Mini-Mapping Contest #19 - Boss Fight

[Frotty]

You got it all wrong. Having a deadline postponed helps everyone (yes, even YOU, who are not finished). You don't know what everyone else is up to, to judge their lack of time as "poor project and time management". Some of us are lucky to have free time, some aren't (work, kids, holidays, or whatever the reason).

"You got it all wrong" - nice way to dismiss coke's valid feedback with a logical fallacy that you don't explain.
I think it is perfectly understandable that it's discouraging for people who invested a lot time and managed their time properly to stay within deadline, to have their work invalidated because of other contestants who managed their time badly and now got an extension.
Whether or not the contest is "just for fun" doesn't affect the validity of coke's argument - otherwise why have a contest at all?
The number of contestants is already abysmal. Bad organization and screwing over contestants won't make this better.

 

[Mr Ogre man]

"You got it all wrong" - nice way to dismiss coke's valid feedback with a logical fallacy that you don't explain.
I think it is perfectly understandable that it's discouraging for people who invested a lot time and managed their time properly to stay within deadline, to have their work invalidated because of other contestants who managed their time badly and now got an extension.
Whether or not the contest is "just for fun" doesn't affect the validity of coke's argument - otherwise why have a contest at all?
The number of contestants is already abysmal. Bad organization and screwing over contestants won't make this better.

I explained it right in the next sentence.
I was the first to propose extending the deadline of the HD model contest. I was also the first one to finish, way before the deadline was met. Thanks to adding an extension, we got 5 models instead of two, because people have irl problems and sometimes the time given is too short.
Even he hasn't finished yet, ffs. I've seen what he's up to, and I want him to finish 100%.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

I think you all are taking it a bit too seriously and being overly dramatic. It's a game, chill out. The time is not lost and work is not invalidated. There was plenty of time to protest an extension, especially considering I mentioned it in a previous post a long time ago. Besides, extensions is a well established thing in Hive contests so I'm perplexed as to how it comes as such a huge shock/surprise.

Since I'm the only remaining participant I can safely say that I won't need as much as two weeks. I'll probably need the weekend, and can submit my entry on the upcoming Sunday. I suggest @Cokemonkey11 also spend this time wisely by doing some QA.

 

[lolreported]

Personally I like contests like these and would've like to participate in more, but the reason I'm not is because the deadlines are always so short.
A month to complete a contest map is difficult to manage time wise, for me atleast.

If a contest must be extended every time because it's an "established" thing to do, why not have the deadline longer initially? Maybe more will join, instead of being demotivated and stressed, feeling they have no chance completing something before the deadline.
Then instead of constant extensions, the rules could instead be stricter for no extensions and you'll know how much time you actually have to work with.

Also, I saw this thread a week after it's been started. I think more contest marketing would be a good idea as well.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Personally I like contests like these and would've like to participate in more, but the reason I'm not is because the deadlines are always so short.
A month to complete a contest map is difficult to manage time wise, for me atleast.

If a contest must be extended every time because it's an "established" thing to do, why not have the deadline longer initially? Maybe more will join, instead of being demotivated and stressed, feeling they have no chance completing something before the deadline.
Then instead of constant extensions, the rules could instead be stricter for no extensions and you'll know how much time you actually have to work with.

Also, I saw this thread a week after it's been started. I think more contest marketing would be a good idea as well.

I agree, deadlines could be longer, but there's also the issue of how much time people are willing to put down for a contest map. If a contest spans over, say, 2 or 3 months people may be put off due to being unable to commit for that long. The other issue is that even with longer times there will still be people who can't complete within the deadline, and the same issue will arise. I guess it's about finding a balance, but as @Ralle already put it, these contests exists to have fun, learn stuff and to incentivize community engagement. In my eyes they aren't made to be taken dead serious. When there's drama, people are raging and the whole contest thread turns into a discussion with accusations and whatnot the whole point of the contest disappears.

I believe I did post the contest a couple of times in Discord, but I agree, it could have been marketed better. I'll remember it till next time, and will definitely post a message on your wall.

 

[lolreported]

I agree, deadlines could be longer, but there's also the issue of how much time people are willing to put down for a contest map. If a contest spans over, say, 2 or 3 months people may be put off due to being unable to commit for that long. The other issue is that even with longer times there will still be people who can't complete within the deadline, and the same issue will arise. I guess it's about finding a balance, but as @Ralle already put it, these contests exists to have fun, learn stuff and to incentivize community engagement. In my eyes they aren't made to be taken dead serious. When there's drama, people are raging and the whole contest thread turns into a discussion with accusations and whatnot the whole point of the contest disappears.

I believe I did post the contest a couple of times in Discord, but I agree, it could have been marketed better. I'll remember it till next time, and will definitely post a message on your wall.

Why would participants have to commit for the entire duration of the contest? If someone is finished and satisfied before the deadline they could just wait until it's over or spend a day or two in between for some fine tuning if they're up for it.
I don't think participants should have it as a goal to release their map on the last day and with a longer deadline it's easier to manage the time.

I agree that some might not be able to complete a map within a 2 or 3 months period, but it's a lot more time than a single month and having to gamble and hope for extensions.

Contests are for fun yes, but if barely anyone is participating for reasons, is that really fun? The more who can participate, the better.

Regarding the marketing I wasn't referring to notifying individuals, but having the staff marketing the contests better. Front page, @mentions in Discord, etc.

 

[deepstrasz]

If a contest must be extended every time because it's an "established" thing to do, why not have the deadline longer initially? Maybe more will join, instead of being demotivated and stressed, feeling they have no chance completing something before the deadline.
Then instead of constant extensions, the rules could instead be stricter for no extensions and you'll know how much time you actually have to work with.

@Kyrbi0 @Heinvers get in here.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Why would participants have to commit for the entire duration of the contest? If someone is finished and satisfied before the deadline they could just wait until it's over or spend a day or two in between for some fine tuning if they're up for it.

Because a person who can only commit for 2-3 weeks would be heavily disadvantaged as opposed to a person who can commit for a full 3 months. For people with good enough knowledge about modding the person who actively develops his map over 3 months will win any day against a person who developed his for 3 weeks, so some kind of balance in terms of deadlines needs to be in place.

I don't think participants should have it as a goal to release their map on the last day and with a longer deadline it's easier to manage the time.

Sometimes you need every last second you can get, but people should generally try to stay within the deadline yeah.

but it's a lot more time than a single month

A month is indeed very short.

Contests are for fun yes, but if barely anyone is participating for reasons, is that really fun? The more who can participate, the better.

I agree, my argument was rather pointed towards the general disagreements and drama that occurs in a lot of contests and how people take things too seriously.

Regarding the marketing I wasn't referring to notifying individuals, but having the staff marketing the contests better. Front page, @mentions in Discord, etc.

That's @Riki's department.

 

[deepstrasz]

From what you guys wrote I can think of some theoretical solutions.

Depending on the contest type and the necessary time it would require, you could vote in the beginning how much time the contest should last.
Then, if an extension is necessary, you should vote for it as well. I suggest no more than one extension.

There are many factors involved in the making of a resource the proper way. People might slack if there's too much time given and then ask for an extension. Some people might not have enough time and ask for an extension. And then there are those who will find the time and finish their stuff in time. I call for a democratic vote as mentioned above in any case. The ideal way is to all agree from the start how the contest should play out.

 

[lolreported]

Because a person who can only commit for 2-3 weeks would be heavily disadvantaged as opposed to a person who can commit for a full 3 months. For people with good enough knowledge about modding the person who actively develops his map over 3 months will win any day against a person who developed his for 3 weeks, so some kind of balance in terms of deadlines needs to be in place.

Sure, I get your point, but I could make a garbage map in 3 months compared to someone making one in only 2 weeks. It's quality over quantity.

From what you guys wrote I can think of some theoretical solutions.

Depending on the contest type and the necessary time it would require, you could vote in the beginning how much time the contest should last.
Then, if an extension is necessary, you should vote for it as well. I suggest no more than one extension.

There are many factors involved in the making of a resource the proper way. People might slack if there's too much time given and then ask for an extension. Some people might not have enough time and ask for an extension. And then there are those who will find the time and finish their stuff in time. I call for a democratic vote as mentioned above in any case. The ideal way is to all agree from the start how the contest should play out.

Sounds like a good idea!

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Sure, I get your point, but I could make a garbage map in 3 months compared to someone making one in only 2 weeks. It's quality over quantity.

That's why I included a mention about people with good knowledge of modding. People who are good at modding probably won't produce garbage in 3 months.

 

[deepstrasz]

Ah, also want to mention that voting should be of course moderated by a staff user (you knew that already) in the sense that you won't have too many options to vote on otherwise you'd not get a proper vote count.

Bad example:

• FeelsGoodMan wants 2 months with 1 extension.
• lolreported wants 1 and a half month with 1 extension.
• Cokemonkey11 wants 1 month with no extensions.
• deepstrasz just wants the contest to start already.

Then we get 3 voting options and because contestants are just those 4 you get 1 vote for the first, 1 for the second and 2 votes for the last (or 2 votes for any of the options because deepstrasz doesn't care). 2 votes over 1 isn't too democratic or at least not too scientific.

Good example:

• FeelsGoodMan wants 2 months with 1 extension.
• lolreported wants 1 and a half month with 1 extension.
• Cokemonkey11 wants 1 month with no extensions.
• deepstrasz just wants the contest to start already.

Riki or whoever is in charge of the contest evaluates the options and suggests two voting options (or more but not many, maybe not more than 3? if the number of contestants is high enough):

1. 2 months with no extension.
2. 1 month with extension.

Of course, the extension has to be voted on by all contestants.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Ah, also want to mention that voting should be of course moderated by a staff user (you knew that already) in the sense that you won't have too many options to vote on otherwise you'd not get a proper vote count.

Bad example:

• FeelsGoodMan wants 2 months with 1 extension.
• lolreported wants 1 and a half month with 1 extension.
• Cokemonkey11 wants 1 month with no extensions.
• deepstrasz just wants the contest to start already.

Then we get 3 voting options and because contestants are just those 4 you get 1 vote for the first, 1 for the second and 2 votes for the last (or 2 votes for any of the options because deepstrasz doesn't care). 2 votes over 1 isn't too democratic or at least not too scientific.

Good example:

• FeelsGoodMan wants 2 months with 1 extension.
• lolreported wants 1 and a half month with 1 extension.
• Cokemonkey11 wants 1 month with no extensions.
• deepstrasz just wants the contest to start already.

Riki or whoever is in charge of the contest evaluates the options and suggests two voting options (or more but not many, maybe not more than 3? if the number of contestants is high enough):

1. 2 months with no extension.
2. 1 month with extension.

Of course, the extension has to be voted on by all contestants.

Voting will work just fine, it's just an issue for the people who aren't attending from the get-go. We could say screw them and decide that the ones who attend from the beginning are the ones who gets to vote.

Having clearly defined guidelines for how to handle deadlines and extensions is definitely better than how we have it today though, so I'm all for an initial vote.

 

[deepstrasz]

Voting will work just fine, it's just an issue for the people who aren't attending from the get-go. We could say screw them and decide that the ones who attend from the beginning are the ones who gets to vote.

It will get crazy to vote on every new contestant's proposal once the contest has started so yeah, preferable it will be for the contest to work on initial contestant voting and then call voting for any major change like extensions.

 

[Ralle]

We are talking about this internally too. Good suggestions guys.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Here's my entry. I had to upload it to Mediafire since Cloudflare doesn't allow uploads over 100mb. If @Ralle would be so kind as to download it and attach it to this thread I will be grateful. (Comment by Ralle) The map is a two-part zip uploaded to bypass CloudFlare max filesize restrictions. Both files are needed for a succesful extraction.

Boss fight #1 is lacking as I didn't really have time to implement more spells, tactics and features. I was also gonna make more spells for the hero, with a customize function and UI for it. Guess I scrapped that since people got pissy.

I took the liberty of adding a "tutorial" zone, I hope that doesn't break this rule (technically I didn't change any existing terrain, I only added extra stuff which doesn't affect the boss fights in any way);

You are not allowed to make major changes to the layout or terrain. Changes to map-included mechanics is allowed.

Now if @Cokemonkey11 wants to spend the already approved 2 week extension on improving his map I won't mind. If he wants to close the contest at the initial deadline (Friday 8th) I won't mind that either. I'm sure @Riki will allow it despite an extension being approved, since we're only 2 participants.

Watch this video only if you can't figure out how to beat the bosses;

Spoiler

 

[Cokemonkey11]

Okay, I can be done too

Is @WinterSnow or @Leods joining?

 

[Riki]

Alright guys, this incident has opened up some discussions that could lead to some changes regarding the way we will have extensions from now on.

Beyond what has happened, in my opinion some changes were necessary for this. The final decisions will be made known to you and added to the general rules of the arena.

Now regarding this contest, @WinterSnow what is your progress here?

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Now regarding this contest, @WinterSnow what is your progress here?

He was last online the 27th of September, so I think we can safely assume he won't be participating.

 

[Riki]

He was last online the 27th of September, so I think we can safely assume he won't be participating.

Right, we should give him 1 more day to see if he appears, otherwise @FeelsGoodMan and @Cokemonkey11 if you agree we will close the contest.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

BTW to comply with open source requirement (also, all of my maps are open source), here is map code: Bitbucket

And here is all commits in case you're curious when I was working on project Bitbucket

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

@WinterSnow I see you reacted to some of my posts, are you still going to complete the contest? Technically the contest has been extended for 2 weeks, but if you're not participating then I see no reason to keep the contest open until that.

 

[WinterSnow]

Ok wow so this thread was busy this week.

So the extension is already approved and because my submission is incomplete (still need to work on the 2nd phase and test) naturally I support this. Still, there should've been a vote or at least a discussion about it first because it seems like FeelsGoodMan simply asked for it then got the extension approved like an hour afterwards.

I haven't tried out the other submissions but it seems pretty clear to me that more time and effort has been put in them than what I could possibly do for mine. I mean:

2361 lines of wurst

and

Almost done with one boss, and also finished some hero abilities. There will be more abilities, more tactics and still a lot of bugs that needs to be fixed, but things are starting to take shape.

while I'm just messing around with GUI.

So if everybody just wants to get this contest over with I'm not going to stress about it. I can just upload my map after the contest has ended.

He was last online the 27th of September, so I think we can safely assume he won't be participating.

I mean my world editor can work just fine without being logged in on hive.

@WinterSnow I see you reacted to some of my posts, are you still going to complete the contest? Technically the contest has been extended for 2 weeks, but if you're not participating then I see no reason to keep the contest open until that.

Yes I can submit my entry by the 18th.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

I have lost many contests to people who only know how to use GUI, don't think about it

Best of luck! @FeelsGoodMan feel free to update your map for the official deadline, it is pointless to stop just because my time is limited.

If i knew that we would have a third entry with the extension i would never have objected

Maybe @Leods also will try to whip something up

And i bet we could convince @Kyrbi0 too if we all collectively beg him to join

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

So if everybody just wants to get this contest over with I'm not going to stress about it.

Personally I don't really care. My personal opinion is that the more entries we have the better, but not everyone may share the same sentiment.

I mean my world editor can work just fine without being logged in on hive.

Sure, it's just that you didn't see that the extension was approved (since it was approved after your last online date at the time), and now it's already past the initial due date so I thought you weren't participating.

Yes I can submit my entry by the 18th.

Coolio, let's see what the other people says.

Also don't worry about how much work has been put into the other entries, participate for fun and to improve your skills!

EDIT:

Best of luck! @FeelsGoodMan feel free to update your map for the official deadline, it is pointless to stop just because my time is limited.

At this point I'm finished and have submitted my entry and consider myself done with this contest, so I won't change it at this point. The only thing that remains for me now is to see how the rest of it plays out.

 

[Leods]

I have lost many contests to people who only know how to use GUI, don't think about it

Best of luck! @FeelsGoodMan feel free to update your map for the official deadline, it is pointless to stop just because my time is limited.

If i knew that we would have a third entry with the extension i would never have objected

Maybe @Leods also will try to whip something up

And i bet we could convince @Kyrbi0 too if we all collectively beg him to join

Sadly not, I wasn't able to get any time for this. Anyway, I might use the template of @FeelsGoodMan someday, not for a contest but rather for a complete map, so it might be possible to see my original view for the bosses of this contest and template someday

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

@WinterSnow How are you coming along? 3 days left!

 

[WinterSnow]

My submission's mostly done right now. Except for fixing bugs all that's left to do is slap some cinematics in then it'll be finished.


EDIT: Alright, alright I've finished it. Hope it's as fun to play as it was to make. Enjoy!

 

[Riki]

On the subject of extensions, some new changes have been implemented, you can see them in the Arena - Rules And Guide, in the Extension section. This will apply to future contests from now on.

Mini-Mapping Contest #19 - Poll

Archived.