Techtree Contest #7 Discussion

[Wazzz]

unfortunately, you say you understand what i'm saying, and your suggestions continue to suggest that you do not

and then you call me stupid

try again

 

[kari0003]

and then you call me stupid

Say that again!

Alright!
-Lets make a Hero oriented techtree!
-Lets make a Mass unit oriented techtree! (Swarm)
-Lets make a Tier3 unit oriented techtree! (Possibly SuperUnit)
-Lets make a Summon oriented techtree
-Lets make a defensive techtree!
-Lets make a build/builder/structure oriented techtree!
-Lets make a not base oriented race! (the thorn away nomad race idea)
-Lets make a teammate supporting techtree.
-Lets make a techtree where spellcasters get the most weight!

Good enough?

 

[Wazzz]

-making things more hero oriented seems counter productive, as heroes are very central in warcraft 3 as it is. if this were for another gameplay style that was more versatile, it could fit in well.
- swarm
- superunit
- could work, might be interesting to see summons implemented in unique fashions where they influence the techtree more than the summons of the existing race do
- not too sure about a defensive techtree theme, might be able to work
- centering your techtree around the builder and the structures it produces could have interesting effects, especially with people interpreting this differently to one another
- might possibly work, there are many different ways to do a nomad race after all
- not too good as a theme, especially considering testing may require two players instead of just one against the ai, but also it seems silly
- a magic-orientated theme could have potential

perhaps we have enough for a poll?

 

[Kingz]

You guys should just ignore all Wazzz posts and go directly to Pharaoh_ with your ideas, since it's pointless to argue with him when it's obviously he is stubborn as hell and thinks he is the one deciding the next techtree contest.

And for you Wazzz, trash talk me ONE MORE TIME and i am going straight to the administrators/moderators to see you get an infraction. Trust me when i say, they will gladly hand it out to you.

This is a public forum, behave as such.

 

[GhostThruster]

yes, i'm in no position, other than pharaoh_ allowed me to be in this position as i took the initiative to talk to him before i even started this thread

actually, iirc, me creating this thread was pharaoh_'s suggestion, as i was discussing with him about the possibility of organising a theme for next contest

besides which, if i'm not in any position to discuss themes in this nature, neither are any of you, except i have pharaoh_'s permission to do this

now, considering this is my thread, it is my discussion, and therefore i am able to lay down what we are discussing and how we're discussing it. if you don't like it, create your own thread, but i suggest talking to pharaoh_ first.

pharaoh let you make this thread. I don't believe he wanted you to call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot. Now I see you intended for us to discuss about your type of theme, but it's not about what you want to discuss. I want to discuss the stupidity of your theme, and that we should stick to the old aesthetical themes. Furthermore, feel free to open up threads and discussions. But you should not be the one who DECIDES THE THEMES.

because people like 'cool systems' and 'awesome imports'

that was the reason behind removing imports for a theme, to see people actually create something without hiding behind lots of imports to make their races look 'pretty'. it's also unfair when people can skin or model and they just do that for their race and people pay more attention to those submissions.

Wow all I'm getting from this is 'lets make shitty themes so less people join/vote'. Lol I'm getting the idea you only suggested 'no imports' to get rid of 67chrome >.<


Stop forcing your type of themes onto people you derp. People can discuss whatever themes they want. That includes you and kari discussing your type of themes. It includes me discussing with you how horrible your type of themes is. You can disagree, you cannot simply say 'nope theme is bad because i dislike aesthetic themes'.

EDIT: Also wazzz I am in no affiliation with kari, astaroth, jokemaster, and kingz. All I want is for you to realise that themes which set constraints on gameplay are bad.

 

[JokeMaster]

Ok so far going through this thread there are such ideas :

By Ghost

Games- A race basing on a non video game. (sports/ chess / cards etc)

Space - Make a Sci-Fi race

Enviroment - Races fitting a specifical enviroment theme (water desert ice sand forest etc.) such as amazons , various tribes, mongols.

Race with history[not story] a race evolving around a special history with various units upgrade types.

Different use - your race uses resurouces in a different way than standard example for evolving (egg-bird-bit of magic- phoenix/thunderbird [example])

Astaroth's suggestion

World Mythology Races: each contestant must choose a mythology from the classic literature (Egyptian, Nordic, Greek, Mesoamerican, etc.) and build a custom balanced race based on it.

Old contest not used themes

-A medival theme
-Warcraft fractions and organizations ( Kul'Tiras Kirin Tor Argent Dawn etc.)
- Twisted races ( fpor example humans made into possesed by demons, undead as peace bringers etc.)
- Creep Race

Ignore that Wazzz

PLEASE IGNORE WAZZZ

Thank you.

 

[Wazzz]

@Jokemaster: Kari made clear some good theme ideas which you are disregarding, probably because they're themes well suited to the nature of the contest

@GhostThruster: Your suggestions for themes are bad because rather than fixing the problem of having unsuitable themes (which make every contest the same), you are making things worse.

@Kingz: Don't dish out what you can't handle, and don't make threats you can't back up. You may not have been around as much as I have (join dates disregarded), but you are skating on thin ice maboi. Considering you openly insult me and then get offended when i point it out, your chronic hypocrisy is amusing. especially considering you tell everyone to disregard what i'm saying, on my own thread. amusing.

also take note that i did not call you people idiots, rather you called me an idiot. get your facts straight, kthx

Update: Poll is up, take your pick

Sidenote: I observe the people calling me stubborn are those who are unwilling to change their points of views, or embrace any others. I have embraced your point of views via participating in previous contests, so it would be you who are stubborn. Enjoy your weekly dose of logic.

 

[JokeMaster]

Where is the option none from above?
And those themes are kinda idiotic :
-the super unit call it a knight a gryphon rider) those 2 units can take down 3-7 units before they die
-swarm well i can mass ghuls that will be a swarm
- summoned unit hmm water elemental? Loctus swarm? spirit wolfs? ents?
-defensive, tower??
- Central building?? Town hall? Great hall??
- Nomad? I made an orc nomad model???
-Spell caster ?? Shaman, priest, druid, necromancer??

Those are not themes tohe are types of units...

Edit: Your themes are good for an artistic competition concept art, modeling or skinnig.
You say we misunderstand you but you self don't know what means a race making theme. Sorry kid.
Race/Tech tree making competitions are about example p[irates ( your race has to be naval with a feew setlements but a lot of water units)
Or just naval your race has to be connected to water. I also got the idea of an anti air race which has to counter air units but is prohibited to have self flying units). Those are a race competition themes , not yours.

 

[Wazzz]

that's... one of the stupidest things so far, and i've been up to date with kingz' posts (not trash talking ya kingz, you just love to contradict whatever you say immediately after saying it)

i find it interesting that it's actually you who doesn't know anything about a 'race making theme'. Tell me, jokemaster, how many techtree contests have you participated in so far? and by participated, i mean submitted an entry?

and you tell me i don't know my stuff when i've been in all the ones since #3. 'Sorry kid', you just don't have what it takes to argue with me on this topic. At least Ghostthruster has some background to his points.

 

[JokeMaster]

Good joke and i thought i am the master here.Well i wanted to start in contest number 3 but was banned at the time i submitted an entry for contest 4 i was writing exams in the time of 5 and 6 here. I took part in a 2 races competitions on arcane.pl ( a local wc3 moding site) and started 1 on xgm but never finished ( was the time when 5 and 6 were on hive).

So check your brain i think it hurts.

Well i think i know what to say guys im opening a new topic with correct themes.

 

[Skycraft]

You guys seem to misunderstand what Wazzz is trying to get across - contests like these aren't for trying something simple, they are trying for something new and challenging to see how people adapt to it. The themes you are picking are too simple, and you aren't thinking enough outside the box.

Remember that in a contest, everything is limited by your imagination as long as it remains within the theme. This is why Wazzz is throwing these crazy ideas - he wants you to be challenged and have fun with idea of trying something new.

If we chose something generic for the next contest it wouldn't be very interesting at all.

 

[Wazzz]

yes yes jokemaster, i'm sure you have plenty of unfounded experience from various websites. i'm not at all insinuating you can't back it up, i'm just implying that you still have no idea what you're on about.

as for your questions of the selected themes, hopefully this will clear things up for you

as skycraft said, your themes are too simple and don't challenge anything. they are not suited to a contest of this style, and hopefully one day you will realise how wrong you are, jokemaster. until then, get out of my thread.

 

[JokeMaster]

There is no way you can get me out. So get used to it.

 

[Wazzz]

oh good more derailing, and here's you saying that you're in the right.

well it's your call, if you want to be immature about everything go right ahead, i'll just continue with the poll, get some results, show pharaoh_, see what he thinks, proceed with techtree contest 7. if the results for the last one ever get done :V

which does call to question, why are people in such a rush for a new contest when the old one's not even complete?

 

[kari0003]

Okay We have both types of ideas in poll now, here and here.
Lets vote, and then the moderators will decide if its a draw or something.?

Both polls are equal.

 

[Wazzz]

actually, mine is the original and has a better selection than the inferior rip off, but if you /personally/ believe they are equal, don't present it as fact, please

 

[-Kobas-]

Central Builder/Structure it is.

 

[Latecat]

-the super unit call it a knight a gryphon rider) those 2 units can take down 3-7 units before they die
-swarm well i can mass ghuls that will be a swarm
- summoned unit hmm water elemental? Loctus swarm? spirit wolfs? ents?
-defensive, tower??
- Central building?? Town hall? Great hall??
- Nomad? I made an orc nomad model???
-Spell caster ?? Shaman, priest, druid, necromancer??

Super unit: Because I lack any direct counter-arguments for that atm (probably will figure out something one day), im just going to give an example instead:
Lets take this random race. All of its units are weak, unless this one specific unit is with them, which could give them dmg, armor, mana regen, etc, while being weak itself. Basically, a leader unit. Of course, the unit would have to be limited in some other way, e.g high food cost, build limit (5?), etc. While it is not a hero, it is crucial for the race, and should be protected at all costs, in a way someone will have to figure out on their own.

Okay, that is limiting for people with lack of imagination/are too busy quite a lot, but that is just one way to make the race, my vision of it.

Swarm: ...I'll pass on this one.

Summoned unit: I was going to write a big argument here but I ran into a dead end with it. While the idea is actually promising, it is rather hard to come up with a decent idea for it that is still balanced, and thus, it isn't too good. While I don't agree with Jokemaster's thing about it, I still dont like it.

Defensive: Basically, slow, strong guys - at least thats what I got from it on the first glance. So im once again going to pass.

Central builder: First one that comes to mind is a combination of Zerg larvae and Zerg Drone - a builder that both builds things and evolves into other units. NEXT!

Central Building: Zerg Hatchery. Provides creep for other zerg buildings, spawns the larvae, is a resource deposit point, etc. NEXT!

Nomads: Basically, a race which is good with units but weak with buildings. Also, most - if not all - buildings are moveable, like caravans.
Just got an explanation for that, sorry :l

And im not even going to go into spellcasters, would get too complicated.


I voted for central builder/building still tho, even though nomads sound a little better now.

PS: sorry if it sounds a little half-arsed, i noticed how little time i have after i wrote the super unit part.

 

[Wazzz]

summoned unit may have balance issues, but the key idea is to try and make it balanced

perhaps it would be a very challenging idea, but i do believe that you could make the summons permanent and still call it true to the theme, perhaps, although it's difficult to say

or maybe you could have half your units permanent, and have each of them use their own summon, which, in turn, would present different roles for your race in terms of units, and even though they are temporary, they would be free units :3

i do agree that it would be difficult to balance though :3

if any of you want any examples, i have put some on the first post of this thread :3

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

Super unit: Because I lack any direct counter-arguments for that atm (probably will figure out something one day), im just going to give an example instead:
Lets take this random race. All of its units are weak, unless this one specific unit is with them, which could give them dmg, armor, mana regen, etc, while being weak itself. Basically, a leader unit. Of course, the unit would have to be limited in some other way, e.g high food cost, build limit (5?), etc. While it is not a hero, it is crucial for the race, and should be protected at all costs, in a way someone will have to figure out on their own.

The tyranids. all of its basic units are weak as water. if they have a commanding unit within a range, a much stronger and more resilient and more expensive unit, the weak units gets a significant boost in power and abilities.

-the super unit call it a knight a gryphon rider) those 2 units can take down 3-7 units before they die
-swarm well i can mass ghuls that will be a swarm
- summoned unit hmm water elemental? Loctus swarm? spirit wolfs? ents?
-defensive, tower??
- Central building?? Town hall? Great hall??
- Nomad? I made an orc nomad model???
-Spell caster ?? Shaman, priest, druid, necromancer??

what you are completely missing out on is that these are the THEME of the race. not a component. let me make it easier for you by listing some points.

• having a unit that might possibly be a bit more stronger than other units does not make your game "super unit" themed
  
  A more correct preresentation will be if your WHOLE race costs more than the average race but were much much stronger. a relevant example would be Company of heroes. You have the two factions. the allies and the nazis. in this game, the nazis get lesser number of units but all their stats in general are higher as well as being better armed. their tanks are more expensive but are more heavily armoured and hits harder. it is not to an extent to call them a super race (burn. hitler) but they are super in a sense.​
• having a mass-able unit does not make your race swarm-themed.
  
  if your whole race depended on the ability to mass cheap quick units, for example, if you played starcraft with nothing but zerglings and the victory was dependent on your management and support of those zerglings, then it would be swarm-themed. if the CORE of your gameplay depended on the ability to swarm then it would be swarm themed. footmen frenzy is a good example of what i mean​
• being able to summon on or two units does not mean your race is summon-themed.
  
  if you had no base and the only way to create units was to use up mana and summon them, then your race would be summon themed.​
• having one defensive unit does not mean your race is defence-orientated
  
  if many of your units had stationary abilities and buffs, where slow but relentless progression was the key of your army, then the race will be defence themed​
• having A central building does not mean the game's theme is "central building"
  
  for example, in dawn of war, the necron race has only 1 building that can produce units. all other races in that game have multiple production buildings, including the one central building.
  
  necrons stand out in that, this central building is THE single most important object of that race as well as being the most powerful in terms of abilities. all other buildings are mere support buildings. This same building later on during the game also becomes the most powerful unit available to that race. no other races in that game acts this way. There fore, the necrons have a "central building" theme​
• having one unit that roams around does not make your race nomad themed
  
  if your race depended on being able to move around from one place to another, if your race made itself vulnerable if they had a set base, then your race will be nomad themed​
• having one spell caster unit does not make your race spell caster themed.
  
  if your whole race or most of them were spell casters, then your race will be spell caster themed​

the assumption or even a declaration that these themes are more suited for the, or are solely for artistic point of view has got to be the dumbest, or to be more precise, the most shortsighted thing ever.

 

[Wazzz]

tbh i don't even see how they're remotely related to an art contest

but i'm fairly sure you could have a pirate theme for an art contest, for example, or an aquatic theme, or a medieval theme, or a fractions and algebra theme

i like that convenient typo they continue using, as it displays they are the lowest common denominators

anywho, pyramidhe@d is pretty damn good at explaining things, you guys should listen to him if you're too busy ignoring me on my own thread (smmmmmmart idea)

anyway so far nomad seems to be the most popular, but it's pretty close with swarm coming in second atm, i would like to see how people fair within these themes :3

 

[JokeMaster]

Moderator toady , new tactics interesting.

 

[Wazzz]

i don't think there's a user named toady on the forums, least of all one of moderator status

perhaps you are not familiar with having the majority against you? only happens in smarter communities, i'm afraid

 

[JokeMaster]

Sorry i don't have a shovel to dig me down to your level, nah i need an excavator.

 

[Wazzz]

that post is both spammy and problematic, please cease and decist unless you want to contribute something useful to this thread

i may have to inform the moderators/admins of your bad behaviour

i refuse to lower myself to your level because i have a bad back

 

[JokeMaster]

You need a ladder/elvator to get to my level. I dont think you speak fluently 5 languages, don't you?

Aura/buff dependent race. The main builging could have a healing aura and the units themslef would loose health slowly, the aura would keep them alive, if they would leave the aura range they would loose health and die.

 

[Toady]

Moderator toady , new tactics interesting.

I am not a moderator thank you very much although I would like to be a moderator so I can get rid of polish Scandavians like you.

p.s. I have herpes...so now yo mumma does to.

 

[Skycraft]

JokeMaster.. choose something from the list, make productive posts, or fuck off. Stop going on about this crap.

 

[JokeMaster]

... The fuck does that mean ...
And first of all i'm form Belarus i only live in poland... What does it have to the topic?
Skycraft... you don't help anyone here...

 

[Wazzz]

fluent in 5 languages and master in none

really you are derailing this thread quite horrendously

please get back on topic or get out

 

[Toady]

... The fuck does that mean ...
And first of all i'm form Belarus i only live in poland... What does it have to the topic?

I am also a html form, I submit myself via the post Method

 

[Skycraft]

... The fuck does that mean ...
And first of all i'm form Belarus i only live in poland... What does it have to the topic?
Skycraft... you don't help anyone here...

But I am helping, I am attempting to remove the problem which is you. Please stop making posts in this thread unless you are contributing to it.

If you want to keep arguing with Wazzz, do it through private messages.

 

[JokeMaster]

I made a contribution but i come to the idea everone on this forum is blind...

Aura/buff dependent race. The main builging could have a healing aura and the units themslef would loose health slowly, the aura would keep them alive, if they would leave the aura range they would loose health and die.

And I don't argue with wazz but he argues with me, just to clarify.

 

[Wazzz]

that's you arguing. about you arguing. that's just silly.

and yes you have been arguing with me, i proposed an idea, you argued with me.

you have got to be blind to be unable to see that :V

 

[JokeMaster]

Wazz why do you spam YOUR OWN thread.

 

[Wazzz]

i'm trying to get you to stop spamming it

you keep arguing with me on my thread, you continue to belittle the point of my thread, and yet you say we are in the wrong

ghostthruster said it best, you really are making a fool of yourself

anyway, vote or get out kthx

 

[JokeMaster]

You can't force me tho vote you're not my father. Beside don't command me. And i'm still waiting for the option none form above.

 

[Wazzz]

i'm not telling you to vote, i'm telling you to vote OR leave

you have an option

there is no 'none of the above' because that's a terrible contest theme idea

 

[JokeMaster]

So you are trying to force me like a moderator...
There should be none of above if someone dislikes all themes and wants another one.

 

[Wazzz]

which your 'poll' does not have

but i do believe that option is called 'not voting', which is closely followed by 'leaving'

really you're immaturity is amusing but persistent

you'd be better off talking about this on chat rather than spamming my thread

 

[JokeMaster]

Once again it's a public thread and not your private. And thats the reason i'm not voting. I saw nowhere a moderator aproving those themes.

 

[Wazzz]

and you saw somewhere a moderator approving your themes?

and i'm saying if you're not voting, then your presence is not needed. but you seem to lack any maturity or logical reasoning.

 

[Orcnet]

spellcaster sounds great

 

[Pharaoh_]

Wazzz,

I have been warning you in the past about avoidance of fuss creation. You constantly report, yet you always respond to the spam, which by extension creates additional spam. I don't see why you may support yourself, but others just can't.

Don't bring me up in your posts, as if I am aware of what you say and what you do, because I look like a supporter of those and I am not. All I did is telling you to create a discussion thread (which everyone can do in the Arena submission), I gave no "permission" that forces people to either vote on the poll or just get out of the discussion.

You have no right to tell someone to leave the thread, just because they propose old or boring ideas. One post or a series of reference posts as to why your themes are "more" appealing is enough. Keep arguments up, generic labels, such as "immature" won't actually justify your points.

While I have warned you again and again and while you discourage people with the selfish "my solution or get lost" and since you fancy bipolar solutions (black or white), either tone down or get blacklisted from the Arena. It's your choice.

 

[Wazzz]

That's the thing, I wasn't telling him to leave because of bringing up such ideas, I was telling him to leave for making problematic posts.

I do wonder who told you I was telling people to leave for that particular reason? In any case, it appears you were ill-informed.

I do agree that I shouldn't respond to spam with more spam, but I was simply telling jokemaster that he shouldn't make offtopic posts that aren't related to the thread again and again, which I'm sure you can understand.

Now, as for your comment saying 'my idea or get out', I never said that at all. I never proposed that either, I was proposing that we make themes actually suited to the contest. If you look through the thread enough, perhaps you will observe that only two of my suggestions are on the poll. All the others are suggestions from kari003.

When people came up with old themes that weren't suited to the contest, I didn't tell them to get out. I challenged them to come up with a theme that would, in turn, challenge the competitors.

I do suppose you would only be getting intel from those who were being problematic in this thread, so perhaps you don't see both sides, but I would suggest that if anyone is to be 'blacklisted' from the Arena, it should be Jokemaster, as he continued to derail this topic with his nonsensical spam.

Thankyou.

Additional: Blacklisting me from the Arena may be a mistake. After all, look at how popular my poll has been so far. Hopefully, I could bring more life to the techtree contest in future, if you allow me.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Now, as for your comment saying 'my idea or get out', I never said that at all.

i'm not telling you to vote, i'm telling you to vote OR leave

Yes, I'm sure you didn't.

My focus is on you at the moment, JokeMaster didn't just decide to get spammy, there was someone who provoked him.

Oh, and I am no longer willing to comment on every sentence of yours, you get all innocent and point fingers when I do.

That's just it.

 

[Wazzz]

Actually, he provoked me.

Allow me to explain my position. I am promoting the ideal of coming up with theme ideas that are suited to the techtree contest rather than theme ideas that would be better suited to an art contest.

Don't get me wrong, we have had fun with the old style of themes, but every contest gets to be the same. There isn't really a challenge to come up with something new within constraint. If there was, then the 'Innovation' theme would have had a much greater impact imo, considering most people would consider it a 'freestyle' theme.

Unfortunately, the only constraints have been what races we can choose, which is not challenging at all. The greatest challenge is in finding resources to put in with the race itself, which grants a certain advantage to those who can create these imports customly.

It seems a lot of people like the ideas in the poll, which one are you in favour of pharaoh_? ^^

 

[Pharaoh_]

Frankly? None, they all seem to revolve around gameplay, but they evoke issues of balance. Most of them rely on a specific mechanism that doesn't really allow flexibility (e.g. Swarm, Summoned, Spellcaster, Super unit).

The one that would bring the least predictable entries would be Nomad, but then again, it would cause a funk to the player, because this dimension that they have to constantly consider (no base) deviates from a stable and secure gameplay; not to mention that a good knowledge of coding would be highly demanded to avoid the default War3 limitations and make the engine know when to treat what as a temporary base.

 

[Wazzz]

ah balance issues, you say? that's all part of the challenge, after all ^^

for example, you will no doubt notice how various races obviously play differently to each other, at least in any good strategy game. and yet, there is a central balance.

take Starcraft 2 for example. This is a great example of an rts that implements 3 erratically different races in a somewhat balanced metagame (there are, of course, exploits for the super pros ).

The Terran would be able to fit in the Defensive theme quite easily. However, they do have the potential to strike hard and fast, they are just known as a Defensive race first and foremost :3

The Zerg would be able to come under the Swarm category, as well as the Central Builder/Structure theme, but once again, it's not all they're built for. It's just what they do best and they are known as a good Swarming/offensive race.

The Protoss have that Super Unit theme going for them with a unit like the Mothership, and they function pretty well, you just don't want to leave them alone for too long (perhaps like any other race, mind you )

As for the Nomad theme, you can potentially have a base within the constraints of the theme, it would just be mobile. You can also have no base at all, but the idea is that the race doesn't just settle down in one base and they can play mind games with the opponent. You know, the Night Elves could potentially fit into this category with their Ancients being able to uproot, only they're not really used in that regard so much because the buildings are slow. Nonetheless, the capability is there and you could draw on that sort of idea and expand on it ^^

As for Summoner and Spellcaster, it's hard to come up with examples because I can't think of any, but my god it would be fun to see what people can come up with in regards to those themes ^^

I hold no preference to any theme, I would like to see what people might come up with given the constraints though :3

Additional: my last submission was a nomad race and that didn't have much coding at all, only some basic code for getting the costs of the units working as well as some unrelated stuff, so it's more than doable :3

oh and for creating a unit when a dummy ability was cast

 

[Pharaoh_]

Can't you stick to that kind of replies for others as well? That's a good sample of what I mean. If they provoke/troll you, press the invisible "Ignore" button.