Techtree Contest #6 ~ Discussion

[Pharaoh_]

I'm in the mood of giving this a shot and people showed some interest for the upcoming Techtree Contest, so, do discuss!

A message to Wazzz: Since I can't open the map you sent me, write down what features could be taken advantage of and suggest the formation of the new theme.

A note to everyone: The Techtree sample map will include a custom race system, so that you don't do it by yourself.

 

[Wazzz]

Most of the races in the map itself followed the sort of 'generic' style of gameplay, there were a couple of key races that brought something really new to the game.

The Forsaken had a system where their Town Hall was a Command Node. In order to increase your tech, you had to get more Command Nodes. Pretty minor in comparison to some other features, but this was very interesting as the Command Nodes were very cheap.

The Pandaren had an interesting system based off the Sacrifice ability. You'd start off with Furbolg workers which you could train at the basic 'barracks' building into your starting melee unit. To get your tier 1.5 unit, you would get a Tuskarr Den to get Tuskarr workers, which would then train into your basic ranged unit. In Tier 2, you gained access to the Pandaren worker, which transitioned into your Artillery unit at the barracks.

You then had a caster building and a final building to produce more powerful units from the various worker units.


Finally, there was the Elementals, which you would get a shrine to water, earth, fire and wind. These produced one unit each. You would then get a vortex, and combine elements together from the buildings themselves to gain access to more units. After a while, the binding wears off on the vortex, and you have to set it to charge again.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Hm, those -interesting- details don't really suggest the theme.

 

[Wazzz]

oh, i also forgot to mention the map only uses ingame models

 

[Pharaoh_]

I realized that from the file's size. :]
We'll probably use that.

 

[Wraithling]

May I suggest that Techtree #6 be a 'quick-fire' edition? Say a contest length of one week + 1 weekend (9 days).

And I don't give a damn about arena rewards, I just want bragging rights >

 

[Mechanical Man]

A non-demon race

 

[Jazztastic]

Primitive theme

Every race would have to fight warfare without the use of firearms and the like. They would have to rely on beast power, shamanistic magic, or slightly more modern, like muskets, swords, and cavalry. Anyone could interpret the theme to any time period, as long as it was before the 20th century.

Of course whatever the race is it just basically wouldnt have modern firepower. Yes it could be nightelves or w/e as long as they dont have guns and lazers and tanks.

 

[Dionesiist]

Demon race, so it forces people to find different ways of tackling the whole demon idea. I'm probably joking.

 

[Malcous]

May I suggest that Techtree #6 be a 'quick-fire' edition? Say a contest length of one week + 1 weekend (9 days).

And I don't give a damn about arena rewards, I just want bragging rights >

9 days ? we needed 6 month for the last one

 

[Wraithling]

9 days ? we needed 6 month for the last one

Hey, I don't mind! Let's have a 2-in-1 compo!

Let's start both competitions at the same time. The 9-day contestants must submit after nine days of course, while the remaining contestants can carry on for the rest of the duration. After 5 months or so, the former group checks back just in time for the closing of the contest. At that time the organizer has to decide whether to give another 6 month extension. If so, then the contest continues, and the first group checks back in another 6 months. This idea is soooo foolproof that we need to start now. What are we waiting for anyway? We still discussing themes? D:

Then let me tally the themes suggested so far:

----------------------

Non-demon - 1 vote.
Mechanical Man

Primitive theme, no firearms - 1 vote.
Jazzztastic

Demons - 1 vote.
Dionesiist (probably joking)

OMG awesome systems! Forsaken system.. Pandaren system.. Elemental system.. blah blah.. - 1 vote.
Wazzz

Did I miss out anyone's suggestion? Pharaoh, you haven't suggested a theme, what's yours?

 

[Wazzz]

i think the problem i find we have with a lot of 'criticism' in these contests is that while it's not specified that it's necessary to create a 'complete' race (with 3-4 heroes, item shop, the works), people often make a big deal of races that don't have all these features.

Even when we did races themed on the campaign naga race there seemed to be a certain level of complaint.

Anywho, i don't know if we're actually doing a tally or a public vote, but i guess we'll see what happens when pharaoh_ decides

 

[Jazztastic]

i think the problem i find we have with a lot of 'criticism' in these contests is that while it's not specified that it's necessary to create a 'complete' race (with 3-4 heroes, item shop, the works), people often make a big deal of races that don't have all these features.

Even when we did races themed on the campaign naga race there seemed to be a certain level of complaint.

Anywho, i don't know if we're actually doing a tally or a public vote, but i guess we'll see what happens when pharaoh_ decides

Words of wisdom.

@Wraithling, I just don't think a 9-day techtree contest is desirable. People shouldn't be rushed when making their ideas, in ANY competition. At the same time there must be a deadline or it'll drag on into forever. I think that a reasonable deadline should be agreed upon beforehand, and there should be 0 extensions made. Punctuality is important.

 

[Wraithling]

Me is sad
but me understand y ppl no want 9 day contest.

Next time no more 6 months contest, yes?

 

[Wazzz]

we'll tighten things up with stricter deadlines, i'll instigate advertisement of this thread for now

better to advertise it before it's out, after all, and not have enough submissions by the due date

already started coming up with ideas for my race, i'm keen for things to move along asap

 

[Pharaoh_]

Ok, I was thinking (way before the previous contest was fired) that this one should bear the title of "Warcraft IV". Many years have passed and everyone is so familiar with the Warcraft III lore that it has been carved on our skins.

The point of this contest, in addition to the previous one, is to introduce new systems, new ways of collecting resources, new unit-types, anything. Imagine what new races would likely be in the 4th expansion of the Warcraft series. There are tons of discussions and speculations of features that would form the most desired -for this community- update of this game, so, let's see what contestants would want to create.

 

[Jazztastic]

Ok, I was thinking (way before the previous contest was fired) that this one should bear the title of "Warcraft IV". Many years have passed and everyone is so familiar with the Warcraft III lore that it has been carved on our skins.

The point of this contest, in addition to the previous one, is to introduce new systems, new ways of collecting resources, new unit-types, anything. Imagine what new races would likely be in the 4th expansion of the Warcraft series. There are tons of discussions and speculations of features that would form the most desired -for this community- update of this game, so, let's see what contestants would want to create.

Problem is, not everyone has knowledge of warcraft universe. I for one have only played 3, and never finished the campaign on TFT.

I like the idea though. Extrapolation.

 

[Wazzz]

imo this sounds like pretty much exactly what we're doing anyway

kind of like the innovation theme

they're things we should be expected to strive for

 

[Wraithling]

Mr. P_, could you kindly give us a rough idea on what the scoring criteria would be based on? Warcraft IV seems like a very broad theme.

 

[Wazzz]

i do wonder what people's opinions are on limiting the number of imports more heavily

i personally think 0 imports is a great number, BUT we could also limit it to a certain number of imports, or a much smaller filesize for the end result (500KB should be more than enough in plenty of cases)

it would inspire people to use what's ingame a lot more rather than relying on creating their own custom models or skins, or using a lot of resources fullstop

also, when can we get this contest up and running? i'm itching to get started

 

[Dionesiist]

I personally support the 0 imports idea because to be honest most custom resources don't really fit in-game. Apart from buildings, perhaps.

 

[Wraithling]

1. I'd also like to support 0 imports. If not I hope to see a very limited mapsize rule.

2. Can we please have more clarification on the theme?

 

[Pharaoh_]

Ok, first of all, I find no imports challenging, but let's face it, why put ourselves through this torment? Why should we force our submission with such a heavy limitation?

Secondly, you don't have to be familiar with the Warcraft III lore, at all; it won't help you for example, knowing that Orcs are the best enemies of the Humans in the very first events of the Warcraft III series. What I meant by Wacraft IV is to suggest totally new races and not variations of the current ones. A great source of inspiration is World of Wacraft for example: Taurens, Gnomes, Pandarens, Dwarves, Draenei, Worgen, Goblins, etc. Every one of these races exist in the settings of Warcraft universe. Anything except Humans, Undead, Orcs and Night Elves is acceptable.

 

[Wazzz]

limiting of race selection is worse than limiting of available resources

preventing people from importing external resources isn't torment in itself, and we could easily add a tab such as only 1 import allowed or whatever

limiting race selection is a little more difficult

perhaps the theme should touch lightly on the matter rather than have such a heavy influence?
i heard of one example, a Super Unit theme, in which contestants were to create a unit that had an incredibly important role within the race

something like that for the theme would be nice for a change

the restriction on imports was aimed more so at preventing people from creating large numbers of models and skins rather than focusing on the race itself (especially since it's unfair to those of us who can't model or skin for the public polls)

 

[Pharaoh_]

You should be thankful to people entering this kind of contest, when their main object of modding is skinning and/or modelling. You can't judge their ways of working and the areas they are focusing on and that's the reason why there are different levels of quality in every contest.
You think that heavy limitation is the theme I am proposing, yet your desired rule limits other modders from joining. What can we do, some people are far more creative in modelling and skinning, rather than in creating a race.

 

[Wazzz]

perhaps, but they have contests of their own in which they are free to compete if that is the case

in any case, my proposal seems to be popular among those who have commented on this thread

 

[Pharaoh_]

The reasons behind your proposal are nasty though. ;p
I didn't want to say this, but I will; even as an Arena moderator, I can't tell who's gonna compete in what contest. What gives you the right to decide that?

 

[Wazzz]

this is based on activity on this thread, and feedback to the general idea

after all, we are hear to promote creativity as far as creating a techtree goes
when people get hung up with imports, they tend to get a little too influenced by the model itself, a little too hung up about visuals

public polls often neglect the techtree itself and go straight for the visuals, which is a sad reality

with ingame resources only, perhaps the problem will be eliminated, and it will be fun to see what people come up with under these limitations :3

 

[Malcous]

I personally support the 0 imports idea because to be honest most custom resources don't really fit in-game. Apart from buildings, perhaps.

Agreed. Lets do this !

 

[Mechanical Man]

No imports was already done, I think it was first contest. Without unit imports it's bearable, but you have very little choice from buildings other than those from default 4 races, mixing racial buildings looks bad because of drastically different build animations, while many buildings have not appropriate animations, so you will end with more than half building models belonging to one of those 4 races. But even for units, most of the creeps are just same models resized, tinted or having recolored skin.

 

[Malcous]

No imports was already done, I think it was first contest. Without unit imports it's bearable, but you have very little choice from buildings other than those from default 4 races, mixing racial buildings looks bad because of drastically different build animations, while many buildings have not appropriate animations, so you will end with more than half building models belonging to one of those 4 races. But even for units, most of the creeps are just same models resized, tinted or having recolored skin.

You can also attach effects to buildings or use the graveyard ability to make it look like a new building , but you are right that would probably happen

 

[Wazzz]

are we forgetting that doodads can be used here as well?
besides which, the point seems to be getting missed entirely

it's to show that it's not about looking flashy (especially since there aren't actually building models for every possible race), it's about making a techtree to the best of your abilities

something a lot of people forget when it comes to public polls

 

[Jazztastic]

The idea of no imports is great. In fact, I'm all for it!

Because having the ability to make sweet models should not make you win a techtree contest. A good techtree should.

 

[boomwolf]

And that's why judges, who can ignore this fact, are the major deciding factor of who wins.

Going without imports limits you too hard, there is hardly room to make anything new and unique that way without resorting to either repetitive use of models, or an army with units that fit each other worse then the abomination fits his limbs...

The lack of models will make it bad, really bad. even WITH graveyard shenanigans the buildings will be limited, wont have build animations too often, and will mostly appear either like existing races, or nothing alike to each other.

Spells, while they can be triggered to make some unique stuff, will again be forced into using the same-old effects, as each "element" (or "sub-element" like life, death, etc) has a limited array of options.

We need imports, we need less time. and this time limit will again poke mostly at the graphic makers (models, animators, skinners, etc...) as that consumes much more time then simply looking for some model that generally fits your need.

 

[Wazzz]

that's kind of the point, it's to show that it doesn't really matter

of course, anyone opposing it aren't really thinking too much with their imaginations when they say you're limited in what you can do

they're only models, after all

as you said, judges would be able to make decisions for themselves, so why wouldn't they acknowledge the limitation when it comes to building animations and the likes?

 

[boomwolf]

Yes, they can, but still even if it does not matter how GOOD it looks, it does matter how well everything fits together, and aside of it, you cannot follow ideas if nothing in the wc3 database looks anywhere close to fit it.

While a limit (by total size i think might work better) would be good for squeezing people into more creative use of what's already there, a total blockage will mostly hamper the contest...

 

[Wazzz]

they've had total size limits before. it's never actually really been a limit.

 

[Mechanical Man]

It will fit together only if using buildings from one race. For example, using human barracks, temple of the damned and orc burrow will look ugly, if tinted or resized even uglier. And there are like only 1-2 additional buildings for each race which has build animation.

 

[Wazzz]

so? you can always use ones without build animations, if you're really desperate i'm sure you could trigger them to have some build animations

besides which, there still aren't all that many usable building models on the hive for the large majority of races, it's only really modellers and skinners who get to explore these areas better

so it's basically limiting the race choices for people who aren't modellers or skinners, which is really unfair for us

ergo, it would be great to show that it's not all about build animations and using imports to the max

i gurantee that if i used building models without build or death animations because there weren't any suiting the race i chose, i'd get crucified in comparison to someone who could actually skin or model

that's hardly fair on us

 

[boomwolf]

And that's way some sort of limit is in order, and a shorter time so people wont be able to afford tailoring models to their needs, but a complete lack WILL look bad, repetitive, unrelated and will leech on the base races too much to allow true originality...

Or, you want to stop makers to abuse their own creations? allow only imports uploaded to the site before the contest began, this way everyone has the same pool of models/skins/icon/etc to work with, making it fair for everyone.

 

[Wazzz]

perhaps something enabling people to get away with making only one hero without people complaining about the lack of heroes could be handy, too

pretty annoying how people seem to hone in on that when it's not even in the rules to make any more than one hero (has it even been in the rules to be obligated to make a single hero in the first place?)

 

[boomwolf]

You need to playable, balanced race-and as such it should logically follow the "4 heroes" path...otherwise it just in on par with the regular races, being played too differently, and pretty much impossible to balance properly...

At the very least we should allow basic imports, such as heroglow or minor edits (removing glow from regular heros, recolors, etc...)

 

[Mechanical Man]

You just can't use buildings without build animation, maybe can be fun at development, but when playing is very annoying. And triggers won't always work, especially for human buildings. And why would modelers or skinner be at advantage, will they model the whole race just for one little contest? Now you will say that expert triggerers have also an unfair advantage, because they can make better spells and systems?

 

[Wazzz]

spending too much time modelling and skinning for this contest rather than making a good, balanced race takes away too much from the contest itself

part of making a techtree function on a playable basis is trigger work

modelling and skinning is, and always will be, optional

 

[boomwolf]

I can make a full techtree with 0 triggers outside of the integration ones by simply giving the WE weird and original values to copies of regular units and spells (and you will be surprised how much you can achieve with nothing but negative numbers, awkward targeting and strange combinations of spells that automatically fire other spells rain of chaos style...)

It wont be as SPECIAL as a triggered one, and probably wont look that good, but it WILL work, and every ability will be unique enough to justify...



So, want to try a non-triggered competition? naturally not-because you are a triggering man. but I am not an artist and I say that I much prefer to HAVE custom art resources, unshackled or with some sort of "anti-cheat" system.

And I gave an example-just limit it to resources already ON HWS prior to contest start, that was you cant make things specifically for the contest, and the grounds are fair.