - If something like this was already integrated.

    Hence, my vote goes to Wurst, all the way. And the only thing I'm sad at is that I only have a single vote to give.
     
  6. Kaijyuu

    Kaijyuu

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    If we're even remotely considering having another inbuilt scripting language, my vote goes for Python. Then again, I'm a fanboy of that language, so :p
     
  7. Light

    Light

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    It's the programming language I'm learning (I'd learn more about JASS's syntax, but learning Python is much better for me in the future), so I support! :)
     
  8. Bribe

    Bribe

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    Then you guys would like Wurst (if not just for its indentation-based syntax).
     
  9. nnnnnnoT_T

    nnnnnnoT_T

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    Wurst is pretty nice.
     
  10. yatyfornetreg

    yatyfornetreg

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    wow, didn't expected the low penetration rate of Zinc.

    Anyways, I found it's a bad idea if you try to invent a new language to the system. Human energy is limited.

    JASS3? No please don't do that if there's a plan. I beg for that.

    Things I think will benefit the community:

    1. Fix the return bug of wc3 VM. Don't try to just fix it by changing the JASS compiler to fool us.

    2. Add signature to the map. We certainly don't want our maps to be hacked and redistributed to the internet.

    2.1. I know in the western world, people are more respectful to other people's hard work and creation. But it is not the case in China. There are a few G-arena-like platforms here and countless maps are stolen from one platform to another, by just - unzip the map - change a few models or texts or numeric values - zip the map - redistribute the map to another platform.

    2.2. Believe it or not, Chinese community is probably the best reason why Blizzard still wants to update wc3 even that we have a dishonored history (it's safe to say more than 95% players and authors are using pirated version in China). After some non-Chinese (that's all I know) guys had hacked wc3 and enables external dll. In western community we've witnessed some wc3 map viruses and cool (but bad) stuff. But in China, some developers started to write dlls to --

    enable IN-APP-PURCHASING in wc3 map
    .

    After years, until 2017, the market grew to a reasonable enough scale that had drawn Blizzard's attention. Most of the new APIs you've seen in patch 1.29 was invented long ago by hacking the map (yes of course, using return bugs and external dlls). And Netease (Blizzard's current operator in China) had bundled things up. (read the post on HIVE's home page to understand it's not some child's play WC3 World Championship - Summer 2018).

    To clear things up

    - I'm not drinking alcohol while writing this post
    - Netease is Blizzard's partner in China, it also runs WOW, Diablo 3, SC2, and rest of Blizzard games
    - Netease had published a G-arena like platform in China, which allows players to use pirated version and yes Blizzard knows this. Of course this version is modified to enable external dlls

    Here's a UI system. Pure native and screen overlay, no trackables, no stupid units model flying in a locked camera. This is what it is capable of:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (images from 魔兽地图编辑器吧-百度贴吧--中国人气最旺的魔兽3地图编辑讨论社区。)

    Besides the UI system, there are things like:
    - HTTP request
    - Platform scoped Achievements, user profiles, etc..
    - Guild system
    and more.

    2.3. Back to the story of other Chinese people being not respectful to other's work. Here's a new story. Around 7 years ago, a Chinese guy has localized JNGP and add some small gadgets - called it YDWE. After years of evolution, it is far more powerful than it was and became the de-facto standard tool in China. It is now maintained by Actboy168 and sumneko hosted on GitHub (actboy168/YDWE). Some of you might be familiar with Actboy168 because he's promoting his new optimizer in HIVE lately. Anyways, if you could read, you'll know that YDWE is published under Apache license.

    However, Blizzard's partner in China, Netease, had used & modified the source code and then distributed it to the Chinese community (they just changed the version name for now, but I believe it will be something like "Netease Editor") without any copyright files and statements, i.e. disrespect Apache license. We don't have solid evidence that this is done by Netease but we'll keep watching this case. And Chinese law does not respect global software licensing neither, instead using another stupid and effectiveless system which I'll not discuss here.

    2.4. Okay, that should be long enough for the background build-up. All I try to say is, there's a huge underworld out there and someone starts to make money from it in a dishonored way. Blizzard didn't care about this for a long time but now start to watch this just because money. I despise both of them.

    2.5. Enabling digital signature would be a great way to prevent Netease to steal maps from the western communities. And it also brings confidence to pure map makers like me in China. Although it will not stop people in my country from using legacy version of wc3 but I think this by far is the best way to stop the loss.

    3. Fix the known issues ASAP, like BlzSetItemExtendedTooltip.

    4. Find better ways to support wurst. It's nice and brought us modern language features to write maps. Closures, intellisense (thanks to VS code), and so on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  11. puffdragon

    puffdragon

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    Personally I use only JASS (jasscraft). The main reason is that, I didn't really trust 3rd party tools to be updated when there are changes to the game. But, Wurst style or LUA would be very nice to have. (tending a bit more towards Wurst but either would do).

    Just PLEASE, for w/e changes, keep backward compatibility for old school users. (And for people like me that do not have able free time to be updated to such a radical changes in small amount of time)

    Like make it option (as it is now kinda). JASS or Wurst syntax for example.
     
  12. yxq1122

    yxq1122

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    I choose Jass and cJass. Jass can be used to prevent compatible issues. The syntax of cJass is much closer to that of C/C++.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  13. sumneko

    sumneko

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  14. The Panda

    The Panda

    Icon Reviewer

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    I mean not every is smart enough for the JASS and VJASS I just use the regular triggers honestly.. but even those im not really good at either lol. I just wish they would make the trigger system much easier for beginners or people who want to make a map quick or whatever.
     
  15. OutsiderXE

    OutsiderXE

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    GUI! Everything else will just break at some point.
     
  16. BloodForBlood

    BloodForBlood

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    Why 60.3% GUI? :xxd::xxd:
     
  17. Cokemonkey11

    Cokemonkey11

    Wurst Reviewer

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    In this post I hope to:

    - explain why I use wurst
    - guess why this thread exists
    - make some observations based on those guesses
    - extinguish some misunderstandings
    - help us guess better in the future
    - propose some good, practical options that blizzard might do to aide the modding community

    This thread is about what the preferred language is for modding in wc3. My preferred language is wurst because:

    - I'm still interested in wc3 modding but I'm the most time-limited that I've ever been. As previously mentioned, most wurst users are professional programmers or otherwise engineers. I only have about 8 hours a month to spend on wc3 modding these days, so I choose the most *efficient* environment/community to participate in. That's wurst by far.


    A blizzard representative is asking this question for a reason, but not giving more details about why the survey exists. I think there are two reasons that might be:

    - the usual blizzard way of keeping things a secret until they're finished (don't want to get users too excited, right?)
    - statistically valid reasons - i.e. don't want to color/bias our resonses (I don't believe this is the case)

    So I must guess that this thread exists because:

    - Blizzard plans to allocate some resource towards maintaining/improving things for modders
    - This survey is about understanding what developers will be affected, and how, by those changes; and how it could affect the greater community

    So here are some guesses about how blizzard might do that...

    - adding more GUI commands that implement "missing" function achievable only in JASS
    - adding more JASS natives
    - adding features to the world editor
    - fixing existing bugs
    - improving behavior/performance of GUI/JASS/existing natives/wc3 abilities
    - improving things more generally, but "breaking" existing tooling (a-la 1.29)

    Of these, I can think of some possible negative side-effects, against which blizzard must hedge their bets:

    - leaving developers feeling underwhelmed/unimpressed by a wc3 update (new GUI commands that power-developers wont use)
    - failing to lower the barrier-to-entry for beginner developers (adding new natives that mostly power-developers are interested in)
    - failing to understand how productive developers defeat jank/writer's block/discovery (adding world-editor features that are only used by beginners)
    - causing regressions or otherwise poor cost-to-benefit ratio when fixing bugs (casual users are unimpressed if you fix rare/niche bugs)
    - fixing problems that only a subset of power developers care about (GUI and wurst users don't have to think about nulling locals, for example)
    - disrupting power users so significantly that they don't come back (major game-breaking/changing updates that make e.g. a third-party compiler/preprocessor stop working)

    With that in mind, I have some thoughts:

    - The best changes are the ones that lower cost to entry, because in my experience, new developers are likely to find their own preferred development tooling, and it's actually hard to guess their past expertise. The wurst community has seen lots of completely new developers starting with wurst from scratch
    - Not breaking vJass is worthwhile. Unlike wurst, the vjass tools are sort of black-box. There are no developers actively working on vJass tools, so if they break, lots of stuff breaks
    - If you break our tools we mostly won't complain, but only if we know it will break in advance. "surprising" us with features is painful. Give us better visibility, like this
    - adding new natives as done in 1.29 is awesome (when they work), and benefits both experienced developers and end-users of funmaps.


    Onto misunderstandings:

    Misunderstanding I: power developers don't like beginner developers/GUI users

    It isn't true. Lots of us dislike reading/reviewing GUI triggers, but the vast majority of us started as children writing GUI triggers ourselves, and will happily help GUI users learn wurst (or vjass)

    - See also carefully crafted scripts made just for beginners - Damage Engine 3.8.0.0

    Misunderstanding II: everyone's opinion should be equal and hiveworkshop does/can represent wc3 modders fairly

    For lots of reasons this isn't true. Only a select few users in this thread have used all 3 of GUI/vjass/wurst meaningfully, and another huge set of people aren't around today to participate in this thread.

    - keep also in mind China, SE Asia, and Russians, who all have a different view of developer tooling
    - we're all guessing why blizzard is asking this question/conducting this survey, and acting in our own interests
    - We're too few to make useful statistical inferences. Our age, background experience, available time, etc are all hugely varying.
    - even the very most experienced among us have blind-spots. @DracoL1ch and @TriggerHappy for example are (among) the only users here who have strong enough engine knowledge to make educated guesses about what's hard or easy to add in wc3 patches.

    Misunderstanding III: vJass and wurst are pretty similar, but wurst is more like python

    Wurst couldn't be more different than vjass or python, and users that draw conclusions about the first without substantial programming experience can't give useful opinions or feedback in threads like this.

    Misunderstanding IV: if some modding tooling breaks, we're all affected equally

    Not at all. Wurst still has numerous active tool developers that can and will circumvent breaking updates. vjass does not.

    --

    Guessing better in the future:

    The only way for us in this community to give you better feedback is if we have more visibility into what blizzard is considering. That means:

    - context is everything. To start with, what's this survey for? It's not even worth thinking about - just tell us.
    - you can't rely on power developers to be contacting your representatives directly. As I alluded to before, some of us have magnitudes less time to spend on wc3 modding than we did in the past - but that doesn't mean our contribution to the community is insubstantial.
    - fair and open dialog are totally necessary in any open community
    - worrying that users will be sad if you don't deliver something (which was never commited to anyway!) is silly

    --

    Finally, here's what I think are some good, useful ideas for 1.30 - in the context of developer tooling

    - An official (or blizzard-endorsed) one-stop introductory experience for new developers. This means documentation, executive summary, tutorials, etc for blizzard modding tools and things like paths, object ids, etc.
    - official editor performance improvements (make GUI and object editor respond faster)
    - modular editor subsystems (it would be great if I could launch a shared/official icon picker for world editor, from within vscode when writing wurst)
    - official, sandboxed/secure natives for file and network IO
    - platform stability (official linux client)
     
  18. Unryze

    Unryze

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    I got used to pure Jass, but I do it in a very unusual way, I use notepad++ and code directly in war3map.j, so I can do whatever I want with it. Meaning i DO NOT use WE for script at all, only for making units/abilities, etc. I will demonstrate part of it, in case it will be bothersome I will remove it, so let's begin:

    1. Ablility to customize Main function without any OP limits or confusion and even config.
    CustomMain.png CustomConfig.png UsefulData.png
    I do know ExecuteFunc is slower, etc, but I dislike Call(), because it's logic is to literally put code from where you call it, however this makes me unable to use another ExecuteFunc normally, without causing threading problems, but I've never had problems with it.

    And yes, I do not use InitBlizzard, I only use some globals from blizzard.j, so I don't need to declare them again.

    2. Free of any limitation of WE / Compiler.

    Yes, this means an external syntax check and manual labour, but working like this for like 4+ years made me just stick with it.

    3. Ease of use / Transfer.

    By working directly with "out" part of the code you get used to working with any maps code, meaning ultimately you get the ability to pick things from others and easily adapt them to yourself.

    4. Time saving.

    Some of you might say, that using pure Jass is in fact slower, I would argue. I can pop my code in MPQ Editor and instantly test the changes, or use external syntax check, so I don't need to load the whole map in WE, etc. As for systems I can adapt them from wherever I want and then optimize them to what I see fit.

    There are many other points, but I don't want to take up too much space, all in all, this is by no means good for beginners / normal people, but for some people that are like me, this is certainly good.

    Now as for things I would like to see as natives:

    1. Change unit model with code: native SetUnitModel takes unit WhichUnit, string WhichModel returns nothing
    2. Change unit HP/MP regen with code: native SetUnitHPRegen takes unit WhichUnit, real amount, real Rate <- same with MP.
    3. Add possibility to edit UI, so we can add CUSTOM STATS or change the amount of abilities that fit in one line, you can see that in RenderEdge.

    So far those are the things I would LOVE to see and would benefit a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  19. yatyfornetreg

    yatyfornetreg

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    Firstly I'll discuss on your 3 requests, and then I have a few different opinions on how you make maps, hope you are not mad on me.

    1. Search for the "chaos" abilities and have try. A neat API is always good, but for now, chaos would do the most job without too much hassle.
    2. If you are not happy with the default regens, you can set those in game contants. "Menu" -> "Advanced" -> "Gameplay Constants". If you already know that, but you just want to change the regen values at runtime. Just set those constants to 0 and code it on your own. It shouldn't be too hard since you already know how to code in JASS. Create a forever running Timer, and loop through all units in map every second and set their MP/HP based on some global variables.
    3. That is not a easy job. Most of this functionality is done by injecting external dlls to wc3, i.e. it's not official. I believe they have more important bugs to fix right now. But I also wanted UI editing.

    Hope that helps.

    Now let's talk about how you make your map. I write this because I fear that newcomers would learn an inappropriate way to modding.

    Directly editing war3map.j is just fine. But I might not be a preferable way in terms of Ease of use / Transfer / maintainability and Time Saving.

    Again, I recommend newcomers NOT to learn to code JASS in such way.

    1. It's not easy. To deal with thousands or tens of thousands of code (especially awful language like JASS, yes JASS is awful!) is never a easy job. You need to define sections of functionality by yourself and only you know about that. Modern programming languages introduces low coupling high cohesion and modularity. Why is that? Because it's better. Of course if you are familiar with procedural languages or low level programming. It's totally fine that you do it in such way.

    2. Not sure what you mean by transfer. If you are bootstrapping your other maps with some common codes in your war3map.js, yes it's good, because you know what you are doing after all. But if you mean to share your code with others, at least I have not seen any one doing that.

    3. Say you want to change a spell later. In a well implemented modern language, you just need to find the spell file, and update it. In the entire war3map.j, you have to perform a whole context search and modify those lines. And it has a higher chance to produce new bugs because there's no interfaces defined as clearly as how it's done in a modern language. Even in GUI you can easily target the spell trigger you want to modify, and you are very confident that by modifying that very piece of trigger, other trigger won't be affected for the most cases.

    4. Time saving has different dimensions, if you are making a quick map. It could be faster. But for the long run, because of its low performance on portability and maintainability. The foreseeable time cost will be huge.

    Again, if you (@Unryze) get used to code in this way, it is totally and absolutely fine.

    But if you are reading this post and planning to port from GUI to JASS, I sincerely recommend you to learn wurst.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  20. Unryze

    Unryze

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    1. I don't think that works that way, but I will try, that does not seem like a bad idea (edit: it does not change model, it changes unit with unit, so it is not what I wanted, thanks regardless), however having a native is MUCH better and it won't take them that long, because Drakolich and Karaulov were able to do it with memhack.
    2. Again, this will stress the processor for no real need, and yet again, this is possible with memhack, meaning it should be much easier for Blizzard to make this, as these constants are produced by either calculation of STR and basic regen.
    3. Yes and no, some of it comes from the WC3 functionality itself, and only one dll, also it should no be a problem for them to add such dll, anyways, this one is not even close to mandatory, just a neat thing to have, but you are right it might be a bit way too much time consuming.

    I never said my way is any good for newcomers, in fact I said it will be hard for them, I should have added I do not expect anyone to work in such way, as it is VERY hard as you just said in the beginning, quoting myself: "this is by no means good for beginners / normal people, but for some people that are like me, this is certainly good." meaning I do not expect anyone to work in such way, just if they would like to, it might be the way to go for them, which will be like 0.01% of WC3 mapmakers.

    Now about the points you made, and yes they are fair, but I would like to comment on them.

    1. In the beginning, yes, but for me (and yes I do work with C/C++/LUA/Java(oh god I hate it), etc. (some web languages, which I doubt many people care) and I still prefer Jass syntax, it just looks better to me, if you want I can provide some parts of my code to explain it further, which I do not mind.
    2. I am sharing my code to those, who ask for a way to do things, although it is more local, aka people that know me, mostly, and my code is never obfuscated or "optimized" with any tool, so anyone can freely take it and I encourage others to do so, if they want.
    3. Well, it depends on how you look at things, for example it takes me about 30 minutes to fully code a hero, with 6 spells, with 1 storing damage to empower all others, and things like that, what I mean is, it depends on experience and how you look at things. As I said, this way is outdated, but once mastered it won't be behind even current "modern ways".
    4. On this one you are actually wrong, I hope I am not as rude as Frotty is, will explain why later as a small off-topic. As I use directly ONLY natives that mostly won't change, I make the map be supported fully wherever I want, and I can make my own functions around such natives.

    Contains a bit of off-topic:
    As for the WURST, sorry, but people like Frotty are the reason that I despise it, let me quote this "smart" person: "stubborn, stuck up, will you ever grow up?". You can like what you use, but promoting in the way he did and saying everything else sucks, did kinda rub on me, so I just ignored it altogether, but I would be glad if you could somehow teach this guy some manners, because he lacks them big-time.

    I hope I did not offend you in any way, was trying to explain myself further, thanks for your feedback though o/
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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