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Modelling Contest #25 - Ascension

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by Kyrbi0, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    It's not against the contest rules, but I am assuming that the judges will penalize you for not having a clear unit basis.
     
  2. Misha

    Misha

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    auh.. Oo you need to re-imagine an existing war3 unit as a hero, mate
     
  3. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    So I figured that it was about time I shared a work in progress image. I'm making a sort of druidic, autumn-based night elf archer hero. There's two screenshots(WIP) of her face, one of them with Barkskin activated:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  4. Mythic

    Mythic

    Media Manager

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    Whoa Deolrin that's awesome!
     
  5. JokeMaster

    JokeMaster

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    I've finaly finished my exams and passed them all :) now i have enough time to work again.
     
  6. knight26

    knight26

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    Deolrin, very impressive! It suits the night elves exactly how they were meant to be to begin with.
     
  7. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    Hmm nice looking entries. Keep the good work.

    to paladinjst: I think the entry is acceptable due to ambiguity but you'll obviously be hit pretty badly on Creativity rating when judging. You could, however, try to improve your current model by adding custom animations and nice effects. Normaly, those areas get more credits.

    To the rest of the participants. I strongly advice the use of custom animations. I'm not the kind of guy who gives much credits for using plain simple blizzard animations :ogre_hurrhurr:
     
  8. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    Now that's a bit unfair. I'm not confident enough in my animation skills to animate an organic unit(though I think I did pretty well with the few mechanical ones I animated), and I think using Blizzard's ingame animations in my case is entirely justified. My whole concept came from using a specific animation set and some specific WC3 models that I could modify, so I don't feel like it's fair to punish people like myself just because we can't animate well enough. The same should apply for ingame textures vs custom ones, and geomerges vs scratch models.
     
  9. JokeMaster

    JokeMaster

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    Id say modify some ingame animations modifying is always easier than making something from the beggining.
     
  10. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Easier isn't better.
     
  11. JokeMaster

    JokeMaster

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    Not always. If you make animations on your own but they look so dull like your character would have sticks inside his body then it is better to use some animations coming from the game and adjust them to your needs. Anyway that is my oppinion.
     
  12. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    Normaly people who mix in-game animations make a bit unconsistant blends and the animations don't fit the theme.

    A good example of using in-game animations is Whitedeath's shaman. He used the base animations of the beast master but he added others that blended well and fitted his model's theme to it. In that case it's okey if you use them, but remember that this is a modeling contest and model consistency earns credits. Normaly people who make models from scratch have very consistant models and it's where they get credits compared to model editers.

    If you are going to do edits, make sure to polish the edit pretty well. No unconsistant animations, good blending. Geomerges should appear without seams and connected perfectly to the rest of the mesh looks unified and not like a soup. Adding some scratch made meshes is also adviceable, as well as good unwrapping.

    About textures, I don't mind if somebody uses in-game textures and I won't be tought on textures since this is a modeling contest, not a texturing contest. The only thing that could really hit you by using in-game textures is consistency and color theory. If your model has inconsistant color blending, you'll lose credits. (look for color theory for more information about it).
     
  13. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    Yes, that sounds entirely justifiable and a lot more logical than just "minus points for Blizzard stuff, bonus points for custom stuff". I'm already working on a lot of what you said(seamless mesh, consistent animations, scratch-made augmentations such as her hair and bow), etc. Thanks for clarifying. :)
     
  14. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    It should be that way. It is a bit unfair that modelers who model fully from scratch have to compete with model editers under the same circunstances, since scratch modelling obviously takes more time and skill (sorry but it's true). Before when we had more people, we used to sepparate the contest for model editing and scratch modelling.

    Anyways, the standards I mentioned before is what I'll use to judge. So what I just said in the last paragraph is my personal opinion, not how I'll judge.
     
  15. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    Lies and slander. :(

    You also have to consider the facts that rarely any scratch-made models fits WC3 well. That is to say, map makers are more likely to use model edits than scratch-made models in their maps. There's also the fact that model-editors work with much more limited resources than scratch-modelers(they have to look up fitting textures, etc - whereas people who can texture can overcome all of that and just texture whatever they want). It takes a bit more 'ingenuity'\creativity\however you want to call it to find the proper in-game textures for your model, and use them well.
     
  16. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    You just gave me the reason. Scratch modelling is more difficult (well not really for animations, but you must know how to use IK systems). In model editing you use in-game textures if you can't texture, that's a skill. Finding a good in-game texture takes a lot less time than making a good texture from scratch. Geomerging is not hard it's just repeatitive boring if you want to keep the skinning correct.

    The reason why people use more model edits is simple: 95% of the models made for wc3 are model edits and of the scratch modelled only 15% were made by people who really knew how to use 3dsmax/gmax, the rest just tried.
     
  17. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    @paladinjst: Looking rather interesting. We certainly don't have a sword like that in Wc3 (so far), and BOOK SHOULDER PADS. However, as has been stated, try to be a little more clear on what Unit this Hero is 'derived' from; while Rui makes a good point (a point I've used many times for this contest to justify a cool idea), that you can sorta make any Hero and find a fitting Unit, it's entirely reasonable to assume that the Judges will stick to this theme & demand a pretty good explanation/rationalization of your choice. Just a warning. :p

    @Deolrin: Alright! Glad to see this fine lady coming out of the groves. I'm quite interested to see a model that has a mesh-based spell mechanic (i.e. using Barkskin actually changes her skin to bark. (... alright, now that I think about it, it's not that unheard of; Avatar: MK -> stone, Metamorphosis: DH -> demon, Chem Rage: GA -> purple... But still, very cool and not fully common)).

    Curious, though; whatever happened to that Furion-turned-Goblin-Tradeprince? :'<

    ~~~

    You guys bring up an age-old debate, and quite a pertinent one for this contest.

    For the purposes of this contest, then, I feel obligated to re-state the original Judging Criteria:
    The Judging Critera, Post1

    MESH The geometry of the model, the wire-frame that gives your model a physical form and silhouette. Does the shape look clean or deformed? Are all ends capped, are there any stray faces, etc? Clean, distinctive meshes graded highly; deformed or incomplete meshes graded poorly. 10 pts
    ANIMATIONS The movement of your model. The animations give your model life, character, a personality. Are these animations smooth or choppy; organic or puppet-like? Do the animations deform or clip parts of the mesh? Smooth, life-like anims graded highly; choppy or lifeless anims graded poorly. 10 pts
    TEXTURE/UV WRAP The skin, or texture of a model, expresses many important aspects of the character. Is the texture well made; is it blurry, does it have a pleasant color scheme, does it have detail, etc? Or, if In-Game textures were used, how well was it wrapped? Are there parts that are clipped, misaligned or stretched? Clean, effective textures graded highly; cluttered or haphazard textures graded poorly. 10 pts


    The "Rules" include the concept of using either In-Game, Custom, or Both. Then, paying special attention to the Animation section (but in all three), I must insist that there was no emphasis given to either In-Game or Custom animation (or anything, really), and that this was done quite specifically to even the odds. Therefore there is no basis for any judge (using the provided Criteria) to prefer Custom animations (or mesh, or textures, etc) over In-Game ones. As long as they are (as stated above) "smooth, life-like, clean, distinctive, effective, etc".

    Now that being said...

    ~~~

    I can understand BlinkBoy, in that it seems intuitive to say that custom-work is always harder/more advanced/more better-er :)P) than geomerging & using in-game textures/anims. However, working with many geomergers & the like, I have found that intuition is not entirely true. It's a different kind of work, sure, but they both have their pros & cons. You're points about geomerging (smooth, no edges, not "looking like soup") are absolutely correct, and (I would submit) apply equally to Geomergers as to "Scratchers".

    However, your comment here:
    raises an interesting point. If you're not going to be tough on textures because this isn't a texturing contest, then I don't understand how you can be tough on animations; this also isn't an animation contest. It's solely a modeling contest, so by definition, we should only be considering Meshes for judging.

    However, I think we can all agree that's an unnecessarily restricted viewpoint, and in reality, when it comes to "modeling", it's Mesh, Animations, and Textures that all come into play (don't forget Mechanics, SFX, and Creativity!). That is why, in fact, the Judging Criteria is written as it is; 10pts for each of the "main 3". They should all, ostensibly, be equally important.

    ~

    For the purposes of Wc3-modding, I can understand Deolrin's point; while scratch-meshes/anims/textures sometimes appear cooler/better/etc, in the end people tend to use models styled in the Wc3-fashion, which is most consistently achieved through the creative use of in-game assets (with edits, minor & major). This is done not only to preserve size (mesh & anim complexity, texture size, etc), but to preserve ever-important aesthetics in a map (tons of wc3 models fighting a high-poly Deathwing or whatevs just looks bad... We're not just talking WoW imports here, either :p) & to ensure that all the requisite Mechanical elements (footprints, collision spheres, lifebars, all the other dumb stuff) are intact, in Wc3-fashion.
    (For me personally, while I love a good custom mesh/anim/texture & really praise the artist, the models I really care about, and the ones I want to win, are the ones that fit in Wc3. With many "Scratchers", that is difficult to attain. (Such as, IMO, SuPa-'s excellent Abomination hero model.))

    However, I can't lie; while I seriously have love for Geomergers and there work (and have benefited greatly thereby, *wink wink, nudge nudge*), there's just something about a custom made model that really grabs & keeps my attention. It's hard to compare the work of a Geomerger to a Scratcher; it's like comparing apples & oranges. However, Scratchers just seem to command more attention. Again, I have to admit; seeing the same old animations applied again and again gets rather stale (*sigh* another Demon Hunter/Witch Doctor/Blademaster/Peasant/etc?). Seeing new & custom animations really blows me out of the water. That's just visceral, that's just 'first-impressions'. It can be harder to notice the work & artistry that goes into using In-Game resources resourcefully (lol) & effectively; it's something that has to be pointed out, sometimes.

    Anyway, I hope that clears things up from a Criteria perspective, as well as throws my opinion, as gasoline, on this potentially raging flame. :p Notice I have used the posted Judging Criteria rather heavily in my support of how this Contest should be run; If the Criteria does not work, please speak up now with what should be changed. The last thing any of us want is to come to the end of the contest & have this huge flame-war about "but the criteria said this, so I did that!". Let's all be mature.

    Keep it up!
     
  18. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    BlinkBoy, you must see sense. I've heard this come from several modders in the past, including Kyrbi0 and Linaze. "Geomerges"(outdated term, as there are many more techniques than just mashing together a bunch of geosets nowadays) or model edits are more popular because they FIT into the Warcraft universe. Clever use of in-game textures ensures that your unit doesn't look like any of its "components"(The units and textures used in creating it), but it fits into the rest of the game seamlessly and doesn't look out of place.
    Meanwhile, in order to get your scratch-made model to fit the game, you'd have to work really hard on copying Blizzard's style, both in modeling and in texturing. One of the few people whom I believe can execute this perfectly is A.R. Very few other modelers are capable of such feats.
    This is why so many modders use model edits rather than scratch made models - they want their game to look consistent, and not a mix of Crysis, Dead Space 2, World of Warcraft and Warcraft III.

    ...Also, it's funny how you only listed 3DS Max and GMax. I've made this, this and this with Milkshape(among other things, but these three really stand out to me on a personal level - granted, most of that comes from the custom textures, which I didn't make, but still...) and I can honestly say that I think I've done a decent job - both at making a model in general and making it fit into WC3.

    Finally, I must say that I personally believe that several model-edits are of higher quality(in how they look like and how they act in-game) than several scratch-made models, even among "renowned" and skilled artists on the Hive. Frankster's works are a great example of model edits that can rival many scratch-made models made by other people.

    In other words, don't be racist! A model's a model, whether scratch-made or not, and it should be judged just as fairly. :(

    Will do it after the contest. I had a sudden spurt of inspiration to work on the night elf, and I still think making a hero of a building is silly. :p

    <3
     
  19. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    *sniff* Well, the Goblin Merchant, while technically a Building, does have a little Goblin dude (Unit) scurrying around the catwalks in one animations... So that counts?... :< :p
    Cool.

    Glad to hear I made some sense. Tried to speak authoritatively before I gave my opinions. Sorry if I slighted you in the past, though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  20. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    For the record, I removed that silly little tidbit because I basically agree with everything you said, so it doesn't really make sense. :p

    EDIT: I'd also like to note that I've written most of my post before I saw you posted yours, and only added the two quotes later.