The Future Of The Hive

[Panda]

Whats up,
So I've been thinking alot about the hive and the future of it. There are alot of talented people in here that make really amazing resources. But, the thing i was thinking about is how warcraft 3, frozen throne in general.. there isn't a big community anymore like there was in lets say.. 2003 when the game came out. Plus the game itself is really old and could use a bunch of updates people have gave it up and played either (Starcraft 3) or (Diablo 3) since those games are quite HD and updated a bunch and new.. Not, saying there isn't a community on warcraft 3 but, im just saying that it seems like it decreased alo't from the past years. What im getting at with the hive is, that sometimes i wonderful if our hard work with our resources that we produce actually gets used.. I know people download them but, who knows if they actually use it? I know there wont be a warcraft 4 obviously, which it would be nice considering everything is updated and the whole game is new because frozen throne is quite old obviously.. which i love old games.. but sometimes change is for the better. Also, for the future of the hive.. lets say the warcraft 3 community dies dramatically and no one is making maps and there is barley anyone online.. our resources we make.. Skins.. Models..Icons.. wont be used.. "As Much" so lets say there is a new game (Not Warcraft 3, Just a brand new game) coming out that's like DotA or something of that nature.. and they need icons? or ideas for new heroes (Models) And they visit this site for ideas.. And, lets say they find a bunch that they need or find a person that could design models or whatever for that particular game itself. If you know what i am talking about.. I am just brainstorming ideas for the future of the hive.. i am a life long member and i don't wanna let the hive die let alone the community die with it


If you have any ideas for the future of the hive please comment!

I know we are updating the hive soon.. but, i just needed to get this out.

 

[SA Dashie]

Uhh people all around the Wc3 community have joined for their own reasons and stayed for their own reasons.
But I believe that these people have stayed because of how convenient and easy it is to build on something easy with Wc3 and the community that was build on this game all those years ago.

Sc2 didn't provide the same feel that the bulk of the community could enjoy like Wc3 can still provide even today. I can't imagine Blizzard or any other company anytime soon that will be able to make a game that could bring the feel that Wc3 did.

Also, hype for Hive 2!

 

[Ardenian]

If you have any ideas for the future of the hive please comment!

Well, something that came along my mind a few weeks ago: What would a map be like if 'all' talented and superior map-creator would create one map/one campaign ? I mean, imagine the potential of such map! Because all these creator ( including you) could fully customize the whole content and in some way, create a new game, with completely new races or gameplay. Not a map like Gaia or Iceborn, or to say, similar to their concept of creating a map, but a map/campaign/whatever that includes fully customized content! I think one call a something like this a Mod, but I am not sure whether this is what I wanted to express.
I believe that Hive has the potential to create something new, something unseen. I mean, most of you guys are such experienced in different topics, I am absolutely sure you also could create 'a map' together!

 

[rulerofiron99]

Well, something that came along my mind a few weeks ago: What would a map be like if 'all' talented and superior map-creator would create one map/one campaign ? I mean, imagine the potential of such map! Because all these creator ( including you) could fully customize the whole content and in some way, create a new game, with completely new races or gameplay. Not a map like Gaia or Iceborn, or to say, similar to their concept of creating a map, but a map/campaign/whatever that includes fully customized content! I think one call a something like this a Mod, but I am not sure whether this is what I wanted to express.
I believe that Hive has the potential to create something new, something unseen. I mean, most of you guys are such experienced in different topics, I am absolutely sure you also could create 'a map' together!

Too many chefs.

Most mappers around here have plenty of ideas, but the reason so few projects ever get finished is because there's a lot of art and code work to be done, and very few coders and artists.

If everyone on the hive got together to make one map/mod, a full half of everyone "working" on it would be able to offer nothing more than than their ideas, which would come into conflict with each other since everyone will have a different vision for the map.

For a truly OMFGAWESOME project, you want 1 lead designer with 3-5 design advisers ("idea guys"), with 5-10 artists and 3-5 skilled coders that are able and willing to pump hundreds of hours into it.

 

[Kino]

Well, something that came along my mind a few weeks ago: What would a map be like if 'all' talented and superior map-creator would create one map/one campaign ?

It has been attempted countless times and succeeded in exactly 0.

 

[chobibo]

More than one pro coders could be a potential problem, I think. They'd probably enjoy debating about algorithm and other optimizations more than doing actual coding lol.

 

[Tank-Commander]

I think you can pull off multiple "pro coders" so long as they stick to their respective pieces of work, otherwise yeah you'll potentially get arguments on optimisation/coding method/etc and the more complicated the systems needed for a map, the more likely these will occur regardless of work being seperated since the need for optimisation increases. Granted it'd be a bit odd for half of a map to be coded in (v)JASS and the other half in GUI. The notion of having a small team of experts is definitely better than a mass of people - as stated earlier "too many chefs".

On the matter of why some have stuck around, I know in my case it's because no othergames offer the same ease of creation. In particular: Dummy.mdl is extremely useful along with the simple method of attaching effects to it, and the clean "space" to get to work in when in the editor without having to worry about other things. Icould probably move on to working with Galaxy Script with Starcraft II but the editor simply isn't friendl, particularly when it comes to building dummy abilities - it gives me that "patchy work" sort of feel where you hope what you do has worked, but you have absolutely no idea what's going on

 

[Ardenian]

Too many chefs.
Most mappers around here have plenty of ideas, but the reason so few projects ever get finished is because there's a lot of art and code work to be done, and very few coders and artists.
For a truly OMFGAWESOME project, you want 1 lead designer with 3-5 design advisers ("idea guys"), with 5-10 artists and 3-5 skilled coders that are able and willing to pump hundreds of hours into it.

It has been attempted countless times and succeeded in exactly 0.

More than one pro coders could be a potential problem, I think. They'd probably enjoy debating about algorithm and other optimizations more than doing actual coding lol.

I think you can pull off multiple "pro coders" so long as they stick to their respective pieces of work, otherwise yeah you'll potentially get arguments on optimisation/coding method/etc and the more complicated the systems needed for a map, the more likely these will occur regardless of work being seperated since the need for optimisation increases. Granted it'd be a bit odd for half of a map to be coded in (v)JASS and the other half in GUI. The notion of having a small team of experts is definitely better than a mass of people - as stated earlier "too many chefs".

( I am really sorry if I short my answer, but for some reason 'Undo' deleted my big answer without the opportunity to re-create it with 'Redo'...)

I get your points and I probably exaggerated in my post saying 'all experienced Hivers', but I do believe that it should be possible for Hive to create a map/campaign that shows the true glory of Hive. I don't say there are no maps that are on a high-standard, of course there is Gaia, Iceborn, Chosen Ones and some more ( or not ?), but WE gives you such a great opportunity to re-create gameplay in your own ideas and notions. Of course you have to agree on a theme and genre first, but after developing an idea Hive would be able to create a map beyond Wc3, creating a map that is more than just simple gameplay. I mean, look at your systems, you create spells, models, skins, icons, tools, ...
The Hive Elite is able to create gameplay and content that is beyond wc3, if you work together, new races would be easy, great campaigns would arise, stories developing. You don't even have to share your own ideas, you could also take a book or movie and re-create it as game.
I dare to say, saying that you cannot agree on a theme or debating over and over is just a little reason not to represent the glory and wisdom of Hive.

Final Point, I would suggest that the Elite of Hive creates a project that shows your full potential, that sails close to your border of skills and shows the clarity, wisdom and abilities of Hive!

 

[Kazeon]

Final Point, I would suggest that the Elite of Hive creates a project that shows your full potential, that sails close to your border of skills and shows the clarity, wisdom and abilities of Hive!

No shit.

______________

Unfortunately, there will never exists a map "beyond wc3" as long as this one hasn't been finished. c:

 

[Chaosy]

The same thought has crossed my mind more than once. While warcraft isn't dead, I think a lot of resources deserve more attention so to speak.

There are stuff that's rated 5/5 and only got a few thousand downloads. By looks at such numbers it indeed feels like the site is dying. That's not true of course, but many of our active members are just here for social purposes and don't really play/mod anymore.

The only way is to support more games being modded. But just supporting different games isn't enough, even if we technically support dota 2 modding, how many members here on the hive are active in that section? the answer is: very few.

You'd have to come up with some clever design so you can support many different mod-able games.

 

[Panda]

The same thought has crossed my mind more than once. While warcraft isn't dead, I think a lot of resources deserve more attention so to speak.

There are stuff that's rated 5/5 and only got a few thousand downloads. By looks at such numbers it indeed feels like the site is dying. That's not true of course, but many of our active members are just here for social purposes and don't really play/mod anymore.

The only way is to support more games being modded. But just supporting different games isn't enough, even if we technically support dota 2 modding, how many members here on the hive are active in that section? the answer is: very few.

You'd have to come up with some clever design so you can support many different mod-able games.

I agree, i know warcraft still has an active community which is nice to know and i agree with the dota 2 modding.. i don't believe "many" people will do it but a lot will at least try it out in some cases.

But, furthermore this whole idea was just in my head at the time and i just wanted to talk about it is all.

 

[bajaist]

Well, since this discussion is, slightly, going towards crazy ideas, here's another one, how about instead of gathering to create a map, all those great modders gather to create a new Editor, one based on a more powerful engine and molded by the needs of modders. Maybe an open source project.

 

[Gilles]

Been there, tried that.

Would be neat if someone did the impossible though.

 

[chobibo]

Well, since this discussion is, slightly, going towards crazy ideas, here's another one, how about instead of gathering to create a map, all those great modders gather to create a new Editor, one based on a more powerful engine and molded by the needs of modders. Maybe an open source project.

I'd love to see something like this too. Something like OpenMW but for wc3.

 

[Lambdadelta]

Hmmmm. Do people make stuff for others to use or just because they had a cool idea and wanted to perfect or share it?

I dunno. I think THW should die out naturally over the next few years/decade. Don't think trying to expand into Dota 2/SC/other modding should happen.

#ripwc3

 

[Tauer]

Warcraft 3 might be getting ancient, but I don't think the Hive is dying any time soon. It will only die when people let it die.

Besides, I'm pretty sure we WILL get a Warcraft 4 at some point. It might not be until 2020+ but I'm sure we will get it. And when it does come out, I'm sure people will gather here to make custom resources for it since the Hive is pretty much the Hub for WC resources.
Back in 2010 WC3 was already getting pretty old, but here we are 5 years later and we still have several resources released every day. I can't see why it wouldn't last another 5+ years.

 

[Kazeon]

The real potent threat to Hiveworkshop is not just another better "game engine". In fact, the better that engine is, the harder for us to learn it. Just like Sc2 WE, it's a "limit-less" game engine, but why the modding community is near-dead whereas it's a perfect tool? It's because almost everything's hard to do/learn, especially the modeling sector.

For me, Warcraft III modding is a perfect place to start learning about game making. Includes coding, modeling, texturing, etc. They are "easy" to learn. And they are all available here on Hiveworkshop, not to mention tons of tutorials and a friendly social environment. That's why I feel lucky to find this site. The first time I fell in love to Wc3 WE, that's when I became one of luckiest people in the w. Gee, what should I do if not? Learning game making in c++? No way, it's way too hard for a normal kid, I was about 15 yo and I have published my first game (map). How? I'm not genius, that's because Wc3, it is perfect for noobs. Nobody can jump into a pro at once, they need progress, from easy > intermediate > pro.

I can make bunch of paragraphs if I want to describe how perfect is this modding community. But let's go back to my main point: The real potent threat to Hiveworkshop is not just another better "game engine". What I found is that less people are interested in game making today. When I tried to promote about how fun is it to make a game, most people responded negatively. They were like "Uh, erm... Okay, let's see if you are lucky and I will try to start learning about game making." Yup, less people are interested in this matter nowadays.

 

[Ardenian]

Besides, I'm pretty sure we WILL get a Warcraft 4 at some point. It might not be until 2020+ but I'm sure we will get it. And when it does come out, I'm sure people will gather here to make custom resources for it since the Hive is pretty much the Hub for WC resources.
Back in 2010 WC3 was.

I doubt that Blizzard will create a Warcraft 4 due to the fact that the majority of players isn't interested in the good, old strategy games anymore. I mean, compare Warcraft to newer maps like Civilization, Anno, Age of Empires or also Sc2! Many players don't like Blizzards new concept to make Sc2 harder/impossible for newbies. All these games are dead/dying because most players aren't interested in playing these games anymore. Of course, for us a Warcraft 4 would be great, but I don't think that Blizzard will decide to go that step.

But couldn't this be a project for Hive ? Creating a wc4 with the opportunities of WE ? But just regarding comments in this thread I doubt this is going to happen.

 

[Vinz]

Dota 2

 

[GhostWolf]

Great, this thread. Again.

You can live in a technology bubble as much as you like, but in reality, anything that will be candidate for "Warcraft 4" (and no, Blizzard will never make that, for obvious logical reasons), will never be as easy to use as Warcraft 3.
Sorry, people, 13 years passed, and what you consider a "good" model/texture, is pretty much nonsense in any game today (not to mention the lack of standards in the first place, but that's a whole other subject).

Can you make models with proper topology (and that have more than 200 polygons...)? good unwraps (proper pixel density, proper seams)? skinned animations (you know, where your mesh is actually attached)? animation graphs? high poly versions of your models, with millions of polygons, in order to bake a normal map? decent diffuse, specular, gloss, and other textures?

These aren't "oh my god, why did they make SC2 so hard to use", but rather things you need in this time and age (or really, pretty much since 2006 or so).

No, we don't have tools yet that allow you to tell your computer to generate a good model, and it does so (unless you have a 3D scanner).

But, you know, keep living in your bubble and think that someone will make a "new better engine" that will require you to just throw some extremely low quality resources at it, without the necessity to actually learn properly how to make them, and it will all end up being OK. It's a good dream.

 

[Chaosy]

Tbh wc3 doesn't need a better engine. In my opinion there are one/two things that wc3 lacks.

1. graphics
2. we're not able to modify everything. Aka not open source. (this is only beneficial for moders obviously.)

 

[Vinz]

#2 is pretty much in need of a better engine

 

[chobibo]

So is #1 lol.

 

[Vinz]

And #1 is tied to #2 because the UI positions are hardcoded.

 

[Kazeon]

1. graphics

You need graphic? Go to Sc2 lol.

 

[Chaosy]

I don't need it but it gives the game a bad image. And therefore not as many will buy it, even less mod it unless they've played it.

 

[Kino]

These aren't "oh my god, why did they make SC2 so hard to use", but rather things you need in this time and age (or really, pretty much since 2006 or so).

Basically this.
As time goes on, the amount of manpower per game required to make it look "up to date" increases.
There are reasons why specialised art roles exist in the commercial side of development.

It's not a WC3 to SC2 translation issue.
Its just not technologically feasible IMO to have the kind of modding scene that existed in wc3 in any game.

For most of my projects, everything except public code resources and texture art was done solo. Even if I was the most talented person in the universe, being able to fill so many roles as 1 person in any other engine or game modding tool just isn't feasible.

But couldn't this be a project for Hive ? Creating a wc4 with the opportunities of WE ? But just regarding comments in this thread I doubt this is going to happen.

Even if you were to ignore the technical side of things, I honestly believe the conditions that originally created the wc3 modding scene no longer exist.

There are games everywhere, cheap and sometimes even free.
If the conditions are right, you can buy a game (a good one even) for the price of a train ticket.
The whole draw of the mod arcade being an "all in one" platform for creative game types seems really irrelevant now.

I also believe that wc3 modding only became the way it was, because initially, nobody gave any damns about broad success and or production values.
For a long time, most maps didn't use custom models, let alone being expected and obligated to use them.
Also, overtime Ive noticed that maps tended to emulate commercial games more and more, as opposed to being simply a map; a mod one could play as an extension of wc3.
All just a personal anecdote of course.

As for why WC3 was successful, Ill say that's it's not because of broadly defined "easyness" specifically. But ease of prototyping and layering of complexity.

All that said, I don't understand the whole "omg X game is dead" camp.
A game will have it's time, I don't see why there is a need to canonize a game as dead or whatever.
When it dies, it dies.
No need to rush.

Every "wc3 is dying" claim has it's own internal logic, and isn't technically wrong from it's own perspective.
When WoW was released, the game was supposed to die, since "WoW = next Warcraft instalment"
Sounds silly in retrospective, but it did "kind of" make sense back then.

 

[Deathcom3s]

Great, this thread. Again.

You can live in a technology bubble as much as you like, but in reality, anything that will be candidate for "Warcraft 4" (and no, Blizzard will never make that, for obvious logical reasons), will never be as easy to use as Warcraft 3.
Sorry, people, 13 years passed, and what you consider a "good" model/texture, is pretty much nonsense in any game today (not to mention the lack of standards in the first place, but that's a whole other subject).

Can you make models with proper topology (and that have more than 200 polygons...)? good unwraps (proper pixel density, proper seams)? skinned animations (you know, where your mesh is actually attached)? animation graphs? high poly versions of your models, with millions of polygons, in order to bake a normal map? decent diffuse, specular, gloss, and other textures?

These aren't "oh my god, why did they make SC2 so hard to use", but rather things you need in this time and age (or really, pretty much since 2006 or so).

No, we don't have tools yet that allow you to tell your computer to generate a good model, and it does so (unless you have a 3D scanner).

But, you know, keep living in your bubble and think that someone will make a "new better engine" that will require you to just throw some extremely low quality resources at it, without the necessity to actually learn properly how to make them, and it will all end up being OK. It's a good dream.

GhostWolf nailed it on the head here guys. The simple fact of the matter is, technology has moved on, and it is simply more and more difficult to do everything that he has mentioned. When Wc3 was released, normal maps were just barely starting to catch on. The idea that we would be rendering millions upon millions of polygons with high-resolution textures and all sorts of fancy shmancy shaders in realtime was insane.

Games like the TES series show that having a modern, thriving modding scene isn't impossible, but it takes the right game with the right environment at the right time to create that. Warcraft 3 was released at the right time, with the right features, and modding caught fire.

Now, that being said, we're looking at Dota 2 as a potential platform. We're going to be doing some things to get some activity in that area.

Right now, there isn't much activity there, we are well aware of that. The Hive didn't start out with 5,000 active users. It probably started with a handful of active, dedicated users, maybe 30 or so. You always start small, very rarely do you run into a situation where you have such a large, untapped market with limitless potential. You have to establish a strong foundation, and build upon that foundation. That takes time and effort. Consistent, constant effort.

Now, is Dota 2 the silver bullet, the cure, the end-all, be-all? Only time will tell. It may fail, every venture has the possibility of failing, but you never know until you try. We're going to try, and if it fails, then that's the end of it. But, we're not going to simply let the possibility of failure keep us from trying. That's useless, and pointless.

I believe in Dota 2 and it's potential. It is built upon an engine that has a strong history of modding. A very strong history. It has a huge install base, and better yet, it's completely free. Anyone can download and install the full version of Dota 2, and have complete access to every mod available for it. Is it more complicated than Warcraft 3? Yes, but as GhostWolf stated earlier, that complexity comes as a result of improved technology.

However, for those of you interested in moving into a career related to Game Development, you can only benefit by working with a toolset such as that. It exposes you to a more mature, professional set of tools that are similar to what you will work with in a professional game development environment.

So there ya go, there's my 2 cents.

 

[WhiteFang]

What im getting at with the hive is, that sometimes i wonderful if our hard work with our resources that we produce actually gets used.. I know people download them but, who knows if they actually use it?

Why would they download them then?

i am a life long member and i don't wanna let the hive die let alone the community die with it

I'm with you on this

 

[Vinz]

They might actually use it, but who knows if their project will ever be completed or will see the light of day?

 

[chobibo]

Why would they download them then?

I forgot who told me but I remember he said he wants to backup the models section and have local access to it lol.

 

[Vinz]

neo_sluf, because he doesn't have internet all the time.

 

[Hantoo]

Why would they download them then?


I'm with you on this

how bout collecting models, like what I used to be? XD I download lots of model and I don't even make maps xd

 

[Heinvers]

Can you please NOT derail the topic thread?

It's getting annoying after reading it.

 

[Panda]

Can you please NOT derail the topic thread?

It's getting annoying after reading it.

Thank you.. i didn't open a thread for everyone to complain..If you have something mean so say, either say it politely or don't say it at all simple as that.

 

[Deathcom3s]

No worries, I'll step in if they keep de-railing it.

 

[Panda]

No worries, I'll step in if they keep de-railing it.

If you can just delete the thread or close it I'm done with it.

 

[Ralle]

A thread is not for the sole purpose of the creator's. While it must stay on topic, people can still continue the subject without the creator.

 

[eubz]

I am so happy that the endurance is still here despite six guns and gta can now be played in mobile phones and can be carried anywhere you wanna go. There is still future here if though we're all old still posses the endurance to embrace blizzard's long and lasting game.

 

[CNiper]

This conversation seems to be going on in every WCIII harbour.

I think the community around WCIII will always live on. There are still quite a few maps coming out steadily upon release - maps that use resources hosted on TheHive. WCIII is still incredibly fun to play.

 

[Kam]

I came here when I needed answers for what was at the time a poorly thought out mess of custom materials I called my project. I found a community ready to assist. 11 years later I continue working on it because I find it relaxing, I am well versed in the editor so I can make my ideas come to life, and there is good new content every day.

I find all these discussions tedious. There are numerous examples of communities around older games that thrive today: Tribes 2, Total Annihilation, Halo 2, Sins of the Solar Empire, Age of Empires II, on and on... The reality is that unless there is a catastrophe this place is here to stay.

 

[Ralle]

[...] The reality is that unless there is a catastrophe this place is here to stay.

Yep.

 

[Heinvers]

I came here when I needed answers for what was at the time a poorly thought out mess of custom materials I called my project. I found a community ready to assist. 11 years later I continue working on it because I find it relaxing, I am well versed in the editor so I can make my ideas come to life, and there is good new content every day.

I find all these discussions tedious. There are numerous examples of communities around older games that thrive today: Tribes 2, Total Annihilation, Halo 2, Sins of the Solar Empire, Age of Empires II, on and on... The reality is that unless there is a catastrophe this place is here to stay.

Thanks

You're officially my favorite person of the week. True words.

 

[GhostThruster]

I came here when I needed answers for what was at the time a poorly thought out mess of custom materials I called my project. I found a community ready to assist. 11 years later I continue working on it because I find it relaxing, I am well versed in the editor so I can make my ideas come to life, and there is good new content every day.

I find all these discussions tedious. There are numerous examples of communities around older games that thrive today: Tribes 2, Total Annihilation, Halo 2, Sins of the Solar Empire, Age of Empires II, on and on... The reality is that unless there is a catastrophe this place is here to stay.

can't verify the others, but halo (pick any) is basically dead (also halo 2 was released after wc3)

 

[A Void]

The future of the Hive is to survive and grow. So far there still remains competition such as Chaosrealm, personally the more diversity the community get's the more spread out and smaller it will be. Diversity doesn't unite the community and that is a big problem with Warcraft III modding.

The more other communities there are, the more people will get distracted.

So to say, Hive is the oldest. It should be the one and only modding community Warcraft III has to offer, because of technical details of the game. As they say, Warcraft III is dying...

#My Opinion.